In a socialist economy
- Thread starter Crazyhole
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What determines the qualitative value of anything in a socialist system if labor is the only factor? All things being equal, why wouldn't a Mercedes that took 1000 hours of labor to create be worth a bushel of corn that took 1000 hours of labor to produce? Is it even possible to find some level of equilibrium in a system like that?
There should be be elements of socialism and elements of capitalism in any modern society. Pure socialism the ruling class is the government. In pure free market capitalism the ruling class is just people like Bezos, Gates, and other billionaire executives who have unlimited funds and can lobby for whatever they want.
Beautiful answer sir. I just dont understand how we as a country is always on some "one way or the other" type of thought. There are great elements in both capitalism and socialism, so why cant we use parts from both?
I always SMH when people talk 'good ole American capitalism' -- and then point to Amazon. That company has been the biggest competition killer in the history of American business. Geez, I thought having one big catch-all for everything was always considered kind of a 'commie' thing. What changed?
PS: My God, I'm AGREEING with KNIGHTTIME!!! The world must be coming to an end!
The exact same way you do now.
It is amazing how many idiots believe the only possible solution to America's shitstain of crony-capitalism, regulated to benefit the few, is a complete Venezuelan-style government overhaul.
No, just fix shit so the richest 1% don't own everything under the damn sun while the government hands them free money, and they make the majority of people work for peanuts, and they continue doing illegal shady shit with no repercussions, and the United States doesn't have record wealth with shitty infrastructure, healthcare, education, policing, public housing, etc. etc. etc.
The basis for my arguments is always the same: the U.S. has an outrageous amount of wealth, and nothing to show for it but a bloated military and people shooting each other all over the damn place. Time to take care of citizens, workers, and the 99% of Americans who actually do shit.
It is amazing how many idiots believe the only possible solution to America's shitstain of crony-capitalism, regulated to benefit the few, is a complete Venezuelan-style government overhaul.
No, just fix shit so the richest 1% don't own everything under the damn sun while the government hands them free money, and they make the majority of people work for peanuts, and they continue doing illegal shady shit with no repercussions, and the United States doesn't have record wealth with shitty infrastructure, healthcare, education, policing, public housing, etc. etc. etc.
The basis for my arguments is always the same: the U.S. has an outrageous amount of wealth, and nothing to show for it but a bloated military and people shooting each other all over the damn place. Time to take care of citizens, workers, and the 99% of Americans who actually do shit.
No pure socialist economy exists. No pure market economy exists either. This is like saying "So, in capitalism, who pays for the roads?"
Socialism in it's idealized form is dysfunctional - just as laissez-faire capitalism in it's pure form. To make either work, you have to introduce a whole bunch of exceptions from the other end.
In our current climate, the difference between Socialism and Capitalism is - apparently - 40% vs 50% government expenditures/GDP.
I'm just trying to understand how Marx and Engels could have thought a system like that would work. How would a producer expand its output with no capital allocation?
What makes you think that it was intended to be an effective economic system and not anything more than a way to redistribute power?
Meh. It was just a postulation on how they felt economies would naturally evolve. I just don't understand where the concept would even come from when it is foundationally flawed right out of the gate.
I like what Thomas Sowell wrote about it: "What Marx accomplished was to produce such a comprehensive, dramatic, and fascinating vision that it could withstand innumerable empirical contradictions, logical refutations, and moral revulsions at its effects. The Marxian vision took the overwhelming complexity of the real world and made the parts fall into place, in a way that was intellectually exhilarating and conferred such a sense of moral superiority that opponents could be simply labelled and dismissed as moral lepers or blind reactionaries. Marxism was – and remains – a mighty instrument for the acquisition and maintenance of political power."
How many Trillions in debt have right-wing policies gotten us? And you're still thinking Thomas Sowell is an actual economist?? LOL.
Oh lord. That is some hilarious bullshit!!! Just gonna pretend the early 1900s never happened?
Depends what you mean by "free market"? Because, if you actually still believe we have a free market, you're a bigger moron than I thought.
What "right-wing policies" are to blame? MASSIVE deficit spending. Cutting taxes on upper incomes to insanely low levels. Destroying collective bargaining. "Less regulation" (yes, it goes in quotes, because it is a complete cluster**** of letting the billionaires run ragged over the little guy.) Massive defense spending. Laissez faire policies with Wall St...
