Energy crunch: How we got here, and how we're back to being at OPEC's mercy

[UCFBS]

I wrote this in another thread, but I'll put it here.

I remember having discussions in the '80s and '90s that it would take gasoline, let alone diesel, hitting $4-5/gallon to start investments into Shale, and the it would have to remain above $2/gallon to remain profitable and sustainable, to continue. But the resulting Natural Gas glut, which we don't get from foreign petroleum imports, would reduce CO2 10%+, along with nitrate and sulfide emissions, and make coal expensive.

The wars and hurricanes of the early-to-mid '00s finally kickstarted started in the early '00s ... and became commodity by 2007. Then the lobbying happened, and then pure hypocrisy when we purposely decided to try to bankrupt domestic energy, despite imports still getting 'free passes.' It basically breaks down as follows ...

• Early '00s - Foreign wars
  • Speculation drives prices
  • OPEC does not increase production, despite appeals
  • Western countries invest in Russia (OPEC+)
• Mid '00s - Repeat, active hurricanes
  • Impact refining, driving shortages
  • Compounding speculation drives prices to $4+/gallon
  • Small, regional/local banks begin first investments into Shale in Canada, US
  • Growth is focus of new, domestic (Canadian, US) Shale
• 2006-2007 - Critical Inflection Point
  • New Natural Gas glut -- by product of Shale extraction
  • Martin-Harper (CA), W. (US) and NATO governments agree to make the resulting, excess Natural Gas from Shale available to via a planned set of Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) terminals for NATO
  • Canadian and US DoT re-publish studies that piplines are 50x safter, per volume, per mile, than rail, which is often along water
  • Canada begins massive, domestic pipeline building program, cross-country
  • Canada also begins Keystone Export (XL) Pipeline with US, leveraging existing Keystone and other US pipelines, for export to NATO
• Late '00 - US CO2 output drops for first time in decades
  • Only part of it is due to the economic downturn
  • Coal, Petroleum and other usage in Power Plants (most newer are tri-fuel)
  • Gas prices remain $2+/gallon, OPEC does not see Shale as a threat
  • Prices keep investments into Shale profitable, with new investments
  • US increases use of rail, including through Canada, instead of new pipelines
• Early '10s - Increasing EU Demand + Obama anti-Domestic Environmentalism
  • US becomes net exporter of petroleum
  • Natural gas glut increases -- coal now 4x as expensive
  • Fukushima causes Germany retire nuclear power, increasing coal imports
  • US becomes massive next exporter of coal, especially to Europe
  • Obama 1st administration sees 8% CO2 reduction due to Natural Gas alone
  • Ironically, Obama begins war on Shale
  • Keystone XL pipeline is under review, despite protests by Canada, NATO
  • Administration creates new penalties on domestic fossil fuels, over an order of magnitude
  • These penalties ironically do not affect imports, which don't provide Natural Gas, just domestic energy, which is responsible for Natural Gas glut
  • Domestic Shale becomes far less profitable, first bankruptcies occur
  • 2013 - Lac-Megantic, Canada - US Natural Gas Laden Shale train from North Dakota, shipping to Canadian pipelines and other terminals, explodes, incinerating parts of the town, immediately killing 47 people (and dozens after)
  • Canada begins lobbying for the US to build more pipelines, instead of using rail, often
• Mid '10s - OPEC Price War, More Shale + New Bank Bankruptcies
  • US being a net exporter is affecting volume shipments by OPEC
  • OPEC begins price war against American Shale, OPEC+ joins OPEC
  • Floods market with cheaper light crude
  • Gas prices drop below $2/gallon
  • Smaller regional/local banks exposed from 5% to as much as 30%+ investments, up to 50% of Shale companies are now in bankrupcy
  • Remaining Shale and investors go lean, stop all new investments, drillling
• Late '10s - Trump Penalty roll-back, domestic tax incentives
  • OPEC keeps up price war, keeping gas below $2/gallon
  • Cuts penalties back to pre-Obama levels
  • Heeds Canada, NATO, and restarted Keystone XL
  • German and other NATO nations are completely dependent on North American Natural Gas for CO2 emissions and environmental plan -- per Martin-Harper and W. agreements mid-to-late '00s
  • Domestic tax incentives, new tax code penalitize foreign investments, including Oil
  • New stabilize most, but not all, Shale and most banks
  • Remain Shale and investors remain lean, still no new investments
• '20s - Lockdowns, Biden administration restores Obama penalties, cuts all grants
  • Lockdowns wipes out demand, gas remains under $2/gallon
  • Biden administration enters, over doubles Obama-era penalities by sacking domestic Shale/fossil fuels with penalties based on overall CO2 by all nations, not just the US, more Shale and investors bankrupt, sue Biden administration
  • Biden yanks all federal land and Gulf leases -- even those that can be issued by Mexico -- for energy, including in-progress
  • Several small energy companies in-progress bankrupt, other, larger entities that survive, write-off losses, banks and investors sue Biden administration
  • Biden administration ends Keystone XL
  • Biden tells NATO to get Natural Gas from Canada and Russia, not US
  • Canada finally gives up on Keystone XL ... permanently
  • EU and NATO have unchoice words for Biden administration as a result
  • US begins using more coal, no longer a net exporter of petroleum, Natural Gas prices over double
  • By summer 2021, with increased demand recovering from over a year of lockdowns, Biden administration asks OPEC to increase production -- as expected
  • OPEC rebukes Biden, but would only provide oil, not Natural Gas, so CO2 is rising
  • Biden gives OPEC+ (Russia) incentives, US increases its imporation almost an order of magnitude -- still small, but a signficant portion of Russian income (60% overall from all nations)
  • Judge rules Biden administration fossil fuel penalties can only use US domestic rates under interstate commerce law, and cannot penalize base on global output, pollution by China and others, reducing penalties to Obama-era
  • Another judge rules yanking leases to be ex-post-facto and Unconstitutitional, order immediate grant of new leases, review of losses to domestic energy companies
  • But damage is done, many energy companies either bankrupt or write-off in-progress ramp-up to extraction for yanked leases
  • Russia invades Ukraine, Biden administration makes plea to domestic energy
  • No domestic companies want to invest without 10+ years of guarantees not to yank leases or enact penalities against domestic energy after 14 years of it (sans 4 during Trump -- hence the guarantee)
  • Biden administration refuses to accept terms set by domestic energy, stalemate ensues
  • Without domestic energy investments now, prices will only increase and remain inflated for another 5-7 years
  • Biden pleads with OPEC, and OPEC finally agrees to small increases in output, but prices will still remain inflated for years to come without further increases
  • Shale / Natural Gas remains a Canadian only venture, at 1/10th the capability of prior, US investment to the 2nd Obama administration
  • NATO remains tied to Russian energy, even nuclear-heavy France (although less than most others)

Anyone around energy -- domestic or not -- are pretty pissed off at us, including all our allies in NATO that believed the Martin-Harper and W. agreements back in the mid-to-late '00s. We screwed our own allies. We screwed our own security.

 

[Ucfmikes]

I wrote this in another thread, but I'll put it here.

