Roe v Wade overturned

sk8knight

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Exactly. You can’t answer the question, because doing so is evidence that this is in fact just a moral issue to you. Also, you have no idea why the vast majority of abortions occur as the woman is not required to disclose a reason.
Every one of those babies should have a shot at life and who the hell are we to deny a life it’s chance because it’s mother is a degenerate or made bad life choices? And to do so with no due process, which is a hallmark of our freedom?

No reason is recorded intentionally because the abortion lobby doesn’t want to have an honest conversation. There are actually laws against collecting such data. In fact, there are all kinds of laws/regulations banning any information or questioning that might give a woman second thoughts when going through the procedure to kill her baby.

One side wants an honest conversation and the other side wants to control the language and dehumanize the victim which makes it far from an honest conversation. I don’t have a religious position on this and I am perfectly fine considering a societal impact position. But it needs to be a full, open, and honest conversation. If we are going to say that we are going to end innocent lives because it is better for society and that is our cultural position, then let’s make that position as clear and unambiguous as possible and that includes stating all of the undesirable aspects.
 

hemightbejeremy

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Every one of those babies should have a shot at life and who the hell are we to deny a life it’s chance because it’s mother is a degenerate or made bad life choices? And to do so with no due process, which is a hallmark of our freedom?

No reason is recorded intentionally because the abortion lobby doesn’t want to have an honest conversation. There are actually laws against collecting such data. In fact, there are all kinds of laws/regulations banning any information or questioning that might give a woman second thoughts when going through the procedure to kill her baby.

One side wants an honest conversation and the other side wants to control the language and dehumanize the victim which makes it far from an honest conversation. I don’t have a religious position on this and I am perfectly fine considering a societal impact position. But it needs to be a full, open, and honest conversation. If we are going to say that we are going to end innocent lives because it is better for society and that is our cultural position, then let’s make that position as clear and unambiguous as possible and that includes stating all of the undesirable aspects.
So there you have it. I’m glad you actually took the extreme stance to get out of admitting that you want to impose your own morality on others.
 
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DaShuckster

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...who the hell are we to deny a life it’s chance because it’s mother is a degenerate or made bad life choices? And to do so with no due process, which is a hallmark of our freedom?
A hallmark of freedom??!? What are you talking about??!!? That had to be one of the most convoluted, crazy-ass assertions I've ever read here in the WC -- and that's saying something.
One side wants an honest conversation and the other side wants to control the language...
Oh, the irony...
I don’t have a religious position on this
Clearly. :rolleyes:
 
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KnighttimeJoe

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A hallmark of freedom??!? What are you talking about??!!? That had to be one of the most convoluted, crazy-ass assertions I've ever read here in the WC -- and that's saying something.

Oh, the irony...


Clearly. :rolleyes:
I am still kind of chuckling at the "because it’s [sic] mother is a degenerate or made bad life choices?' bit.
 
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DaShuckster

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I am still kind of chuckling at the "because it’s [sic] mother is a degenerate or made bad life choices?' bit.
I'm guessing that the absence of exceptions in the event of rape or incest is because we can assume the victim 'dressed provocatively' and 'deserved' what she got.
 

redline8000

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Every one of those babies should have a shot at life and who the hell are we to deny a life it’s chance because it’s mother is a degenerate or made bad life choices? And to do so with no due process, which is a hallmark of our freedom?

No reason is recorded intentionally because the abortion lobby doesn’t want to have an honest conversation. There are actually laws against collecting such data. In fact, there are all kinds of laws/regulations banning any information or questioning that might give a woman second thoughts when going through the procedure to kill her baby.

One side wants an honest conversation and the other side wants to control the language and dehumanize the victim which makes it far from an honest conversation. I don’t have a religious position on this and I am perfectly fine considering a societal impact position. But it needs to be a full, open, and honest conversation. If we are going to say that we are going to end innocent lives because it is better for society and that is our cultural position, then let’s make that position as clear and unambiguous as possible and that includes stating all of the undesirable aspects.
getting pregnant isnt a bad life choice, its a good one and thats why the baby needs to be allowed to live.
 

sk8knight

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So there you have it. I’m glad you actually took the extreme stance to get out of admitting that you want to impose your own morality on others.
You don’t read well do you? You’re so pleased with yourself over your gotcha that you didn’t even finish reading my post so I’ll repeat myself.

I don’t want to impose my morality on others. I can accept either position, but want to have the conversation honestly. I made that perfectly clear.

I do find it quite astonishing how callously you treat a human life though. You don’t even know it, which makes me feel sorry for you. Your “morality” states that any woman can end a human life for any reason as long as that life hasn’t taken its first breath yet. I can live with that but it worries me. Worries me because I’ve seen my sons the day they are born and they are just as reliant on us as the day before for survival. On the day they are born, they are entitled to the right to life but one day before, they are not.

In case you read this far down, let me ask you. Why don’t we let mothers kill them at one day old. It’s their family, who are we to intervene? We have no stake in their family. What’s different?
 

DaShuckster

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I don’t want to impose my morality on others. I can accept either position
That's bullsh*t. Everything you've spewed on this board reeks of your holier-than-thou morality on the subject.....or have you already forgotten your 'impartial,' mother is "a degenerate who made bad life choices" line?
I do find it quite astonishing how callously you treat a human life though. You don’t even know it, which makes me feel sorry for you. Your “morality” states that any woman can end a human life for any reason as long as that life hasn’t taken its first breath yet.
MORE bullsh*t. If you listened above to Mister "Let's have an HONEST conversation about this," he acts like abortions are nine month free-for-alls with his 'one day before birth versus after birth' crap. If he happened to check, he'd discover that the vast majority of ALL abortions take place within the woman's first 13 weeks of pregnancy. FYI, the very earliest a fetus can be considered viable thanks to modern medicine, is nearly TWICE THAT LONG!
 

hemightbejeremy

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You don’t read well do you? You’re so pleased with yourself over your gotcha that you didn’t even finish reading my post so I’ll repeat myself.

I don’t want to impose my morality on others. I can accept either position, but want to have the conversation honestly. I made that perfectly clear.

I do find it quite astonishing how callously you treat a human life though. You don’t even know it, which makes me feel sorry for you. Your “morality” states that any woman can end a human life for any reason as long as that life hasn’t taken its first breath yet. I can live with that but it worries me. Worries me because I’ve seen my sons the day they are born and they are just as reliant on us as the day before for survival. On the day they are born, they are entitled to the right to life but one day before, they are not.

In case you read this far down, let me ask you. Why don’t we let mothers kill them at one day old. It’s their family, who are we to intervene? We have no stake in their family. What’s different?
Abortions are basically the same from the perspective of a fetus. The vast majority of people believe they are warranted under certain circumstances. Exactly what circumstances is where you want your specific moral compass applied. That’s the problem. Women aren’t required to provide you with a reason to meet your morality test. At least not until now.

A born baby is different than an unborn baby in that it is no longer attached to the mother physically and no longer solely reliant on the mother. But I’m sure you know this. Late term abortions where a fetus would potentially be viable outside the womb aren’t done out of convenience.
 
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Ucfmikes

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The whole abortion argument has not changed one bit since they came about. There will never be a clear cut answer

There are a ton of gray areas. Do we want to be aborting thousands of late-term fetuses? Do we want 10 or 12 year-olds having babies? There’s a bunch of arguments for each side
 

DaShuckster

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Late term abortions where a fetus would potentially be viable outside the womb aren’t done out of convenience.
Do we want to be aborting thousands of late-term fetuses?
The facts are that 66% of abortions take place by the eighth week....15% more at 9-10 weeks (81% total)...8% more at 11-12 weeks (89% total)...6% more by 13 to 15 weeks (95% total)...4% more between the 16th and 20th week (99% total) and 1% more by the 21st week (100% total).......and let's remember, fetus viability is non-existent until the 24th week at the very earliest.

So this 'late term' abortion bullsh*t isn't even high enough to register a percentage---yet nevertheless, THIS is the 'go-to' arguement for sk8 and his 'honest' discussion.

