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Methodists Vote to Keep Traditional Marriage Stance

UCFWayne

UCFWayne

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btbones said:
Strangely enough Africa controls a huge portion of the votes and are obviously anti - gay marriage etc.
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This is the 'danger' when a church aggressively involves itself in worldwide missionary work. When all is said and done, your brand of Methodism might end up getting subverted.
 
btbones said:
Strangely enough Africa controls a huge portion of the votes and are obviously anti - gay marriage etc.
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My mom is very involved in the Methodist church, so I called her this morning and asked about it. She verified your point. I guess the American Methodist parishoners were wanting a more pragmatic approach to the issue, preferring the idea of allowing each church to decide for themselves but the African faction stopped that option from coming to a vote. Now, the concern is whether or not the individual churches can or will split and more importantly the fact that the UMC actually owns all of the buildings so if a parish splits then it will cause economic stress on both sides.
 
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Crazyhole said:
My mom is very involved in the Methodist church, so I called her this morning and asked about it. She verified your point. I guess the American Methodist parishoners were wanting a more pragmatic approach to the issue, preferring the idea of allowing each church to decide for themselves but the African faction stopped that option from coming to a vote. Now, the concern is whether or not the individual churches can or will split and more importantly the fact that the UMC actually owns all of the buildings so if a parish splits then it will cause economic stress on both sides.
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Yep. Ironically, the United Methodist Church has been very progressive in its teachings from the beginning. One of the digs the UMC routinely has gotten hit with over the years is that it's the church for "Democrats who pray." :)

Given that, this vote hits A LOT of American churches hard. It's kind of hard to swallow when your church's tagline is "Open Hearts. Open Minds. Open Doors." The decision was essentially made by Southern UMCs (surprise, surprise) and African churches. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
 
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DaShuckster said:
Yep. Ironically, the United Methodist Church has been very progressive in its teachings from the beginning. One of the digs the UMC routinely has gotten hit with over the years is that it's the church for "Democrats who pray." :)

Given that, this vote hits A LOT of American churches hard. It's kind of hard to swallow when your church's tagline is "Open Hearts. Open Minds. Open Doors." The decision was essentially made by Southern UMCs (surprise, surprise) and African churches. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
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The little bit of irony here is that John Wesley's most famous quote is "what this generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace", which is exactly what has happened with the UMC.
 
btbones said:
Yeah my mom is Methodist as well . Not sure her church will continue to exist under this policy .
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The problem they have is that for several years they tried to present themselves as the penultimate acceptance church, which drove the more conservative members away. Now that they have reversed course its probably too late to get those parishioners back.
 
Crazyhole said:
The little bit of irony here is that John Wesley's most famous quote is "what this generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace", which is exactly what has happened with the UMC.
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For the most part, the American UMCs are already in the 'embrace' mode but our African and Southern UMC brothers and sisters are stuck firmly in the last Century.
 
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DaShuckster said:
For the most part, the American UMCs are already in the 'embrace' mode but our African and Southern UMC brothers and sisters are stuck firmly in the last Century.
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Not to get into a theological debate, but if a church is based on Christian teaching then why would it have been different in the 1800s than in the 2000s? Society may change, but God doesn't.
 
One thing i find curious is that the single biggest problem the catholic church had in the first 1400 years was that as they grew, they allowed and embraced societal and "pagan" norms to change the church, which led to the Lutheran movement and the Orthodox split. Churches today that came about from that movement are now following the same path and the result is the same: more churches split.

I actually think that a unified church is not a good thing. As long as people are seeking truth, having different belief structures facilitates that seeking. I love talking to people who have different beliefs from myself because it challenges me to find the truth. Its when we get lazy in our beliefs that our spiritual life dies.
 
Crazyhole said:
Not to get into a theological debate, but if a church is based on Christian teaching then why would it have been different in the 1800s than in the 2000s?
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John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church was a libertarian at heart and would likely have supported homosexual marriages and homosexual clergy. Also, the Church is somewhat unique in having a long-standing set of Social Principles. At the core of the church's teachings is an acceptance of all people irregardless of their differences.
 
