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They do ... at massively reducing hospitalizations and deaths of those 45+, even more so 65+, and like are ewll worth it for those 30+ as well. But reducing the spread/transmission? The NEJM report ... not looking good. Sorry. And with the Berlin 15 month study, it's not kids. It's middle age asymptomatic after hospitalized elderly.
We're in this for the long haul. I warned that there was no study showing major reductions in spread/transmission with vaccination. And now? We're actually getting very, very in-depth studies that are shattering that hope. So ... masks and social distancing will be the norm again.
And don't say I didn't warn you. This is why I said the lockdowns were futile in the first place. Not 4 weeks, not 4 months ... more like 4 years now. It's stupid, it's deadly, and historians will blame it was due to the most medicine and statistic-ignorant people screaming 'Science!'
Pretty much everyone dying or getting severely ill now are unvaccinated people. The vaccines do work, but because the GOP has suddenly turned anti-vax, lots of people are refusing to get it.
Kind of weird how anti-vax the GOP has become. A few months ago they were crediting the whole vaccine to Trump, now many are very much against it.
It’s the inconsistent messaging that has plagued the pandemic from the beginning that is causing the vaccine issues. The original claim was that the vaccines were over 90% effective against infection. Then the second came that virtually no one that has been vaccinated has been hospitalized (<.1%). The reality is that both those claims were made very early in the process and the real number is significantly lower. While there is still a ton of value in an imperfect vaccine, people are tired of the changing story.
Then there is the almost-religious pressure to take the vaccines no matter what your total health picture is coupled with authoritarian initiatives from politicians with state of emergency powers. There will always be a certain portion of the public that will push back as hard as you push on just about anything. To do so in the way that it’s been done is only going to cement those behaviors. And when it comes to government using special powers to push, it’s no surprise that it’s Conservatives that are pushing back. It’s not an anti-vaccine stance, it’s an anti-authoritarian stance.
If they are telling people not to get the vaccine, it is most certainly an anti-vax stance. You can dress it up in whatever costume you wish, but it doesnt change the fact that people are going to die because of conspiracy theories and GOP politicians telling them not to get vaxxed. We just saw it at CPAC this weekend.
There is nothing inconsistent about the vax messaging. Other than anti vax people or covid deniers, everyone is saying the vaccine is helpful. The director of the Dept of health was just fired in my state yesterday. Why? Because she was encouraging people to get the vaccine, and our far right governor and legislature couldnt have that. It has been made political. The same people giving Trump all the credit for the vaccine, now dont want Biden to get any credit for the distribution of it.
THe government is not using any special powers, unless you think encouraging people to get the vaccine is somehow a special power.
Yeah, you’d think we were dealing with a brand-new disease scientists had never seen before.
Yes, that's what I meant by ...
"They do ... at massively reducing hospitalizations and deaths of those 45+, even more so 65+, and like are ewll worth it for those 30+ as well."
Although 100% is false. It's more like 99%+, but it can drop lower with variants or after 2 months. In fact, at 4-6 months, it can really drop off. It all depends on the purity of the vials, and the early ones had poor yields.
But ... that has nothing to do with spread/transmission.
As even the 15 month Berlin studied showed, mid-aged asymptomatic individuals spread it just as much as hospitalized elderly. Ironically kids don't spread it much at all, unlike typically Coronaviruses (CoV). And now with the NEJM study, it looks like mRNA vaccines don't even half the spread. That's not good at all. It confirms that vaccinated individuals being asymptomatic are still an issue.
As such ... we should have never locked down. We should have listened to researchers who have been studying CoV the last 15 years. They warned us this was going to be 5+ years until we had real vaccines that are far more effective. I don't think people realize mRNA vaccines, including Ad vectors that still use mRNA, are 'quick, dirty'n cheap' -- let alone require regular boosters.
I remember people were saying this was an 1-time double-shot (or single shot in the case of J&J Ad26) early on, and I was warning people that wasn't the case at all. Especially since the trials only studied 14-21 days after [double-]shot, and no tracking after 2 months (only recently have we seen 6 months for mRNA).
We'll probably never know for sure in the near future. But yes, it was grossly irresponsible to say there could be no issues with Gain of Function (GoF).