 

hemightbejeremy

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The whole abortion argument has not changed one bit since they came about. There will never be a clear cut answer

There are a ton of gray areas. Do we want to be aborting thousands of late-term fetuses? Do we want 10 or 12 year-olds having babies? There’s a bunch of arguments for each side
The landscape has changed since Roe v Wade. Mainly in of medical abortions. Done without the presence of a doctor via a prescription drug. These account for like 90+% of abortions in other rich countries and the majority here in the US. The drugs used are prescription here but available over the counter in other countries. Even if you are morally opposed to abortion, how do you enforce a ban on it? You really can’t.
 

Ucfmikes

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The facts are that 66% of abortions take place by the eighth week....15% more at 9-10 weeks (81% total)...8% more at 11-12 weeks (89% total)...6% more by 13 to 15 weeks (95% total)...4% more between the 16th and 20th week (99% total) and 1% more by the 21st week (100% total).......and let's remember, fetus viability is non-existent until the 24th week at the very earliest.

So this 'late term' abortion bullsh*t isn't even high enough to register a percentage---yet nevertheless, THIS is the 'go-to' arguement for sk8 and his 'honest' discussion.

Didn’t realize only 1 percent were after 21 weeks.
 
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Ucfmikes

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The landscape has changed since Roe v Wade. Mainly in of medical abortions. Done without the presence of a doctor via a prescription drug. These account for like 90+% of abortions in other rich countries and the majority here in the US. The drugs used are prescription here but available over the counter in other countries. Even if you are morally opposed to abortion, how do you enforce a ban on it? You really can’t.
How late into a pregnancy are the abortion pills effective
 

Trigeek

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I have to laugh at how you try and spin that one side of the argument is more righteous than the other. That one is side wants to have an honest discussion…. When you know how much BS that is and you lose all credibility with those statements
 

KnighttimeJoe

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I have to laugh at how you try and spin that one side of the argument is more righteous than the other. That one is side wants to have an honest discussion…. When you know how much BS that is and you lose all credibility with those statements
Sk8 isn’t stupid but he can say some pretty stupid things. Dude digs his heels in and will die on the mountain of straw men he creates.
 

sk8knight

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Abortions are basically the same from the perspective of a fetus. The vast majority of people believe they are warranted under certain circumstances. Exactly what circumstances is where you want your specific moral compass applied. That’s the problem. Women aren’t required to provide you with a reason to meet your morality test. At least not until now.

A born baby is different than an unborn baby in that it is no longer attached to the mother physically and no longer solely reliant on the mother. But I’m sure you know this. Late term abortions where a fetus would potentially be viable outside the womb aren’t done out of convenience.
I’m guessing that you don’t have kids since you believe that a baby being born makes it not solely reliant on the mother for life.

Late term abortions that are not medically necessary are performed regularly in this country. Look at the information coming from the DC abortionist story right now.

To be clear, you’re saying that we have no obligation to protect human life the day before it is born?
 

hemightbejeremy

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I’m guessing that you don’t have kids since you believe that a baby being born makes it not solely reliant on the mother for life.

Late term abortions that are not medically necessary are performed regularly in this country. Look at the information coming from the DC abortionist story right now.

To be clear, you’re saying that we have no obligation to protect human life the day before it is born?
I never said any of that. I have 2 kids. I didn’t and wouldn’t choose abortion in my circumstances. But I know what my circumstances are. I don’t pretend to know all the circumstances of every pregnancy that occurs and I don’t need to litigate the validity of every decision made on those pregnancies.

No, women don’t carry a pregnancy to late term only to abort out of convenience. Your belief that this is common is not grounded in reality whatsoever.

Babies delivered are not solely reliant on the mother who delivered for life. They just aren’t. Kind of weird that you think they are. Sure, the birth-mother can and often does provide care, but that is no longer a requirement after birth. It can be any guardian figure.
 

sk8knight

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I never said any of that. I have 2 kids. I didn’t and wouldn’t choose abortion in my circumstances. But I know what my circumstances are. I don’t pretend to know all the circumstances of every pregnancy that occurs and I don’t need to litigate the validity of every decision made on those pregnancies.

No, women don’t carry a pregnancy to late term only to abort out of convenience. Your belief that this is common is not grounded in reality whatsoever.

Babies delivered are not solely reliant on the mother who delivered for life. They just aren’t. Kind of weird that you think they are. Sure, the birth-mother can and often does provide care, but that is no longer a requirement after birth. It can be any guardian figure.
I’m sorry that you’re wrong about late term abortions but you are wrong. Nonetheless, it shouldn’t matter right. It’s just a part of the mother’s body until it’s “born.” So why does it make a difference to you whether late term abortions are of convenience or not?

I love that you parse the mother out once the baby is born. Regardless, that baby cannot live by itself the day it is born any more than it did the day before it is born. Mother, father, nurse, whoever, that kid is wholly reliant on another human being to live.

We should be glorifying motherhood and creating babies in this culture. It is the ultimate gift and (if you’re not religious) the only reason we exist in this world. So why are so many in this society so quick to go the other way?
 

DaShuckster

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Late term abortions that are not medically necessary are performed regularly in this country.
ABSOLUTE, TOTAL BULLSH*T.
To be clear, you’re saying that we have no obligation to protect human life the day before it is born?
Yet MORE 'the day before it's born' BULLSH*T from "Let's have an 'honest' discussion about this' sk8.

With the occasional necessity to abort due to the health circumstances of the mother (ie. she's got cancer and needs chemotherapy), 99.9% of abortions take place by the 21st week of pregnancy.
 

hemightbejeremy

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I’m sorry that you’re wrong about late term abortions but you are wrong. Nonetheless, it shouldn’t matter right. It’s just a part of the mother’s body until it’s “born.” So why does it make a difference to you whether late term abortions are of convenience or not?

I love that you parse the mother out once the baby is born. Regardless, that baby cannot live by itself the day it is born any more than it did the day before it is born. Mother, father, nurse, whoever, that kid is wholly reliant on another human being to live.

We should be glorifying motherhood and creating babies in this culture. It is the ultimate gift and (if you’re not religious) the only reason we exist in this world. So why are so many in this society so quick to go the other way?
It doesn’t make a difference to me. I’m not going down a registry role of pregnancies and investigating why they weren’t carried to term. None of my business.

And a baby can live outside the womb without need for the mother. But before that it literally shares a blood supply and nutrition with the mother. After birth it has to be provided with food and shelter. But it’s not the same thing.
 
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DaShuckster

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It doesn’t make a difference to me. I’m not going down a registry role of pregnancies and investigating why they weren’t carried to term. None of my business.
Why they weren't carried to term? Sounds like you're playing into sk8's game. Again, 99.9% of abortions occur by the end of the 21st week and the majority of abortions occur by the 9th week. As a point of reference, a full-term pregnancy lasts 40 weeks.
And a baby can live outside the womb without need for the mother. But before that it literally shares a blood supply and nutrition with the mother. After birth it has to be provided with food and shelter. But it’s not the same thing.
It is a fetus, not a baby (and all the emotions that label is deliberately meant to garner.) Even with the miracles we now see with modern medicine, fetus viability doesn't exist before the 24th-25th week at the earliest.
 

redline8000

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Why they weren't carried to term? Sounds like you're playing into sk8's game. Again, 99.9% of abortions occur by the end of the 21st week and the majority of abortions occur by the 9th week. As a point of reference, a full-term pregnancy lasts 40 weeks.

It is a fetus, not a baby (and all the emotions that label is deliberately meant to garner.) Even with the miracles we now see with modern medicine, fetus viability doesn't exist before the 24th-25th week at the earliest.
when does it transform from a fetus inti a baby?
 

Ucfmikes

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when does it transform from a fetus inti a baby?
Wtf language is this?


uneducated-opinions-uneducated.jpg
 

sk8knight

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It doesn’t make a difference to me. I’m not going down a registry role of pregnancies and investigating why they weren’t carried to term. None of my business.

And a baby can live outside the womb without need for the mother. But before that it literally shares a blood supply and nutrition with the mother. After birth it has to be provided with food and shelter. But it’s not the same thing.
So, in your mind, the day before the baby is born, even though it is essentially the same as the day it is born, it is simply a piece of it's mother. No different than a wart or pimple and thus whatever the mother wants to do with it is perfectly acceptable. Even though you could perform a c-section on that day and the baby would be no different than the natural birth the next day.