I remember having discussions in the '80s and '90s that it would take gasoline, let alone diesel, hitting $4-5/gallon to start investments into Shale, and the it would have to remain above $2/gallon to remain profitable and sustainable, to continue. But the resulting Natural Gas glut, which we don't get from foreign petroleum imports, would reduce CO2 10%+, along with nitrate and sulfide emissions, and make coal expensive.

The wars and hurricanes of the early-to-mid '00s finally kickstarted started in the early '00s ... and became commodity by 2007. Then the lobbying happened, and then pure hypocrisy when we purposely decided to try to bankrupt domestic energy, despite imports still getting 'free passes.' It basically breaks down as follows ...

• Early '00s - Foreign wars
  • Speculation drives prices
  • OPEC does not increase production, despite appeals
  • Western countries invest in Russia (OPEC+)
• Mid '00s - Repeat, active hurricanes
  • Impact refining, driving shortages
  • Compounding speculation drives prices to $4+/gallon
  • Small, regional/local banks begin first investments into Shale in Canada, US
  • Growth is focus of new, domestic (Canadian, US) Shale
• 2006-2007 - Critical Inflection Point
  • New Natural Gas glut -- by product of Shale extraction
  • Martin-Harper (CA), W. (US) and NATO governments agree to make the resulting, excess Natural Gas from Shale available to via a planned set of Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) terminals for NATO
  • Canadian and US DoT re-publish studies that piplines are 50x safter, per volume, per mile, than rail, which is often along water
  • Canada begins massive, domestic pipeline building program, cross-country
  • Canada also begins Keystone Export (XL) Pipeline with US, leveraging existing Keystone and other US pipelines, for export to NATO
• Late '00 - US CO2 output drops for first time in decades
  • Only part of it is due to the economic downturn
  • Coal, Petroleum and other usage in Power Plants (most newer are tri-fuel)
  • Gas prices remain $2+/gallon, OPEC does not see Shale as a threat
  • Prices keep investments into Shale profitable, with new investments
  • US increases use of rail, including through Canada, instead of new pipelines
• Early '10s - Increasing EU Demand + Obama anti-Domestic Environmentalism
  • US becomes net exporter of petroleum
  • Natural gas glut increases -- coal now 4x as expensive
  • Fukushima causes Germany retire nuclear power, increasing coal imports
  • US becomes massive next exporter of coal, especially to Europe
  • Obama 1st administration sees 8% CO2 reduction due to Natural Gas alone
  • Ironically, Obama begins war on Shale
  • Keystone XL pipeline is under review, despite protests by Canada, NATO
  • Administration creates new penalties on domestic fossil fuels, over an order of magnitude
  • These penalties ironically do not affect imports, which don't provide Natural Gas, just domestic energy, which is responsible for Natural Gas glut
  • Domestic Shale becomes far less profitable, first bankruptcies occur
  • 2013 - Lac-Megantic, Canada - US Natural Gas Laden Shale train from North Dakota, shipping to Canadian pipelines and other terminals, explodes, incinerating parts of the town, immediately killing 47 people (and dozens after)
  • Canada begins lobbying for the US to build more pipelines, instead of using rail, often
• Mid '10s - OPEC Price War, More Shale + New Bank Bankruptcies
  • US being a net exporter is affecting volume shipments by OPEC
  • OPEC begins price war against American Shale, OPEC+ joins OPEC
  • Floods market with cheaper light crude
  • Gas prices drop below $2/gallon
  • Smaller regional/local banks exposed from 5% to as much as 30%+ investments, up to 50% of Shale companies are now in bankrupcy
  • Remaining Shale and investors go lean, stop all new investments, drillling
• Late '10s - Trump Penalty roll-back, domestic tax incentives
  • OPEC keeps up price war, keeping gas below $2/gallon
  • Cuts penalties back to pre-Obama levels
  • Heeds Canada, NATO, and restarted Keystone XL
  • German and other NATO nations are completely dependent on North American Natural Gas for CO2 emissions and environmental plan -- per Martin-Harper and W. agreements mid-to-late '00s
  • Domestic tax incentives, new tax code penalitize foreign investments, including Oil
  • New stabilize most, but not all, Shale and most banks
  • Remain Shale and investors remain lean, still no new investments
• '20s - Lockdowns, Biden administration restores Obama penalties, cuts all grants
  • Lockdowns wipes out demand, gas remains under $2/gallon
  • Biden administration enters, over doubles Obama-era penalities by sacking domestic Shale/fossil fuels with penalties based on overall CO2 by all nations, not just the US, more Shale and investors bankrupt, sue Biden administration
  • Biden yanks all federal land and Gulf leases -- even those that can be issued by Mexico -- for energy, including in-progress
  • Several small energy companies in-progress bankrupt, other, larger entities that survive, write-off losses, banks and investors sue Biden administration
  • Biden administration ends Keystone XL
  • Biden tells NATO to get Natural Gas from Canada and Russia, not US
  • Canada finally gives up on Keystone XL ... permanently
  • EU and NATO have unchoice words for Biden administration as a result
  • US begins using more coal, no longer a net exporter of petroleum, Natural Gas prices over double
  • By summer 2021, with increased demand recovering from over a year of lockdowns, Biden administration asks OPEC to increase production -- as expected
  • OPEC rebukes Biden, but would only provide oil, not Natural Gas, so CO2 is rising
  • Biden gives OPEC+ (Russia) incentives, US increases its imporation almost an order of magnitude -- still small, but a signficant portion of Russian income (60% overall from all nations)
  • Judge rules Biden administration fossil fuel penalties can only use US domestic rates under interstate commerce law, and cannot penalize base on global output, pollution by China and others, reducing penalties to Obama-era
  • Another judge rules yanking leases to be ex-post-facto and Unconstitutitional, order immediate grant of new leases, review of losses to domestic energy companies
  • But damage is done, many energy companies either bankrupt or write-off in-progress ramp-up to extraction for yanked leases
  • Russia invades Ukraine, Biden administration makes plea to domestic energy
  • No domestic companies want to invest without 10+ years of guarantees not to yank leases or enact penalities against domestic energy after 14 years of it (sans 4 during Trump -- hence the guarantee)
  • Biden administration refuses to accept terms set by domestic energy, stalemate ensues
  • Without domestic energy investments now, prices will only increase and remain inflated for another 5-7 years
  • Biden pleads with OPEC, and OPEC finally agrees to small increases in output, but prices will still remain inflated for years to come without further increases
  • Shale / Natural Gas remains a Canadian only venture, at 1/10th the capability of prior, US investment to the 2nd Obama administration
  • NATO remains tied to Russian energy, even nuclear-heavy France (although less than most others)

Anyone around energy -- domestic or not -- are pretty pissed off at us, including all our allies in NATO that believed the Martin-Harper and W. agreements back in the mid-to-late '00s. We screwed our own allies. We screwed our own security.

1150 words

 

[BCHailMary]

Price of gas needs to climb to $10-$15 per gallon to force people into electric cars and get solar and wind power as a first option. No more oil leases or pipelines. Start deflating tires of suvs and large trucks so owners can't drive. Start charging an environmental fee for those driving a suvs and trucks. No more personal boating due to environmental concerns or pay a huge environmental tax.

