Florida HB 631 Beach Access

[UCFKnightDiver]

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/r...ake-many-of-floridas-beaches-private-10231813

Thoughts?

I don't like this at all. Had major problems with beach access in Walton County (30A between Panama City Beach and Destin) in the past. This seems like it will exacerbate the problem.

 

[UCFKnight85]

It'll be good here in the Clearwater/St Pete area. There are so many frigging disputes between private property owners, local government, and business owners. The local government has gone completely overboard in passing ordinances to railroad private property; this bill at least establishes the fact that they would need to get a court to agree with them before they do this in the future.

 

[UCFWayne]

there needs to be more public access beaches in some areas

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

In Walton County (30A between Panama City Beach and Destin), property owners argued that the mean high water line was based on a 20 yr average and included survey data, etc., and due to erosion this line was now always in the water. Therefore, no beach access at all. They errected fences, got the beach chair companies to harrass the public, etc. I was literally sitting in a chair at/in the water and was getting harrassed and yelled at by one of these individuals, it was terrible. Then Walton County passed an ordance that prohibited property owners from doing this. This bill essentially walks back that ordance, and I fear will lead to more of the fences, signs, and harrassment that we used to see.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

If I owned a beach house I wouldn't want people in my backyard either. Are there really that many beaches that are only private home owners? I've never been to a beach that wasn't behind a hotel, a public area or park. I also don't see how they are really going to enforce this either. I seriously doubt municipalities are going to have cops combing the beaches kicking people out.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

If I owned a beach house I wouldn't want people in my backyard either. Are there really that many beaches that are only private home owners? I've never been to a beach that wasn't behind a hotel, a public area or park. I also don't see how they are really going to enforce this either. I seriously doubt municipalities are going to have cops combing the beaches kicking people out.

It's not just private home owners, it's beach communities, hotels, condominiums, etc. 60% of Florida beaches are privately owned. That's a lot of beach. I can empathize with private owners, but for example in Walton County you would have beaches that were crowded because they were small public beaches, and then miles of unused beaches that were privately owned with fences, signs, sometimes with people that were out there just to harrass you so that you didn't use a big pretty much completely empty beach. And they used arguments like the one I posted above to keep people off even the "wet sand" portion.

 

[Happy Hands]

Well, sometimes capitalism is shitty. Owning land has always been a weird concept.

Rousseau:
"The first person who, having enclosed a plot of land, took it into his head to say this is mine and found people simple enough to believe him was the true founder of civil society. What crimes, wars, murders, what miseries and horrors would the human race have been spared, had some one pulled up the stakes or filled in the ditch and cried out to his fellow men: "Do not listen to this imposter. You are lost if you forget that the fruits of the earth belong to all and the earth to no one! Thug life!"

 

[Poolside Knight]

Stupid idea.

I don't like how perceived partisan sides stay consistent at the State level. What is a good idea for one of the other States can be terrible for Florida or vice versa. Florida's coastline & Water is the State's best natural attraction, leave it open too as many people as possible.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

How is this partisan? Would you be OK with random people setting up a picnic in your backyard? There are hundreds of miles of public beaches that most people already go to.

 

[UCFBS]

As a Libertarian, my default viewpoint is that private property is private until the state, in a court of law, can prove rights and other access to it. Any law circumventing due process to seize private rights is doing exatly that, circumventing due process. The state and local has to prove it in a court of law first.

This is one of the most heavily abused things the state and local does -- especially for the benefit of big developers. Always keep that in mind.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Stupid idea.

I don't like how perceived partisan sides stay consistent at the State level. What is a good idea for one of the other States can be terrible for Florida or vice versa. Florida's coastline & Water is the State's best natural attraction, leave it open too as many people as possible.

This bill was largely championed by a Democrat down south and had support from many Republicans and Democrats throughout the State. Many other Republicans and Democrats opposed the bill.

There was nothing partisan about the bill. It had bipartisan support or opposition on each side of the ISSUE. You are once again just assuming that everything is partisan.

 

[Poolside Knight]

This bill was largely championed by a Democrat down south and had support from many Republicans and Democrats throughout the State. Many other Republicans and Democrats opposed the bill.

There was nothing partisan about the bill. It had bipartisan support or opposition on each side of the ISSUE. You are once again just assuming that everything is partisan.

once again? I actually have complimented Scott a lot on other recent decisions and his overall job performance the last few years

You are a hot head that just loves to argue.

 

[UCFBS]

This bill was largely championed by a Democrat down south and had support from many Republicans and Democrats throughout the State. Many other Republicans and Democrats opposed the bill.
There was nothing partisan about the bill. It had bipartisan support or opposition on each side of the ISSUE. You are once again just assuming that everything is partisan.

once again? I actually have complimented Scott a lot on other recent decisions and his overall job performance the last few years
You are a hot head that just loves to argue.

The Eminent Domain argument crosses all parties, in all sorts of directions.

Libertarians like myself see this as an Eminent Domain argument, pure and simple. We tend to be like that, in things like this.

Democrats and Republicans can see it that way, or as an exception/not the same effect, while other Democrats and Republicans will always side with developers, and even argue this isn't the same too.

