Nm
- Thread starter KNIGHTTIME^
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Then home-school them. Christ, we’ve only had health requirements to attend school in this country for over sixty five years.
Let me get this straight: 'the government ain't telling ME what to do!' crowd in Florida is rallying around DeSantis's order to ban mask health requirements by the State's various school districts.
So the DeSantis Administration has made it against the law for a school board to require masks during the State's covid pandemic surge? Damn, I could have sworn you were against governmental dictates.
Yeah, we've become SUCH a commie country!
Get this, in the 'name of public safety' I've heard "The Government" is also requiring its citizens to:
- wear seat belts while driving a motor vehicle;
- refrain from drinking alcohol or taking drugs while driving a motor vehicle;
- wear helmets when driving a motorcycle;
LOL I stand corrected.
FYI, Florida has the highest number of fatalities in the U.S..
Yeeeeaaah, not the same at all.
- A non-mask wearing numbskull infects somebody who gets sick, is hospitalized, and dies.
- A drunk numbskull crashes into somebody who is injured, is hospitalized, and dies.
I was OK with Desantis taking a Federalist approach to mask mandates and letting local communities decide. But to prohibit local communities from following the advice of the CDC and the APA with masks in schools is bananas.
But remember, it's only THOSE EVIL LIB POLITICIANS who are pushing governmental mandates!!!
I guess requirements are 'Commie' when they're implemented in the name of public safety whereas DeSantis's blanket mask mandate prohibition is about.... uh....
Judge just ruled today that DeSantis can’t regulate a cruise line to follow his rules. He can try to regulate localities of what can and can’t be implemented, but it probably won’t matter much. He’s not going to be able to tell individual businesses they can’t have Covid mitigation measures in place, and businesses will likely defer to the guidelines from the locality in which they reside. If there is an Orange County mask guideline, I would expect it to be adhered to by UCF come football season.
I am not sure of that. Seminole and Valencia have instituted indoor mask policies for classes this year--UCF has not. They've only recommended it. Now, we've got 3.5 weeks before the first game so that could change...
I can’t speak to the enforcement of anything, but they updated their policy to masks indoors regardless of vaccination status.
Student Health Services • UCF
www.ucf.edu
Public health isn't about individual choices. Shitting in the streets is bad for public health. We don't leave that to individual discretion.
Maybe the guidance is bad. Maybe the messaging sucks. But no matter how you slice it, DeSantis was trying to tie the hands of local officials to PREVENT them from instituting policies that aligned with CDC and APA guidance.
I can’t speak to the enforcement of anything, but they updated their policy to masks indoors regardless of vaccination status.
Student Health Services • UCF
Yes, they are "asking" people to wear masks indoors whereas UF is "expecting" (their wording) people to do so. It's semantics, yes, but it is definitely a stark contrast to Seminole and Valencia, which have both instituted mandatory masking policies without fear of backlash from the Governor and State Legislature.
Correct, because executives and governments are supposed to protect civil rights, not destroy them.
You mean like the Bill of Rights?
Oh, that's right, the left now claims the Framers meant the Bill of our Rights are the only rights we have.
Exactly what the anti-Federalists warned would happen. It's funny how both the Federalists and anti-Federalists ended up being correct.
Adams and Jefferson reconciled for a reason... the folly of the ignorant citizen who says, "Please take our rights away from my neighbor, but only my neighbor."
Special interest.
Not initially special interest, but has very much become such special interest that the penalties can be worse than intentionally killing someone with a car.
Actually, that one is still being debating.
And here's the thing...
Which works better... 'There outta be a law' nanny state sacked by groups and special interest?
Or Americans agreeing to respect the individual request of others?
Nope, thanks to people like you.Will this "Government Overreach" never end??!?
But it's also not about ignorant politicians either... or special interest. The gov't has shown itself to be too ignorant and full of misinformation to lead.
Individual, ignorant, power hungry, arrogant people.
Those are public streets.
What about my private property in the country?
Now what about in public parks?
And what happened to public sanitation without toilet paper?
Actually, we do... politicians.
And how often have the politicians actually known better than the average American?
How many politicians have lied and had to be corrected by the US FDA, US NIH and even WHO at times?
See what I'm getting at?
"Science!!!" != Science
And you wonder why people, especially minorities, don't trust government? Heck, I don't!
Whitey isn't just white.
Whitey is white with power over far poorer white too.
And it's dead wrong, often, total misinformation.
Dr. Rand Paul, MD is 100% factual about natural immunity greatly reducing the spread more than mRNA vaccines, and we insult him, call him stupid, say he's spreading misinformation.
WTF would I trust anyone who libels and slanders him in ignorance?
Because he cares about freedom more than anything else. We used to call that a core American value.
Now it's reckless. Hmmm....
It's almost as if children 12 and under have no ability to be vaccinated, whereas every adult in a concert venue had the ability to receive a free vaccine available on every street corner.
I'm not directing this at you specifically, but you just used one.
What's with the use of false equivalencies recently? I see it over and over again, sometimes to the most ridiculous extremes. What exactly is this a product of?
Actually, 16 or 18, depending if Pfizer or Moderna/J&J, respectively. Pfizer had not sought US FDA approval for under 16.
Pfizer's small trial (n~2,000) of 12-15 that led to the EUA for 12-15 only proved via the placebos that kids don't get sick or spread it. Pfizer was NOT eager to continue this trials, and which is why they will not seek approval for 12-15.
I.e., 100% of both the vaccinated and unvaccinated in the study never became seriously disease. In the placebo case, only 1.6% tested positive and were asymptomatic.
Spread was unaffected as their natural immunity was providing the sterilization in the upper respiratory tract and the related IgA antibodies, which mRNA vaccines don't.
That's why vaccination of kids doesn't matter when it comes to spread. They spread it less than 1/10th of vaccinated adults who are asymptomatic.
This surprised me as well, because I had assumed they were super-spreaders. But CoV isn't flu, and explains a lot about the 1890s origins of OC43-CoV and why kids 5+ hardly died back then from it either.
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Heck, only ~350 of kids 0-17 have died in the US to date from either SARS-CoV-2 or SARS-CoV-2 caused pneumonia.
And that was largely under 5 before their immunity develops. That's why they spread it more too, but still less than even vaccinated adults.
And the kid's own, natural immunity is actually providing the sterilization and IgA antibodies in their upper respiratory tract, NOT any mRNA vaccine.
Kids actually don't.
Vaccinated adults... we actually should to reduce the spread. For protection, only P100 has a chance. N95 is useless.
But kids 5-17 don't. They are the least of our concerns by a full order of magnitude.
Protecting our civil rights is only one of the purposes of our federal government. The preamble to our Constitution also talks about "establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, and promoting the general welfare." I'm pretty damn sure that helping the public get through a deadly contagious disease fits right in there.
There are only zillions of examples of why a civilized society establishes.....gasp!!!....."requirements" on its members to advance the safety and security of the entire group. The notion that one person's 'civil right' to act dangerously trumps the greater good is utterly ridiculous --- kind of like the stupid notion you apparently have that our drunk driving laws are really all about "special interests." 🤪
Chronically so... and at the price of not just freedom, but anyone who actually understands the science being against both criminal threats by the state and even vigilantism supported by the state.
OK so shitting in the streets is pretty out there. But you know what else is false equivalency? Pretending that public health policy is suddenly some great affront to personal liberty. We mandate vaccines for schools. We mandate you wear a seatbelt. We ban public smoking. Public health is never about individual choices. It's about setting policy that (we think) benefits the whole of society.
It's primary function by, of and for the citizen. Anything else is just gov't for gov't's sake.
Do you realize what you just said there? You're saying that civil rights is not the primary purpose of gov't concern.
Protecting civil rights, by the federal.
In fact, how many times has the gov't actually won in the courts with these mandates?! They've lost nearly all to date.
Also protecting civil rights, by the federal.
Yes, that's actually not civil rights, but the primary institution of the federal that states/local don't get... actual manpower.
Promote, not provide.
Remember, you're talking to a Libertarian who has over 200 years of SCOTUS rulings that basically destroys your positions, including opinions by Progressive Justices on how bad you're wrong.
Not by letting individual politicians devoid of science be dictators... which is why the courts side against them.
In this case, the court sided with the private, foreign based corporate entity over American citizens and others embarking from American soil, namely Florida.
DeSantis was representing the Floridians or those individuals embarking from Florida. That's is his primary purpose, to represent and protect the rights of the individual and that's what he was doing.
The courts just didn't feel it was enough to override the rights of the foreign-based corporation.
You're not very good at this whole civics and freedom thing when it comes to the American experiment, are you?
And you call us American Libertarians anarchists and pro-corporations?!?!?! Guess what? 100% of your position is foreign corporations' rights over Floridians and Americans citizens.
Groups rights, even corporate rights, even foreign-based corporate rights ... even when science doesn't support it.