Time to fight the Republicans against their mess.

 

[UCFloridaTech]

Price of gas needs to climb to $10-$15 per gallon to force people into electric cars and get solar and wind power as a first option. No more oil leases or pipelines. Start deflating tires of suvs and large trucks so owners can't drive. Start charging an environmental fee for those driving a suvs and trucks. No more personal boating due to environmental concerns or pay a huge environmental tax.

Time to fight the Republicans against their mess.

Why no hydro-dams? Free, Renuable Energy (unless you build on a California drought river, tehee) ...and the property taxes of all the water front dams create can offset student loan debt. Win win!

 

[goodknightfl]

There is no energy crunch. It is a vast right-wing conspiracy.

 

[UCFBS]

Price of gas needs to climb to $10-$15 per gallon to force people into electric cars

But the grid isn't renovated so we won't even have enough to power a fourth of the vehicles cleanly. Heck, some states are power starved already, even with fossil fuelds, because of increased electric cars.

The power grid needs to be renovated first, otherwise, we're just wasting more fossil fuels. More electric cars now will only increase our use of fossil fuels, not less!

The Europeans think we're idiots for not adopting Plug-in Hybrids ... and they're right! Especially more rural European countries that have the same issues as the US west of the Mississippi, but even portions of the south.

The plan has always been to slowly replace ICE with hydrogen-fuel cell in plug-in hybrids as the grid is renovated and clean. Huge battery packs and pure charging is not only unsustainable, but as much as a mistake as Edison's DC-only argument. Fuel-cell + plug-in battery has always been the solution like AC/DC. Big battery is just as irresponsible as DC-only was.

and get solar and wind power as a first option. No more oil leases or pipelines.

You do realize Natural Gas is the current EU plan for not only the 3 decades of transistion, but ... backfill during overnight and hours lacking wind, correct?

Wind also has many issues, and states like California are going full-on special interest (huge battery farms, instead of distributed endpoints ... totally reliant on transmission lines ... stupid, but controlling).

We need more hydro and start doing wave. But The Sierra Club has outlawed those for 50+, even though they have less environmental impact that wind. Simple fluid dynamics 101.

Start deflating tires of suvs and large trucks so owners can't drive.

What if they are couriers and independent truck drivers that delivery goods? As gas prices rise, more and more people with 5th wheel trucks will get more and more work, as 18 wheelers become too expensive to operate.

I don't think you thought this through. A lot of volunteer fire fighters also drive trucks, and many people live rural and they are dual-use vehicles. Even surburan trucks are needed for various deliveries and contracting, as most are self-employed.

That's what that whole alleged 'subsidy' is, volunteer fire fighters, independent contractors and others. Those who cannot justify actual use of their trucks are taxed! People need to turn off the rhetoric from media.

Start charging an environmental fee for those driving a suvs and trucks.

We already do in many states. But ... why not just have carbon, nitrate and sulfide emissoins -- carbon taxes -- on consumers, so they feel it too?!

That's what the Swiss and many Eurpoean nations do! This cap'n trade and other non-sense is all 100% special interest. Big businesses lobby and get exceptions, small companies go bankrupt or get acquired to avoid it.

I honestly wished Americans would study the real energy economy. They would reverse their views 180 degrees and realize we're impeding market adoption of green energy! California is the worst.

No more personal boating due to environmental concerns or pay a huge environmental tax.

And you wonder why the US has a pathetic Merchant Marine now? Our taxes and fees are already insane compared to other countries! So many boats are registered overseas for a reason! Even small ones!

Time to fight the Republicans against their mess.

Wait?! This was created by ... Republicans?! Did you understand how we got here? We promised NATO Natural Gas, and we're ****ing them over ... as well as ourselves. Fracking brings in Natural Gas, and it is not optional!

Not even after we renovate the power grid!

We are taxing/feeing domestic energy to death, all while the overseas extraction is not, and has far, far more impacts! Same thing with buying from non-domestic producers and manufacturers ... we don't get hardly any tax and we impact the environment with sulfides/nitrates in the oceans.

And have you ever seen bunker fuel? What it produces?

Again ... American consumers really need to realize this is hardly a left-right issue, but an overall ignorance issue. The left pays lip service and services special interest and are winning that. We're becoming a huge oligarchy. The market is not allowed to compete and even make things greener for less cost.

Trump was a bafoon that thought coal was coming back, it never will ... although the EU is using it. We have to stop ****ing around from a security standpoint and have a real plan, not a lip service / special interest at the cost of the taxpayer plan.

Stop the non-sense and learn about real energy economics and impact. And ignore organizations like The Sierra Club that have ****ed us. They are not interested in reducing impact, but their own world.

Why no hydro-dams?

The Sierra Club has successfully prevented new ones for over 50+ years. Same with wave power.

The irony is that hydro/wave is far more efficient and far less impactful on the environment than wind. But because people like @BCHailMary 'support the current thing,' they don't know that, and support wind, blindly.

Wind was never designed for en masse, but just in areas of consistent, heavy wind ... just like where we put hydro (banned) or wave (banned).

It's difficult to find an engineer or physcists that isn't frustrated with 'The Church of Popular Science' right now.

We also need to get away from pure eVs and the ecological disaster of Lithium-Ion. It's combustive -- and only doesn't explode because of regulator logic -- just like hydrogen -- which is 4-8x the energy potential per weight-- and we might as well use hydrogen instead, which was always the plan.

Smaller battery packs using 99%+ recyclable Lead-Acid (which we're going back to, ironically), unlike <25% recyclable Lithium-Ion (and doesn't last as long), with Hydrogen-Fuel Cell. That was always the plan. It's why every Data Center and 'green' (not really, 'net zero emissoins/impact' is a lie, but is far less) companies like Facebook, Google, etc... all use Hydrogen-Fuel Cells, despite the huge solar arrays. The need off-hour plants and backup during storms too.

The plan has always been to slowly wean off of Natural Gas as much as possible and have a hydrogen economy with solar. At least until the 'Church of Popular Science' not only got all new solar and hydro (plus wave) killed, but started pushing against Hydrogen because Elon Musk wants his subsidies for big battery/charging, just like Edison wanted DC-only for subsidy, and wanted AC outlawed.

That's literally what we're dealing with right now ... and no engineers or real environmentalists can stop it.

Free, Renuable Energy (unless you build on a California drought river, tehee) ...and the property taxes of all the water front dams create can offset student loan debt. Win win!

California is the perfect example of massive special interest. They are literally lobbying for control.

It's why their solar design is massively costly compared to the EU, and heavily criticized as the transmission lines have to be working. They have big, huge, subsidized battery centers, instead of more efficiently distributed cells.

That was the original promise of solar ... end-point clean, local storage, feed back into the grid is needed, still works when transmission lines are down. Right now 99% of solar is useless in California without transmission lines, and they fool people saying "It's unsafe for line workers." No, it's called purposefully bad (controlling) design, and it is easily accommodated (line workers quite protected) had they not made it dependent on tramission lines.

I could go on and on.