It's always been controversial, and the US CDC warned about Chinese lab practices in 2017-2018. I remember reading extensive articles 3 years ago about it, and some questioning their practices at researching SARS-CoV[-1] (2003 Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrom, Coronavirus, now, retroactively, #1). and other, 'in country,' CoV.
Many rural populations in China, even Korea, have commonly occurring CoV, even local, built-up immunities (as those susceptible have died long ago). While the 20th century seems to have been defined by Influenza Viruses (IV), the 21st century seems destined to be defined by Coronaviruses (CoV).
Harris said she wouldnt trust Trumps' word on it, she would have to see the data. That isnt being anti-vax. Obviously the data and trials and all of those things matter, so especially early on I have no issue with people wanting to study it. But we are past that stage now.
Not every anti-vaxxer is a Republican by any means, but if you saw CPAC this weekend, Tucker, my state government, etc, it is mostly coming from Republican politicians and talking heads at be at this point, not the Democrats.
Careful. Mike will be along any minute to call Harris an anti-vaxxer for wanting to see the data first.
I dont have an issue with people wanting to make sure they are safe either and having some hesitation. But, when people are actively telling people not to get the vaccine, that is something different. People are going to die because they are listening to conservative pundits on this, they just are. A 24 year old nurse in Louisiana just died from covid, and of course she had quite a few anti-vax posts on her social media telling people not to get it.
Actually, the cause of death isn’t clear according to the hospital. They’re doing an autopsy.
The new variant is supposedly worse though. What people are getting now likely isnt the exact same thing your grandmother had, unless she had it really recently.
I think that you're pigeonholing people that are hesitant about rushing forward with these particular vaccines into a position with Jenny McCarthy and her crazy ilk and that is simply not fair for most people.
If you're talking about Tennessee's vaccine manager (not director of the Dept of Health) getting fired, maybe you should add the context that (1) we only have her side of the story and (2) she authored a memo and pushed information out on facebook that Tennessee's Mature Minor laws allow 14-17 year-olds to get the vaccine without parental consultation. There's more to that story than she's innocently letting on after state legislators started asking questions and calling for data. Regardless, is it really a good thing for a medical doctor to be pushing for minors to get a controversial vaccine without talking to their parents?
They literally had a hearing with her a few weeks ago, and she cited every law that she was operating under. We dont just have her side of the story.
Republican lawmakers threaten to dissolve the Tennessee Department of Health for "guilt-tripping" kids to get vaccinated
The department's commissioner says she would never pressure children to take the vaccine.
www.localmemphis.com
"When you have advertisements like this with a young girl with a patch on her arm all smiling we know how impressionable our young people are and wanting to fit in in life," Cepicky said.
The horror of running an ad with a young girl with a path on her arm.
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Yes, because a Republican is no longer in the White House.
It's amazing how both sides are hypocritical, based on who is elected, if they even accept it. CNN did the same, among others, back in 2020 September when the numbers finally peaked.
Because they are questioning how much freedom is being squashed.
The lockdowns were only supposed to be for 4 weeks, then it was 4 months, and now ... ? Don't be shocked when it's basically 4 years in some capacities.
I warned and warned and warned about this. And if the new, preliminary studies are spot-on about spread and mRNA vaccines not even halving it ...
Then we're in for a lot of continued 'control.'
Sure, what she did was legal and maybe she does deserve a wrongful termination settlement. But was it responsible? Is it a good thing for a medical doctor to tell a 14 year-old child to get any kind of medical treatment without talking with their parent first?
I do agree too many Republicans are spending way too much time making a big deal about nothing, and this is one of them. But so is the left as well.They literally had a hearing with her a few weeks ago, and she cited every law that she was operating under. We dont just have her side of the story.
Republican lawmakers threaten to dissolve the Tennessee Department of Health for "guilt-tripping" kids to get vaccinated
The department's commissioner says she would never pressure children to take the vaccine.
"When you have advertisements like this with a young girl with a patch on her arm all smiling we know how impressionable our young people are and wanting to fit in in life," Cepicky said.
The horror of running an ad with a young girl with a path on her arm.
I just want leadership, not partisanship.
Dude, they were pissed about even running ads saying children can get vaccinated.
"When you have advertisements like this with a young girl with a patch on her arm all smiling we know how impressionable our young people are and wanting to fit in in life," Cepicky said.
That is a quote from a state rep.
