Props to Kamala Harris but

Crazyhole

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She's toast. She unveiled her student loan forgiveness program and it's actually pretty well thought out but was not well received. Basically, the plan offers loan forgiveness for student loans to people who open a business in a low income area and stay in business for 3 years. I'm not saying that I support that plan, but at least there is some merit to it. Well, that's not what the left wants. They want all loans forgiven, no questions asked, no effort involved and they are pizzed at her for even suggesting this plan. Pretty funny watching how her campaign is unfolding.
 

Cubs79

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She's toast. She unveiled her student loan forgiveness program and it's actually pretty well thought out but was not well received. Basically, the plan offers loan forgiveness for student loans to people who open a business in a low income area and stay in business for 3 years. I'm not saying that I support that plan, but at least there is some merit to it. Well, that's not what the left wants. They want all loans forgiven, no questions asked, no effort involved and they are pizzed at her for even suggesting this plan. Pretty funny watching how her campaign is unfolding.

I don't think it is that well thought out. Not everyone can start a business, especially in low income areas, and especially inexperienced people. That simply isn't reasonable. Plus, you are likely going to have new grads taking on even more debt, in the hopes of getting rid of their existing debt, and if they don't stay in business 3 years they are saddled with all of it. I don't mind trying to be creative with these types of things, I just don't think her plan is very good.
 

UCFWayne

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good. i hope they turn on her. i think she would be the toughest for trump to beat. i want her out of the race quickly.
 

Crazyhole

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I don't think it is that well thought out. Not everyone can start a business, especially in low income areas, and especially inexperienced people. That simply isn't reasonable. Plus, you are likely going to have new grads taking on even more debt, in the hopes of getting rid of their existing debt, and if they don't stay in business 3 years they are saddled with all of it. I don't mind trying to be creative with these types of things, I just don't think her plan is very good.

Well, she was offering 12 billion in assistance for starting up those businesses. Just shows that she is actually looking at these issues a little bit deeper than the typical candidate who is just offering free stuff in exchange for a vote.

It's just hilarious that the best candidate you guys have is getting rejected because her plans aren't "free enough".
 

DaShuckster

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you are likely going to have new grads taking on even more debt, in the hopes of getting rid of their existing debt, and if they don't stay in business 3 years they are saddled with all of it.
I'll come up with a NEW plan for forgiving THAT debt!!! :)

Seriously, lawmakers have tried to incentivize certain behaviors from the beginning of our country. While I'm on record as being against the "get out of student loan debt for free" card, I find something like Harris' plan to be a little more attractive if we're going down this road.
 

Cubs79

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Well, she was offering 12 billion in assistance for starting up those businesses. Just shows that she is actually looking at these issues a little bit deeper than the typical candidate who is just offering free stuff in exchange for a vote.

It's just hilarious that the best candidate you guys have is getting rejected because her plans aren't "free enough".

It is to limited in scope IMO, it is only for people who have received pell grants. Plus, not every college grad is ready to start their own business, or even wants to start their own business. And then you add they have to be in specific areas then I simply don't think it would benefit that many people. I don't think it does nearly enough to address the issue.

I am surprised this would be something a conservative would be for though.
 

Cubs79

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I'll come up with a NEW plan for forgiving THAT debt!!! :)

Seriously, lawmakers have tried to incentivize certain behaviors from the beginning of our country. While I'm on record as being against the "get out of student loan debt for free" card, I find something like Harris' plan to be a little more attractive if we're going down this road.

I don't mind having certain programs where the government will forgive some of their debt, I just don't like this idea. I think it is too limiting and also will end up ultimately just adding debt to a lot of people who started a business before they were prepared to.
 

Crazyhole

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It is to limited in scope IMO, it is only for people who have received pell grants. Plus, not every college grad is ready to start their own business, or even wants to start their own business. And then you add they have to be in specific areas then I simply don't think it would benefit that many people. I don't think it does nearly enough to address the issue.

I am surprised this would be something a conservative would be for though.
It's pragmatic and shows a thought process. She isn't towing the company line but looking for solutions to problems. But by all means, reject that and go for the ideologue who just throws crap against the wall and says "the top 1% will pay for it". It wouldn't be my solution but at least she is starting at a point of rationality and looking at things 3 dimensionally.
 