Even California's forestry budget is dominated by aircraft costs for dropping water, which is a waste when that money goes 100x farther with line workers and controlled burning. It's why they have a 30 year deficit and their best people have resigned the last couple of decades. They are tired of the special interest and companies that love to waste taxpayer dollars.

Again, 'government' is the solution, as always ... The Church of Popular Science.

 

[UCFloridaTech]

I wrote this in another thread, but I'll put it here.

I remember having discussions in the '80s and '90s that it would take gasoline, let alone diesel, hitting $4-5/gallon to start investments into Shale, and the it would have to remain above $2/gallon to remain profitable and sustainable, to continue. But the resulting Natural Gas glut, which we don't get from foreign petroleum imports, would reduce CO2 10%+, along with nitrate and sulfide emissions, and make coal expensive.

The wars and hurricanes of the early-to-mid '00s finally kickstarted started in the early '00s ... and became commodity by 2007. Then the lobbying happened, and then pure hypocrisy when we purposely decided to try to bankrupt domestic energy, despite imports still getting 'free passes.' It basically breaks down as follows ...

• Early '00s - Foreign wars
  • Speculation drives prices
  • OPEC does not increase production, despite appeals
  • Western countries invest in Russia (OPEC+)
• Mid '00s - Repeat, active hurricanes
  • Impact refining, driving shortages
  • Compounding speculation drives prices to $4+/gallon
  • Small, regional/local banks begin first investments into Shale in Canada, US
  • Growth is focus of new, domestic (Canadian, US) Shale
• 2006-2007 - Critical Inflection Point
  • New Natural Gas glut -- by product of Shale extraction
  • Martin-Harper (CA), W. (US) and NATO governments agree to make the resulting, excess Natural Gas from Shale available to via a planned set of Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) terminals for NATO
  • Canadian and US DoT re-publish studies that piplines are 50x safter, per volume, per mile, than rail, which is often along water
  • Canada begins massive, domestic pipeline building program, cross-country
  • Canada also begins Keystone Export (XL) Pipeline with US, leveraging existing Keystone and other US pipelines, for export to NATO
• Late '00 - US CO2 output drops for first time in decades
  • Only part of it is due to the economic downturn
  • Coal, Petroleum and other usage in Power Plants (most newer are tri-fuel)
  • Gas prices remain $2+/gallon, OPEC does not see Shale as a threat
  • Prices keep investments into Shale profitable, with new investments
  • US increases use of rail, including through Canada, instead of new pipelines
• Early '10s - Increasing EU Demand + Obama anti-Domestic Environmentalism
  • US becomes net exporter of petroleum
  • Natural gas glut increases -- coal now 4x as expensive
  • Fukushima causes Germany retire nuclear power, increasing coal imports
  • US becomes massive next exporter of coal, especially to Europe
  • Obama 1st administration sees 8% CO2 reduction due to Natural Gas alone
  • Ironically, Obama begins war on Shale
  • Keystone XL pipeline is under review, despite protests by Canada, NATO
  • Administration creates new penalties on domestic fossil fuels, over an order of magnitude
  • These penalties ironically do not affect imports, which don't provide Natural Gas, just domestic energy, which is responsible for Natural Gas glut
  • Domestic Shale becomes far less profitable, first bankruptcies occur
  • 2013 - Lac-Megantic, Canada - US Natural Gas Laden Shale train from North Dakota, shipping to Canadian pipelines and other terminals, explodes, incinerating parts of the town, immediately killing 47 people (and dozens after)
  • Canada begins lobbying for the US to build more pipelines, instead of using rail, often
• Mid '10s - OPEC Price War, More Shale + New Bank Bankruptcies
  • US being a net exporter is affecting volume shipments by OPEC
  • OPEC begins price war against American Shale, OPEC+ joins OPEC
  • Floods market with cheaper light crude
  • Gas prices drop below $2/gallon
  • Smaller regional/local banks exposed from 5% to as much as 30%+ investments, up to 50% of Shale companies are now in bankrupcy
  • Remaining Shale and investors go lean, stop all new investments, drillling
• Late '10s - Trump Penalty roll-back, domestic tax incentives
  • OPEC keeps up price war, keeping gas below $2/gallon
  • Cuts penalties back to pre-Obama levels
  • Heeds Canada, NATO, and restarted Keystone XL
  • German and other NATO nations are completely dependent on North American Natural Gas for CO2 emissions and environmental plan -- per Martin-Harper and W. agreements mid-to-late '00s
  • Domestic tax incentives, new tax code penalitize foreign investments, including Oil
  • New stabilize most, but not all, Shale and most banks
  • Remain Shale and investors remain lean, still no new investments
• '20s - Lockdowns, Biden administration restores Obama penalties, cuts all grants
  • Lockdowns wipes out demand, gas remains under $2/gallon
  • Biden administration enters, over doubles Obama-era penalities by sacking domestic Shale/fossil fuels with penalties based on overall CO2 by all nations, not just the US, more Shale and investors bankrupt, sue Biden administration
  • Biden yanks all federal land and Gulf leases -- even those that can be issued by Mexico -- for energy, including in-progress
  • Several small energy companies in-progress bankrupt, other, larger entities that survive, write-off losses, banks and investors sue Biden administration
  • Biden administration ends Keystone XL
  • Biden tells NATO to get Natural Gas from Canada and Russia, not US
  • Canada finally gives up on Keystone XL ... permanently
  • EU and NATO have unchoice words for Biden administration as a result
  • US begins using more coal, no longer a net exporter of petroleum, Natural Gas prices over double
  • By summer 2021, with increased demand recovering from over a year of lockdowns, Biden administration asks OPEC to increase production -- as expected
  • OPEC rebukes Biden, but would only provide oil, not Natural Gas, so CO2 is rising
  • Biden gives OPEC+ (Russia) incentives, US increases its imporation almost an order of magnitude -- still small, but a signficant portion of Russian income (60% overall from all nations)
  • Judge rules Biden administration fossil fuel penalties can only use US domestic rates under interstate commerce law, and cannot penalize base on global output, pollution by China and others, reducing penalties to Obama-era
  • Another judge rules yanking leases to be ex-post-facto and Unconstitutitional, order immediate grant of new leases, review of losses to domestic energy companies
  • But damage is done, many energy companies either bankrupt or write-off in-progress ramp-up to extraction for yanked leases
  • Russia invades Ukraine, Biden administration makes plea to domestic energy
  • No domestic companies want to invest without 10+ years of guarantees not to yank leases or enact penalities against domestic energy after 14 years of it (sans 4 during Trump -- hence the guarantee)
  • Biden administration refuses to accept terms set by domestic energy, stalemate ensues
  • Without domestic energy investments now, prices will only increase and remain inflated for another 5-7 years
  • Biden pleads with OPEC, and OPEC finally agrees to small increases in output, but prices will still remain inflated for years to come without further increases
  • Shale / Natural Gas remains a Canadian only venture, at 1/10th the capability of prior, US investment to the 2nd Obama administration
  • NATO remains tied to Russian energy, even nuclear-heavy France (although less than most others)

Anyone around energy -- domestic or not -- are pretty pissed off at us, including all our allies in NATO that believed the Martin-Harper and W. agreements back in the mid-to-late '00s. We screwed our own allies. We screwed our own security.

