Alone in the Game

[Knight_Light]

Need more of these in the NBA

 

[Crazyhole]

It’s not offensive but it lets me know the type of person you are by your use of the word.

If you knew any special-needs children (as I do with my nephew) and the type of hurt that word conveys then you wouldn’t use it as you do. Perhaps you use it for the shock value, I don’t know.

Maybe I am being overly cautious due to personal circumstances. Sorry if that is the case.

The type of person I am? Like the kind of person who coaches a special Olympics basketball team? Believe me, I understand the struggles of working with disabled people.

I'm no more of a person that someone who is gay, black, retarded, disabled, elderly, orphaned, or whatever. People are people and everyone has value. Dont patronize me because I'm not afraid to use a term like retarded as a descriptor. It's no more offensive than saying fat, short, tall, skinny, red headed, or hairy.

And for the record, every kid I work with or have ever known that is retarded or has downs could care less about that term. Treat them like you would treat anybody else and they don't care how you describe them.

 

[fried-chicken]

The type of person I am? Like the kind of person who coaches a special Olympics basketball team? Believe me, I understand the struggles of working with disabled people.

I'm no more of a person that someone who is gay, black, retarded, disabled, elderly, orphaned, or whatever. People are people and everyone has value. Dont patronize me because I'm not afraid to use a term like retarded as a descriptor. It's no more offensive than saying fat, short, tall, skinny, red headed, or hairy.

And for the record, every kid I work with or have ever known that is retarded or has downs could care less about that term. Treat them like you would treat anybody else and they don't care how you describe them.

a special Olympics coach calling his players retarded.

 

[crambone]

a special Olympics coach calling his players retarded.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[bqknight]

People with down syndrome make up less than 1% of the population. Stands to reason that they would have less than 1% representation in any field. Homosexuals make up about 2% of the population. Stands to reason that they would have about the same level of representation in professional sports. That assumes that all things are equal, which they aren't. Women make up 51% of the population, so why don't we have half of all professional athletes being Women? You re making an argument based on equality of results which doesn't exist outside of fairytale land.

The point is going completely over your head. It's not about having more gay people in sports, they are already there. It's about letting them be themselves while playing sports.

There are about 1700 people on active NFL rosters, there are 0 openly gay people. 620 NHL players. 750 MLB players. 420 NBA. Let's throw in MLS, around 400.

There has been 1 openly gay ACTIVE player in all of those leagues.

There obviously must be some sort of barrier that is holding the gay men from coming out. You claim that there is none but there is. Anyone who comes out after the fact tells you that.

 

[UCFWayne]

People with down syndrome make up less than 1% of the population. Stands to reason that they would have less than 1% representation in any field. Homosexuals make up about 2% of the population. Stands to reason that they would have about the same level of representation in professional sports. That assumes that all things are equal, which they aren't. Women make up 51% of the population, so why don't we have half of all professional athletes being Women? You re making an argument based on equality of results which doesn't exist outside of fairytale land.

this is common sense stuff. the problem is common sense doesnt exist anymore.

 

[bqknight]

this is common sense stuff. the problem is common sense doesnt exist anymore.

No Wayne, it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say. See my last post. I'm not saying more gay people should play sports. I'm saying the gay people who do ALREADY play sports should be able to be their gay selves. They should be able to go to award shows and community events with their partner.

How is this so lost on people? All this proves is why gay people continue to "fight for equality". Sure, we've come a LOOOONG way but there's still plenty of room for more acceptance.

 

[UCFWayne]

The point is going completely over your head. It's not about having more gay people in sports, they are already there. It's about letting them be themselves while playing sports.

There are about 1700 people on active NFL rosters, there are 0 openly gay people. 620 NHL players. 750 MLB players. 420 NBA. Let's throw in MLS, around 400.

There has been 1 openly gay ACTIVE player in all of those leagues.

There obviously must be some sort of barrier that is holding the gay men from coming out. You claim that there is none but there is. Anyone who comes out after the fact tells you that.

what about the gay players that simply dont want the public to know? ive seen several interviews with former players that knew of a gay player on the team. the whole team knew. the player just simply didnt want to come out to the public and wanted to keep it to themselves.

