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Gun Policy in America

sirdingydang

Golden Knight
Sep 4, 2008
7,785
211
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Below is a post my liberal, hunting friend made on Facebook and I would appreciate it if those of you who are gun owners would way in seriously on his ideas:

Let me preface this by saying that IF I were, for whatever reason the person who had to say "yes" of "no" to using the "no-fly list" as part of the background check for purchasing firearms, I would most likely say "yeah sure" and hope that the list was being built in a responsible way.

The problem, though, is we have NO IDEA how this list is being made, and what is being asked here is to curtail Constitutionally protected rights without due process. At which point we are side-stepping both the 2nd and 14th Amendments. (Our friends at the ACLU agree that there is a problem here: https://www.aclu.org/…/until-no-fly-list-fixed-it-shouldnt-…)

"BUT GUNS!" you'll say.

Yes, people do horrible things with guns.

We can't just say "but guns!" every time someone wants to enact questionable laws just like we, as liberals, called bullshit on "but terrorism!" every time Bush and the Republicans tried to do something similar.

The real statement here is "BUT (I don't care about) GUNS!" and that is fine, but you can't really be suggesting we subvert due process and the rule of law because you don't care about guns.

I'm going to guess that if you remove firearms from the equation, you're going to see a very different attitude, from the same people, towards curtailing constitutional rights based on names being included on some clandestine list.

Liberals, for the most part (myself included), didn't like the idea of the no-fly list as a concept when it simply involved not flying. (Your right to fly on an airplane, in case there is any question, is not mentioned in or protected by the Constitution.) So, I think its weird that suddenly, because guns, these concerns have vanished. Suddenly, this is not only a good list, it should be used to curtail rights.

Look, I HATE invoking the Constitution when discussing firearms because I think it is generally a lazy way to make a point, but in this instance, it CLEARLY demands we discuss the constitution.

Oddly enough, and it makes me question my own judgement, the NRA proposed the most reasonable way of handling this: When someone who is on the no-fly list attempts to purchase a firearm, they are stopped from doing so, they are then flagged and it prompts an investigation and if it turns out everything was on the up n up that person gets removed from the list, gets to go buy the firearm he or she wanted and everyone is happy.

Or, maybe it doesn't work out that way. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered because the Orlando shooter was investigated twice and neither time did they come up with anything that alarmed them.

Only in retrospect can we really say "he shouldn't have been allowed to buy those guns". Only now do we know that those investigations returned the wrong results, but we're still not sure why. And I'm not sure that we could, without knowing what we know now, have justified barring him from purchasing firearms.

Hell, if anything, it would be easy to push back against that suggestion and say "he was investigated twice and they didn't find anything". If they had, then logically, he would have been charged.

But he wasn't because they didn't.

(follow me here)

How many of us well meaning, civil rights/liberties championing,‪#‎NotAllMuslims‬ tweeting liberals would rush to the defense of an American man of Middle Eastern descent being denied his Constitutional rights after being twice investigated without having been found to have any terrorist ties?

Be honest with yourself here, forget what we know he did and think about this in the abstract. You would view such a thing as a true injustice -- you would see this as a clear sign that his co-workers were bigoted, probably Trump supporters(!), who didn't like him because of his ancestry and the government was placating their paranoia about scary men of middle eastern descent.

Really let that whole scenario roll around in your head for a few minutes. I'll bet a solid 50% of my friends would, at a minimum passively express irritation with such a thing, even if you don't care about guns.

Now, lets jump back to today, where we have a lot of details, even if his exact motivations are still unclear.

Even if universal background checks that cross referenced no fly lists had been in place it would not have stopped him from purchasing anything. He, based on reporting was not on the no fly list, after all, he had been investigated twice and charged zero times. Even if special licensing would have been required, he likely would not have been prevented from buying them because of the nature of his job. He seems to have been licensed in every way the state requires. And had there been more requirements, there is little reason to think he would not have gone through the process to acquire those licenses as well.

So, what is my point?