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DaShuckster said:
I'm afraid our church is in the same boat.
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Her church got a new pastor a year ago . They have been opening their monthly church supper to anyone in the community who wants to come . No high pressure to attend church . If you are hungry come eat . They send to go boxes home with lots of folks as well . They run a food bank biweekly as well with the same blanket community outreach . This would undermine all the work they have put in with helping / reaching out to people . Not to mention the fact that we are taught not to make judgements on anyone or their beliefs even if they are not your own
 
btbones said:
Her church got a new pastor a year ago . They have been opening their monthly church supper to anyone in the community who wants to come . No high pressure to attend church . If you are hungry come eat . They send to go boxes home with lots of folks as well . They run a food bank biweekly as well with the same blanket community outreach . This would undermine all the work they have put in with helping / reaching out to people . Not to mention the fact that we are taught not to make judgements on anyone or their beliefs even if they are not your own
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You could be describing our church. :)

The easy answer would be for the American UMCs (or a large number of them) to break away and form their own Methodist church. But that solution is complicated by the whole 'ownership' issue.

Most American Methodists were hoping the conference would vote to approve a proposal that every region could take its own position on the controversial issues. But it didn't happen. So time will tell where things go from here.
 
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btbones said:
Her church got a new pastor a year ago . They have been opening their monthly church supper to anyone in the community who wants to come . No high pressure to attend church . If you are hungry come eat . They send to go boxes home with lots of folks as well . They run a food bank biweekly as well with the same blanket community outreach . This would undermine all the work they have put in with helping / reaching out to people . Not to mention the fact that we are taught not to make judgements on anyone or their beliefs even if they are not your own
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Hate the sin, love the sinner. The Methodists have done a really good job of showing that they love the sinner but not a very good job of showing that they hate the sin, because they can't decide what sin is. That approach led to a watering down of what the church actually represents.
 
Crazyhole said:
Hate the sin, love the sinner. The Methodists have done a really good job of showing that they love the sinner but not a very good job of showing that they hate the sin, because they can't decide what sin is.
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One can understand why people at the time the Bible was written considered homosexuality a sin. But times change. We have learned more about human sexuality in the past 50 years than we had in all the previous centuries of human existence.

Some want to say that "God's Word" never changes. But there have been countless 'reexaminations' of God's Word over the centuries. If that was untrue, modern Christians wouldn't divorce, eat pork or seafood, get tattooed, get remarried, allow women to speak in church, engage in premarital sex, or work on Saturdays or Sundays. Thinking people of faith know in their hearts that there is nothing at all 'sinful' about same-sex love. Churches are inherently conservative organizations. But most mainstream religions will eventually nix this so-called sin.
 
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DaShuckster said:
One can understand why people at the time the Bible was written considered homosexuality a sin. But times change. We have learned more about human sexuality in the past 50 years than we had in all the previous centuries of human existence.

Some want to say that "God's Word" never changes. But there have been countless 'reexaminations' of God's Word over the centuries. If that was untrue, modern Christians wouldn't divorce, eat pork or seafood, get tattooed, get remarried, allow women to speak in church, engage in premarital sex, or work on Saturdays or Sundays. Thinking people of faith know in their hearts that there is nothing at all 'sinful' about same-sex love. Churches are inherently conservative organizations. But most mainstream religions will eventually nix this so-called sin.
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Do you think its possible that you are conflating things? My interpretation of issues like eating shellfish or pork was more about God directing his people to delineate themselves from others and about adherence to "the law". Homosexual relations was referred to as "detestable" in the Torah. He destoyed Sodom and Gommorah for it. Conversely, people who ate pork or shellfish, or even went as far as to worship other gods didnt recieve that level of wrath or condemning rhetoric. Just from an argumentative standpoint, homosexuality doesn't exactly fit into the mold of the "old law", but something that was described in a different way.

I will say that my opinion of sin is likely different than what is traditionally accepted and I dont think that homosexuality is something that leads to eternal damnation. But at the same time, God was more explicit about it and his disdain for it than just about any other thing that people can do, short of Baal and Molech worship or the angels fornicating with humans.
 
Crazyhole said:
I dont think that homosexuality is something that leads to eternal damnation.
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I appreciate you going out on a limb there.

But seriously though...

I was raised a Christian so I understand the mindset but I have a really difficult time coming to grips with seemingly intelligent/thinking individuals who feel something like that would lead to eternal damnation.
 
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ChrisKnight06 said:
I appreciate you going out on a limb there.

But seriously though...

I was raised a Christian so I understand the mindset but I have a really difficult time coming to grips with seemingly intelligent/thinking individuals who feel something like that would lead to eternal damnation.
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Because they arent intelligent. At the same time, its folly to suggest that doing something that goes against your spiritual beliefs wouldnt put a barrier between you and God. Homosexuality, murder, bearing false witness, etc doesn't condemn you. What they do is create a level of guilt or shame that, assuming you want it, creates a barrier between you and your ability to receive Gods grace.
 
Crazyhole said:
Because they arent intelligent. At the same time, its folly to suggest that doing something that goes against your spiritual beliefs wouldnt put a barrier between you and God. Homosexuality, murder, bearing false witness, etc doesn't condemn you. What they do is create a level of guilt or shame that, assuming you want it, creates a barrier between you and your ability to receive Gods grace.
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Similar to what Chris said, how can an intelligent/thinking human not realize the massive difference between homosexuality and murder?
 
Crazyhole said:
Because they arent intelligent. At the same time, its folly to suggest that doing something that goes against your spiritual beliefs wouldnt put a barrier between you and God. Homosexuality, murder, bearing false witness, etc doesn't condemn you. What they do is create a level of guilt or shame that, assuming you want it, creates a barrier between you and your ability to receive Gods grace.
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I agree. Substitute God for Truth/Love/Enlightenment/Bliss and I think the same applies. If your real goal is spiritual truth you'll have a real hard time reaching any of that if what you do or surround yourself impedes that search.

But this is why I don't bother getting hung up on particulars, though I do appreciate the framework traditional religions can provide as a jumping off point. If your actual goal is spiritual truth (which btw I think is a real worthwhile fukin pursuit and maybe the whole point) then it's foolish to worry about someone else's cock in a dudes ass.
 
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"Intelligent/thinking people". This is one of the more interesting aspects of faith and creation theory to me. If we do believe in the idea that God created us in his own image then we have to assume that he gave us our intellect. At the same time, allowing ourselves to concentrate on our own intellect is to assume that our intellect is more important than our ability to be obedient or acknowledge the fact that we dont know everything. Its a form of vanity when we do so. This is not to say that all of the wisdom or knowledge God had to give is in the bible, because that assumes that He viewed only a brief period of humanity as more important than others. But if we truly believe that God is a deity with perfect knowledge and doesn't exist in time then its hard to deny that what he said 3000 years ago is still true today.
 
bqknight said:
Similar to what Chris said, how can an intelligent/thinking human not realize the massive difference between homosexuality and murder?
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This is why I asked you in the other thread on how you can ascribe to the Jewish faith, which is very explicit in the Torah about homosexuality, and feel that what you do sexually are not in conflict. Is that a personal struggle?
 
Crazyhole said:
This is why I asked you in the other thread on how you can ascribe to the Jewish faith, which is very explicit in the Torah about homosexuality, and feel that what you do sexually are not in conflict. Is that a personal struggle?
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I was raised Jewish and yes, I struggled when I was younger. Maybe that's what partially pushed me away from religion - but it wasn't the "main" factor.

I believe religion (and I mean, the non-crazy/radical kind) is a good moral compass for children when they are growing up. Once people grow up and can critically think for themselves and experience their own life story - that's up for them to choose if they want to continue believing in that or go another route.