My #1 complaint with Trump, since Day 1, even back when he really was a practicing Libertarian almost 2 decades ago, has always been his stance on Eminent Domain. It's incompatible with Libertarianism.

You can often tell who are 'big business' Democrats and Republicans on items like this.

 

[DHodges34]

How is this partisan? Would you be OK with random people setting up a picnic in your backyard? There are hundreds of miles of public beaches that most people already go to.

But the beach isn't their backyard. If my backyard was up against a public area I would expect random people setting up a picnic there. The beach is public and should remain that way. If they want it to themselves they better be ready to fund the dredge and pump beach "restoration" idiocy that goes on every few years.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

But the beach isn't their backyard. If my backyard was up against a public area I would expect random people setting up a picnic there. The beach is public and should remain that way. If they want it to themselves they better be ready to fund the dredge and pump beach "restoration" idiocy that goes on every few years.

The Brevard County property appraiser disagrees.

 

[UCFBS]

But the beach isn't their backyard. If my backyard was up against a public area I would expect random people setting up a picnic there. The beach is public and should remain that way. If they want it to themselves they better be ready to fund the dredge and pump beach "restoration" idiocy that goes on every few years.

The Brevard County property appraiser disagrees.

Last time I checked, the local/state actually requires them to help fund those projects, if they want them to affect their property.

This is where we get into the BLM and rancher disputes too. Where the BLM changes the terms of agreements, even after private ranchers have expended serious amounts of time and money over decades. No one gives private owners any credit for their past investments in the matter either -- especially when they do it of their own initiative, and even file permits and get approvals (so it's on-the-record).

Sorry, but my blatant libertarianism is with the private owners, especially those who expend serious amounts of their own money to 'keep up to code' and already 'did what the state says.'

 

[DHodges34]

Last time I checked, the local/state actually requires them to help fund those projects, if they want them to affect their property.

This is where we get into the BLM and rancher disputes too. Where the BLM changes the terms of agreements, even after private ranchers have expended serious amounts of time and money over decades. No one gives private owners any credit for their past investments in the matter either -- especially when they do it of their own initiative, and even file permits and get approvals (so it's on-the-record).

Sorry, but my blatant libertarianism is with the private owners, especially those who expend serious amounts of their own money to 'keep up to code' and already 'did what the state says.'

I honestly don't know the answer but are you saying beachfront property owners pay above and beyond the same property tax millage rate I pay even though I'm four blocks from the beach? I don't believe that's the case.

 

[DHodges34]

The Brevard County property appraiser disagrees.

I wasn't aware of that, I wish they'd annex it then - at the end of the day I strongly believe the beach should be public.

No one is putting fences on the beach in Brevard anyway due to sea turtle nests so no worries on this actually being enforced.

 

[UCFBS]

I honestly don't know the answer but are you saying beachfront property owners pay above and beyond the same property tax millage rate I pay even though I'm four blocks from the beach? I don't believe that's the case.

You think we're talking property taxes? We're talking things you don't have to pay for, because you don't own their types of easements and regulated land.

This is where ... unless you've been there .. you won't understand. You'll just think it's something you already pay, like taxes.

A major reason I got out into the country, and bought agriculturally zoned land -- with just a basic easement at the front (where the road runs) -- is to get away from the city and others being able to tell me I must expend funds to do what they say.

 

[UCFBS]

I wasn't aware of that, I wish they'd annex it then - at the end of the day I strongly believe the beach should be public.

Eminent Domain combined with Ex-post-facto Totalitarianism ... both Barack Obama and Donald Trump would approve.

No one is putting fences on the beach in Brevard anyway due to sea turtle nests so no worries on this actually being enforced.

I think you're actually, even if indirectly, making the point. Long-time owners understand things better than the government.

Soon you'll be supporting ranchers in Nevada.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

I wasn't aware of that, I wish they'd annex it then - at the end of the day I strongly believe the beach should be public.

No one is putting fences on the beach in Brevard anyway due to sea turtle nests so no worries on this actually being enforced.

That's the thing. The cops aren't going to be out there enforcing this en masse. There may be a few NIMBY jackasses that will throw a hissy fit about it but for the most part if people are being respectful and not leaving trash all over the place they will be fine. I view this the same way I view the open container rules for tailgating. If you're being a dumb drunk asshole before and after the waiver time then it gives the police an option to get rid of you. If you're chill and not causing a seen you'll be fine.

 

[DHodges34]

You think we're talking property taxes? We're talking things you don't have to pay for, because you don't own their types of easements and regulated land.

This is where ... unless you've been there .. you won't understand.

So is that a yes? I asked a question since as usual you were professing to know all, and your answer was basically to say it was a stupid question. I'll be a little more specific - are you saying that every few years when the county pays to have heavy machinery driven all over the beach dumping dirt they pass off as sand, that beachfront property owners are directly funding a portion of that?