Well, my point here is not to say that nothing can be done, it is to say that we shouldn't simply do things for the sake of doing them. We shouldn't allow emotions to override clear thinking and good judgement, we shouldn't dismiss ideas because of who they come from, or what team suggests them. We need to focus on effective change.

▻ If we want universal background checks to work, we need to close up loopholes that allow private sellers to legally sell to any dumb person with enough money in their hands.

There is no reason for it to be easier to buy a firearm from a stranger in a parking lot than to buy one from a licensed dealer. We should require that private sales be processed through licensed dealers the same way a purchase FROM that licensed dealer would work. Background check, applicable waiting period, etc... It opens up a new revenue stream for licensed dealers, and it safe guards the seller by preventing him from inadvertently selling to someone who is forbidden from owning a firearm, or from being a suspect if the firearm they sold is used in the commission of a crime.

And I am not suggestion some national gun registry, just a simple check that says as far as the government is concerned everyone can own what they are attempting to purchase, just like the one that is in place now, but better.

If the "no-fly" list is used in conjunction with this, we need to make sure that we all understand how and why people are added, we need a method of redress, and when someone on that list attempts to purchase a firearm, they are flagged, and an additional investigation is preformed. They, though, should not, in the absence of being charged with a crime, be barred from ownership if the subsequent investigation yields nothing.

▻ We should prohibit high capacity magazines. 5? 8? 10? Whatever the experts think is best. Sure it is a hassle to reload magazines, but it is a much bigger hassle to stop the bleeding and stabilize a shooting victim.

We can offer exceptions for competition shooting, and federal licenses, but I see no reason for me or anyone else to personally own 20, 30, 100 round mags. We can all deal with the mild inconvenience. (more on that here:http://thoughtcatalog.com/…/i-am-an-ar-15-owner-and-ive-ha…/)

▻ Universal and comprehensive licensing. This is obviously easier said than done, and there are constitutional implications that need to be addressed, but you should be required to prove competency to acquire a licenses for, at the very least, certain types of firearms or to carry under certain circumstances. I'm not saying we even put an undue burden on people, but it shouldn't be easier to get licensed to carry a concealed weapon in public than for me be licensed to ride a motorcycle to work.

I think a tiered classification system for firearms is both Constitutional and reasonable. All guns are lethal, but they are not all the same.

▻ High Schools should teach basic firearm safety. This is not likely to prevent mass shootings, but it would reinforce respect and safety for firearms. If we want to prevent gun deaths, doing what we can to eliminate carelessness from the equation is vital. And one simple way to do that is to teach children, rather than scare them about guns. If a child finds a gun, in the woods, in the house, etc... clearly the first rule should be don't touch it, but we need a second and third rule, so if the first one is ignored, they should know how to endure the gun is safe, how to clear the chamber, how to remove the mag, trigger finger discipline. This both better ensure that they can confidentially handle the weapon, but also better ensures someone else doesn't come along and do something stupid.

▻ Anyone, parent, relative, stranger, etc... whose negligence is shown to have lead to someone's death should be held criminally and civilly liable.

If you leave a loaded gun on the table where a child can reach it and that child kills themselves or someone else, you're responsible. Yes, I'm sure you're already dealing with a lot because your son or daughter is dead, but that is YOUR fault, and you should be held responsible.

▻ Dedicate some of those resources spent on drug enforcement on cracking down on the illegal firearm trade. Crack down on straw man buyers/sellers. Instead of cracking down on people for pot, crack down on people who are willfully selling firearms on the black/gray markets and don't give a shit about where those guns are going.

▻ Provide funding to the CDC for research into gun violence, how to reduce it, and how to prevent it. If we are going to accept that firearms are a part of our society, that there is a "gun culture" then we need to invest in real research, and right now the funding necessary to conduct it is almost nonexistent. That needs to change, otherwise we're just throwing things at the wall and hoping they work, and that is NOT how I want to see legislation enacted.

This is by no means a comprehensive list, but I do think it is a reasonable jumping off point - one that balances the need to retool our laws while protecting rights that, no matter what you think of them, are, as far as the courts are concerned, protected by the Constitution.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong about all of this. I am, after all, a non-expert.
 