I am persoanlly no longer religious - I do not believe I need organized religion to feel closer to whatever the higher power may be. I guess I fall into the "agnostic" category.
 
bqknight said:
I was raised Jewish and yes, I struggled when I was younger. Maybe that's what partially pushed me away from religion - but it wasn't the "main" factor.

I believe religion (and I mean, the non-crazy/radical kind) is a good moral compass for children when they are growing up. Once people grow up and can critically think for themselves and experience their own life story - that's up for them to choose if they want to continue believing in that or go another route.

I am persoanlly no longer religious - I do not believe I need organized religion to feel closer to whatever the higher power may be. I guess I fall into the "agnostic" category.
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This is honest questioning so i hope it doesnt seem pointed at all. Do you feel like if you were to decide to return to the church, or just want to embrace a more spiritual relationship that being homosexual would make that more difficult?
 
fried-chicken said:
It's 2019 y'all still talking about gay marriage?
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Yeah, because its something that all major religions have struggled with for up to 4000 years. Refusing to talk about it means that you aren't open to a dialogue that can help you grow. Whether a person is in favor of or opposed to the idea of gay marriage, we should still talk about it.
 
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Crazyhole said:
Yeah, because its something that all major religions have struggled with for up to 4000 years. Refusing to talk about it means that you aren't open to a dialogue that can help you grow. Whether a person is in favor of or opposed to the idea of gay marriage, we should still talk about it.
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We don't need to talk about it. If churches can't serve the community they operate in then they go away. Methodist church was how I grew up but we go to a generic Christian church now because Methodist church couldn't keep up with our needs. I imagine gay people feel the same way. That's what happens when you let old people call the shots. They ruin everything.
 
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fried-chicken said:
We don't need to talk about it. If churches can't serve the community they operate in then they go away. Methodist church was how I grew up but we go to a generic Christian church now because Methodist church couldn't keep up with our needs. I imagine gay people feel the same way. That's what happens when you let old people call the shots. They ruin everything.
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What were/are your needs?
 
Once again disappointed in the General Conference vote and I think at this point, a split is inevitable.

My family is actively involved in the children's and music ministry at one of the larger UMCs here in the Central Florida area, and young families have been leaving the church in droves the past several years. We used to have a weekly children's moment in all services but ended them completely because there would be weeks at a time where no kids were in the service. We used to have a robust family offering every Wednesday with youth activities, children's music and a church dinner. It is no longer an official, structured offering and hardly anyone goes to the dinner anymore. You used to have to be in-line to sign up for VBS on the first day or be relegated to a waiting list; now you can sign-up your kids at drop off on the first day. This confirmation class is the smallest I've ever seen.

And attendance and participation woes aren't confined to our children's ministries. General Sunday attendance has shrunk to the point we had to condense three services into two in order to even partially fill the Sanctuary. We used to have to set up chairs outside the sanctuary on Christmas Eve and Easter and pipe out the service through speakers; no longer. We've even assumed stewardship of two smaller churches whose membership dwindled to the point they could no longer support a full time clergy or administrative presence and would have completely closed had we not stepped in. This was quite controversial with a small but vocal faction within the church who called on the senior pastor to be replaced as a result. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact these smaller churches were in predominantly African-American communities.

I do think UMC's feet dragging and hipocricy on this issue is at least partially to blame, and it's only going to continue to get worse. Despite the church's "Open Doors" policy, we're failing to reach people where they are, as they are. We're failing to stay relevant. We don't have any credibility with the very people we need to reach.
 
Crazyhole said:
This is honest questioning so i hope it doesnt seem pointed at all. Do you feel like if you were to decide to return to the church, or just want to embrace a more spiritual relationship that being homosexual would make that more difficult?
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1) I don't see any situation as to where I would go back to organized religion. I honestly prefer to have a more one-to-one relationship. I don't need someone telling me to pray a certain way or say a certain prayer.

2) No - I'm 100000% happy that I am gay. Me being gay would never get in the way of anything worth anything.
 
bqknight said:
1) I don't see any situation as to where I would go back to organized religion. I honestly prefer to have a more one-to-one relationship. I don't need someone telling me to pray a certain way or say a certain prayer.