 

[UCFBS]

That's the thing. The cops aren't going to be out there enforcing this en masse. There may be a few NIMBY jackasses that will throw a hissy fit about it but for the most part if people are being respectful and not leaving trash all over the place they will be fine. I view this the same way I view the open container rules for tailgating. If you're being a dumb drunk asshole before and after the waiver time then it gives the police an option to get rid of you. If you're chill and not causing a seen you'll be fine.

Kinda like the rachers in Nevada ... and, even more so, Oregon (how did the government get away with double-jeopardy in Oregon?)

Local law enforcement likes them and works with them. In Nevada, the BLM's own studies showed the land was better off with the ranchers, and the BLM's own contractors harmed the environment even worse -- evidence withheld, hence the mistrial -- beyond the government and the Progressive media lying to the public, they did it in court too.

The problem is people who are absolutist on this issue. Who don't respect the private citizens who respect the environment better than the government, let alone the government wants land it can provide to developers years down the road. Even worse? I cannot understand Progressives who say Conservatives shouldn't complain about undocumented residents allegedly causing a burden on the taxpayer, but then turn around and tell the government to use their guns against American citizens (ranchers) who are allegedly causing a burden on the taxpayers.

I also love how the government even drags Native Americans in, and then they find out the US federal government is still like Andrew Jackson, and serving the rich white developers in the end, years down the road.

Which is why I really dislike a lot of people saying people are benefiting from having beaches via the taxpayers.

E.g., My boss at work is fighting this non-sense right now.

I.e., Because they put up a gate, the county stop maintaining the public access road. They took the gate down, but the county still won't maintain the public access road, and expects them to repair it before they will, even though the county neglected it for decades. Hence why they finally put up a gate.

It's almost at the point of lawyers, and my boss really doesn't have the money to take on city hall.

 

[Happy Hands]

I got kicked out of the beach in Cancun once. I told the security guard for the resort that on one can own the beach and that I'm free to swim where I want. He started to call the Mexican police and I ran away like a little bitch. I will hold on to my ideals until faced with Mexican prison.

 

[UCFKnight85]

So is that a yes? I asked a question since as usual you were professing to know all, and your answer was basically to say it was a stupid question. I'll be a little more specific - are you saying that every few years when the county pays to have heavy machinery driven all over the beach dumping dirt they pass off as sand, that beachfront property owners are directly funding a portion of that?

I would assume there’s a special tax for that in their property taxes no? I live in an unincorporated area and we have special taxes that were designated as part of this development to cover certain things unique to the community

 

[DHodges34]

I would assume there’s a special tax for that in their property taxes no? I live in an unincorporated area and we have special taxes that were designated as part of this development to cover certain things unique to the community

It makes sense but I’m not sure, I’ll have to check into it...I like to blame condo owners for pretty much everything so it’ll be pretty inconvenient if that turns out to be the case lol.

 

[DHodges34]

I would assume there’s a special tax for that in their property taxes no? I live in an unincorporated area and we have special taxes that were designated as part of this development to cover certain things unique to the community

Just checked in with a friend who is a realtor in Brevard and sells a lot of beachfront real estate. He says there is no special tax or assessment paid by beachfront residents of Brevard.

And @UCFBS I’m not going to get into a discussion about something in Nevada I know nothing about but as someone with multiple family members who have dedicated their careers to Ag I’d like to point out the huge difference in environmental awareness between the average rancher and the average snowbird who spends five months a year in their beachfront condo.

 

[UCFBS]

Just checked in with a friend who is a realtor in Brevard and sells a lot of beachfront real estate. He says there is no special tax or assessment paid by beachfront residents of Brevard.

That's not what I said! You're continuing to miss the point! Sigh ...

When the local/state government comes in to do something, they expect the private owners to do the same thing! That's why it's not a special tax or assessment. It would never be one! Why? Because it's a private owner responsibility!

It's just that the local/state either requires them to do something, or they will charge them for doing it. Not a tax. Not an assessment. It's a bill, invoice, from their selected contractor. That's what I'm talking about!

And @UCFBS I’m not going to get into a discussion about something in Nevada I know nothing about but as someone with multiple family members who have dedicated their careers to Ag I’d like to point out the huge difference in environmental awareness between the average rancher and the average snowbird who spends five months a year in their beachfront condo.

Okay, that's fair enough.

I was just making the point that I trust private citizens more than the government.

 

[Knight_Light]

Public tax payers spent millions and millions of $$$ to replenish those beaches after the last few years of storms and right afterward, have those same beaches become off limits to the public.

#smart

 

[UCFBS]

Public tax payers spent millions and millions of $$$ to replenish thise beaches after the last few years of storms and right afterward, have those same beaches become off limits to the public.
#smart

Was it the same beaches? And who will maintain them now?

Understand I've seen it both ways. I've seen the city/county/state screw people over, wholesale, forcing them to pay for improvements they didn't agree to, and I've seen owners game the taxpayer too.

 

[ucflee]

Public tax payers spent millions and millions of $$$ to replenish thise beaches after the last few years of storms and right afterward, have those same beaches become off limits to the public.

#smart

And those same properties are most likely covered by Citizens Insurance. Close our access, fine, take away Citizens and replenishment or any other storm mitigation.

No one should be able to own the beach.