Below is a post my liberal, hunting friend made on Facebook and I would appreciate it if those of you who are gun owners would way in seriously on his ideas:....

First, proud gun owner.

Second, @UCFBS thinks that shit post is way too long. Not reading that shit.

the-more-corrupt-the-state-the-more-numerous-the-laws.jpg
 
TLDR but I guess I mostly agree with what was said from speed reading. His points about this guy being investigated three times by the FBI and them finding nothing is spot on. He was an American citizen, they found nothing worthy of taking him into custody so they can't just arbitrarily take away his constitutional rights.
 
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This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.

Let's recap: the highest authority of crime fighting and investigation in this country interviewed this idiot 3 times, all for good reason, and yet 3 times came away supposedly with not enough to put him on a No Fly list. They also did not flag him for ANYTHING in the Federal Registry which is used in gun background checks- any of which would have yielded a "deny" when he went to buy those guns.

So the largest crime fighting organization in the world swung and missed time, after time, after time and yet here we are, once again suggesting that the spooky AR15 is the biggest problem here.

Notice I haven't even talked about the fact that he was an ISIS fighter intent on killing people either way? It's sad when the realization that if a terrorist had just used a bomb to kill 50 people, America would be less divided than ever as we are today.

There's also the fact that the same damage would have been done by a handgun. Or a semi auto shotgun with buckshot. People in a club are extremely close together and it's likely that one shot could have wounded and killed multiple people. There have been examples of one shotgun blast killing 4-5 people closely grouped together.

Just remember- French ISIS terrorists with guns kill hundreds - Terrorist Attack. US ISIS terrorist with gun killed 50- MASS SHOOTING.

And this is why they're winning.
 
Gun free zones need to GFTO. Like yesterday. I'm all for universal background checks (as long as it doesn't create a registry), it should not be impossible to have a number we can call to check if someone can own a gun. Problem solved.

Don't touch my 30 round mags, that ship has sailed.
 
There's a reason that many Sherrifs came out after Paris and said that the best first line of defense against terrorism is an armed populace. They can't be everywhere all the time. And these attacks ALWAYS happen in places where attackers can be sure that few, if anyone are carrying a weapon to return fire.
 
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We'll never fix our problems with guns until Republicans actually remove their heads from their ass and admit there is a problem. Let's just take it step-by-step.
 
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Archie Bunker ("All in the Family") was way ahead before his time.

Youngsters won't know but back in the early 70's..skyjackings were almost a regular occurence before all airports installed metal detectors.

Here was Archie's solution to this problem.

 
We'll never fix our problems with guns until Republicans actually remove their heads from their ass and admit their is a problem. Let's just take it step-by-step.
Why won't the NRA say we have a gun problem in the US? Unless we identify the problem we can't begin to fight it.
 
The places in this country with the tightest gun control rules, have the most gun violence. Chicago, being the perfect example.
 
So the anti-gun people in this thread, can you do me one favor? Please tell me how a British politician was shot and stabbed the other day in a country where there are some of the strictest gun laws?

Because an asshole with a gun shot the politician.

Now, do me a favor and please tell me how this small anecdote manages to convince you that, in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary, the U.S. doesn't have an issue with guns and gun violence?
 
Orlando Radio Host and Voice of UCF, Marc Daniels, has been going off on a few liberal anti-gun rants the last few days (doesn't talk about Radical Islamic Terrorist), and just like so many liberal talking heads on tv or on social media..he's plea today to congress: "Do something...do anything."

He didn't say do the smart thing...or do the right thing...he just thinks if you do anything (even if its the WRONG decision), everyone will "feel" better.

Marc's NY/Lauderdale liberal roots, which for the most part he rarely ever mentions, have been more loud the last 2 days than he's admitted publicly over the last 2 decades.
 
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Because an asshole with a gun shot the politician.

Now, do me a favor and please tell me how this small anecdote manages to convince you that, in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary, the U.S. doesn't have an issue with guns and gun violence?
Oh ok, so in that instance it was the guys fault not the guns?

You should try out for the mens gymnastics team asap. With that incredible display of mental gymnastics I just witnessed, Im sure you can bring us home gold this summer.
 