It doesn't take much and realize that the policies since 1980 have been a disaster for ordinary Americans. Thanks, Barry Goldwater!!! (not mentioning Reagan, because he was a lifeless puppet)
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yet , again you are incorrect . Government does not create wealth . it only extracts it from the citizenry. Our nation of 320 million produce the earth that Government then takes through taxation. I own a small business. I enploy people and I sell products and services in the hopes people find value in them and will give me money for said products and services . over time if I sell enough I build wealth . if my employees save their earnings they build wealth. The Government does only one thing , they force me to give them revenue . They take none of the risks in my life and want their cut of the reward for my labor. That's what government does.
With that said, Government typical is ineffecient at using it's confiscated wealth for societal good. our schools suck not because of not enough money, but be sure there is zero competition. You want better schools embrace school choice . inject free market competition and you will improve education .
I don't like crony capitalism at all. I don't want government allocating capital or picking winners and losers. it's not the job of crony politicians to suck up to business and then businesses to use government to regulate or tax in way to kill competition. You wanna know why Walmart doesn't balk at $15 hour minimum wage because of their size they can afford it. walmart knows $15 hour will kill small brick and motor stores . they don't care . So using wage regulation they can kill competition. For instance at Valentine's Day I make amazing chocolate covered strawberries. I use premium , if not some of finest cocoa in the world to do my work. I sell a dozen berries for $39. You can go to Wally World in my small town and get chocolate berries for about half .Yet I sell thousands of berries . Why ? Because people love of our cocoa. Now Walmart could sell many more berries if I was not in the market place . Does my local Walmart even notice my presence? I doubt it ,but they might notice my absence.
Chemmie you can be mad at how government wastes resources but it's not your call on saying guys like me need to pay more simply to redistribute that wealth. I don't understand how you think you have a right to my labor ,my time and my property that I toil for on a daily basis?
I would agree we need a certian level of taxation to provide for the Constitutional functions as outlined in article 1 section 8. I also agree we as a society can do better . I think the free market can allocate resources fairly well and the government can help facilitate some things like education spending but it needs to embrace school choice to give parents and kids especially in poor failing schools a viable choice.
But Government should not be picking or allocating capital based on what bureaucrats want or politicians want? Imagine if Government said , we think the blackberry is the future and put resources and regulations to push it. Do you get the iphone or Android then? What if Bill Gates said windows should be the future and Government agreed? you don't have Apple at all.
Government has its role but it's not to pick or predict the market. it's not to allocate resources or capitol .and it's not to do the bidding for globalists. I despise Amazon, but I marvel at it too. Amazon and Besos are the equivalent of Standard Oil and Bezos. Government can come in and ensure things like antitrust and truly unfair predatory behavior doesn't happen. I do believe we need regulations to make sure abuse doesnt happen .
Alright, I'll read it...
This quote above is your whole problem. You've been bamboozled, hoodwinked, taken for a ride, swindled, deceived, double-crossed...
You believe you are one of them.
You're not. You're a basic bitch, just like me. You're getting screwed by the Amazons, Wal-Marts, Goldman-Sachs, JP Morgan-Chase, Googles, Apples, this, that, and everything else...
I guarantee your income from your tourist-trap chocolate shop is close to mine, even after the slave wages you pay to third-world children to supply your cacao.
But, you know what!!???
Wal-Mart, Hershey, Nestle, and others, pay those little kids even less, they get tax breaks to do it, they use accounts in the Cayman Islands to get around even more taxes, then they get local real estate tax breaks, pay their employees a shit-tier wage, they pay off politicians for even more benefits and unfair legislation, and YOU are the one who has to work harder and harder just to compete with these assholes.
Then you go and support the system that allows it all to happen.
Hoodwinked.
Dude, I hate Amazon . Amazon just sucks wealth from our communities . If we went after Standard Oil for Antitrust violations , then we should look into Amazon, pretty much all social media and a few others.
Second, my chocolate comes from Venezuela and it's fair trade . In fact Chocolate El Rey is perhaps the last bastion of free enterprise in that shit hole country bring destroyed by Maduro. The Socialista destroyed an once great economy and country. If not but for tourist trap chocolate stores largely in America those Venezuelan farmers would have less than nothing under Maduro.
