ADVERTISEMENT

Police In Tulsa

Not really. You gave statistics for officer-involved shootings in Tulsa, I asked how many officers have been shot and killed in Tulsa for an apt comparison. Then you moved the goalposts by saying that many cops die by suspect shootings nationwide, which is a no shit.

I say the brandishing of the gun is unjustified, but I can see the reasoning for her doing so when she was alone (BTW - unless the audio of the dispatch was altered or redacted, she never actually radioed for backup, she only radioed to say he wouldn't show his hands and she was supposedly on her way to another call when she came across the scene, so why is all the backup and helicopter coming to that scene? If they were on the way to the domestic violence call that was so urgent as to require so much backup and a helicopter, why did she stop there? I digress.), but once backup arrived, she had more officers there, so maybe she could have switched to the taser or at least lowered the gun.

The video is very unfortunate, for sure, but the biggest differences between that situation and Crutcher (aside from the fact that Crutcher wasn't armed) is that there were more officers involved at the scene and the SUV door wasn't open. Also, the driver was ordered to get out of the vehicle, which I don't believe is protocol on a speeding traffic stop. I could be wrong though. I've never been asked to exit the car during a traffic stop. As a side note, as I noted earlier ITT that shooter in that video was caught, tried, convicted, and sentenced to death and was executed last year. It's unfortunate that a police officer lost his life, but at least the suspect got the sentence he deserved.
The helicopter pilot is her husband. He was on his way to another low priority call and had to pass by her location on the way to that other call. If you listen to their audio, he tells the other guy to turn on the recorder (the other guy had already turned it on) because they could see the situation was not progressing in a routine manner. That why they are kinda assholes about the whole thing. He just flew by to make sure his wife was ok, then shit hit the fan.

She didnt need to radio for backup, she was assigned to the call she was going to with another officer -- the second officer that arrived. She knew he had to drive down that road and that he was behind her. Audio that hasn't been released yet, when they are back by her car, apparently has her sounding stressed about him not following commands, if you believe unnamed sources in the local paper. Because it is a possible criminal investigation and what happened at that point may be the justification for her actions, they haven't released that portion of the video yet until the interviews are complete.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CommuterBob
None of the three videos posted are even close to shooting an unarmed person because you are poorly trained, poorly educated, paranoid, shoot first and ask questions later kind of cop.

Insisting that it is impossible for police to NOT pull their weapon is asinine. Cops are pulling their weapons far too soon and shooting unarmed people. There is no excuse for it.
 
She's charged with 1st degree murder which she'll never be convicted of. In my opinion manslaughter would be tough, but I'm not Huffy.

These prosecutors always seem to go for too much. They would get her on manslaughter. No way they prove this was premeditated.
 
Yeah, but you have to look at it from the standpoint of the city -- if you don't charge her and you have an LA riot or even Charlotte riot type situation, you get business owners and the silents majority of the public all fired up and angry. Better to over charge and not have the city burn down. I get it.

I would have hoped for a little moral backbone, but it will be a great trial. Won or lost in jury selection, that's for sure. If the physical evidence stacks up with the story of the officer though, you will have some careers ending over at the DA, though maybe not the DA himself.
 
These prosecutors always seem to go for too much. They would get her on manslaughter. No way they prove this was premeditated.
Good question. Let's see if the elements that must be proven for manslaughter 1 or present here:

  • When a death occurs during the commission of a misdemeanor.
  • When a person unintentionally kills in a another “in the heat of passion,” either in a “cruel or unusual manner” or by using a dangerous weapon (excluding justifiable homicide in self-defense)
  • When a person uses unnecessary lethal force in an attempt to resist a crime or after the attempt to commit a crime has failed.
  • When a physician is intoxicated and commits an act resulting in the death of a patient, including administering the wrong medication or dose.
Did the officer commit a crime? Other than the unlawful killing, the answer is no, as far as we know.