Cubs79

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It's pragmatic and shows a thought process. She isn't towing the company line but looking for solutions to problems. But by all means, reject that and go for the ideologue who just throws crap against the wall and says "the top 1% will pay for it". It wouldn't be my solution but at least she is starting at a point of rationality and looking at things 3 dimensionally.

If it doesn't do enough to really address the issue then it is simply window dressing. And I don't think this would do nearly enough to dress the issue. Only about 20% of students would even be eligible, but even of those eligible obviously not all of them are going to start a business. But, 69% of students last year had at least some student debt. That is a lot of students with debt who this wouldn't benefit at all.
 

Crazyhole

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If it doesn't do enough to really address the issue then it is simply window dressing. And I don't think this would do nearly enough to dress the issue. Only about 20% of students would even be eligible, but even of those eligible obviously not all of them are going to start a business. But, 69% of students last year had at least some student debt. That is a lot of students with debt who this wouldn't benefit at all.
So what's the problem with trying it out on 20% of students as opposed to doing an experiment with 100% of them? If her program were to be successful then we could look at taking another step and have some kind of basis to go off of.
 

Cubs79

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So what's the problem with trying it out on 20% of students as opposed to doing an experiment with 100% of them? If her program were to be successful then we could look at taking another step and have some kind of basis to go off of.

There is no problem in doing it necessarily, it's just that it isn't a serious solution to solve the problem with debt IMO. It isn't the program itself I have an issue with, it is that I don't believe it is big enough in scope to make a substantial difference.
 

sk8knight

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If it doesn't do enough to really address the issue then it is simply window dressing. And I don't think this would do nearly enough to dress the issue. Only about 20% of students would even be eligible, but even of those eligible obviously not all of them are going to start a business. But, 69% of students last year had at least some student debt. That is a lot of students with debt who this wouldn't benefit at all.
Why do we need the federal government to address the issue at all?
 

Cubs79

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So what's the problem with trying it out on 20% of students as opposed to doing an experiment with 100% of them? If her program were to be successful then we could look at taking another step and have some kind of basis to go off of.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...uts-weirdly-specific-student-debt-plan-fiasco

That is amazing. There are no fewer than four qualifiers in that tweet. To be eligible for what appears to be the Kamala Harris student loan debt forgiveness scheme, one must be:

- A Pell Grant recipient.
- A business owner.
- A business owner successfully operating a shop for at least three years.
- Operating in a disadvantaged community.


So, Harris’ plan would help, approximately, maybe a dozen, two dozen people? A bold plan, to say the least.



This is what Becket Adams of the Washington Examiner says about it, and the Washington examiner and Becket Adams are most certainly not liberal.
 

Cubs79

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UCFKnight85

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I don't think it's good for the economy to have so many young people coming out of school with years of debt to pay. It makes it more difficult for them to buy cars, homes, etc. It is certainly a matter of opinion whether you think it is a government issue or not.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/invest...ow-we-can-stop-it-in-its-tracks/#1e52508d6619

It may not be good for your local plumber or car mechanic who chose trade skills instead of a college to take on significant consumer debt, or take on a mortgage that consumes 35% of their paycheck either. Why are kids with debt from degrees any more deserving of having their debt wiped out than these people?

If the argument is that wiping out debt is good since it frees up personal consumerism, then you could literally make this argument for every form of debt amongst every age group. Which would be disastrous but it holds the same argument.

And studies have already shown that wiping out student loan debt would mostly help kids coming from upper middle or upper class families the most who need this help the least.
 
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Cubs79

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It may not be good for your local plumber or car mechanic who chose trade skills instead of a college to take on significant consumer debt, or take on a mortgage that consumes 35% of their paycheck either. Why are kids with debt from degrees any more deserving of having their debt wiped out than these people?

If the argument is that wiping out debt is good since it frees up personal consumerism, then you could literally make this argument for every form of debt amongst every age group. Which would be disastrous but it holds the same argument.

And studies have already shown that wiping out student loan debt would mostly help kids coming from upper middle or upper class families the most who need this help the least.

I think that is a valid argument, but I also think it leads to problems. Again, continuing to have student debt grow will continue to have effects on the economy, which would also affect people that don't have student debt. There aren't separate economies for young adults and then everyone else.

I also don't think it is anything to do with "deserving". It is either with have a generation of people starting their adult lives off in lots of debt, not getting married, not buying homes, new cars, etc etc, or we don't.