Interesting info, thanks for taking the time to share... did you compile this yourself from individual sources? ...or was your observation over time? ...I like to confirm input before I reuse myself.

 

[UCFBS]

Interesting info, thanks for taking the time to share... did you compile this yourself from individual sources? ...or was your observation over time?

I dumped it from memory. But it's pretty much 101 and you'll find many in energy that will confirm the history.


NATO Treaties and Agreements

The Martin-Harper + W. agreements with NATO during the W. administration is what we promised the EU. Canada is still fulfilling them, but we -- the US -- have been stabbing our NATO allies in the back since the Obama administration. All of the 'green energy' plans in Europe are based on North American Natural Gas from Shale extraction.

We might as well pull out of NATO altogther if we're going to **** our allies like we are. Our allies are pretty pissed at us, despite what the US Mass and Social Media says. It's only been amplified with the Russian non-sense ... especially after OPEC refused to increase output after Biden's appeals (as everyone around energy predicted he'd be forced to), and everyone ran to OPEC+ (Russia).

I really invite people to read Canadian media and what they think of us as well. Canada is building pipelines and going big time on extraction. They just have to build longer pipelines to Hudson Bay (not ideal, not 12 months/year) and other outlets, since the XL adds won't take it to the gulf.

Sure, Canada has protestors. But 97% of Canadians understand energy economics. Here in the US, <<50% do. They also know that rail is 50x as bad as pipeline, especially since rail is commonly along rivers too. Heck, the Canadians are still pissed at us for killing them with our rail cars out of North Dakota. They literally hate us for not only not building our own pipelines, but the massive waste of money now that XL is dead.

BTW ...

Shale Didn't Happen Overnight

Shale didn't happen overnight. It took consistent $4+/gallon gas to begin investments, and it takes $2+/gallon gas to keep them going, despite losses.

Again, Shale itself is about Natural Gas more than petroleum too. People don't realize that. We have almost a thousand years of Natural Gas in North America, in addition to over a century of petroleum at current Western consumption rates.

That's why Shale is considered pro-environment, because ...

1. It's Natural Gas w/reduced CO2, NOx and SOx
2. It's the 'best backfill' for solar and wind, until we have enough green, we move to hydrogen-fuel cells for storage-transfer.
3. It keeps gasoline costs up, causing more green investments, like into solar

Again, #3, even Shale is just intermediate. $4+/gallon gas has caused the most 'green' investment too. Shale, and resulting Natural Gas, is just an intermediate term -- for the next 3 decades -- then it can go down.

But in California, lobbying by PG&E has literally destroyed the market. They have control over solar, and it's costing 10x as much as Europe ... just like lobbyists destroyed their fire fighting too. More government means more control by the oligarchy. California -- like with The Sierra Club -- is making green 10x more expensive that it should be.

Great coverage of this ... and how Europe's plan is completely different.




Petroleum, like Natural Gas, Will Never Die

Once petroleum isn't used by cars by 2050, then we can cut our petroleum usage by 75%. But we still need 25% of our current petroleum consumption rate for non-fuels. I don't think people realize ... we'll always need petroleum, along with natural gas.

But it will be 1/4th the current rate of today.

Natural Gas is the backfill. It will always be the emergency backfill until hydrogen is commonly generated and available. That's 50+ years into the future. Everyone's entire 'green' plan is around Natural Gas.

It won't be until the 2070s that will finally change. So whether we buy from Russia or extract it here in North America, it's going to be the reality. Canada is full-on head, but they are 1/10th our population and capabilities, even if they have even more than us overall.

Again, Europe is like the anti-California. It's amazing how bad we are, how much oligarchy controls things.


Over 99% of Nuclear Waste Already Exists

It's just like nuclear waste. Over 99% comes from past weapons production, and regardless of whether we re-use it for nuclear power plants, it's still there. Furthermore, we need to repeal the Carter administration's ban on refining old, spent fuel rods and 'breeding' reactors.

The Carter ban was based on not making new nuclear weapon fuels, at the expense of power, which is just stupid. It's decomposing regardless, and it is more environmentally friendly to actually refine it and harness it. We've done that with warheads, so why can't we do it with spent fuel rods too? Again, stupid.

The only thing the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations did right is start making the US gov't pay for Caskets until Yucca Mountain is opened (and it will never be). That's why the US doesn't have 'cooling ponds' for old spent fuel rods like Japan and elsewhere.

All spent fuel rods are placed into Concrete-Steel 'Caskets' that passively 'dissipate' heat, so no 'active' cooling is needed. That alone is why the US cannot have an accident like Japan did in 2011. But we need to open Yucca Mountain in the end. Why?

Lastly ... new nuclear waste from power generation is less medical waste! So we could shutdown all nuclear power plants tomorrow, and over 50% of our new nuclear waste would still be generated.

Granted, it's still under 1% compared to past weapons production, but versus added, new power generation waste, medical waste is bigger. It's so bad that you'll find over 50% of UN incidents of the nuclear toxic-radiation sickness events in the world over recent decades are due to improperly disposed nuclear waste ... typically outside the US, but even some inside the US until recent regulations.

I wish Americans were educated on all this.

...I like to confirm input before I reuse myself.

I wouldn't use it 'raw' like that, but as a guideline. I could use review too.

It could also be more objective, less partisan. Take out Obama/Biden/Trump and make it about dates and 'changes in administrative support.'

In any case, the US Mass and Social Media act like Obama-Biden are 'going green,' when it's the opposite. The are going 'oligarcy-lobbyist' and actually impeding market-forces that were always going green once gas hit $4/gallon and stayed above $2/gallon.

That's why OPEC tried to break the US domestic energy market when we became a net exporter by 2012+ and definitely 2014-2019. We only got a reprieve when the global lockdowns killed demand by spring of 2020.

Now we're back to it ... and no one is going to invest in Shale without 10+ years of guaranteed non-****ery. I mean, the Biden administration went beyond what the Obama administration did, and took the 'math' that is used to calculate fees, and take all 'penalties' for China's and India's emissions to over double what Obama did.

Even the progressive justices in the courts were like, "You can only cover Interstate commerce, not all pollution globally." I don't think people realize that non-domestic energy doesn't have to pay those penalties! Only domestic!

Shale gives us more than petroleum, but natural gas, which is will always be needed as backfill ... that's something we do not get from overseas petroleum. This has been the biggest 'no brainer' and yet ... looked upon as wrong.

The biggest issue with Shale isn't the extraction either. It's what to do with all the waste water used during extraction after extraction. Injection back into the ground isn't good. We need to have retention areas instead, and let it naturall filter down.

If environmentalists would focus on that, and forcing Shale companies to not do injection, but build retention areas -- even though it costs -- they'd find a lot of allies. But because they are just so anti-Shale in general, no one wants to listen to them.

Just like The Sierra Club on being anti-hydro (and anti-wave), beyond just anti-nuclear. Unlike wind, which comes and goes and there is no consistency, hydro (and wave) are guaranteed (just like nuclear too).

In the absence of new hydro (or wave ... or nuclear), we need a consistent source to supplement . Facebook, Google and others use hydrogen fuel-cell for a reason. It's their primary power generation for data centers, not solar. Solar is a focus, but not consistent enough.