Was the crime in the "heat of passion" -- maybe here. Heat of passion in Oklahoma has a specific meaning. You have to be so enraged that you no longer are able to act reasonably under the circumstances. If there is evidence she was so angry that she squeezed the trigger, this MIGHT fit. The prosecutors will likely argue that the degree of emotional distress necessary to convict was there based on the stress of the situation. If so, god help us because every high risk police encounter becomes the foundation of a crime. You might be able to argue that it was an unintentional killing with a dangerous weapon, but again, the statute isn't to regulate or prohibit the actions of police while in the scope of their duties. Unless they are saying that her state of mind was such that she intended to act unlawfully and therefore outside the scope of her employment, and then unintentionally killed somebody, this is a stretch.

Three, this applies only to justifiable use of force by a citizen resisting a violent crime. It does not apply to an officer's unjustified use of a weapon in the score of their employment.

Four, she is not a physician and she presumably wasn't drunk.

So we have some trouble here folks. Not a lot of evidence so far to back up manslaughter charges.

The DA is reading the statute to mean that an officer can't unreasonably escalate the situation then escape criminal liability if a death occurs.

Two problems with that:

1. The statute doesnt say that, and we don't put people in prison for breaking unwritten laws.
2. So we are back to the standard of what a reasonable officer would have done under the circumstances. That's the standard regarding whether she escalated the situation while he was "surrendering" (Im not sure where we have evidence of that btw). There is no effing way they can prove this unless she made a confession. No way. At all. Its her word versus a dead guy's plus grainy inconclusive video (so far) and some physical evidence. This is a show trial.

Which is what we need. South Africa needed show trials called the Truth and Reconciliation tribunals to start the process of moving beyond apartheid. People were not imprisoned, but it was a public forum for people to express their experiences under a racist government and shame those involved. It let white folks admit fault and pledge to make amends. That is what is happening here. People that think this guy was unlawfully killed are projecting their own anger at what is going on this country in terms of racism in general, but also perceived racist policing. Their anger is focused on this case and others, but it has very little to do with the actual facts. Its an emblem of greater problems. We can tackle those without putting her in prison.
 
Last edited:
Does anyone else see "Man's laughter" when they see that charge? Every time I sound out that word when I read the posts to my children(I read all the threads to my 4 year old, she has no idea what to make of UCFBS) I say Man's laughter.
We don't know what to make of him either.

.
 
Yep. Going to be a show trial and likely lead to an acquittal. I'm not surprised that given the social/political climate that the DA decided to press charges ahead of the DOJ investigation.

I think most people will have forgotten about this by the end of next week though. They'll be some scandal to replace it.
 
did anyone else already post:

"All this about this about a few cases, but no one cares about black on black crime in chicago?"

If not, I'll go with that "woke" 65 year old HS grad Rush Limbaugh listener hot take.
 
It's a shame that guys can't approach police with drawn weapons in Charlotte freely. It's a shame that there are consequences for those same people when they're instructed too drop the weapon and don't comply.

In the meantime- steal those TVs!
 
  • Like
Reactions: jetsaholic
I have always been pro law enforcement and pro gun. Still am. i will say most of these police involved shootings that have incited riots etc are justified. This one I couldn't come to that inclusion. I have friends and family in law enforcement today. Not one of them upholds this shooting. Not one. If she couldn't see what his hand was doing how did she know it was a threat ? she didn't . Had she been alone I might have more sympathy. There were other officers with a better view that had guns on this guy . Why didn't they shoot him ? Because they knew he wasn't going for a weapon.

My buddy who works for the OCSO brought up a good point that the real guilty party is whomever put her on the streets with a gun so poorly trained and or inept. It's a danger to the cops she works with as well as the citizens she is paid to protect
 
That's the seat and door. All the windows are open including the sunroof.
_91331391_c63c0be2-3f30-47be-838a-34e26857b788.jpg

A clearer picture. That's not the seat belt or the seam of the seat. The sunroof is open, but the driver's window is up.
 