2) No - I'm 100000% happy that I am gay. Me being gay would never get in the way of anything worth anything.
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Im totally cool with both of those points, as I have never really identified with any particular faith or denomination. The question that was raised to me which made me think a little bit about that approach is: by doing what I am doing, picking and choosing which parts I agree with and the ones that I don't, is that basically making me a worshiper of my own beliefs as opposed to a worshiper of God? Is there a line of fault where just saying "this isnt what God wants but I do, so I'll just take the parts I want and rely on grace for the rest", as opposed to following a church doctrine blindly?
 
tribbleorlfl said:
Once again disappointed in the General Conference vote and I think at this point, a split is inevitable.

My family is actively involved in the children's and music ministry at one of the larger UMCs here in the Central Florida area, and young families have been leaving the church in droves the past several years. We used to have a weekly children's moment in all services but ended them completely because there would be weeks at a time where no kids were in the service. We used to have a robust family offering every Wednesday with youth activities, children's music and a church dinner. It is no longer an official, structured offering and hardly anyone goes to the dinner anymore. You used to have to be in-line to sign up for VBS on the first day or be relegated to a waiting list; now you can sign-up your kids at drop off on the first day. This confirmation class is the smallest I've ever seen.

And attendance and participation woes aren't confined to our children's ministries. General Sunday attendance has shrunk to the point we had to condense three services into two in order to even partially fill the Sanctuary. We used to have to set up chairs outside the sanctuary on Christmas Eve and Easter and pipe out the service through speakers; no longer. We've even assumed stewardship of two smaller churches whose membership dwindled to the point they could no longer support a full time clergy or administrative presence and would have completely closed had we not stepped in. This was quite controversial with a small but vocal faction within the church who called on the senior pastor to be replaced as a result. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact these smaller churches were in predominantly African-American communities.

I do think UMC's feet dragging and hipocricy on this issue is at least partially to blame, and it's only going to continue to get worse. Despite the church's "Open Doors" policy, we're failing to reach people where they are, as they are. We're failing to stay relevant. We don't have any credibility with the very people we need to reach.
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The only churches in America that are not experiencing a drop in attendance are the unaffiliated evangelical churches that don't really have a doctrine. IMO, that is largely because those churches present more of a social experience to the parishioners than a spiritual one.
 
Crazyhole said:
Im totally cool with both of those points, as I have never really identified with any particular faith or denomination.
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This surprises me, you come across as someone really well versed in doctrine. Is it mostly a scholarly pursuit on your part?

Crazyhole said:
The question that was raised to me which made me think a little bit about that approach is: by doing what I am doing, picking and choosing which parts I agree with and the ones that I don't, is that basically making me a worshiper of my own beliefs as opposed to a worshiper of God? Is there a line of fault where just saying "this isnt what God wants but I do, so I'll just take the parts I want and rely on grace for the rest", as opposed to following a church doctrine blindly?
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So basically the struggle with accepting what's presented as the Word as actually being the Word. Being raised Christian I struggle with that issue of picking and choosing. In fact, it's why I always says raised Christian. I can't honestly say I've come to terms with whether I still am or not. Like I don't even know what it means anymore? I was raised predominantly non-denominational but also spent a lot of time in my grandparents Baptist church. I went to a Catholic Jesuit High School. All are Christian right? Is one more true or Christian than the other? Says who? OK then where's the official Christian beliefs list from A to Z. If I deny anything on the list am I no longer really part of the church? OK this is the supposed Word... How do I reconcile all of the political bullshit with the early Christian church? How do I reconcile ancient civilizations that Christianity clearly stole from? All of this shit causes turmoil in the head and I'm at piece with not trying to clearly lay it all out bc at the end of the day the essence of it all is soooo fundamental and basic that the details feel so inconsequential. And maybe that's wrong but I'm totally at peace with it.

No idea if anything I just said made sense. Just a stream of thought.
 
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