 

[Beavishusker1978]

I dumped it from memory. But it's pretty much 101 and you'll find many in energy that will confirm the history.


NATO Treaties and Agreements

The Martin-Harper + W. agreements with NATO during the W. administration is what we promised the EU. Canada is still fulfilling them, but we -- the US -- have been stabbing our NATO allies in the back since the Obama administration. All of the 'green energy' plans in Europe are based on North American Natural Gas from Shale extraction.

We might as well pull out of NATO altogther if we're going to **** our allies like we are. Our allies are pretty pissed at us, despite what the US Mass and Social Media says. It's only been amplified with the Russian non-sense ... especially after OPEC refused to increase output after Biden's appeals (as everyone around energy predicted he'd be forced to), and everyone ran to OPEC+ (Russia).

I really invite people to read Canadian media and what they think of us as well. Canada is building pipelines and going big time on extraction. They just have to build longer pipelines to Hudson Bay (not ideal, not 12 months/year) and other outlets, since the XL adds won't take it to the gulf.

Sure, Canada has protestors. But 97% of Canadians understand energy economics. Here in the US, <<50% do. They also know that rail is 50x as bad as pipeline, especially since rail is commonly along rivers too. Heck, the Canadians are still pissed at us for killing them with our rail cars out of North Dakota. They literally hate us for not only not building our own pipelines, but the massive waste of money now that XL is dead.

BTW ...

Shale Didn't Happen Overnight

Shale didn't happen overnight. It took consistent $4+/gallon gas to begin investments, and it takes $2+/gallon gas to keep them going, despite losses.

Again, Shale itself is about Natural Gas more than petroleum too. People don't realize that. We have almost a thousand years of Natural Gas in North America, in addition to over a century of petroleum at current Western consumption rates.

That's why Shale is considered pro-environment, because ...

1. It's Natural Gas w/reduced CO2, NOx and SOx
2. It's the 'best backfill' for solar and wind, until we have enough green, we move to hydrogen-fuel cells for storage-transfer.
3. It keeps gasoline costs up, causing more green investments, like into solar

Again, #3, even Shale is just intermediate. $4+/gallon gas has caused the most 'green' investment too. Shale, and resulting Natural Gas, is just an intermediate term -- for the next 3 decades -- then it can go down.

But in California, lobbying by PG&E has literally destroyed the market. They have control over solar, and it's costing 10x as much as Europe ... just like lobbyists destroyed their fire fighting too. More government means more control by the oligarchy. California -- like with The Sierra Club -- is making green 10x more expensive that it should be.

Great coverage of this ...

View embedded media

Petroleum, like Natural Gas, Will Never Die

Once petroleum isn't used by cars by 2050, then we can cut our petroleum usage by 75%. But we still need 25% of our current petroleum consumption rate for non-fuels. I don't think people realize ... we'll always need petroleum, along with natural gas.

But it will be 1/4th the current rate of today.

Natural Gas is the backfill. It will always be the emergency backfill until hydrogen is commonly generated and available. That's 50+ years into the future. Everyone's entire 'green' plan is around Natural Gas.

It won't be until the 2070s that will finally change. So whether we buy from Russia or extract it here in North America, it's going to be the reality. Canada is full-on head, but they are 1/10th our population and capabilities, even if they have even more than us overall.


Over 99% of Nuclear Waste Already Exists

It's just like nuclear waste. Over 99% comes from past weapons production, and regardless of whether we re-use it for nuclear power plants, it's still there. Furthermore, we need to repeal the Carter administration's ban on refining old, spent fuel rods and 'breeding' reactors.

The Carter ban was based on not making new nuclear weapon fuels, at the expense of power, which is just stupid. It's decomposing regardless, and it is more environmentally friendly to actually refine it and harness it. We've done that with warheads, so why can't we do it with spent fuel rods too? Again, stupid.

The only thing the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations did right is start making the US gov't pay for Caskets until Yucca Mountain is opened (and it will never be). That's why the US doesn't have 'cooling ponds' for old spent fuel rods like Japan and elsewhere.

All spent fuel rods are placed into Concrete-Steel 'Caskets' that passively 'dissipate' heat, so no 'active' cooling is needed. That alone is why the US cannot have an accident like Japan did in 2011. But we need to open Yucca Mountain in the end. Why?

Lastly ... new nuclear waste from power generation is less medical waste! So we could shutdown all nuclear power plants tomorrow, and over 50% of our new nuclear waste would still be generated.

Granted, it's still under 1% compared to past weapons production, but versus added, new power generation waste, medical waste is bigger. It's so bad that you'll find over 50% of UN incidents of the nuclear toxic-radiation sickness events in the world over recent decades are due to improperly disposed nuclear waste ... typically outside the US, but even some inside the US until recent regulations.

I wish Americans were educated on all this.


I wouldn't use it 'raw' like that, but as a guideline. I could use review too.

It could also be more objective, less partisan. Take out Obama/Biden/Trump and make it about dates and 'changes in administrative support.'

In any case, the US Mass and Social Media act like Obama-Biden are 'going green,' when it's the opposite. The are going 'oligarcy-lobbyist' and actually impeding market-forces that were always going green.

Shale gives us more than petroleum, but natural gas, which is will always be needed as backfill ... that's something we do not get from overseas petroleum. This has been the biggest 'no brainer' and yet ... looked upon as wrong.

The biggest issue with Shale isn't the extraction either. It's what to do with all the waste water used during extraction after extraction. Injection back into the ground isn't good. We need to have retention areas instead, and let it naturall filter down.

If environmentalists would focus on that, and forcing Shale companies to not do injection, but build retention areas -- even though it costs -- they'd find a lot of allies. But because they are just so anti-Shale in general, no one wants to listen to them.

Just like The Sierra Club on being anti-hydro (and anti-wave), beyond just anti-nuclear. Unlike wind, which comes and goes and there is no consistency, hydro (and wave) are guaranteed (just like nuclear too).

In the absence of new hydro (or wave ... or nuclear), we need a consistent source to supplement . Facebook, Google and others use hydrogen fuel-cell for a reason. It's their primary power generation for data centers, not solar. Solar is a focus, but not consistent enough.

Why do you say that keystone won't take oil to the gulf? It already does. XL is just a shortcut to Kansas and would blend light oil in Montana so fewer solvents are needed for the oil to flow.

 

[UCFBS]

Why do you say that keystone won't take oil to the gulf? It already does. XL is just a shortcut to Kansas and would blend light oil in Montana so fewer solvents are needed for the oil to flow.

It is ... but did you read the full plan? I don't think people realize how much volume is going to be limited, and how much it was going to save overall ... especially for NATO.

We (US) are still using rail for a reason. That's not good.

This is not an issue in Canada. As I said, they have their protests, but they are still building pipelines east, and CNG terminals for NATO ... as the US is considered 'closed.'

It's going to get really bad for us if we keep going down this path. Again, our allies hate us.

I'm at the point I honestly wish we'd just let Europeans come in and run the energy policy in this country. I'd love to have the Swiss run our environmental and healthcare policies too.