Law enforcement family. Married to an officer. No flags on her service jacket other than using pot twice as a juvenile (which the media has spun into a history of drug abuse so you will click on their articles on Facebook).

People want the impossible. They claim officers aren't trained properly, but want to pay them like unskilled workers. They want them all to have college degrees, but complain when African-American men with college degrees have better paying options in the private sector. If you raise the pay to meet these demands, the pension system will bankrupt you in less than a generation.

The people that make these demands for the most part do not own property and pay no state or federal income tax -- although the rise of the black middle class and millennials is changing that demographic. Court fee systems designed to ensure that those that are part of the system pay for the services their anti-social decisions cost are viewed as modern day slavery.

I'll pay more attention to Ben Crump, pictured above, when he starts donating some of his millions to train minority police officers and change the system. There is a police academy a few blocks from his office. I've never seen or heard him there.
 
Last edited:
_91331391_c63c0be2-3f30-47be-838a-34e26857b788.jpg

A clearer picture. That's not the seat belt or the seam of the seat. The sunroof is open, but the driver's window is up.
Using the Commuter Bob logistical analysis method, the black line above the doorsill could be the seat belt and the streak below the doorsill is blood. Notice the lighting through the back window (with window tinting) and the lighting through the sunroof. the lighting through the sunroof is more similar to the lighting through the front window. You could conclude the window was open. We can see from footage from the helicopter that the passenger side front window is clearly down. Who leaves one front window up and the other down, except Frogerz when his wife is in the car? Therefore, window down.

Also the same guy telling you the window is up is the same guy that has either knowingly lied or failed to retract past statements about this case that we know are false regarding his hands always being up, his hands being up when he was shot, his criminal record, the presence of drugs in the car, his behavior before the shooting and countless other mistruths. When you consider this guy hasnt tried a case in the last ten years that I can verify, where he had first chair responsibility, (they all settle), you start to see him for what he is: a hustler trying to game the jury pool to increase the amount he will inevitably settle for.
 
I work with a product that is arguably the most effective training tool that police and military have. Maybe not even arguably- it is. Everyone screams and yells for more training amongst police, but do absolutely nothing to influence local governments who don't fund police forces for shit.

More training costs money. Often a lot more money. At a time when many police agencies are struggling to buy common items, pay people salaries to attract talent, and deal with an ever growing list of demands.

Every day someone screams for body cameras to be used but won't support a single dime more for the agencies they're demanding use them.

The other growing narrative is COMMUNITY POLICING! They want cops to act as Officer Friendly in their neighborhood all day, not recognizing this just means you need to hire more cops to do actual police work.

But hey- why better fund your police forces when you can fork over huge money to build stadiums for billionaires? Oh that's right- because the shithead local populaces think it's an awesome idea. The same people constantly screaming about police.
 
Yep. Going to be a show trial and likely lead to an acquittal. I'm not surprised that given the social/political climate that the DA decided to press charges ahead of the DOJ investigation.

I think most people will have forgotten about this by the end of next week though. They'll be some other killing of an unarmed civilian to replace it.
FIFY
 
Using the Commuter Bob logistical analysis method, the black line above the doorsill could be the seat belt and the streak below the doorsill is blood. Notice the lighting through the back window (with window tinting) and the lighting through the sunroof. the lighting through the sunroof is more similar to the lighting through the front window. You could conclude the window was open. We can see from footage from the helicopter that the passenger side front window is clearly down. Who leaves one front window up and the other down, except Frogerz when his wife is in the car? Therefore, window down.