Oh ok, so in that instance it was the guys fault not the guns?

You should try out for the mens gymnastics team asap. With that incredible display of mental gymnastics I just witnessed, Im sure you can bring us home gold this summer.
The gun death rate in the U.S. is more than 40 times that of the U.K.


...but this politician being shot by a homemade gun changes everything.
 
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The gun death rate in the U.S. is more than 40 times that of the U.K.


...but this politician being shot by a homemade gun changes everything.
Wait a second. So this guy didnt even have access to guns in the UK, but still managed to get one some way some how because he just had to kill this politician...

So is it the guns fault or the individuals fault?

You know whats funny? The other day, none of my guns fired themselves and killed someone.

You know whats even funnier? Neither did some 300+ million guns in America.
 
We'll never fix our problems with guns until Republicans actually remove their heads from their ass and admit there is a problem. Let's just take it step-by-step.

I rest my case, based on the above posts.
 
Chemmie you and I had a very reasonable discussion about this the other day. There are lots of things we can do better in this country with regards to gun violence. It's mostly just eliminating unnecessary violence towards other human beings. The neighborhoods with high murder rates are not that way because of guns or a culture of guns. They are the way they are because of a culture of disrespect. Too many are raised in plain view of beatings, stabbings , shootings and just generally disrespecting everyone that comes along from the time they can talk. All this shit adds up to disaster . You can make valid points but when your conversation starts with republicansand the nra are to blame for everything you show a fundamental lack of knowledge and intelligence and anything relevant you say will be tuned out
 
Chemmie you and I had a very reasonable discussion about this the other day. There are lots of things we can do better in this country with regards to gun violence. It's mostly just eliminating unnecessary violence towards other human beings. The neighborhoods with high murder rates are not that way because of guns or a culture of guns. They are the way they are because of a culture of disrespect. Too many are raised in plain view of beatings, stabbings , shootings and just generally disrespecting everyone that comes along from the time they can talk. All this shit adds up to disaster . You can make valid points but when your conversation starts with republicansand the nra are to blame for everything you show a fundamental lack of knowledge and intelligence and anything relevant you say will be tuned out
These problems are due to hard working gun owning folks.
 
And the legit no fly list certainly shouldn't be carrying guns . Not sure what the final answer is but notifying folks who were placed on it immediately to allow them to clear their name quickly should be a good start . I'm not for taking our liberties away and I own guns and plan to buy more . But we need to do better . There was zero reason for this asshole to have the ability to buy a gun , he threw enough red flags but it's like myself and many others have said regarding gun laws . The laws to protect us are in place for the most part , they just aren't properly enforced
 
Why won't the NRA say we have a gun problem in the US? Unless we identify the problem we can't begin to fight it.
The NRA does think we have a gun violence problem, just like the US has a general violence problem, statistically. In the same regard, if you listen to not only the NRA, but the CDC's own statistics on gun crime ...
  • Suicides account for 21x as many deaths as unlawful homicides by non-organized crime (individual)
  • Organized crime accounts for 8x as many unlawful homicides as by non-organized crime (individual)
  • Organized crime also accounts for 7x as many homicides as accidents
  • Organized crime has always been the problem with automatic weapons, which law abiding citizens cannot buy (with few exceptions, like the "stamp" which are virtually never used in crimes)
  • Self-defense accounts for nearly as many lawful homicides as unlawful ones
  • Nearly 2/3rds of mass shootings are ended early, before police arrive, primarily because an armed, law abiding citizen "challenges" the shooter, who often takes his own life (just as they often would if it was law enforcement instead)
  • Other countries do have mass shootings, and more people die on average -- especially when considering per-capita (since most countries are much smaller)
And to this end, this is what kills me. Only in the US, can we ...
  • Have a registered Democrat
  • Who is conflicted between being gay
    • and being a Muslim
  • Who acquires a 45rpm long rifle which is not easily hidden
  • That is banned from open carry in Florida (unlike other states)
    • a state with some of the toughest gun laws on record (e.g., 10-20-LIFE)
  • Walk past security
  • Into a Florida state mandated "gun free zone"
Will the US media blame ...
  • Republicans for "alienating" him
  • Christians for "pressuring" ...
    • and "isolating" him
  • The NRA for (lie) making a 700rpm military Assault Rifle available
  • The state of Florida for making it easy to open carrying a Assault Rifles (lie)
    • that can only be in the home, private ranges or very limited public parks ...
  • Ignore the existence of security or, worse yet, (lie) that he could carry it in, because
  • Florida needs more "gun free zones," because this wasn't (lie)
And there is no Liberal bias in the media?
 