That's special interest and anti-individual rights, without justification. It's amazing you're defending the corporation, and not the individual, when you turn around and say we Libertarians do such!
That's why you aren't a freedom loving liberal, but pro-Soviet Progressive. The political party knows best, damn the science and individual, only the group narrative matters.
You mean like politicians devoid of science?!
Again, this is about a foreign-based corporation having more rights than individual Floridians.
DeSantis is not allowed to tell a foreign-based corporation how they must operate in Florida or not operate at all.
So Floridians have no say in their foreign-based operations, even when using facilities and embarking at and from Florida.
This has NOTHING to do with anything you argued. But you didn't read the legal arguments, you just assumed like a fool.
Progressivism at its finest. Welcome to the Soviet. Group rights of special interest are the only things that matter.
Yes, DUIs are the ultimate example of how special interest ruins the law, and creates the ultimate inertia that overrides 'common sense.'
Opt for hit'n run and vehicular homicide rather than DUI homicide.
Public health policy should be little more than information and recommendations. Lockdowns and mandates should be reserved for absolute worst case scenarios that are enforced by the military. It needs to be THAT bad before we go down that road.
When public policy is not only devoid of science, not only by politicians who are individuals, by the state who keeps losing in court and is repeatedly cited for contempt by justices...
Yes, it f'ing is!!!
US FDA approved vaccines that, for the most part, have decades of study and results.
Even more so when mRNA has shown not to reduce the spread, and is actually inferior, by an order of magnitude, to a child 5-17 own, natural immunity.
mRNA isn't a smallpox-like vaccine, let alone its not even like just MMR, and Is NOT designed to even reduce the spread, and it has been proven it doesn't with any significance in an adult, and utterly proven it doesn't do anything for a kid in that regard...
Heck, Pfizer isn't even going for under 16! It's approval filings for that reason, and all others remain 18+ as well. That right there says it all.
That all said...
VZL I take issue with, as do many virologists now, even as the US CDC and doctors will recommend it, despite chicken pox not lessening, and Shingles now being an even bigger epidemic as a result.
Special interest, absolutely.
In fact, this was predicted.
You are literally the attitude predicted!
I actual take some issue with this, and I hate smokers. But why do we allow smoking in the first place? Why did we even promote it?
Special interest.
Same with leaded gas.
I could go on and on.
I'm not saying 'special interests' to excuse things. And this is why you're a sheep!!!
Government caused the problem!!!
Government mandated the problem!!!
Now you want government to mandate someone else's agenda instead.
This is why I took issue with the Microsoft anti-trust stuff. It wasn't about protecting the consumer from their clear, predatory and security non-existent products. It was about competitor lobbying.
It's not conspiracy theory. It's why we never got a SARS-CoV vaccine after 15+ years of even W. funding one, among other things.
No, but it has become blindly believing 'our team' knows best, which is the often individual 'cult of personality.'
Would you like me to take you through the hundreds of governors who unilaterally mandated things that caused the pandemic to get worse, let alone destroyed small businesses while big businesses did the exact same things that small businesses were prevented from doing?!?!?!
Geez, even Warren Buffet 'gets it.'
We think, and if we're proven wrong by experts, it's 'misinformation.'
That's getting f'ing beyond old!
It's not about just not dying. It's about the fact that kids shouldn't have to go to the hospital for a preventable disease because you won't get vaxxed your kids can't get vaxxed and some parent can't homeschool. You shouldn't be able to harm someone else's children like that based on moronic ideology.
If your dumb ****ing ass gets the delta variant that's on you but to subject children to it when they can't get vaccinated yet is selfish and on brand for the biggest piece of trash on this website.
You need to slow down and read my posts in context. You seem to apply every stereotype of every poster on this board and read into what I'm saying. This thread is about masks in schools. I have no idea why you are talking about lockdowns by other governors, their effect on business, or Warren Buffet.When public policy is not only devoid of science, not only by politicians who are individuals, by the state who keeps losing in court and is repeatedly cited for contempt by justices...
Yes, it f'ing is!!!
US FDA approved vaccines that, for the most part, have decades of study and results.
Even more so when mRNA has shown not to reduce the spread, and is actually inferior, by an order of magnitude, to a child 5-17 own, natural immunity.
mRNA isn't a smallpox-like vaccine, let alone its not even like just MMR, and Is NOT designed to even reduce the spread, and it has been proven it doesn't with any significance in an adult, and utterly proven it doesn't do anything for a kid in that regard...