Also the same guy telling you the window is up is the same guy that has either knowingly lied or failed to retract past statements about this case that we know are false regarding his hands always being up, his hands being up when he was shot, his criminal record, the presence of drugs in the car, his behavior before the shooting and countless other mistruths. When you consider this guy hasnt tried a case in the last ten years that I can verify, where he had first chair responsibility, (they all settle), you start to see him for what he is: a hustler trying to game the jury pool to increase the amount he will inevitably settle for.
Could be. but what seat belt is suspended in midair? There is a gap between the start of the streak and the door frame. The front windows in many SUVs are not tinted as dark as the back windows, sometimes not at all, which would explain the lighting differences. Note how the lighting through the front window is similar to the lighting through the windshield. As for who leaves the passnger window down and the driver's window up, that's not completely unique, nor impossible. The first 911 caller said the doors were open, yet they were closed by the time the video was shot. Who the hell knows what was happening?

No doubt Crump is a shyster.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HuffyCane
None of the three videos posted are even close to shooting an unarmed person because you are ... poorly educated,

You are letting your bias towards the police show a little here. Tulsa PD was one of the first agencies in the nation to require a college degree back in the 1970s. They still do today. She has one -- a B.S. in Biology. In fact, the same leadership calling her uneducated are the same people five years ago that were demonstrating for the REDUCTION in education so more African-Americans could qualify to be police officers. (There are more American Indians and Latinos in the Department than Blacks).
 
Last edited:
Could be. but what seat belt is suspended in midair? There is a gap between the start of the streak and the door frame. The front windows in many SUVs are not tinted as dark as the back windows, sometimes not at all, which would explain the lighting differences. Note how the lighting through the front window is similar to the lighting through the windshield. As for who leaves the passnger window down and the driver's window up, that's not completely unique, nor impossible. The first 911 caller said the doors were open, yet they were closed by the time the video was shot. Who the hell knows what was happening?

No doubt Crump is a shyster.
Now you are thinking!
 
ITT: Our resident Republicans start complaining about our government not spending enough to train our police forces.

On this part, I agree with you completely, Huffy. She, and many, have degrees. But, as a whole, I would say our police forces are in need of much more training and extra education. But, that would be "Socialism!!!!"
 
ITT: Our resident Republicans start complaining about our government not spending enough to train our police forces.

On this part, I agree with you completely, Huffy. She, and many, have degrees. But, as a whole, I would say our police forces are in need of much more training and extra education. But, that would be "Socialism!!!!"

ITT: our resident pisswad liberal invents narratives to fit his own worldview.

Calling for a robustly funded police force is only socialism in the eyes of people who desperately try to justify socialism itself. Few, if any, suggest that NOT having a public police force is a good idea.

By the way- at what point will you start throwing demands on people in communities that create the majority of violent crime and drug usage in a city? You seem to have a laundry list of demands for police forces yet have nothing to say about the other side.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1ofTheseKnights
ITT: Our resident Republicans start complaining about our government not spending enough to train our police forces.

On this part, I agree with you completely, Huffy. She, and many, have degrees. But, as a whole, I would say our police forces are in need of much more training and extra education. But, that would be "Socialism!!!!"
Which is the problem with the analysis provided by many on this subject. They are taking their own subjective experiences and viewing the situation. They then try to pose their view as an objective analysis of the situation. Because Orlando cops need a GED and 18 weeks before they get their gun, they assume all cops are that way. Especially if the person is white and in a "hick town."
 
I have always been pro law enforcement and pro gun. Still am. i will say most of these police involved shootings that have incited riots etc are justified. This one I couldn't come to that inclusion. I have friends and family in law enforcement today. Not one of them upholds this shooting. Not one. If she couldn't see what his hand was doing how did she know it was a threat ? she didn't . Had she been alone I might have more sympathy. There were other officers with a better view that had guns on this guy . Why didn't they shoot him ? Because they knew he wasn't going for a weapon.

My buddy who works for the OCSO brought up a good point that the real guilty party is whomever put her on the streets with a gun so poorly trained and or inept. It's a danger to the cops she works with as well as the citizens she is paid to protect

I somewhat agree with this now that there is a lot more info out there as well as the officer's statement. Her saying she was scared to death or whatever it was stood out to me. You can be scared but training should over take that. I want to know what happened in the minutes before all the videos start though before demonizing this woman like most of you already have. She panicked when the other officer fired his taser and will end up in jail for it.
 