I don't know what study you are referring to, but if someone has student debt then I don't really see how their background matters that much. If they were that advantaged then wouldn't their family pay their debt for them?
 

UCFKnight85

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I think that is a valid argument, but I also think it leads to problems. Again, continuing to have student debt grow will continue to have effects on the economy, which would also affect people that don't have student debt. There aren't separate economies for young adults and then everyone else.

I also don't think it is anything to do with "deserving". It is either with have a generation of people starting their adult lives off in lots of debt, not getting married, not buying homes, new cars, etc etc, or we don't.

I don't know what study you are referring to, but if someone has student debt then I don't really see how their background matters that much. If they were that advantaged then wouldn't their family pay their debt for them?

I'm not going to reargue everything here but to your last point, not at all. You can have a family that is fairly well off and lives comfortably, but that doesn't really mean much if their child goes to NYU and racks up $110,000 in debt to obtain an Arts degree. Not to mention the other issue, being that a kid should not saddle his parents with debt when there are tons of other ways to get a degree without that debt.

And that's the point. This is all 100% voluntary. There ARE many, many other ways for kids to get a degree but these kids choose to keep attending expensive private 4 year universities that they can't afford to obtain degrees that aren't worth the debt they're incurring. Even red states like Tennessee are moving to make community colleges free for 2 years which would drastically reduce the cost burden of college and allow for saving during those 2 years.
 

Cubs79

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I'm not going to reargue everything here but to your last point, not at all. You can have a family that is fairly well off and lives comfortably, but that doesn't really mean much if their child goes to NYU and racks up $110,000 in debt to obtain an Arts degree. Not to mention the other issue, being that a kid should not saddle his parents with debt when there are tons of other ways to get a degree without that debt.

And that's the point. This is all 100% voluntary. There ARE many, many other ways for kids to get a degree but these kids choose to keep attending expensive private 4 year universities that they can't afford to obtain degrees that aren't worth the debt they're incurring. Even red states like Tennessee are moving to make community colleges free for 2 years which would drastically reduce the cost burden of college and allow for saving during those 2 years.

It is all voluntary but it is also good for a society to have an educated populace. Don't take that the wrong way, I certainly don't think everyone has to go to college and there are certainly good trade jobs and other things that don't require a 4 year degree. But, I also don't think we just need to be pushing everyone who cant afford to simply pay for college in those directions either.
 

UCFKnight85

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It is all voluntary but it is also good for a society to have an educated populace. Don't take that the wrong way, I certainly don't think everyone has to go to college and there are certainly good trade jobs and other things that don't require a 4 year degree. But, I also don't think we just need to be pushing everyone who cant afford to simply pay for college in those directions either.

The first education that needs to take place are high schools hiring financial advisors to coach kids on why it's very dumb to choose a university if it means going immediately into debt to pay for it. They need to help lay out to kids sthe many other avenues that are available, how it will keep them out of debt, what scholarships and grants are available, etc.

This should be the job of parents but a lot of parents suck, so we need to start hammering it at the HS level. A lot of senior graduate not even knowing what debt actually is.
 

Cubs79

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The first education that needs to take place are high schools hiring financial advisors to coach kids on why it's very dumb to choose a university if it means going immediately into debt to pay for it. They need to help lay out to kids sthe many other avenues that are available, how it will keep them out of debt, what scholarships and grants are available, etc.

This should be the job of parents but a lot of parents suck, so we need to start hammering it at the HS level. A lot of senior graduate not even knowing what debt actually is.

I think the bigger issue is we need public universities to be cheaper. I don't like the idea that kids have to decide their future in HS based around whether they can afford a 4 year degree or not. All of this isn't on the kids. Public universities used to be much more affordable than they are now, and that is more the issue. Something needs to be done to reduce the cost of college.
 
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UCFBS

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She's toast. She unveiled her student loan forgiveness program and it's actually pretty well thought out but was not well received. Basically, the plan offers loan forgiveness for student loans to people who open a business in a low income area and stay in business for 3 years. I'm not saying that I support that plan, but at least there is some merit to it. Well, that's not what the left wants. They want all loans forgiven, no questions asked, no effort involved and they are pizzed at her for even suggesting this plan. Pretty funny watching how her campaign is unfolding.
Yes, I really like this plan too, even if it's flawed in its initial form. She's getting good, deep conversations started.
 