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I'm heading to Thune, Switzerland on Sunday to help train the Swiss MPs. Every single goddamn person of military service age is issued a rifle for conscription- a Sig 550/551 and more commonly the Sig 552. Not only are these "scary" AR type rifles, they are also fully automatic, something illegal in the US.

PEople literally bike down the street with the rifles on their backs. There are shooting ranges in every town where you can freely go to shoot your issued rifle.

In Israel, same thing. Every military aged man and woman is issued either an M4 or a Tavor rifle which goes with them everywhere and is kept at their private residence.

And yet, these countries don't have deranged assholes committing mass murder, despite a MUCH higher "AR15-type" ownership. It's because they don't have decaying, sick societies.

People like chemmie will do ANYTHING to deflect away from the fact that our society has gone rotten and THAT is the reason for "gun violence", not the mere existence of guns. Mostly because he and his buddies are apart of that.
 
I'm heading to Thune, Switzerland on Sunday to help train the Swiss MPs. Every single goddamn person of military service age is issued a rifle for conscription- a Sig 550/551 and more commonly the Sig 552. Not only are these "scary" AR type rifles, they are also fully automatic, something illegal in the US.

PEople literally bike down the street with the rifles on their backs. There are shooting ranges in every town where you can freely go to shoot your issued rifle.

In Israel, same thing. Every military aged man and woman is issued either an M4 or a Tavor rifle which goes with them everywhere and is kept at their private residence.

And yet, these countries don't have deranged assholes committing mass murder, despite a MUCH higher "AR15-type" ownership. It's because they don't have decaying, sick societies.

People like chemmie will do ANYTHING to deflect away from the fact that our society has gone rotten and THAT is the reason for "gun violence", not the mere existence of guns. Mostly because he and his buddies are apart of that.

I think you bring up a good point. Why is the US getting all the defective guns that kill people?
 
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I'm heading to Thune, Switzerland on Sunday to help train the Swiss MPs. Every single goddamn person of military service age is issued a rifle for conscription- a Sig 550/551 and more commonly the Sig 552. Not only are these "scary" AR type rifles, they are also fully automatic, something illegal in the US.

PEople literally bike down the street with the rifles on their backs. There are shooting ranges in every town where you can freely go to shoot your issued rifle.

In Israel, same thing. Every military aged man and woman is issued either an M4 or a Tavor rifle which goes with them everywhere and is kept at their private residence.

And yet, these countries don't have deranged assholes committing mass murder, despite a MUCH higher "AR15-type" ownership. It's because they don't have decaying, sick societies.

People like chemmie will do ANYTHING to deflect away from the fact that our society has gone rotten and THAT is the reason for "gun violence", not the mere existence of guns. Mostly because he and his buddies are apart of that.
Be careful using Switzerland, even to this latter point.

Right now the Swiss are dealing with the main issue of the new generation being less responsible than their parents, and many are thinking of ending their rifle tradition. Why?

"Still, the U.S. doesn’t rank No. 1.
At 0.15 mass shooting fatalities per 100,000 people,
the U.S. had a lower rate than
Norway (1.3 per 100,000)
Finland (0.34 per 100,000) and
Switzerland (1.7 per 100,000)."

Ref: Politifact

Through 2014, you were over 11x more likely to die in a mass shooting in Switzerland than the US.

But you're right, a lot of it has to do with the youth and media culture. Everyone knows if you want to die infamous, you use an intermediate carbine rifle. Doesn't matter how quick it fires, just how it looks.
 
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