I can live with your stance but it sure feels dirty as hell. It sure as hell feels like we should be saying that the woman bearing this miracle of human life at the point that it is a viable human life has even more responsibility towards protecting that life and yet your argument is that it's not a human life until it is no longer in the womb. I simply can't square that discord, and apparently neither can you as you throw it off to "woman's choice."

Let me ask you, once they're born, are you for absolute parental rights or do you believe that the government then has the right and responsibility to infringe on parental rights?
 

DaShuckster

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So, in your mind, the day before the baby is born, even though it is essentially the same as the day it is born, it is simply a piece of it's mother.
Mister "Let's have an HONEST discussion about Abortions" continues to shovel the BULLSH*T. A full-term pregnancy is 40 weeks and the majority of the abortions are performed by the 9th week -- and 99.999 percent by the 21st week.
I can live with your stance but it sure feels dirty as hell.
Aw, how big of the guy who is okay with forcing a raped or incest victim to carry the resultant pregnancy to term.
It sure as hell feels like we should be saying that the woman bearing this miracle of human life at the point that it is a viable human life has even more responsibility towards protecting that life and yet your argument is that it's not a human life until it is no longer in the womb.
Viability -- at its EARLIEST -- begins around the 24th or 25th week.
Yet despite the apparently annoying (and thus, ignored) fact that all abortions have all taken place weeks before fetus ever reaches this point, you continue to spout your bullsh*t in a lame effort to clutch some kind of moral high-ground.
 

DaShuckster

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Here's a few FACTS to help sk8 with his 'honest' discussion about abortions:
Definitions of Premature Birth
  • Extremely preterm: When a baby is born before 28 weeks
  • Very preterm: When a baby is born between 28 and 32 weeks
  • Moderate or late preterm: When a baby is born between 32 and 37 weeks
Preterm Survival Rates
  • Births at 24 weeks: Babies born before 24 weeks have an extremely rare chance of survival. Babies born at 24 weeks have 60% to 70% chances of survival but they may have life-long health complications.
  • Births at 26 weeks: Babies born at 26 weeks have about a 78% chance of survival. 4 out of 10 children develop problems with vision, hearing or, intellectual development.
  • Births at 28 weeks: Babies born at 28 weeks have an 80% to 90% chance of survival. Statistically, they only have a 10% chance of developing long-term health problems, which include breathing problems, infections, digestive problems, and blood-related problems.
  • Births at 30 to 32 weeks: When a baby is born at 32 weeks, the chances of survival can be as high as 95%. Also, the chances of mortality and development of long-term health problems decrease drastically.
  • Births at 34 to 36 weeks: A baby born at or after 34 weeks has similar health outcomes as that of a baby born after a complete gestation period of 40 weeks. Thus, the baby is more likely to be as healthy as the baby who was not born prematurely. Also, in the long-term, the babies do well and are generally as healthy as full-term babies. However, doctors may still recommend hospital (neonatal) care for one or two more weeks.
Special Note:
Unless in rare cases where the the pregnant woman is suffering a life-threatening illness, ALL of this country's abortions have already taken place long before the 24th week.
 

hemightbejeremy

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So, in your mind, the day before the baby is born, even though it is essentially the same as the day it is born, it is simply a piece of it's mother. No different than a wart or pimple and thus whatever the mother wants to do with it is perfectly acceptable. Even though you could perform a c-section on that day and the baby would be no different than the natural birth the next day.

I can live with your stance but it sure feels dirty as hell. It sure as hell feels like we should be saying that the woman bearing this miracle of human life at the point that it is a viable human life has even more responsibility towards protecting that life and yet your argument is that it's not a human life until it is no longer in the womb. I simply can't square that discord, and apparently neither can you as you throw it off to "woman's choice."

Let me ask you, once they're born, are you for absolute parental rights or do you believe that the government then has the right and responsibility to infringe on parental rights?
In my life it’s my child and I wouldn’t opt for an abortion. But that’s my own morality at play. Also, the day before birth convenience abortion that you like to strawman about is not an actual situation that plays out in reality.