And American consummers will finally wake up to what things really cost!

We are too ignorant of a nation to really do anything proper. We really don't understand what things really cost, and think socialism will lower middle class taxes. I'm fine with going more socialist ... as long as Americans recognize it's about what we all give up, not what we get.

I mean, businesses pay less tax in Europe, middle class pays more income, and there are regressive VAT taxes on all consumption too.

We cannot keep running this country like we have. The left are no longer Liberal, and it scares most of my Liberal Socialist friends ... who are getting unfriended by Progressive Americans at high rates on my social media.

We have to start being smart, not stupid. We have to stop interfereing with things using interstate commerce claims. It's why our energy policy is beyond stupid, and there is no more domestic investment.

Everyone is tired of losing money.

 

[UCFBS]

BTW ...

Americans need to realize that gasoline will never be under $3/gallon again ... unless OPEC floods the market. It's going to stay closer to $4/gallon, even if we have domestic supply.

This is good for green energy ... market forces -- when not ****ed with by government -- will keep moving green. But we need it for the future of NATO and ourselves too.

Natural gas is the focus. Keystone XL wouldn't have lowered prices. But it would have helped our NATO allies far more. But it's dead, and the Canadians won't join us every again. They are building east, not south, now.

But $5+/gallon, possibly $8/gallon, is likely what we're going to have for another 2-3 years, minimum, and 5-7, for the rest of 2020, very likely. It all depends on how much Europe will cut themselves off from OPEC+ (Russia).

And how much OPEC is willing to cross OPEC+ (Russia). But even that doesn't give us Natural Gas. OPEC is realizing a depression is coming, so they might try to avoid it.

No domestic energy investment is happening. The US is closed for domestic business in every area, especially energy, unless the US Congress passes an 'end to ****ery' bill. Fat chance.

Shale is still our best future, and our allies, not only from a domestic energy independence, but we're still going to need Natural Gas as a backfill until 2050-2070, at a minimum, until hydrogen-fuel cell is a staple in our energy economy.

 

[UCFloridaTech]

It is ... but did you read the full plan? I don't think people realize how much volume is going to be limited, and how much it was going to save overall ... especially for NATO.

We (US) are still using rail for a reason. That's not good.

This is not an issue in Canada. As I said, they have their protests, but they are still building pipelines east, and CNG terminals for NATO ... as the US is considered 'closed.'

It's going to get really bad for us if we keep going down this path. Again, our allies hate us.

I'm at the point I honestly wish we'd just let Europeans come in and run the energy policy in this country. I'd love to have the Swiss run our environmental and healthcare policies too.

And American consummers will finally wake up to what things really cost!

We are too ignorant of a nation to really do anything proper. We really don't understand what things really cost, and think socialism will lower middle class taxes. I'm fine with going more socialist ... as long as Americans recognize it's about what we all give up, not what we get.

I mean, businesses pay less tax in Europe, middle class pays more income, and there are regressive VAT taxes on all consumption too.

We cannot keep running this country like we have. The left are no longer Liberal, and it scares most of my Liberal Socialist friends ... who are getting unfriended by Progressive Americans at high rates on my social media.

We have to start being smart, not stupid. We have to stop interfereing with things using interstate commerce claims. It's why our energy policy is beyond stupid, and there is no more domestic investment.

Everyone is tired of losing money.

I hate the concept of taxing income (production) vs sales (consumption)... What behaviors are we promoting with the current logic?

Slash income, raise sales... Seems to be a better equalizer for the general public... Stop penalizing working hard, start rewarding planning/saving.

 

[UCFBS]

I hate the concept of taxing income (production) vs sales (consumption)... What behaviors are we promoting with the current logic?

Slash income, raise sales... Seems to be a better equalizer for the general public... Stop penalizing working hard, start rewarding planning/saving.

I can see all sides of many arguments. But one I've put forth ... most true Liberals don't have a problem with.

Flat Tax, Progressive Charity, Rate

Charities are far better than government, and by using a number of 'rating' agencies, we can separate the good charities from those that are ... well ... 'political/lobbying.' In fact, lobbying would be outlawed from those charities that qualify.

My biggest problem today is that pro-big government folk consider government not only to be a charity, but consider charities 'competition.' In every 'fair share' argument, they count charity as 'unqualified write-offs.' Kinda sick if you ask me.

As Americans, the second we started looking to government as a charity and wealth redistribution entity ... we lost. It's not that they hold a gun to our head and take half our sandwich, it's that they come back for the other half to pay for their Towers of Babel built around it.

Charities have to actually budget ... government no longer does.

Even the biggest overhead charities, like The United Way is regularly criticized of being, is far more efficient than the US Federal Government.

 

[Cubs79]

I hate the concept of taxing income (production) vs sales (consumption)... What behaviors are we promoting with the current logic?

Slash income, raise sales... Seems to be a better equalizer for the general public... Stop penalizing working hard, start rewarding planning/saving.

Sale tax is a regressive tax, the higher it is the more of a tax burden you put on the poor and middle class. I live in a state with no income tax, but the highest (or 2nd highest) sales tax in the country and a significant portion, if not most, people in this state, would pay less in taxes if they reduced the sales tax and had a low (just 2-3%) income tax.

 

[Cubs79]

I can see all sides of many arguments. But one I've put forth ... most true Liberals don't have a problem with.

Flat Tax, Progressive Charity, Rate

Charities are far better than government, and by using a number of 'rating' agencies, we can separate the good charities from those that are ... well ... 'political/lobbying.' In fact, lobbying would be outlawed from those charities that qualify.

My biggest problem today is that pro-big government folk consider government not only to be a charity, but consider charities 'competition.' In every 'fair share' argument, they count charity as 'unqualified write-offs.' Kinda sick if you ask me.

As Americans, the second we started looking to government as a charity and wealth redistribution entity ... we lost. It's not that they hold a gun to our head and take half our sandwich, it's that they come back for the other half to pay for their Towers of Babel built around it.

Charities have to actually budget ... government no longer does.

Even the biggest overhead charities, like The United Way is regularly criticized of being, is far more efficient than the US Federal Government.

Who are you considering pro big government? Defense contractors? Banks we have to bail out? Subsidies for certain industries and corporations?

 

[UCFloridaTech]

Perhaps progressive tiers (like income) on higher value items like exotic cars, planes, etc... Not too many poor folks buying those, and if they are, shame on them, but at least they paid their fare share, no?

 

[Cubs79]

Perhaps progressive tiers (like income) on higher value items like exotic cars, planes, etc... Not too many poor folks buying those, and if they are, shame on them, but at least they paid their fare share, no?

Anyone who buys things pays sales tax, they are already paying the same percentage as wealthy people with sales tax. What you are wanting is to shift even more of a burden from the wealthy to the middle and lower class .

 

[UCFloridaTech]

Anyone who buys things pays sales tax, they are already paying the same percentage as wealthy people with sales tax. What you are wanting is to shift even more of a burden from the wealthy to the middle and lower class .

You clearly aren't understanding the concept I'm suggesting, revise sales tax rates the amount to account for reduced income tax.

Why are we penalizing people working harder to make more money... Penalize poor spending habits instead.

