Baby Dies after Parents Pray Instead of Seek Medical Help

[bqknight]

Seen this happen a few times over the years, what's your all thoughts on these situations?

https://www.9news.com.au/world/2018...avis-lee-mitchell-guilty-premature-baby-death

 

[UCFKnight85]

Having a child killed in the womb at 34 weeks = women's health care

A child dying when born early at 34 weeks due to not seeking the "correct" medical care = child neglect and murder. Mother goes to jail.

Anyone see an issue with the above?

 

[bqknight]

Having a child killed in the womb at 34 weeks = women's health care

A child dying when born early at 34 weeks due to not seeking the "correct" medical care = child neglect and murder. Mother goes to jail.

Anyone see an issue with the above?

Who thinks it’s okay to abort a baby at 34 weeks? I’d venture to say almost no one unless the mother’s life was in danger.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Having a child killed in the womb at 34 weeks = women's health care

A child dying when born early at 34 weeks due to not seeking the "correct" medical care = child neglect and murder. Mother goes to jail.

Anyone see an issue with the above?

Only issue I see is you being a literal piece of human shit with your response. They did not choose "incorrect" healthcare. They chose no health care. And how many abortions are done at 34 weeks? That's literally full term.

 

[Crazyhole]

We had a Pentecostal church in my town about 20 years ago, and let me tell you that those people were frigging messed up. As soon as I saw the title of this thread I knew it had to be pentacostalists.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Who thinks it’s okay to abort a baby at 34 weeks? I’d venture to say almost no one unless the mother’s life was in danger.

Oregon is the only state in the nation with absolutely no restrictions of any kind on abortion. Late term abortion is 100% legal in Oregon.

They passed SB 397 in 1983 which essentially overturned every single restriction that was in place. None have been put in place since.

 

[1ofTheseKnights]

Baffling to me. They were probably well meaning people totally led astray. Literally never heard of this "Christian denomination" & its a pseudo hobby of mine.

"The Followers of Christ church was founded in Chanute, Kansas, by Marion Reece (sometimes spelled Riess[2]), rooted in Holiness and Pentecostal traditions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ

Yeah gonna be a "no for a me dawg." Not a pissing match to go "anti-abortion guy" for me. If you're not Catholic, Orthodox, mainline Protestant (or very close to) to me, you leave yourself open to exponential crazy.

 

[sk8knight]

As far as I’m concerned, the only group that should have the ability to forego modern medicine are the Amish, as they forego most of the modern world entirely. Maybe there are a few others. But the religions that pick and choose what modern conveniences they allow cannot choose to ignore modern health services.

 

[sk8knight]

Who thinks it’s okay to abort a baby at 34 weeks? I’d venture to say almost no one unless the mother’s life was in danger.

I seemed to remember plenty of pols and celebs wanting to remove all restrictions entirely. So I went looking, and found that many democrat pols, including Hillary and Bernie, did support removing restrictions but also said they’d support a late pregnancy ban with exceptions for health concerns (well, Bernie and Hillary stated that). I think that last part is a decent compromise.

One of the studies claimed that only 1.3% of abortions are performed after the 24th week. I’m going to assume the vast majority of those are for medical reasons and not elective. So I really don’t think it should be hard to find a compromise on later pregnancy abortion.

 

[Crazyhole]

I seemed to remember plenty of pols and celebs wanting to remove all restrictions entirely. So I went looking, and found that many democrat pols, including Hillary and Bernie, did support removing restrictions but also said they’d support a late pregnancy ban with exceptions for health concerns (well, Bernie and Hillary stated that). I think that last part is a decent compromise.

One of the studies claimed that only 1.3% of abortions are performed after the 24th week. I’m going to assume the vast majority of those are for medical reasons and not elective. So I really don’t think it should be hard to find a compromise on later pregnancy abortion.

I think it would be reasonable to place a ban on abortions that would be consistent with how doctors monitor vital signs:

Heart rate
Blood pressure
Respiration
Body temperature
Pain

If a fetus has a heart rate, has blood pressure and can feel pain then its a person. Obviously respiration and body temperature arent applicable in this scenario but of themselves dont counterindicate life here just like a person on a respirator is still a person.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Are the vegan hippie leftie earth children Anti-Vaxxers in jail? The people who don't vaccinate their kids?

If not, why not? Why are we jailing these Christian sects but not the morons who are causing other kids to get sick because some drugged up hippie told them that vaccinations cause autism?

I would never, ever follow what these people in Oregon did but I'm just wondering why there's one set of rules here and a different set of rules for others. Or why they can be thrown in jail for "mistreating" a premature newborn having done no actual harm to the baby, when the law allows for the legal killing of that same baby when still in the womb?

 

[NinjaKnight]

As far as I’m concerned, the only group that should have the ability to forego modern medicine are the Amish, as they forego most of the modern world entirely. Maybe there are a few others. But the religions that pick and choose what modern conveniences they allow cannot choose to ignore modern health services.

This is, of course, wrong. The religious rights of the parents do not trump the right to life of their children.

Are the vegan hippie leftie earth children Anti-Vaxxers in jail? The people who don't vaccinate their kids?

If not, why not? Why are we jailing these Christian sects but not the morons who are causing other kids to get sick because some drugged up hippie told them that vaccinations cause autism?

I would never, ever follow what these people in Oregon did but I'm just wondering why there's one set of rules here and a different set of rules for others. Or why they can be thrown in jail for "mistreating" a premature newborn having done no actual harm to the baby, when the law allows for the legal killing of that same baby when still in the womb?

JFC you prove yet again you are a pathetic partisan piece of shit.

 

[btbones]

God gave doctors the ability to help . Praying for the dr to have success and proper guidance is the norm . Praying instead of providing medical care is Just dumb . I didn’ read this particular piece but if a doc felt they could help the child and the parents chose not to do so then that’s wrong .

 

[UCFKnight85]

God gave doctors the ability to help . Praying for the dr to have success and proper guidance is the norm . Praying instead of providing medical care is Just dumb . I didn’ read this particular piece but if a doc felt they could help the child and the parents chose not to do so then that’s wrong .

It is wrong in my view . But Is it criminal? That’s what is being debated here.

 

[btbones]

It is wrong in my view . But Is it criminal? That’s what is being debated here.

That I’m not sure of as the law states but I’ve always felt letting a child die when they could be saved my medicine SHOULD be criminal

 

[sk8knight]

That I’m not sure of as the law states but I’ve always felt letting a child die when they could be saved my medicine SHOULD be criminal

Yes, it should be criminal. However, if society’s going to demand that parents provide a certain “standard of care” or else face charges, then society needs to educate those parents as to what is expected. I hate growing the government, but maybe it’s time that we require parents to attend some form of “these are your responsibilities” training before they birth the kid.

 

[btbones]

Yes, it should be criminal. However, if society’s going to demand that parents provide a certain “standard of care” or else face charges, then society needs to educate those parents as to what is expected. I hate growing the government, but maybe it’s time that we require parents to attend some form of “these are your responsibilities” training before they birth the kid.

Common Sense dictates that a sick , dying child needs medical attention. We shouldn't need classes or Apps for that.

 

[NinjaKnight]

It is wrong in my view . But Is it criminal? That’s what is being debated here.

No one is debating this Copernicus. Parents killed their kid.

 

[cnsaguy]

Common Sense

Alas, the ingredient missing from a vast majority of our population. At least 75% of negative discussion between people, regardless of party, would be eliminated.

 

[KNIGHTTIME^]

Killing babies isn't health care. Neglecting health care and abortions are both slime ball moves.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

Are the vegan hippie leftie earth children Anti-Vaxxers in jail? The people who don't vaccinate their kids?

If not, why not? Why are we jailing these Christian sects but not the morons who are causing other kids to get sick because some drugged up hippie told them that vaccinations cause autism?

I would never, ever follow what these people in Oregon did but I'm just wondering why there's one set of rules here and a different set of rules for others. Or why they can be thrown in jail for "mistreating" a premature newborn having done no actual harm to the baby, when the law allows for the legal killing of that same baby when still in the womb?

You do know there are just as many conservative and libertarian antivaxxers, right? They might have different reasons for putting their (and everyone else's) children at risk, but the horseshoe theory is alive and well with these morons.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Neglect, jail time, then spay and neuter these idiots.

 

[bqknight]

As far as I’m concerned, the only group that should have the ability to forego modern medicine are the Amish, as they forego most of the modern world entirely. Maybe there are a few others. But the religions that pick and choose what modern conveniences they allow cannot choose to ignore modern health services.

I actually work with a hospital up North that has Amish patients. Although Amish people don't partake in most modern things, keeping their children safe is extremely important to them. They band together all their money as a community, hire drivers and take their children to modern hospitals to make sure they are okay and get them the medical care they need.

 

[NinjaKnight]

I actually work with a hospital up North that has Amish patients. Although Amish people don't partake in most modern things, keeping their children safe is extremely important to them. They band together all their money as a community, hire drivers and take their children to modern hospitals to make sure they are okay and get them the medical care they need.

As it should be. If you your religious beliefs over the health and well being of your children (who don't have a choice in the matter) you are a literal piece of shit.

 

[UCFKnight85]

I actually work with a hospital up North that has Amish patients. Although Amish people don't partake in most modern things, keeping their children safe is extremely important to them. They band together all their money as a community, hire drivers and take their children to modern hospitals to make sure they are okay and get them the medical care they need.

They also vaccinate their kids are far lower rates than the general public.

 

[UCFBS]

This is only going to embolden their faith.

 

[Colbourns Dream]

Yet Charlie Gard was removed from life support when his parents were willing to do anything to help him, including bringing him to the US for a promising procedure at Columbia University Medical Center.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Yet Charlie Gard was removed from life support when his parents were willing to do anything to help him, including bringing him to the US for a promising procedure at Columbia University Medical Center.

Charlie Gard was already dead, 80% of his brain was eating away. but good job posting misinformation that was fed to you by Fox News you're really good at that on here

 

[Crazyhole]

Yet Charlie Gard was removed from life support when his parents were willing to do anything to help him, including bringing him to the US for a promising procedure at Columbia University Medical Center.

To be fair, there is consistency here. Govt is the arbiter of life and death and whether it is justified. Charlie's death was wareanted, this babies death wasn't. The irony is that the mother could have excercised her choice to kill the baby prior to birth and it would have been a-ok, even if it was partially born. Viability is determined by law, but somehow this premature baby who died IS considered viable while a full term baby is not as long as it hasn't been fully born.

In all honesty, both sides will decry the hypocrisy of the other side here and nothing will change other than the life of the woman who waited too long for the baby to die for it to be legal. At the same time we are left to ponder whether a mother who places their baby in the wrong position to sleep should be convicted of murder/involuntary manslaughter when that baby dies from SIDS.

 

[sk8knight]

Only if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the baby’s positioning causes SIDS and that the mother placed the baby in that position. Since the cause of SIDS is still unknown, I don’t see how you’d ever get a jury to convict a grieving mother who just lost her baby unless there was a ton of evidence that the mom wanted the baby dead and kept placing it into a position hoping to induce SIDS and then bragged about it after. (I’m aware that might’ve been just an example)

In our country, Government is not the arbiter of life and death. In the rare case where a judge rules to pull the plug, that is still a civil trial and the judge is acting as a moderator between two parties and not an agent of state interest. Justifiable death, such as self-defense, is decided by a jury. The state seeks the death penalty but the jury has to agree on the sentence. The power here still resides in the people and not the state. As well it should in a free country.

 

[UCFBS]

In our country, Government is not the arbiter of life and death. In the rare case where a judge rules to pull the plug, that is still a civil trial and the judge is acting as a moderator between two parties and not an agent of state interest. Justifiable death, such as self-defense, is decided by a jury. The state seeks the death penalty but the jury has to agree on the sentence. The power here still resides in the people and not the state. As well it should in a free country.

The problem is that the US media has convinced most Americans that there is no right to 'self defense,' and that guns are always 'non-proportional defense.' That's why many people are getting jailed if a DA takes it to court, despite the best efforts of police to educate lawyers on the realities.

Meanwhile, when police departments like Sanford want to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, and the Seminole DA then State AG passes, the Sanford PD gets blamed in the US media.

As I said, the US media holds a lot of sway and power.

Same with 'DNA testing,' which is done in such a way to remove PII (Personally Identifyable Information), that it's actually far worse than fingerprints. But they watch CSI and think things are 100% accurate with DNA, despite the laws.

 

[bqknight]

The problem is that the US media has convinced most Americans that there is no right to 'self defense,' and that guns are always 'non-proportional defense.' That's why many people are getting jailed if a DA takes it to court, despite the best efforts of police to educate lawyers on the realities.

Meanwhile, when police departments like Sanford want to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, and the Seminole DA then State AG passes, the Sanford PD gets blamed in the US media.

As I said, the US media holds a lot of sway and power.

Same with 'DNA testing,' which is done in such a way to remove PII (Personally Identifyable Information), that it's actually far worse than fingerprints. But they watch CSI and think things are 100% accurate with DNA, despite the laws.

Just want some clarity, is the media at fault for everything in this country? Asking for a friend.

 

[UCFBS]

Just want some clarity, is the media at fault for everything in this country? Asking for a friend.

Actually, excellent point ... no, it's not.

The American people are at fault for not thinking as an individual, and listening to what the US media says, what memes say, what the Russians say (both ways, not just pro-Republican), etc...

Which explains why the US media has such low 'truth' ratings, but too many Americans still believe what they see on TV. They stupidly think the US gov't will take away a license if the media is lying.

The 1st Amendment doesn't work that way. It can't work that way. And the only way to remain educated and free is not to trust any of it, and find for yourself -- objectively -- not just what you want to believe.

I just miss the days when the US media informed us of all the information, and let us decide for ourselves, instead of telling us what to believe. At least outlets like NPR and The Atlantic still exist.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Just want some clarity, is the media at fault for everything in this country? Asking for a friend.

Not just the media. The "clinton-progessive-sheep" media or whatever idiotic thing he's spewing.

 

[Crazyhole]

Actually, excellent point ... no, it's not.

The American people are at fault for not thinking as an individual, and listening to what the US media says, what memes say, what the Russians say (both ways, not just pro-Republican), etc...

Which explains why the US media has such low 'truth' ratings, but too many Americans still believe what they see on TV. They stupidly think the US gov't will take away a license if the media is lying.

The 1st Amendment doesn't work that way. It can't work that way. And the only way to remain educated and free is not to trust any of it, and find for yourself -- objectively -- not just what you want to believe.

I just miss the days when the US media informed us of all the information, and let us decide for ourselves, instead of telling us what to believe. At least outlets like NPR and The Atlantic still exist.

Amen. Everybody here is smart enough to form their own opinions on things but for the most part its just like watching an argument between fox news and MSNBC.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Everybody here is smart .

Lmfao

 

[UCFBS]

Amen. Everybody here is smart enough to form their own opinions on things but for the most part its just like watching an argument between fox news and MSNBC.

People make fun of us Libertarians because, and I quote, "You guys even argue with each other!"

"Bingo!" because we refuse to just tote party-lines ... even the alleged Libertarian one!

 

[Crazyhole]

People make fun of us Libertarians because, and I quote, "You guys even argue with each other!"

"Bingo!" because we refuse to just tote party-lines ... even the alleged Libertarian one!

Pretty sure that quote was mine, and I stand by it.

Libertarians are a shitshow when it comes to politics and thats a good thing. Well, right up until Gary Johnson says that Bill Weld is the original libertarian.

 

[UCFBS]

Pretty sure that quote was mine, and I stand by it.

Libertarians are a shitshow when it comes to politics and thats a good thing. Well, right up until Gary Johnson says that Bill Weld is the original libertarian.

It's looking more and more like Weld for 2020.

Gary Johnson will still be the ultimate, "Mr. Smith goes to Sante Fe," and then, "Mr. Smith goes to Washington." CNN and the RNC purposely leaving him out of the 2nd Republican debate in 2012 is why we have Trump -- Republicans were sick of the GOP establishment, and Johnson was a threat to that ... albeit far less wealthy (only about $30M).

I don't like Weld as much as Johnson, but Weld is more of your thoughtful, calm politician, whereas Johnson is the ultimate, self-deprecating fool we'd actually all love to have 'speak plainly' to us.

I just hope Weld would be as much of an a-hole to spending Congress as Johnson was. Johnson was the ultimate budget balancer, to an extreme, and the US really needs someone like him right now -- desperately.

Weld seems far more of a compromiser, and that bothers me. There is no more compromising on the budget, period, just like New Mexico when Johnson came to power.

 

[Crazyhole]

It's looking more and more like Weld for 2020.

Gary Johnson will still be the ultimate, "Mr. Smith goes to Sante Fe," and then, "Mr. Smith goes to Washington." CNN and the RNC purposely leaving him out of the 2nd Republican debate in 2012 is why we have Trump -- Republicans were sick of the GOP establishment, and Johnson was a threat to that ... albeit far less wealthy (only about $30M).

I don't like Weld as much as Johnson, but Weld is more of your thoughtful, calm politician, whereas Johnson is the ultimate, self-deprecating fool we'd actually all love to have 'speak plainly' to us.

I just hope Weld would be as much of an a-hole to spending Congress as Johnson was. Johnson was the ultimate budget balancer, to an extreme, and the US really needs someone like him right now -- desperately.

Weld seems far more of a compromiser, and that bothers me. There is no more compromising on the budget, period, just like New Mexico when Johnson came to power.

If that's the case then the libertarian party may as well disband. Johnson had the opportunity to select a true, charismatic libertarian like Petersen and that would have moved the party forward and gained legitimacy. He bungled it and may as well have driven another nail in the coffin.