And only 8 kids in the entire state had been vaccinated without their parents present, and all had permission of their parents. Three of them, were actually the kids of one of the dept of healths top people. This is another non issue that the GOP is making an issue for no real reason.
You haven't answered my question and you just provided more fuel. The vaccine isn't even approved for children. Again, she is a leader and that's not just a responsibility to do what's legal but also what's right. The elected representatives are there for a reason and she serves the state, not her own ideals. Why do you want to keep a bureaucrat serving her own agenda in spite of the direction of your democratically-elected representatives in place?
And having a state official directly targeting minors and sending out information that they don't need to talk to their parents about something that might be more risky for them than catching the original virus is a big damn deal. Doing it against the wishes of a democratically-elected legislature is a big damn deal. You just want it to be nothing because you agree with her and not them.
The vaccine is FDA approved for children over 12, so you are simply wrong about that. Elected representatives dont make every decision for a state. If they did then there would be no point in having different departments. If everything health issue has to go to the legislature then you are literally going to be having people with no healthcare experience or knowledge making healthcare decisions. Nothing they were doing was against CDC guidelines. This was a political decision for a health issue, nothing more, nothing less. If you are ok with bankers, lawyers, small business owners, etc etc being responsible for a states health program more power to you, but I am sure most people can see how irresponsible that is.
Donald Trump and all of his family are vaccinated. Keep dying for nothing GOP chuds.
The vaccine only lasts for a few months. I hope they get their booster shots
Now kids are dying in huge numbers due to the Delta variant. Should have just let the virus spread through them back when it wasn't as deadly so they could have built up some antibodies.
Oh well. Population control I guess.
Governors have god complexes. It needs to end. There's no reason for the lockdowns.
Social distancing, yes. Masks, always ideal. If anything, they massively reduced the influenza viruses (IV) already. Unfortunately N95 masks don't stop coronaviruses (CoV), or pneumonia for that matter.
The 15 month Berlin study says ... no for those under 16.
Those of us mid-aged folk that are PAMS (asymptomatic)? Another story.
We're as bad as hospitalized elderly in some cases.
Add in the NEJM 1M household study that shows vaccination doesn't even cut our spread/transmission in half, and ... masks are coming back.
But if the god complex governors try to lock-down again like the UK ... sigh.
Trump
99.2% of people who died in June were unvaxed. Seems to be working fine
Correct. Death.
Spread/Transmission is another matter, which has been my fear from Day 1.
We don't know how much the efficacy drops off after 2, let alone 4, months ... but we do know that serious disease and death is curbed for 6+ months, maybe even 18-24. So efficacy of any disease v. serious disease (hospitalization) is debated.
But there's also been a number of studies that show just getting any Coronavirus, even OC43-CoV (common cold), builds up enough T-cells that prevent such as well. That's why the 60-70% and 90%+ numbers are thrown around as well.
Which is why having any mRNA/Ad type vaccine but also any coronavirus, even OC43-CoV, seems to build up antibodies and T-cells that fight all variants.
But stopping the spread/transmission of any coronavirus is, as most people studying coronaviruses since the original SARS-CoV outbreak over 15 years ago ... is looking like impossible. Asymptomatic people still spread it, heavily so mid-aged as bad as hospitalized elderly (15 month Berlin study of 400K people), and it's looking more and more in the first released studies of mass numbers that secondary transfer is still happening, and will not be stopped (early 2021 NEJM study of nearly 1M households).
At least not with the current mRNA/Ad type vaccines. Again, my biggest fear coming true.
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The 15 month Berlin study of 400K people was one of the longest standing. It shocked me because even I said kids spread coronaviruses the most ... and I was utterly wrong. They don't, nowhere near adults let alone the elderly, and especially not asymptomatic (and kids are almost entirely asymptomatic).
Which means even if the mRNA vaccines reduced the spread/transmission, it won't change much for kids. But now we're finding out, thanks to the extensive 1M household study of secondary transfer, that mRNA doesn't quite half it -- and that's really no better than asymptomatic -- so that we're likely in this for the long haul. That's why I was worried about this 'wrong expectation setting.'
People need to stop with the 3rd grader logic, and understand what people like me were warning about. This isn't stopping. This is going to be our new 'common cold,' and deadly, just like OC43-CoV was 130 years ago. Because the authoritative politicians will lock us down again, as the spread/transmission is increasing once more ... and it's not just because of variants.