 

[DaShuckster]

Why are we penalizing people working harder to make more money... Penalize poor spending habits instead.

Does a society with prudent, carefully considered spending habits = a robust economy?

 

[UCFBS]

Perhaps progressive tiers (like income) on higher value items like exotic cars, planes, etc...

Luxury taxes. Some states already have them. Unfortunately it doesn't raise much money at all.

Even a 70% federal income tax (so 85 to >100% overall taxation rate, including SS/Medicare, depending on the state) on the top 2% won't raise more than $0.25T/year.

Same with gutting the US military by 70% of personnel and capability, which would only be a 30% savings as the DoD budget has a lot of costs, from VA to various humanitarian aid (a heavy DoD burden), for another $0.25T/year.

The Federal budget, even pre-pandemic, was only 1/7th for defense ... the smallest it's ever been since pre-WWII.

Not too many poor folks buying those, and if they are, shame on them, but at least they paid their fare share, no?

The problem is the revenue just isn't there at the top end.

 

[Cubs79]

You clearly aren't understanding the concept I'm suggesting, revise sales tax rates the amount to account for reduced income tax.

Why are we penalizing people working harder to make more money... Penalize poor spending habits instead.

I dont know what your first sentence means. Revising sales tax to make up for no income would raise the sales tax, and would make people pay more for buying things, which means the poorer people would be paying a higher % of their income in taxes than the wealthy.

People who make the most money arent always the hardest workers, that whole way of thinking is simply wrong. Most people with serious money in this country inherited a lot of it, they arent rich because they are the hardest working people. I am pretty sure someone roofing a house in mid July is working a lot harder than a Wall st banker sitting in a comfortable office all day. You cant quantify someones work ethic so it is pointless to bring it into a discussion about taxes.

 

[UCFBS]

I dont know what your first sentence means. Revising sales tax to make up for no income would raise the sales tax, and would make people pay more for buying things, which means the poorer people would be paying a higher % of their income in taxes than the wealthy.

That's how it works in Europe ... far more than the US. Why? The high income earners don't amount to much. Europe generally refuses to have wealth taxes in general, because it destroys investment. Greece is a perfect example. Spain keeps dipping into the pot too.

People who make the most money arent always the hardest workers, that whole way of thinking is simply wrong.

What about the person that works 80+ hours/week, let alone 2 people who work 160+ hours/week ... but pay the same taxes as 1 person who works only 40 hours/week, who lives with another who doesn't?!

Most people with serious money in this country inherited a lot of it,

That is a blatant lie! Over 90% of people with a net-worth of $1M inherited less than $20K. That is a left-wing falsehood that needs to end. Especially given the media is $3-8M net-worth, depending on how it is defined, yet they have a lifestyle that is no 'richer' than the middle class in everything from their home to their cars.

they arent rich because they are the hardest working people.

You know ... you insult a number of people on here with this.

I know I've been 70% away from my wife because of my career, and her me as well for her career the past half-dozen years or so. Some of us choose to sacrifice.

My father did the same for my family too. Like many, he was self-employed/small-business most of his life. You push people like him to Trump and others.

You really need to stop and listen to the successful small business owners for a change.

Stop arguing like an Elite and a far left winger. You're losing the class of people that used to employ half of this country. Many of us are tired of the demonizations.

You're like the misguided Greeks who sent others off to find gold, along with the Romans who tried to integrate everyone. Some people just don't fit, and you have to accept that.

I am pretty sure someone roofing a house in mid July is working a lot harder than a Wall st banker sitting in a comfortable office all day.

And you're ****ing with his income as an independent contractor too. Many of them gross $200K+, sometimes $400K+, before their Schedule C, and bring home less than $50K overall. Seriously.

You cant quantify someones work ethic so it is pointless to bring it into a discussion about taxes.

You should really look hard at what you're arguing. You repeatedly take the Maddow and other talking points and argue them as if it's the norm.

You demonize using outlier examples. And you fail to recognize a lot of us have issues with Wall Street too. But we don't vote for penalties on the small businesses and self-employed ...

But calling them Wall Street. And that's the problem. You keep pushing for laws on hard working people, trying to capture that <<0.1% who are rich, lawyered up and possibly don't even have domestic investments.

 

[Crazyhole]

Anyone who buys things pays sales tax, they are already paying the same percentage as wealthy people with sales tax. What you are wanting is to shift even more of a burden from the wealthy to the middle and lower class .

Simple solution: at the end of the year, everybody gets a refund check for 5- 10k worth of sales tax remitted. That way, it isn't regressive.

 

[UCFBS]

Simple solution: at the end of the year, everybody gets a refund check for 5- 10k worth of sales tax remitted. That way, it isn't regressive.

Many have suggested this. Before recently, I wouldn't have said it's feasible, let alone plausible. But now? We're basically doing this now, anyway, so ... why not?

The problem is, as always ... once we have a VAT/national sales tax, they won't get rid of the national income tax. We'd have to repeal it, and I don't see others doing that first.

 

[Crazyhole]

Many have suggested this. Before recently, I wouldn't have said it's feasible, let alone plausible. But now? We're basically doing this now, anyway, so ... why not?

The problem is, as always ... once we have a VAT/national sales tax, they won't get rid of the national income tax. We'd have to repeal it, and I don't see others doing that first.

It would take a group of politicians in DC working with the states to make it happen, but it makes far more sense than the system we have now. In a way, you could actually combine it with UBI advocacy and that would help gain traction from the left. Just go to a sales tax couple with a 1,000 dollar rebate check every month. Both sides should be satisfied.

 

[UCFBS]

It would take a group of politicians in DC working with the states to make it happen, but it makes far more sense than the system we have now. In a way, you could actually combine it with UBI advocacy and that would help gain traction from the left. Just go to a sales tax couple with a 1,000 dollar rebate check every month. Both sides should be satisfied.

Yep, UBI is how it would happen ... but I just don't see the repeal of income tax happening. The government never gives up power, and it would take an US Constitutional Amendment, which is unlikely to happen.

 

[Crazyhole]

Yep, UBI is how it would happen ... but I just don't see the repeal of income tax happening. The government never gives up power, and it would take an US Constitutional Amendment, which is unlikely to happen.

Maybe, but it still bugs me that only the left can make progress on their agenda. It seems like the right could do the same thing if they just got their crap together.

 

[UCFBS]

Maybe, but it still bugs me that only the left can make progress on their agenda. It seems like the right could do the same thing if they just got their crap together.

The right needs to flip to saying abortion is, ultimately, a civil right, but say they are going to lead by example in their lives, not legislation, and start pushing civil rights in general. They can then 'hit back' at the left by saying doctors must be able to opt out of performing abortions and other 'right to choose' in their careers too.

They need to start listening to the Libertarians in the party, and they will see swells of voters. The rest of the right-wing is not going to leave, not even the Christian right, over it either. Where would they go? To the party that is looking to discriminate against religion?

 

[goodknightfl]

Biden is at fault in a Bigly way, but it isn't all on him. Part of the surplus was reduced demand with all the shutdowns. That being said without the Biden screw ups, We would be in a much better place today than we are.