I have won multiple awards for the quality of my hand crafted creations. Our alcohol infused shooters came in second place in the Made in NC Awards in the food division in 2019. There were 124 enteries and the only reason we didn't win it all is because our liquor for instance ,like Wild Turkey 101, isn't distilled in NC and the guy who made a bourbon truffle used locally crafted bourbon from Greensboro. So ,that guy had more native NC stuff than mine did. I bring this up because while I am in tourism ,we are not Hershey .We make a far superior product or products. Walmart is not my competitor be sure if you think chocolate is just chocolate and don't care you likely won't patronize our business. Now if you seek a high quality hand crafted product ,then I am your guy. My customer base is nearly 40*% local and at Valentine's Day it's nearly 100% local. We are not just done tourist trap as you infer. I take great pride in what I do and create . I am supporting families in Venezuela who are suffering at the hands of socialist dictator. And, I support free enterprise but I do not support the crony capitalism that we see today especially with the likes of Amazon, Walmart, Facebook, Twitter, and many of the Warren Buffett owned enterprises. You know why a pipeline was cancelled by Biden? they want you to believe it's for the environment. if it was for the environment then they are idiots because transporting oil by pipeline is the safest way to do it. They cancelled it because Warren Buffett owns railroads whose revenue was being squeezesd by the pipeline because he wasn't transporting that same oil by train cars. So ,as a big Democrat donor he got Biden to shut it down. That's some crony capitalism right there. It reminds me of the good ole days when Rockefeller was tired of paying Vanderbilt a ton of money to ship his Kerosene. Then Rockefeller said,what if we build pipelines instead of using rail ? except back then it was the free market calling the shots . Today not so much.
In the end Chemmie I don't like big corporations sucking up to big government essentially screwing smell business. I don't shop Amazon and rarely go to Walmart . I make the case your Main Street merchants are the ones supporting your high school football teams, the bands, the robotics prograns and such. When you shop small andocsl you help that business,their employees and your money stays home. Shop Amazon your money flees your community. if things go right ,hopefully,by 2022 I will have a third location with both chocolate and coffee.
If you have a "business" in a Marxist system that produces pallets, and the demand for more pallets exist, what is the vector to allow for expanding the building and equipment? If all of the "profits" go directly to the workers, how are people brought in to expand the building and the operation as a whole? By definition don't you need an authority to tell those builders that they have to go put an addition onto that building?
I am trying to figure out what you mean, but I am honestly having trouble. Why do think that there is no authority in a Marxist system or that additional people cant be brought in when needed?
The military budget is crazy. But whats funny is that our government says we need the biggest military to keep us safe.....yet the U.S is the #1 world arms exporter. How is putting weapons all over the world making us safer? Also with the sales of so much military hardware to other countries and our police forces...where are those "weapon sale" dollars going?
Well pure Marxism is basically just a form of mercantilism. Value is entirely predicated on labor so there can be no allocation of capital to do an expansion, or even a vector to do so. Of course, if you had an authority overseeing the economy they can determine who goes where and does what, but that isn't technically communism. Then you have the issue of either requiring a currency or labor vouchers, but at that rate you're still embracing capitalist principles.
In a Marxist system (theoretical) the government is the proletariat. There is no governing body.
I can give you part of it. The US government doesn’t buy weapons and then turn around and sell them. The USG licenses US contractors for foreign military sales on a per-item basis. The US companies then have to go at it on their own to develop and execute the business transactions. The USG doesn’t get a whole lot out of it other than administrative expenses; at least the FMS cases that I’ve been involved with.
Sounds like USG pandering to the military industrial complex, right? Not so fast my friend. First, if the item was developed under a government contract, then the USG held all the cards and limited the ability to make profit for the company throughout. Many, many contracts are looking at 8% ROC or less and that’s assuming that they can even realize 8% because of subcontracting rules (many require up to 40% of a contract to be a small business mix of woman-, veteran-, minority-, disabled-, etc- owned smalls) and you only get a couple of % for that. Of course, it was a competitive bid so you might’ve bid labor into your 8% to win so you get less.
After that, many of the contracts have frequent options (one of mine is a series of 1-year options) that the USG can choose to not pick up at any time. That assumes that they’ll fund it at all; I had a contract defunded after OSD arbitrarily cut $100 million from the chembio defense budget... right before COVID hit. That was never restored.
Oh and any issues with performance are the contractor’s fault too, so that risk of having to finish on your own dime is always there.
Which brings us to FMS. Sometimes FMS is the only way that companies can turn a profit on defense items. It’s an expensive and perilous task, though, and you are held reliable if the country you sell to uses it against the US or her allies. Many companies have had multi-million dollar fines for losing track of ITAR items.
Communism/Marxism has some forms of organization. Whether you want to call it a government, unions, etc. Obviously you can't have a system that involves "community control", if there is no organization at all.
That's basically my point. Marx's theory is based on something that even the most basic thoughts can undermine its possibility. The entire premise is a fallacy
I don't think your are interpreting them correctly. Marx and Engels were not against all forms of organization like you seem to be implying. They just wanted it to be organized by and benefiting the working class, not the wealthy.
"To each according to their needs, from each according to their ability." There is no need for organization in that kind of utopia.
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