I have yet to see a single study, even from Pharma, that shows any major reduction in spread/transmission over asymptomatic. At most, they talk about 'shedding.' Even headlines are at odds with the context of their studies as none offer anything about secondary transmission.
The only thing we know for sure is that the direct mRNA spike protein approach is outstanding for an individual combating coronaviruses for at least 2 months (if not 6+), even better than the Adenovirus (Ad) vector that also uses an indirect mRNA approach that creates spike proteins as well. It not only forces the body to produce not just T-cells, but antibodies, and that provides an extremely high efficacy after 14-21 days, and even more so 14-21 days after the 2nd shot. The results were way, way above expectation, and that was good. Especially considering other vaccine methods take years, when mRNA only takes days from any synthesized virus. We were really lucky it worked so well against SARS-CoV-2.
So we're saving lives for those most at risk, and keeping more people out of the hospital. But how long does it last? I warned people that mRNA is a short-term solution, and we still need a live, attenuated vaccine or some other, traditional approach. I'm hopeful those not merely last longer, but actually do reduce spread/transmission.
Otherwise 'the low bar has been set,' and we're going to be f'd with lockdown after lockdown, mandate after mandate. I'm really tired of people who cannot stop to understand these details making these types of decisions. @Ucfmikes, who is against lockdowns and believes mRNA vaccines are the solution to stop the spread, is just as bad as the people who called for the lockdowns ... because he set the wrong expectation.
We're beyond 60% vaccinated 12+ (including children), and well past 70% (even 75% now?) only looking at 18+. First they said 50% of adults, then 70%, and now ... it's 70% including children. Soon it will be 85%, then 90%, and the lockdowns will continue. Which is why I feel 'effect immunity' has been a bad sales pitch.
Because 'herd immunity' is just not possible with some viruses, including all coronaviruses to date in history.
They only did through 15 weeks (3-4 months). They also picked 14 people, 8 of which had the disease prior to mRNA vaccination. That means they survived already, and benefited from some combinational immunity of natural (Wuhan-1? Alpha?) and vaccine (Wuhan-1).This article says you could have protection for years.
Pfizer and Moderna Vaccines Likely to Produce Lasting Immunity, Study Finds (Published 2021)
Immune cells are still organizing to fight the coronavirus months after inoculation, scientists reported.www.nytimes.com
No one said it doesn't last 3-4 months. But at 4+ months, the drop-off can start. How much depends on many factors. We're only 7 months into mass mRNA jabs (100M+ doses, coming up on 200M IIRC), and 4 months into the Ad (J&J) vector one (10M+, major drop-off after the pause), in the US. The two-shot Ad (AZ) in EU has been pulled from many, it uses a different vector than the single shot Ad one in the US.
The Adenovirus vectors were also created in the hope that the body better continues to create the 'spike proteins' and resulting 'immune responses.' Speaking from having the J&J Ad26 type, I've had re-responses to pink eye like symptoms (I don't have pink eye, just the response), and have had to take extra anti-histimines at times. The worst was weeks 3-4, but I've also had some re-responses here at weeks 9-10.
In any case, almost everyone is probably good for up to 2 years. The question is ... how far does the efficacy reduce after 4, 6, 12 and 18 months? When do we need 'Boosters'? And what might happen if someone like me, who had the J&J Ad26 type, got a mRNA? Some people have already done that, but doctors are recommending against it because it could overwhelm the immune system.
The direct mRNA approach is already pretty hard on the body, whereas the indirect mRNA via Adenovirus vector is relatively easy. In my case I only needed a half-day off from work to deal with my eyes some 3 weeks in. My wife just had her worst set of headaches in her life at week 3-4, but no recurrence.
Ugh., no. I’ll just call her as stupid as you are. Just because she is the Vice President doesn’t mean she’s smart.
Doctors and leading health officials have been adamant in stating that any potential side-effects of the COVID vaccines are astronomical and are dramatically outweighed by the very real risk involved in remaining unvaccinated.
So this vaccine stubbornness/reluctance we're seeing in places like rural Alabama seems incredibly asinine. But in the immortal words of that great philosopher, Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does."
Exhibit “A” 🙄🙄🙄🙄🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
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