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Crazyhole

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I think that is a valid argument, but I also think it leads to problems. Again, continuing to have student debt grow will continue to have effects on the economy, which would also affect people that don't have student debt. There aren't separate economies for young adults and then everyone else.

I also don't think it is anything to do with "deserving". It is either with have a generation of people starting their adult lives off in lots of debt, not getting married, not buying homes, new cars, etc etc, or we don't.

I don't know what study you are referring to, but if someone has student debt then I don't really see how their background matters that much. If they were that advantaged then wouldn't their family pay their debt for them?
Ho. Ly. Crap. So you're saying that it's better to forgive student loan debt so that those same people have the ability to borrow money to buy a car or a house?
 

UCFBS

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I think the bigger issue is we need public universities to be cheaper. I don't like the idea that kids have to decide their future in HS based around whether they can afford a 4 year degree or not.
That's why Florida, like many states, have 4-year colleges that no longer just offer 2-year degrees. It's rather inexpensive.

All of this isn't on the kids. Public universities used to be much more affordable than they are now, and that is more the issue. Something needs to be done to reduce the cost of college.
One can get a degree from a 4-year college in Florida for not much more than my degree from UCF cost in the '90s. Sorry, but I call BS.

The bigger issue is for-profit colleges, which President Obama already 'cut off' in his 2nd term.
 

Cubs79

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Ho. Ly. Crap. So you're saying that it's better to forgive student loan debt so that those same people have the ability to borrow money to buy a car or a house?

Obviously. If they have graduated they would then have jobs to be able to pay a mortgage or car note. They aren't doing that while in college so the debt just grows, and then prevents them from being able to do other things in the economy, that also of course benefit other people.
 

ChrisKnight06

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I think the discussion between Eric Weinstein and Peter Thiel regarding this was great. Some really great ideas like a college equivalency degree for those who choose a hyper rigorous condensed online route etc.

In the end they're coming at it from the angle of there currently being widespread stagnation over the last few decades in the majority of economic sectors. I think they both make great arguments as to why it's a terrible idea for generations of young people to come out saddled with debt. Simply put its just not good for society. This I think we all agree with.

To 85s point you also have those who didn't fall for the trap and instead learned a trade from the jump. Then there are others who took a different route. I don't know what the answer is. Someone is gonna feel something is unfair.

More interesting to me is the lengthy discussion they had about the overall model that needs overhauling. Incredibly bloated University systems that are predicated on a outdated growth model and prioritize fundraising over education. They give really good insight there.

https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/eric-weinstein-education?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

 

Cubs79

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I think the discussion between Eric Weinstein and Peter Thiel regarding this was great. Some really great ideas like a college equivalency degree for those who choose a hyper rigorous condensed online route etc.

In the end they're coming at it from the angle of there currently being widespread stagnation over the last few decades in the majority of economic sectors. I think they both make great arguments as to why it's a terrible idea for generations of young people to come out saddled with debt. Simply put its just not good for society. This I think we all agree with.

To 85s point you also have those who didn't fall for the trap and instead learned a trade from the jump. Then there are others who took a different route. I don't know what the answer is. Someone is gonna feel something is unfair.

More interesting to me is the lengthy discussion they had about the overall model that needs overhauling. Incredibly bloated University systems that are predicated on a outdated growth model and prioritize fundraising over education. They give really good insight there.

https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/eric-weinstein-education?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1


I don't like the idea of calling it a trap. Plenty of people graduate and get really good jobs, they just have to put some major things on hold to pay off debt. In those situations I don't believe we should have told them to go work a trade instead.
 

Crazyhole

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Yes, I really like this plan too.
I don't necessarily like it, but it's the kind of experimentation on a limited level that should be done. It addresses 3 huge problems and would give us an idea on how to move forward. If it doesn't work, we really aren't out that much. If it does, let's have a conversation about expanding it and at least have some idea of what will happen.
 

UCFBS

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I don't necessarily like it, but it's the kind of experimentation on a limited level that should be done. It addresses 3 huge problems and would give us an idea on how to move forward. If it doesn't work, we really aren't out that much. If it does, let's have a conversation about expanding it and at least have some idea of what will happen.
It only addresses African-Americans, and it has a lot of flaws. But it's a nice start, and a crapload deeper than Warren, let alone Sanders.
 

ChrisKnight06

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I don't like the idea of calling it a trap. Plenty of people graduate and get really good jobs, they just have to put some major things on hold to pay off debt. In those situations I don't believe we should have told them to go work a trade instead.

Masters Degrees are now more common than bachelor's were in the 60s. Hell there has been something like a 50% increase since I started at UCF in 2002. With that comes even more debt for what's essentially what a Bachelors used to be worth all while costs skyrocket. We don't have to call it a trap but it has trap like qualities.

And to be clear, even without overhauling the system a whole lot can be avoided with proper guidance at a much earlier age so I don't wanna get it twisted like it's all the big bad systems fault. I just think with most things there's multiple answers.
 
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DaShuckster

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The first education that needs to take place are high schools hiring financial advisors to coach kids on why it's very dumb to choose a university if it means going immediately into debt to pay for it.
Good luck with that one. Most parents -- middle income or poor -- have no clue how the college financial aid system works. Hell, I've heard stories of parents complaining to Admissions officials at public schools about why their kid "ONLY" got a $1000 scholarship to State U when some private school gave their kid $5000 dollars. Of course, if you compare the cost of the two schools, the State U is a bargain compared to the private one, but nevertheless, the Private school clearly 'wanted' their kid more. :rolleyes:
I think the bigger issue is we need public universities to be cheaper.
Cubs nailed it. The cost of higher education has gone up something like three-times the inflation rate over the past 40 years.

Once upon a time, colleges touted that students with need could go to the college of their choice on financial aid. Nowadays, they still say the same thing but package student loans as a significiant portion of that financial 'aid.' THAT is why there's so much discussion about the massive amounts of student aid debt. The system doesn't do enough IMHO to clearly communicate to these young people when they are freshmen and sophomores that a student loan is a loan you'll eventually have to pay back with interest.
 

UCFBS

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Well, she was offering 12 billion in assistance for starting up those businesses. Just shows that she is actually looking at these issues a little bit deeper than the typical candidate who is just offering free stuff in exchange for a vote.
It's just hilarious that the best candidate you guys have is getting rejected because her plans aren't "free enough".
Indeed. Harris is actually trying to get people to get beyond the 3rd Grader logic. She should be commended, not spurned.

I'm also 100% for investment in African-American businesses, because African-Americans -- statistically -- buy American far more than European-Americans. Truth. But even beyond that, it's also because we need to do so for Demographic reasons, especially Education and small businesses.

At least Harris sees that. I'm so tired of the one-time non-sense, she's actually trying to invest into people and small businesses. It pisses me off that people criticize that.
 
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UCFKnight85

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Masters Degrees are now more common than bachelor's were in the 60s. Hell there has been something like a 50% increase since I started at UCF in 2002. With that comes even more debt for what's essentially what a Bachelors used to be worth all while costs skyrocket. We don't have to call it a trap but it has trap like qualities.

And to be clear, even without overhauling the system a whole lot can be avoided with proper guidance at a much earlier age so I don't wanna get it twisted like it's all the big bad systems fault. I just think with most things there's multiple answers.

This is correct. I have an MBA and I've noticed that so many jobs now "prefer" an MBA when hiring; these are jobs that used to only require a Bachelor's at best. Of my friends that were in my MBA courses, so many of them are doing jobs that absolutely do not require an MBA.

My real good friend got a Master's in psychology and he has a job that he likes well enough, but he went into massive debt to obtain it and if he had just stayed at the theme park he was working in college, he'd easily be an upper level manager by now and making a lot more money than he does today. Without all of this debt.

And the reason you're right to call this a trap is because now he feels so compelled to stick it out with his current profession, due to the perceived notion that he must use these degrees he has and "justify" his debt, that he's choosing not to switch jobs that don't require that level of education BUT are places he could make more money.
 

UCFWayne

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if universities know the gov is just going to cover even more student loan debt by bailing them out, they arent going to suddenly lower their prices, they are going to raise them again and again and again.
 

Crazyhole

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Indeed. Harris is actually trying to get people to get beyond the 3rd Grader logic. She should be commended, not spurned.

I'm also 100% for investment in African-American businesses, because African-Americans -- statistically -- buy American far more than European-Americans. Truth. But even beyond that, it's also because we need to do so for Demographic reasons, especially Education and small businesses.