 

[bqknight]

what about the gay players that simply dont want the public to know? ive seen several interviews with former players that knew of a gay player on the team. the whole team knew. the player just simply didnt want to come out to the public and wanted to keep it to themselves.

THAT'S THE POINT. They don't want the public to know because they are afraid. What might happen to their career? How might the public view them?

The ONLY reason someone wouldn't want them to know that about them is because they are afraid. I'm not saying you have to go shout it to the world but you should be able to go to an event with your partner.

 

[UCFKnight85]

I had a friend on my HS baseball team tell me he was gay (and a few others) but didn’t “come out” since he was afraid of what some of the assholes we had would say or do.

I felt bad for him. Especially when these assholes were slinging around “fag got jokes” openly.

 

[UCFWayne]

THAT'S THE POINT. They don't want the public to know because they are afraid. What might happen to their career? How might the public view them?

The ONLY reason someone wouldn't want them to know that about them is because they are afraid. I'm not saying you have to go shout it to the world but you should be able to go to an event with your partner.

what if they dont want the public to know because they are private people? not everyone wants the world to know.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

THAT'S THE POINT. They don't want the public to know because they are afraid. What might happen to their career? How might the public view them?

The ONLY reason someone wouldn't want them to know that about them is because they are afraid. I'm not saying you have to go shout it to the world but you should be able to go to an event with your partner.

Sure some may think that but how do you know it's all of them? You can't be so absolute in an argument unless you have polled and spoken with every closeted professional player. If their teammates and friends know maybe they just don't want it to be public and end up being a show pony for LGBT activists like Sam was turned into.

 

[bqknight]

what if they dont want the public to know because they are private people? not everyone wants the world to know.

Let's for a minute go with that, they just didn't want the world to know because they are private people. (FYI - interesting profession to go into if you're such a private person).

Do you think that ALL the gay people in sports just happen to feel this way? Every single one is just a private person and don't want to live openly?

K.

 

[bqknight]

Sure some may think that but how do you know it's all of them? You can't be so absolute in an argument unless you have polled and spoken with every closeted professional player. If their teammates and friends know maybe they just don't want it to be public and end up being a show pony for LGBT activists like Sam was turned into.

I don't. I'm not at all saying that everyone should come out either. Coming out is a personal choice. I'm saying that they should feel okay too if they want to and they most definitely don't now. Anyone who comes out post-career says so.

I get what you're saying about being turned into a show pony too. I wish that wouldn't happen either if they didn't want it to.

 

[UCFWayne]

Let's for a minute go with that, they just didn't want the world to know because they are private people. (FYI - interesting profession to go into if you're such a private person).

Do you think that ALL the gay people in sports just happen to feel this way? Every single one is just a private person and don't want to live openly?

K.

i think its possible. bob mentioned the dog/pony show. i think its possible the players know if they were to come out that would happen. maybe they just dont want to go through that. i think its more likely they would rather focus on them being a player than "the gay player"

 

[bqknight]

i think its possible. bob mentioned the dog/pony show. i think its possible the players know if they were to come out that would happen. maybe they just dont want to go through that. i think its more likely they would rather focus on them being a player than "the gay player"

I don't doubt for a second that has something to do with it for some people. That's part of what I am saying though. A LGBT player should be able to be him/herself.

You're also blind if you don't think there is a fear of what it will do to their career. How people will react.

Hell, I have a SUPER supportive/liberal family and coming out for me was one of the scariest things I have had to do.

Considering people still use the, "the gay dude will look at my dick in the shower" line constantly, yeah, I'd be pretty afraid being an athlete too.

 

[1ofTheseKnights]

Chime in to say that its not the guy on his couch who gets annoyed and eye roll with the in your face LGBTQZ+-~* stuff that needs the lecture on why they can't come out as gay during their playing career, its the other players in the locker room, like Chris Culliver who "can't be with that sweet stuff"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...lliver-wouldnt-accept-openly-gay-49ers-player

 

[btbones]

I’m agreeing with BQ on the reason we have no openly gay players . It’s fear plain and simple .

 

[Happy Hands]

I'll give you Bryce Harper. No straight man could ever keep a coif that tight. I'm actually pretty sure Bryce Harper wants to have sex with Bryce Harper.

 

[bqknight]

I'll give you Bryce Harper. No straight man could ever keep a coif that tight. I'm actually pretty sure Bryce Harper wants to have sex with Bryce Harper.

Yes please.

 

[UCFWayne]

Chime in to say that its not the guy on his couch who gets annoyed and eye roll with the in your face LGBTQZ+-~* stuff that needs the lecture on why they can't come out as gay during their playing career, its the other players in the locker room, like Chris Culliver who "can't be with that sweet stuff"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...lliver-wouldnt-accept-openly-gay-49ers-player

i think you are right. its more of the players in the locker room than the guys on the couch or stands

 

[bqknight]

i think you are right. its more of the players in the locker room than the guys on the couch or stands

I think it's both.

Hell...even the most liberal of people - Hollywood - still has a bunch of closeted people because many agents and companies strongly warn them about coming out.

 

[sk8knight]

I think it's both.

Hell...even the most liberal of people - Hollywood - still has a bunch of closeted people because many agents and companies strongly warn them about coming out.

That’s more branding and sales target demo than external pressure due to bigotry though.

 

[bqknight]

That’s more branding and sales target demo than external pressure due to bigotry though.

Sure. That’s part of it though. As an athlete, you are your biggest brand. The fear of hurting your brand is a pretty scary thing.

 

[Happy Hands]

I think it's both.

Hell...even the most liberal of people - Hollywood - still has a bunch of closeted people because many agents and companies strongly warn them about coming out.

Hollywood needs a gay action hero movie. Not an action hero who just happens to bang other dudes, but one of those flamboyant karaoke night at the Atlanta gay bar dudes. That could be thoroughly entertaining.

 

[Crazyhole]

a special Olympics coach calling his players retarded.

There's a difference between calling someone a retard and describing them as retarded. Just like there's a difference between calling someone a ****** and describing them as gay.

I would assume BQ has no problem in being referred to as gay but would definitely not like someone calling him a ******.

I get the fact that speech policing is a pretty big hobby for some people, but it would at least be nice if you people could recognize the difference between a slur and a descriptor.

 

[UCFBS]

re·tard·ed
rəˈtärdəd/
adjective

1. dated offensive
   less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age.
   • informal offensive
     very foolish or stupid.
     "in retrospect, it was a totally retarded idea"

re·tar·da·tion
ˌrēˌtärˈdāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. the action of delaying or slowing the progress or development of something.
   "the goals of treatment include retardation of disease progression"

 

[UCFBS]

You're right, no one should care. However, that isn't the reality. In a perfect world, "coming out" wouldn't be a thing. We're a LONG, LONG way from that though.

Forcing others to 'come out' is what I take issue with. Not everyone wants to be a topic of debate for the US media, they just want their privacy. It has nothing to do with 'hiding' it, but just living their lives.

It shouldn't be someone else's choice to discuss my lifestyle or privacy.

In today's world though, it's inspirational. It shows young gay kids that it's okay to be gay and play professional sports. Anyone who comes out post-career make it very clear that there's a culture of it not being okay.

Again, I think we're seeing that 'retire' with earlier generations. Virtually no one outside the US media cares. Definitely not Gen-X'ers, and even Boomers are more limited.

By having professional athletes come out, they can truly be themselves. It shows the athletes growing up that if I were to play sports, I could bring my significant other to events. I can talk about them like I'm sure straight guys talk about their wives and girlfriends.
It matters because it normalizes it.

I'm fine if people want to make a big deal about themselves. What I have a problem with is when people ask and other people expose things about others. It's someone else using their life for an agenda.

One of these days we'll get back to respecting Privacy. Until then, echos of Richard Jewel are only getting louder, and more people oblivious.

 

[bqknight]

Forcing others to 'come out' is what I take issue with. Not everyone wants to be a topic of debate for the US media, they just want their privacy. It has nothing to do with 'hiding' it, but just living their lives.

It shouldn't be someone else's choice to discuss my lifestyle or privacy.

Again, I think we're seeing that 'retire' with earlier generations. Virtually no one outside the US media cares. Definitely not Gen-X'ers, and even Boomers are more limited.

I'm fine if people want to make a big deal about themselves. What I have a problem with is when people ask and other people expose things about others. It's someone else using their life for an agenda.

One of these days we'll get back to respecting Privacy. Until then, echos of Richard Jewel are only getting louder, and more people oblivious.

Like I pointed out many times in this thread, I do not want to force anyone to come out. I want the people who want to come out (but don't due to fear of either the media circus, their fans or their teammates) to be able to to.

I find it very interesting that a bunch of people in here are trying to tell me, the only gay dude on here, how gays are viewed. You keep claiming no one cares.

I have had friends kicked out of their houses, cut-off from their families. I have personally have had a drink thrown at me, been told I am not allowed to hold my boyfriends hand in public and been called a f*ggot on multiple occasions.

People's views on LGBT people have come a long, long way - but let's not pretend it's easy to come out and no one cares. That's 100% fake news.

 

[sirdingydang]

I personally know people - some who use this board - who use the term f*ggot regularly. I've heard it countless times at UCF sporting events to disparage opposing players.

 

[Crazyhole]

Like I pointed out many times in this thread, I do not want to force anyone to come out. I want the people who want to come out (but don't due to fear of either the media circus, their fans or their teammates) to be able to to.

I find it very interesting that a bunch of people in here are trying to tell me, the only gay dude on here, how gays are viewed. You keep claiming no one cares.

I have had friends kicked out of their houses, cut-off from their families. I have personally have had a drink thrown at me, been told I am not allowed to hold my boyfriends hand in public and been called a f*ggot on multiple occasions.

People's views on LGBT people have come a long, long way - but let's not pretend it's easy to come out and no one cares. That's 100% fake news.

I appreciate your perspective on this and while I can't totally understand, I feel bad for the struggles you've had. The people who have treated you poorly are disgusting individuals and to that end, should be disregarded to the best of your ability.

Out of curiosity, you have no problem in stating your sexuality here, what makes that so? Is it because of the anonymity of the boards, because of an enforced code of conduct, or because you've gotten past the concern of being judged and harassed?

 

[bqknight]

I appreciate your perspective on this and while I can't totally understand, I feel bad for the struggles you've had. The people who have treated you poorly are disgusting individuals and to that end, should be disregarded to the best of your ability.

Out of curiosity, you have no problem in stating your sexuality here, what makes that so? Is it because of the anonymity of the boards, because of an enforced code of conduct, or because you've gotten past the concern of being judged and harassed?

Mostly that I have been out long enough now that I have become comfortable with my own skin. That definitely was not the case when I first came out - I was afraid of anyone knowing that I didn't want to know. When I first told the board, I debated whether I should or not. I believe it was in a discussion about gay marriage, way back in the day, when it still not as widely accepted.

I'm still hesitant in certain situations. I'm more cognizant if I am in an area I think might not be as receptive. I live in DT Orlando - so I feel perfectly fine here. When I go to my husband's families house in Davenport, FL, I "tone it down" a bit. I definitely still get concerned of being looked upon differently. Even if not harassed, still, treated...differently.

I'm not the gayest thing in the world but I am most definitely gay. It's not something I can really hide - although I tried to when I was younger.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Mostly that I have been out long enough now that I have become comfortable with my own skin. That definitely was not the case when I first came out - I was afraid of anyone knowing that I didn't want to know. When I first told the board, I debated whether I should or not. I believe it was in a discussion about gay marriage, way back in the day, when it still not as widely accepted.

