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Obama lifts U.S. arms ban on Vietnam

I doubt they'll actually adopt US platforms; this is really just a way to poke China in the eye. The Vietnamese are deeply skeptical of China.
 
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Good lord some of you dopes have such a hate for the man that you can't see the forest through the trees. This is nothing more than a pure strategic move to piss off the Chinese. Yes, yes their human rights stats are abysmal, when did you all turn into bleeding hearts?

The Vietnamese are just as worried about the Chinese encroachment into the South China Sea as others are. So I applaud us for taking any chance to make a possible ally against our greatest rival right in their own backyard.

Reopening naval bases in the Philippines, playing nice with the Vietnamese, and engaging South Korea and Japan... pretty smart if you ask me. Anything to piss off the Chinese is ok in my book.
 
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Good lord some of you dopes have such a hate for the man that you can't see the forest through the trees. This is nothing more than a pure strategic move to piss off the Chinese. Yes, yes their human rights stats are abysmal, when did you all turn into bleeding hearts?

The Vietnamese are just as worried about the Chinese encroachment into the South China Sea as others are. So I applaud us for taking any chance to make a possible ally against our greatest rival right in their own backyard.

Reopening naval bases in the Philippines, playing nice with the Vietnamese, and engaging South Korea and Japan... pretty smart if you ask me. Anything to piss off the Chinese is ok in my book.

It's still a mangled mess of a foreign policy.

He's pissing off our long established key allies in the Middle East, yet spending time building up allegiances with barely developed Pacific Rim nations. The Middle East is burning with the US largely on the sideline and yet he's inserting the US more into the matters of a few islands in the S China Sea that a bunch of neighbors are pissing and moaning over.

As for the human rights angle, they were clearly identifying the ridiculous irony that Obama will spend time lecturing people about the evils of North Carolina while he spends time chumming it up with rogue communist nations that are serial human rights abusers.
 
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I don't blindly hate him. It's just hard to ignore the symbolism of flirting with the Castros followed by this despite it possibly weakening the Chinese(not guaranteed). It's a Macro view of his mess of a foreign policy
 
It's still a mangled mess of a foreign policy.

He's pissing off our long established key allies in the Middle East, yet spending time building up allegiances with barely developed Pacific Rim nations. The Middle East is burning with the US largely on the sideline and yet he's inserting the US more into the matters of a few islands in the S China Sea that a bunch of neighbors are pissing and moaning over.

As for the human rights angle, they were clearly identifying the ridiculous irony that Obama will spend time lecturing people about the evils of North Carolina while he spends time chumming it up with rogue communist nations that are serial human rights abusers.
85 you just dont get it do you?! People's bathroom choices are every bit as important as free speech. A dude using the womens bathroom == a guy going to jail for life because he said he didnt like the government.
 
It's still a mangled mess of a foreign policy.

He's pissing off our long established key allies in the Middle East, yet spending time building up allegiances with barely developed Pacific Rim nations. The Middle East is burning with the US largely on the sideline and yet he's inserting the US more into the matters of a few islands in the S China Sea that a bunch of neighbors are pissing and moaning over.

As for the human rights angle, they were clearly identifying the ridiculous irony that Obama will spend time lecturing people about the evils of North Carolina while he spends time chumming it up with rogue communist nations that are serial human rights abusers.

I agree with you on the hypocritical nature of the NC human rights aspect and building a relationship with the Vietnamese. But we have always held our on population to a higher standard and made niceties with foreign powers that don't do the same. We both know that's just the way the world works.

But I have to disagree with the foreign policy aspect of this. What key allies do we really have in the Middle East? The Sauds, UAE, Qatar? The same countries that put on a friendly face to our diplomatic approach and then their population secretly funds al-Qaeda and ISIS alike. As you said the Middle East is burning, but no amount of American diplomatic intervention is going to fix this part of the world. Most are theocracies not living in modern times and when the oil money dries up for the others they will plunge further into darkness. I'm not saying move away entirely from this region. We can't with ISIS and al-Qaeda still causing havoc but most of these countries outside of Jordan and Turkey resent us. I think its smart to begin to move away from this area of the world and focus on China who is clearly our biggest rival in the future.

And it may be a few islands now, but the Chinese military buildup is real and a larger navy (they are already building an aircraft carrier through stolen U.S. plans) for them may be a thing of the future. Yes, Vietnam and the Philippines are largely undeveloped but South Korea, India, Taiwan and Japan aren't and they are just as nervous. For the U.S. to keep its current position in this world we need to keep China in check. Having allies in that area of the world can only help. And even after Obama is long gone I think the pivot towards Asia is will continue to happen because a lot of people recognize the importance that area will play in the future.
 
I agree with you on the hypocritical nature of the NC human rights aspect and building a relationship with the Vietnamese. But we have always held our on population to a higher standard and made niceties with foreign powers that don't do the same. We both know that's just the way the world works.

But I have to disagree with the foreign policy aspect of this. What key allies do we really have in the Middle East? The Sauds, UAE, Qatar? The same countries that put on a friendly face to our diplomatic approach and then their population secretly funds al-Qaeda and ISIS alike. As you said the Middle East is burning, but no amount of American diplomatic intervention is going to fix this part of the world. Most are theocracies not living in modern times and when the oil money dries up for the others they will plunge further into darkness. I'm not saying move away entirely from this region. We can't with ISIS and al-Qaeda still causing havoc but most of these countries outside of Jordan and Turkey resent us. I think its smart to begin to move away from this area of the world and focus on China who is clearly our biggest rival in the future.

And it may be a few islands now, but the Chinese military buildup is real and a larger navy (they are already building an aircraft carrier through stolen U.S. plans) for them may be a thing of the future. Yes, Vietnam and the Philippines are largely undeveloped but South Korea, India, Taiwan and Japan aren't and they are just as nervous. For the U.S. to keep its current position in this world we need to keep China in check. Having allies in that area of the world can only help. And even after Obama is long gone I think the pivot towards Asia is will continue to happen because a lot of people recognize the importance that area will play in the future.
I like how you forgot our biggest ally in the middle east...
 
I like how you forgot our biggest ally in the middle east...

Lol. The only true allies we have in the Middle East are Jordan and Israel. Even Turkey is suspect at times. The rest can fight all the proxy wars over dirt all they want. Just as long as nobody gets any nuclear weapons and we stay the hell out of picking a side. There is a reason the Saudi's, UAE, and other Sunni nations don't stand up and join the fight against al-Qaeda and ISIS. They don't want to and because a considerable amount of their populations agree with these organizations ideals. It will always be Sunni vs. Shia (Sauds and allies vs. Iran and allies) and the U.S. stands nothing to gain from attempting to pick a side anymore. Especially as we increase our own oil production.
 
Lol. The only true allies we have in the Middle East are Jordan and Israel. Even Turkey is suspect at times. The rest can fight all the proxy wars over dirt all they want. Just as long as nobody gets any nuclear weapons and we stay the hell out of picking a side. There is a reason the Saudi's, UAE, and other Sunni nations don't stand up and join the fight against al-Qaeda and ISIS. They don't want to and because a considerable amount of their populations agree with these organizations ideals. It will always be Sunni vs. Shia (Sauds and allies vs. Iran and allies) and the U.S. stands nothing to gain from attempting to pick a side anymore. Especially as we increase our own oil production.

You've really missed the mark here.

The Saudis were ready with a joint Arab force to take direct action in Syria after Obama delivered on his infamous Red Line vow if Syria used chemical weapons. The US was going to lead the way with tomahawks and air strikes, disable the Syrian air force and major depots, and the GCC coalition would establish a safe zone. Well, that never happened and suddenly the GCC members realized that the US indeed would break their promises to them.

You also left out the part where the Admin made a deal with Iran in which their own Nat Security Advisor just came out boasting that they used the media to push a false narrative to build the case for the deal. They unleashed a flood of money into Iran at a time when they're testing long range ballistic missiles and still funding Hezbollah in Isreal's border. We've stuck our "ally" in the eye repeatedly.
 
You've really missed the mark here.

The Saudis were ready with a joint Arab force to take direct action in Syria after Obama delivered on his infamous Red Line vow if Syria used chemical weapons. The US was going to lead the way with tomahawks and air strikes, disable the Syrian air force and major depots, and the GCC coalition would establish a safe zone. Well, that never happened and suddenly the GCC members realized that the US indeed would break their promises to them.

You also left out the part where the Admin made a deal with Iran in which their own Nat Security Advisor just came out boasting that they used the media to push a false narrative to build the case for the deal. They unleashed a flood of money into Iran at a time when they're testing long range ballistic missiles and still funding Hezbollah in Isreal's border. We've stuck our "ally" in the eye repeatedly.

Let me clarify and say that I am in no way defending Obama on all of his foreign policy decisions. I'm not an Obama supporter/ nor hater. He's made plenty of mistakes. I just so happen to support the current pivot towards Asia. That said I don't see how I am missing the mark.

I think you are giving way too much credit to Saudi Arabia and the Arab Coalition. I agree the Red Line statement was stupid and when we did nothing it made us look weak. But the Arab coalition would have loved nothing more than to jump on the coattails of a U.S. effort in Syria. Sure they would argue that they were doing it for the right reasons, but in reality it would have been nothing more than a way to stick it to Iran via Syria behind U.S. efforts They could have went ahead and took it upon themselves to act, but why risk retaliation by Iran and Syria when you can guarantee an alibi by waiting for the U.S. to act first.

I also agree that the Iranian deal was a colossal mistake. We gained nothing from it and Iran gained everything. Nothing will destabilize that region more than for one country to become a nuclear power. Furthermore, I agree that it hurt our relationship with Saudi Arabia.

All I am arguing is not to look at Saudi Arabia as such a great ally and I don't want to support them in their war with Iran. I don't want us to support Iran either. We should just stay out of it. I view the Saudi's in the same realm as Pakistan. An ally on paper but don't trust them. Iran props up Hezbollah, the Saudi's and arab friends prop up al-Qaeda and ISIS, and Pakistan supports the Taliban and others.

Yes, we may have struck our "ally" in the eye repeatedly. But don't think they haven't done it to us because the death of every American by the hands of al-Qaeda, ISIS and other Sunni groups is tainted with Saudi financial backing.
 
This guy wants your guns, yet loves to give guns to commies, muzzlies, and marxists and lets trannies molest young girls.

Give me a break.
 
Sigh, okay, 2 things I don't like about the adminstration ...
  1. Like Japan, Vietnam has been complaining about the US' lack of FoN and other policy
  2. Overall strategy has been to "pull back, but offer arms" (and lots of money for little benefit)
However, in defense of the administration ...
  1. McCain helped "open up" Vietnam during the Clinton administration
  2. Vietnam has become a huge trading partner of ours in the '00s
  3. We need allies, especially in the Asia-Pacific region
  4. Even W. "opened up" to India for similar reasons
Some may disagree, but if we had a "problem" with Vietnam on civil liberties -- like China -- we shouldn't have started trading with them!

Beyond that, if we go back to the whole '70s ... we made a chronic error when we encouraged China to invade Vietnam. Because the Vietnamese pushed the Chinese out too when China tried to make them a crony commie state of theirs.

In reality ... we should have been approaching Vietnam very differently long ago. After all, it was the Vietnamese that put an end to the suffering in Cambodia. Yes, they helped instigate it, but they also addressed it, although they did take awhile to pull back.

Engagement is really the key here. The President is not wrong to do so, and it began before him in Vietnam. His other policies and strategy are where the problems are. Focus on those.
 
While I've been very critical of the President, and I agree with the article on Cuba and Russia (the President has reversed on Russia, heavily so, recognizing his prior stupidity), I utterly disagree on Hiroshima and Vietnam.

Hiroshima, like many things, is a place is a balance.

Japan committed attrocities, and the US firebombed places far worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- not to mention the US planned on having gas ready in the main island invasions, if civilians started to attack en masse. So, I don't see the President out there apologizing.

In fact, The Guardian lays it out best ...

Vietnam goes back to the Clinton administration, namely Republican McCain's moves to open them up to US relations. I've been very critical of McCain at times, politically, but one thing I haven't criticized him for is how a man -- severely abused by a regime, could find the peace to become friendly with his former enemy.

Hardly the President's doing, and Vietnam is a core, rabid, anti-Chinese ally that goes back to the mid-'70s. People forget, China invaded Vietnam and got their butts kicked!
 
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Our "allies" in the middle east, not named Israel, don't do shit. They are always waiting for the US to do something and may send 1 plane to help (usually just get in the way). They di this so they can blame the US for everything that happens there.
Asia? I agree, keep the pressure on China
 
Our "allies" in the middle east, not named Israel, don't do shit. They are always waiting for the US to do something and may send 1 plane to help (usually just get in the way). They di this so they can blame the US for everything that happens there.
Asia? I agree, keep the pressure on China

Really? Because the Jordanians are flying sorties near daily into Syria, their SF goes pretty much wherever ours goes, the Saudis, UAE, and Qatar have been in Yemen for a year fighting Iranian-backed Houthi militia, and the Egyptians are literally fighting daily in the Sinai against the ISIS offshoot that the US/Israel are "watching" from across the border.
 
Ace already mentioned Jordan being a real ally over there.
The Saudis only do whatever they do if it is against iranian-backed groups.
Egypt only started fighting because they were attacked.

The thing is most of the middle east countries are just happy to watch the US fight their fights for them.
Now that I think about it, some "ally" denied the US access to their air space for 1 of the gulf wars
 
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