At least Harris sees that. I'm so tired of the one-time non-sense, she's actually trying to invest into people and small businesses. It pisses me off that people criticize that.
It's like the one policy proposal I've heard from the Dems in the last few years that might actually help people without breaking the bank.
 

UCFBS

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It's like the one policy proposal I've heard from the Dems in the last few years that might actually help people without breaking the bank.
It's the first, realistic -- even if flawed to start -- plan that attempts to give -- funded -- small business opportunities to grow. Domestic small businesses are not only the lifeblood of American capitalism and employment, but a primary source of major income as they aren't foreign heavy and aren't lawyered up to fight the IRS.

This has really changed my view of Harris. If she can avoid the popularist rhetoric, she might actually reach a lot of moderates and even conservatives. Despite popular US media narrative, conservatives actually do care about the demographics of minorities -- especially their long-term growth and potential.
 

UCFBS

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Good luck with that one. Most parents -- middle income or poor -- have no clue how the college financial aid system works. Hell, I've heard stories of parents complaining to Admissions officials at public schools about why their kid "ONLY" got a $1000 scholarship to State U when some private school gave their kid $5000 dollars. Of course, if you compare the cost of the two schools, the State U is a bargain compared to the private one, but nevertheless, the Private school clearly 'wanted' their kid more. :rolleyes:
^^^ I just don't know where to begin there. Because when I read that, it makes it sound like 'most parents' are complete (allegedly, of course) idiots, and think it's the job of the state and others to tell them everything.

And even if parents are alleged idiots, kids still have a chance to redeem themselves.

I love my wife because she grew up dirt poor, didn't always have a roof over her head or food on the table, and yet still found well into 5 figures of financial aid available, and not because she was poor. A lot of it was various civic organizations and not the government. She spent probably 150 hours applying, interviewing and doing other things her last 18 months. She then spent 7 years teaching, post-graduation, in a low-income area and had about $4-5K of federal grants forgiven, getting paid maybe $36K/year with a Masters Degree (and obtained a 2nd while teaching).

Once upon a time, colleges touted that students with need could go to the college of their choice on financial aid.
No, that's 100% marketing. Geez, you're just like the 'most parents' as you stated.

Nowadays, they still say the same thing but package student loans as a significiant portion of that financial 'aid.' THAT is why there's so much discussion about the massive amounts of student aid debt. The system doesn't do enough IMHO to clearly communicate to these young people when they are freshmen and sophomores that a student loan is a loan you'll eventually have to pay back with interest.
My wife is the perfect example of an exception to that rule, and she did it on her own, with little help from her parents. She's my hero.

Sigh ... as always, the phrase "We must remain educated to be free" is just so spot-on here.

"Save me government! Save me from my own ignorance, lack of caring for my own well-being, my disregard for initiative and seeking opportunity, and ... definitely those Russians trying to influence! Just tell me what to do and I'll do it! I'm incapable of finding things out on my own!

No wonder we are so f'd! Attitudes just like this. I'm going to call this the 'Aww Shucks Syndrone' (ASS). Or maybe 'AwwSS' so it's not a violation of any terms here. ;)
 
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UCFBS

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Oct 21, 2001
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I don't think it is that well thought out. Not everyone can start a business, especially in low income areas, and especially inexperienced people. That simply isn't reasonable.
^^^ This not only makes me cringe, but a lot of low income people and minorities, even more so who have been successful. "Oh, you shouldn't get opportunity, because you're not very good at it. We should leave this to the rich kids and white people."

Is that what you meant? Probably not. But that's what a lot of people hear. For every viewpoint that you make, I can see that counter. And I have a lot of colleagues that agree.

Plus, you are likely going to have new grads taking on even more debt, in the hopes of getting rid of their existing debt, and if they don't stay in business 3 years they are saddled with all of it. I don't mind trying to be creative with these types of things, I just don't think her plan is very good.
Did you even read her plan?! It's not perfect, but most of the arguments made against it utterly ignore not only the forgiveness, but the money to start the business.

I mean, at what point are you just basically saying, "Here's money to pay off your loans, no strings attached, no initiative required, no helping others needed. Come back to the government again and again instead of looking elsewhere, or trying to further the market and your community."

Harris is saying, no, we shouldn't do that
, we should require initiative and incentive to help others, the community I swear that is the argument right there, and I utterly commend Harris for making it from the left.

Otherwise, we might as well start nationalizing everything now.