I'm still hesitant in certain situations. I'm more cognizant if I am in an area I think might not be as receptive. I live in DT Orlando - so I feel perfectly fine here. When I go to my husband's families house in Davenport, FL, I "tone it down" a bit. I definitely still get concerned of being looked upon differently. Even if not harassed, still, treated...differently.

I'm not the gayest thing in the world but I am most definitely gay. It's not something I can really hide - although I tried to when I was younger.

Honest question- how does “coming off as gay” happen? Like you said, people would know you’re gay and I can usually detect a gay guy, but I never know why. Especially since I’ve met gay people where you can’t tell.

Is it mannerisms that you’ve adopted or is it inate?

 

[Crazyhole]

Mostly that I have been out long enough now that I have become comfortable with my own skin. That definitely was not the case when I first came out - I was afraid of anyone knowing that I didn't want to know. When I first told the board, I debated whether I should or not. I believe it was in a discussion about gay marriage, way back in the day, when it still not as widely accepted.

I'm still hesitant in certain situations. I'm more cognizant if I am in an area I think might not be as receptive. I live in DT Orlando - so I feel perfectly fine here. When I go to my husband's families house in Davenport, FL, I "tone it down" a bit. I definitely still get concerned of being looked upon differently. Even if not harassed, still, treated...differently.

I'm not the gayest thing in the world but I am most definitely gay. It's not something I can really hide - although I tried to when I was younger.

Thank you for your honesty. I can't begin to speak for everyone, but I personally have never had a problem with someone being gay. I do have a problem with the gay pride parades in SF and Phoenix but not because it's about people being gay, it's how they represent themselves in such a provocative way. Just always seemed to me that it was unnecessary, probably destructive, and way too "in your face" I kind of have the same problem with how the militant LGBT community presents themselves today. It's just 1 persons experience and perspective but I have never taken any level of issue with interacting with someone who is gay. I have 3 or 4 customers who are gay and I couldn't care less about it. My wife's best friend came out 2 years ago and I've met her girlfriends and it's been no different than it ever was. She is still the same person she ever was so it doesn't make any sense to treat or think of her differently.

I apologize if my posts in this thread come across as being antagonistic or dismissive. On a personal level a person's sexuality Doesn't change the way I think about or treat someone. The idea of it is weird to me. I just wish it wasn't made into a political argument where the minority extremes are the loudest voices in the room.

 

[Crazyhole]

Honest question- how does “coming off as gay” happen? Like you said, people would know you’re gay and I can usually detect a gay guy, but I never know why. Especially since I’ve met gay people where you can’t tell.

Is it mannerisms that you’ve adopted or is it inate?

I can totally relate to this. I think what I see that leads me to know that a person is gay is how they hold their arms and hands in front of them when doing activities. It's weird, but it seems to be a common attribute. Elbow bent, forearm out in front of the body, wrist held loosely with the hand dropped.

It may be just a coincidence, but I remember specifically 2 brothers that I went to school with and 2 other kids who all had the same attribute, and they all came out later on.

BQ, is this a thing?

 

[bqknight]

Honest question- how does “coming off as gay” happen? Like you said, people would know you’re gay and I can usually detect a gay guy, but I never know why. Especially since I’ve met gay people where you can’t tell.

Is it mannerisms that you’ve adopted or is it inate?

I think it's both. My voice (which is still something I am self conscious about to this day) would be considered "gay".

However - as I became part of gay culture, started going to gay bars, hanging out with gay people, I've picked up some things too. Slang terms, probably some mannerisms.

HOWEVER - this is not a standardized thing. I know people you would never guess were gay. I also know people who are as gay as you can get. That's the whole point of the rainbow flag - there is literally a gay person of every variety out there.

There is some sort of "gaydar" though - at least, I'm convinced there is. You just get this sixth sense thing.