By the way- at what point will you start throwing demands on people in communities that create the majority of violent crime and drug usage in a city? You seem to have a laundry list of demands for police forces yet have nothing to say about the other side.

Man, somebody has to do something about those bad, bad, uppity, negroes!!!
 
I work with a product that is arguably the most effective training tool that police and military have. Maybe not even arguably- it is. Everyone screams and yells for more training amongst police, but do absolutely nothing to influence local governments who don't fund police forces for shit.

More training costs money. Often a lot more money. At a time when many police agencies are struggling to buy common items, pay people salaries to attract talent, and deal with an ever growing list of demands.

Every day someone screams for body cameras to be used but won't support a single dime more for the agencies they're demanding use them.

The other growing narrative is COMMUNITY POLICING! They want cops to act as Officer Friendly in their neighborhood all day, not recognizing this just means you need to hire more cops to do actual police work.

But hey- why better fund your police forces when you can fork over huge money to build stadiums for billionaires? Oh that's right- because the shithead local populaces think it's an awesome idea. The same people constantly screaming about police.
Yet they have money for armored military surplus vehicles? It all comes down to priorities.
 
Yet they have money for armored military surplus vehicles? It all comes down to priorities.

smh

Those "military surplus vehicles" are nothing more than big trucks that are armored. THere's nothing military about them. And they have saved officer's lives this year when they've had to respond to violent extremists at these "protests" who are hurling firebombs and gunshots at them.

These agencies also buy them for pennies on the dollar.

This is kind of like the people who go into hysterics when police arrived in riot gear to.......confront people who are rioting.
 
You guys better slow down. Chemmie is getting riled up. He's gonna throw a temper tantrum again.
 
The bottom line is if she was scared to death while carrying a gun and surrounded by other officers with guns just goes to show she should've never signed up to be a cop in the first place. She will spend the rest of her life in jail because of that.
 
The Charlotte wife released her video and I don't know why. It proves what the Police Chief said. She's saying "don't do it" meaning he was thinking of doing something really stupid, there are loud demands by police to drop the weapon, there were multiple chances given to drop it, and then after he was fired upon there is clearly a pistol lying on the ground next to him.

He was also clearly not in the car and defied orders to stay in the car and drop his weapon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UCFWayne
smh

Those "military surplus vehicles" are nothing more than big trucks that are armored. THere's nothing military about them. And they have saved officer's lives this year when they've had to respond to violent extremists at these "protests" who are hurling firebombs and gunshots at them.

These agencies also buy them for pennies on the dollar.

This is kind of like the people who go into hysterics when police arrived in riot gear to.......confront people who are rioting.
Yeah, but that's the thing, even pennies on the dollar equals thousands. It's just bad optics for the police to be "gearing up" instead of training up. I'm not saying I agree, but that's just how it looks to a public that now has mistrust of the police.
 
The Charlotte wife released her video and I don't know why. It proves what the Police Chief said. She's saying "don't do it" meaning he was thinking of doing something really stupid, there are loud demands by police to drop the weapon, there were multiple chances given to drop it, and then after he was fired upon there is clearly a pistol lying on the ground next to him.

He was also clearly not in the car and defied orders to stay in the car and drop his weapon.
nah man your just racists and dont understand.*
 
The Charlotte wife released her video and I don't know why. It proves what the Police Chief said. She's saying "don't do it" meaning he was thinking of doing something really stupid, there are loud demands by police to drop the weapon, there were multiple chances given to drop it, and then after he was fired upon there is clearly a pistol lying on the ground next to him.

He was also clearly not in the car and defied orders to stay in the car and drop his weapon.
There is no gun lying next to him in her video. All you see is one cop putting on rubber gloves and he drops one of them.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT