"If we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed."
T Jefferson
T Jefferson
Our biggest threat to freedom is ignorance.....
- Thread starter Trigeek
- Start date
The irony of this internet age of instant news and information is that a good percentage of our society is just as dumb -- or dumber -- than they've ever been in our history.
The irony of this thread is that it starts with a 200 year old quote from a guy that the left decries as a vicious slave owner, and it suggests a level of wisdom that we should take to heart even though the rest of what he said is antiquated.
Slavery was built into the fabric of the founding of our country. Our Founding Fathers crafted a brilliant document -- the U.S. Constitution -- despite the fact many of them were morally flawed on the issue of human slavery.
People like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were brilliant men whose leadership played a major role in the founding of our country. But they were human beings with the types of moral imperfections and hypocrisies we all share to various extents. No, we shouldn't tear down their statues, that would be ignoring the past. But quite frankly, that's what the American History books that I grew up with did too. Neither approach is right.
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The 'vicious' slave owner was Robert E Lee. For some reason you want to put Jefferson and Washington in the same boat as Lee because they were all slave owners.
As I mentioned above, Washington and Jefferson are founding fathers of our country. On the other hand, Lee was a vile traitor who led the Confederate forces in an effort to overthrow the U.S. All statues of General Lee and other confederate traitors should be torn down in my humble opinion. The very notion that we should recognize traitors makes it crystal clear that 'honoring' them was about something else.
IMO, the same approach should be taken towards Robert e Lee. Dont tear down that statue, leave it up so we have a reminder of not only his flawed history in our story arc, but also as a reminder that people after the fact memorialized him. We have to know our history, both the good and the bad. The Christian corollary to that would be like demanding that the fall of Adam and Eve should be scrubbed from Genesis. Without that story, the entire story Arc doesn't make sense as to why we are, where we are.
I recently had someone come to me that is really struggling with some things they did 10-15 years ago. I explained to her that the past matters but its not the end of her story. We need to do the same thing as a country: acknowledge our past, accept it as a stupid decision, and move forward. Certainly don't wipe it from our minds, otherwise it will just repeat itself.
We have museums to recognize the good and the bad aspects of our history. But statues to memorialize traitors??!? WTF?
All Confederate statues are a slap in the face to all Americans, particularly African Americans when these men fought to keep their ancestors as human slaves.
You leave it up because he lost, and that story needs to be told. You leave it up because it reminds us that people held on to his loser beliefs and built a statue for him. You can go into it with whatever mindset you want, but if you took your grandchildren to a park with a statue of him you have a great opportunity to tell them how he stood for something horrible and yet people still held those same beliefs so they built it. Its not just an opportunity to tell his story, its an opportunity to tell the more important story: people do really dumb things sometimes, but we still made it. Don't leave it to textbooks that may or may not be taught (as you have alluded to), keep it in the forefront.
With a f*king STATUE??!? Really??!??
The WWII story needs to be told too. Where are all the f*king statues to Adolph Hitler??!?
Problem is that the confederate statues should have never been put up ti begins with and were a product of Jim Crow, white supremacy propaganda which supported bad legislation to erect. It’s a wrong which needs to be undone. Nooone is or should be advocating to remove founding fathers.
Why would that be bad, but having his imagery in a museum is good?With a f*king STATUE??!? Really??!??
The WWII story needs to be told too. Where are all the f*king statues to Adolph Hitler??!?
More can be learned of the fact that the Lee statues were put up after the fact than focusing on he as an individual. Post Civil War times are far too abstract IMO. We need people to know that the faulty judgments made by him lived on and people do really stupid things sometimes. Don't make those same mistakes.
Some retard defaced a Washington statue so -- naturally -- that means that 'ALL LEFTIES' want to remove statues of the Founding Fathers now.
And it's just a freaky coincidence that the vast majority of Confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow days in the South.*
You've already been called out on your bullshit. Unless you're erecting an Adolph Hitler statue, give this nonsense up, Crazy.
To sub-quote shuckster:
"People like Robert E Lee were influential men whose leadership played a major role in the arc of our country. They were human beings with the types of moral imperfections and hypocrisies we all share to various extents. No, we shouldn't tear down their statues, that would be ignoring the past. But quite frankly, that's what the American History books that I grew up with did too. Neither approach is right."
Keep pushing, Crazy. The only one looking like an idiot is you.
Some retard defaced a Washington statue so -- naturally -- that means that 'ALL LEFTIES' want to remove statues of the Founding Fathers now.
And it's just a freaky coincidence that the vast majority of Confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow days in the South.*
"Retard".
Guess I can start saying n gger and f ggot on this board and you won't be offended.
I'm not the one supporting taking steps to erase the bad parts of our history so that we end up repeating them.
So you celebrate when you see the Lee statues? Should we remove the busts of the presidents that weren't so great from the presidential museums?
They are a reminder. Do with it what you want whether it's a fond memory or a bad one. Either way their history shouldn't be erased.
No. Read the next three words very carefully: That's. The. Point.
Why would you want to keep a f*king statue to recognize and memorialize... a traitor to our country???!?
Football players were supposedly "disrespecting our flag" by kneeling in protest during the playing of our national anthem. But 'celebrating' f*king statues of traitorous generals responsible for killing thousands of Americans during the Civil War ISN'T 'disrespecting our American flag'?
Explain your chud logic for that one for us.
Ok. You win. Just erase it from history because its a bad thing and lose that reminder. Start with the statues, then the museums, then the textbooks. Eventually we'll do it all over again because without the reminder of the atrocities of our history, human nature will take over.
Some retard defaced a Washington statue so -- naturally -- that means that 'ALL LEFTIES' want to remove statues of the Founding Fathers now.
And it's just a freaky coincidence that the vast majority of Confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow days in the South.*
I am an Yank born in Mass. I still don't want any statues torn down, and yes Antifa wants to tear them all down.
This discussion reminds me of the ones from the birthers during the Obama years.
Back then it was, "WTF? Why in the world would any sane person think Obama wasn't born in the US??!?" Now, it's "WTF? Why in the world would any sane person think that statutes celebrating US traitors is a good thing??!?"
The answer to both questions is obvious.
In these cases they are. People built those confederate statues after the war, which is why they should be left up: as a reminder that not just generals or politicians do stupid crap.
Were they erected as a reminder of the stupidity of traitors? Of course not.
It's easy for you as a white male to view Confederate statues as simply a "reminder of bad behavior." What about African Americans living in the South? What are they supposed to think when a Black couple take their kids to the park and see a statue that was erected to honor Robert E Lee, a traitorous general who fought to keep their ancestors slaves?
They are supposed to be cool with a blatant public symbol of racism because in your mind it's a reminder of bad behavior??!?
No they arent, and a lot of these statues were put up well after the war during Jim Crow. There is a bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest in the TN state capital for example, that was put up in 1978, there is nothing historical about it. We have books, museums, lecturers, documentaries, etc that we can learn from history. Nobody learns history from these statues, the vast majority of which dont even provide context of the history. Most of these are honoring the people, not trying to remind people they did stupid crap.
It gives them an opportunity to tell their kids the story not only of slavery, but also of the struggle against human nature that followed. If all you focus on is the heroes, you miss half of the story.
Jews really missed the boat with their Holocaust Memorials.
It would have been much more effective to have had a bunch of f*king statues honoring Adolph Hitler and Nazi Generals around to tell their story.
Keeping the death camps standing is also honoring the holocaust under your rationale.
The camps are actually historical, you cannot compare them to statues put up years after the fact that had nothing to do with the actual war. Artifacts have historical value, random statues put up in random locations do not.
Statues are found in parks and other public areas because enough people were willing to ante-up the money to honor an individual and/or create a memorial.
The Confederate General statue defenders want to ignore the reason why these statues honoring US traitors were erected in the first place. And, more importantly, they want to act like African Americans shouldn't be offended by these public displays of 'history.'
The Confederate General statue defenders want to ignore the reason why these statues honoring US traitors were erected in the first place. And, more importantly, they want to act like African Americans shouldn't be offended by these public displays of 'history.'
No, those statues are most definitely historical. Not only because they don't just remind us of what happened but also who, but more importantly that people were dumb enough to memorialize it after the fact. Unless you're suggesting that the people involved in the Jim Crow era should just be scrubbed from history.
No they arent. If I put up a statue of Robert E. Lee in my yard tomorrow is it historical? I guess by your logic it is.
Taking down statues isnt scrubbing anything from history. Nobody learns history from random statues. We learn history from books and museums, not by seeing a statue with little to no context that sits in a town square. I am pretty sure we know about Adolph Hitler despite the fact there are no statues of him. Do we not know anything about Suddam Hussein since his statue was torn down in Iraq? Pretty sure that event didnt erase his history, in fact the tearing town of that statue was a historical event in it's own right.
THEY SHOULD BE OFFENDED, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!!!! That's the point. Being offended isn't something we should or can be protected from. Do you want to defend or apologize your use of the offensive word "retard" in this thread. To me, that is a reminder of how people still view people with disabilities as sub-human and i don't want it scrubbed from history.
There are books about Black Wall street, and I didnt say textbooks, I said books. The white washing of our educational system is a completely different discussion.
Back to my point. Were the Iraqi's wrong for tearing down the statue of Saddam? By your logic, they erased history right?
WTF? Of course people should be able to frequent parks and other areas in their community without being subjected to public displays of racism.
Sadam himself had those statues erected. The difference here is that it was people after the fact glorifying Lee need to be remembered. Tear those statues down and their history is erased. Those nameless people need to be remembered for being stupid bigots and its a time period that is largely ignored.