 

[bqknight]

Thank you for your honesty. I can't begin to speak for everyone, but I personally have never had a problem with someone being gay. I do have a problem with the gay pride parades in SF and Phoenix but not because it's about people being gay, it's how they represent themselves in such a provocative way. Just always seemed to me that it was unnecessary, probably destructive, and way too "in your face" I kind of have the same problem with how the militant LGBT community presents themselves today. It's just 1 persons experience and perspective but I have never taken any level of issue with interacting with someone who is gay. I have 3 or 4 customers who are gay and I couldn't care less about it. My wife's best friend came out 2 years ago and I've met her girlfriends and it's been no different than it ever was. She is still the same person she ever was so it doesn't make any sense to treat or think of her differently.

I apologize if my posts in this thread come across as being antagonistic or dismissive. On a personal level a person's sexuality Doesn't change the way I think about or treat someone. The idea of it is weird to me. I just wish it wasn't made into a political argument where the minority extremes are the loudest voices in the room.

I do not see a problem with pride parades - if you don't like them - don't go to them. Have you been to one? They're usually not as "crazy" as the media makes them out to be. It's mostly PFLAG groups, corporate LGBT groups and other public figures - with some dudes in underwear sprinkled in. Gasparilla is crazier than some pride festivals.

I don't like militant people regardless - however - it comes from being discriminated against. I think a balance needs to be had - and in your face usually isn't the right way.

I can totally relate to this. I think what I see that leads me to know that a person is gay is how they hold their arms and hands in front of them when doing activities. It's weird, but it seems to be a common attribute. Elbow bent, forearm out in front of the body, wrist held loosely with the hand dropped.

It may be just a coincidence, but I remember specifically 2 brothers that I went to school with and 2 other kids who all had the same attribute, and they all came out later on.

BQ, is this a thing?

Nope, that sounds very uncomfortable. I usually have my arms folded or on my hip or something LOL.

 

[UCFKnight85]

I think it's both. My voice (which is still something I am self conscious about to this day) would be considered "gay".

However - as I became part of gay culture, started going to gay bars, hanging out with gay people, I've picked up some things too. Slang terms, probably some mannerisms.

HOWEVER - this is not a standardized thing. I know people you would never guess were gay. I also know people who are as gay as you can get. That's the whole point of the rainbow flag - there is literally a gay person of every variety out there.

There is some sort of "gaydar" though - at least, I'm convinced there is. You just get this sixth sense thing.

That's interesting. I had always assumed it was picked up as part of the culture but then I wondered if there were genetic reasons that altered mannerisms or speech.

I've seen guys marry a woman who I would have bet my life were gay.

 

[Crazyhole]

I do not see a problem with pride parades - if you don't like them - don't go to them. Have you been to one? They're usually not as "crazy" as the media makes them out to be. It's mostly PFLAG groups, corporate LGBT groups and other public figures - with some dudes in underwear sprinkled in. Gasparilla is crazier than some pride festivals.

I don't like militant people regardless - however - it comes from being discriminated against. I think a balance needs to be had - and in your face usually isn't the right way.



Nope, that sounds very uncomfortable. I usually have my arms folded or on my hip or something LOL.

I guess the issue I have with the gay pride parades of the past was that it included a lot of people wearing assless chaps and emulating things that were on the extreme fringes of how someone actually acts in their sexuality. Knowing gay people who didn't act that way it just didn't seem productive to me. I'd have the same opinion on it if it was a straight pride parade where people came out to show their sex toys or whatnot. It just doesn't seem necessary, but I'll I've been exposed to is what the media has pushed which is always the fringe elements.


As far as the arm thing, I always thought it was a strange physical attribute and how it coincided with a man being gay. Probably just a coincidence. It's probably just a matter of revisionist history in my mind, which is why I asked the question. Another seemingly common denominator has been overly aggressive sexual behavior in the reverse. The 4 guys I referenced earlier all had a level of sexual conquest that wasn't typical. My wife's friend went through the same thing. She had an inordinate amount of sexual partners before she came out.

 

[bqknight]

That's interesting. I had always assumed it was picked up as part of the culture but then I wondered if there were genetic reasons that altered mannerisms or speech.

I've seen guys marry a woman who I would have bet my life were gay.

Maybe they are? Maybe they’re not. I know gay guys who have married women.