Heck, Pfizer isn't even going for under 16! It's approval filings for that reason, and all others remain 18+ as well. That right there says it all.
That all said...
VZL I take issue with, as do many virologists now, even as the US CDC and doctors will recommend it, despite chicken pox not lessening, and Shingles now being an even bigger epidemic as a result.
Special interest, absolutely.
In fact, this was predicted.
You are literally the attitude predicted!
I actual take some issue with this, and I hate smokers. But why do we allow smoking in the first place? Why did we even promote it?
Special interest.
Same with leaded gas.
I could go on and on.
I'm not saying 'special interests' to excuse things. And this is why you're a sheep!!!
Government caused the problem!!!
Government mandated the problem!!!
Now you want government to mandate someone else's agenda instead.
This is why I took issue with the Microsoft anti-trust stuff. It wasn't about protecting the consumer from their clear, predatory and security non-existent products. It was about competitor lobbying.
It's not conspiracy theory. It's why we never got a SARS-CoV vaccine after 15+ years of even W. funding one, among other things.
No, but it has become blindly believing 'our team' knows best, which is the often individual 'cult of personality.'
Would you like me to take you through the hundreds of governors who unilaterally mandated things that caused the pandemic to get worse, let alone destroyed small businesses while big businesses did the exact same things that small businesses were prevented from doing?!?!?!
Geez, even Warren Buffet 'gets it.'
We think, and if we're proven wrong by experts, it's 'misinformation.'
That's getting f'ing beyond old!
DeSantis attempted to ban localities from implementing mask mandates that aligned with CDC/APA recommendations. He realized the political stupidity of this as cases shot through the roof and allowed his DOE to craft a loophole in their "interpretation" of his order.
His rationale for this was to protect the rights of parents to make their own decisions on masks. I'm merely saying that good public health policy ALWAYS results in loss of individual freedom. There is no good public health policy that makes people more free. So that in-and-of-itself is not a rational basis for opposing the policy.
Reading comprehension is underrated. I said protecting civil rights is only one of the purposes of government. To argue that it's 'the primary function' and everything else doesn't really matter is some major league crazy talk.
Speaking of major league crazy talk, DUI laws override common sense? WTF?
I read them in context. And this is why you're not just anti-Freedom, but anti-BLM, when you say things like Seat Belts. Here, I forked a new thread because it deserves its own focus.
Stop with the Seat Belt argument
Seriously, it's time to stop the Selt Belt argument. This is what I hated about Biden and Harris among the rest of the Democratic field. They are actually anti-BLM, along with many Republicans, and not remotely interested in Criminal Justice reform. If you make the Selt Belt argument, it is...
ucf.forums.rivals.com
Do you realize we have the police state we do because of your attitude?
Because you're justifying things with clear anti-freedom phrasing that people warned about 30-50 years ago, 2-3 generations back. Seat belt laws are directly tied to criminal injustice, to an extreme, and those of you making that argument are so oblivious that you're making the worst argument!
And yet you're talking Seat Belt laws as if they help your argument, let alone don't bring in 100x more context your ignorant of. This is why we Libertarians believe the battle was lost by 2006, if not the '90s.
Just like you don't understand why your statements are not only anti-BLM, but why minorities don't want to get mRNA vaccinated, or even if it was an intranasal, live, attenuated virus vaccine for that matter.
You mean kids are spreading it?
And masks (short of P100) actually work?
Here's the reality... we've had 18 months of cluster where 80% of what the federal and many state/local governments have not just said, but have done, have not only been dead wrong, but special interest laden that has NOTHING to do with protecting anyone.
Enough is enough! Civil rights first now, before it's too late. I'll support any leader doing that. Because of right now, I trust individuals 10x more than the mob of the people we call the government and its restrictions.
Again, you really started to lose me at Seat Belts. I really don't think you realize the wrongs of the last 18 months.
At least DeSantis is defaulting to individual freedom. It's time we start doing that. Heck, we should have shortly after 9/11.
Interesting. So then would this make statewide mask mandates invalid as well?
It probably will end up invalid. It’s a different lawsuit which hasn’t been ruled on yet.
We get it: you have a hard on for Barry and his guests. Why don't you sit down for what I am about to say:
Politicians, even ex ones, are massive hypocrites.
Hope this helps.
Are the kids being taught outside? The governor had a mask policy 6 months ago with lower case numbers. Why not implement his own policies?
even better, Obama was in private property where nobody was forced to be. The kids don't have an option and most schools are public.
Comparing a private party with a school is STUPID
