I dont really follow the news but saw something about they might default? Anyone care to help catch me up? Should I buy gold?
So whats going on with Greece?
- Thread starter UCFWayne
- Start date
Cliffs:
Country where most transactions are done under the table to evade taxes thought it'd be a good idea to implement a heavy handed socialist economic model and let people retire as early as 55. Same country had little to no economic innovation and relied heavily upon tourism.
Country was consumed by it's debts and social obligations, spent lightyears beyond what they could afford, and now are refusing to make reforms that should have been made years ago in exchange for being granted yet another bailout to remain in the Eurozone. Oh, they elected a former communist government in crisis.
It's really best at this point to let Greece default, exit the EU, and re-start with their own currency.
Country where most transactions are done under the table to evade taxes thought it'd be a good idea to implement a heavy handed socialist economic model and let people retire as early as 55. Same country had little to no economic innovation and relied heavily upon tourism.
Country was consumed by it's debts and social obligations, spent lightyears beyond what they could afford, and now are refusing to make reforms that should have been made years ago in exchange for being granted yet another bailout to remain in the Eurozone. Oh, they elected a former communist government in crisis.
It's really best at this point to let Greece default, exit the EU, and re-start with their own currency.
Another socialist country going down the drain? The US is obviously sabotaging Greece behind the scenes to continue the propagation of capitalism.
It's only a matter of time before Putin throws them a life line and recruits his former communist buddies in the Greek government to align with the new Russian alliance. Which will be awkward considering Greece is a (pathetic) NATO member.
This will almost assuredly happen once they exit the EU and their populace blames Europe.
This will almost assuredly happen once they exit the EU and their populace blames Europe.
Each time someone points a finger at social programs being the sole cause of a country's economic woes, it seems like they should be pointing their finger at government corruption. Greece is sunk because of years of massive government corruption, well beyond what we have in the U.S. Many Greek citizens know this and have no trust of the government, as such do everything they can to get out of paying taxes.
The Greek's attitude that "we don't want to pay our debts" has been around well before this far left government came in to power. Huge cultural problems and massive corruption are the problem in Greece. Trying to say "see what will happen if we don't end social programs for the poor" is disingenuous and comes from people trying to distract from the real issues of corruption (or from ignorant assholes that just parrot back this opinion)
The Greek's attitude that "we don't want to pay our debts" has been around well before this far left government came in to power. Huge cultural problems and massive corruption are the problem in Greece. Trying to say "see what will happen if we don't end social programs for the poor" is disingenuous and comes from people trying to distract from the real issues of corruption (or from ignorant assholes that just parrot back this opinion)
Wow, you fail to understand what's going on. Shocking.
Yes, Greece is a corrupt pot of crap where tax evasion was the norm and people viewed cash transactions as the standard for doing business.
However, this was simply magnified by the fact that Greece implemented some of the most socialistic welfare programs in Europe (which is saying something). For God's sakes, Greeks can currently retire at 55, live off the welfare dime for the rest of their lives, and this is after they spent a life of entitlements handed to them from Athens.
Most all of southern Europe viewed joining the Euro as their ticket to easy living and welfare expansion. It seemed so easy, knowing you'd have the northern economies propping you up, and hey, we are all on the same currency now! The problem for Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and even France to an extent is that those Euro partners would demand paybacks on bailouts when they've spent far beyond their means.
Social welfare expansion IS the problem throughout Europe. It is literally the key driver of debts and deficits in Spain, France, the UK, Italy, Greece, Belgium, Austria, Ireland, etc etc etc All of these countries are sucking their populaces dry just to try and keep these social programs afloat.
Hopefully we'll learn, but probably not.
So every time Socialism has failed, and it has failed every time, it's been because of corruption? Ever stop to think that socialism causes the corruption?
85, corrupt social welfare expansion is driving deficits in these countries. You just described the corruption in your own post. My point was that pointing the finger at the poor that rely on social support programs as a way to justify ending ANY social program is misguided. The problems in Europe should be shouldered by the assholes in power (and by the way, those assholes in power are getting a nice cut of their own from these programs) not the needy.
As of 2013 numbers, and 2014 estimates, the only European countries with more debt than the U.S. are Portugal, Italy, Ireland, and Greece.
Since "socialism has failed every time," does this mean capitalism is an even bigger failure?
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...44,178,146,136,112,111&s=GGXWDG_NGDP&grp=0&a=
Since "socialism has failed every time," does this mean capitalism is an even bigger failure?
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...44,178,146,136,112,111&s=GGXWDG_NGDP&grp=0&a=
lol. The US is becoming more and more socialist everyday. Under a leftist president the national debt has gone up 65% in six years.
Right, because the US has trended more and more towards free markets and smaller government*
By the way, over $5T of our $18T debt is owed to ourselves. We owe another $1T to domestic banks, firms, etc. There are consequences for that $5T, but at the end of the day its money due to yourself. Aka it's much more manageable.
Only $5T of our debt is foreign and just $1.3T of that is due to China, contrary to rumors that claim China owns all of our debt. Japan is a bigger debtor to the US than China is.
That's quite different from countries in Europe that owe debt almost entirely to outside creditors and other nations. Hell, 29% of all aid to Greece for the past 4 years has been from Germany alone.
chemmie's comparison is therefore predictably off base.
Only $5T of our debt is foreign and just $1.3T of that is due to China, contrary to rumors that claim China owns all of our debt. Japan is a bigger debtor to the US than China is.
That's quite different from countries in Europe that owe debt almost entirely to outside creditors and other nations. Hell, 29% of all aid to Greece for the past 4 years has been from Germany alone.
chemmie's comparison is therefore predictably off base.
So, you guys spend a whole thread telling us all how those dirty Socialists in Europe are getting themselves in terrible debt because of their Socialism, and telling us about how Socialism "always" fails. When given the fact that we have more debt than most all of those evil Socialists, the best you can come up with is "well, we're moving towards socialism!" and "its a different kind of debt!"
LOL!
Keep trying guys. But you can't lie your way around facts, no matter how hard you try. (and, Boob, I've shown you several times that the debt was because of Bush. There is no arguing it. The deficit has gone down significantly since Obama took office.)
LOL!
Keep trying guys. But you can't lie your way around facts, no matter how hard you try. (and, Boob, I've shown you several times that the debt was because of Bush. There is no arguing it. The deficit has gone down significantly since Obama took office.)
LOL
Yes, it started out so grossly high under Obama that he has "succeeded" in bringing it down to just $500B, despite the fact that the largest deficit in the history of this country prior to Obama taking office was $370B under Bush, with the deficit dropping to just $160B the following year.
So yes, he cut deficits of his own doing, and now we're on pace to run annual deficits that are the largest in our history with those deficits actually swelling to $1T per year once again in just 5-7 years.
You don't seem to understand, still, that deficits get added to total debt. And these record annual deficits that have been the norm since 2009 are adding historically record levels of debt to this country.
Oh, and most all of the debt today and for the foreseeable future will be attributed nearly entirely to expansion of entitlement programs and Obamacare. Cheers!
You can talk horse shit, or you can talk data. Here's the data:
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/49973-UpdatedBudgetProjections.pdf
There's plenty of room for reductions here that don't lead to necessitating sick and elderly keep a suicide pill in their pocket when they're out of options. Problem is, those reductions would require some politicians pissing off their favorite source of contributions, so it aint gunna happen. We'll just continue to point the fingers at the poor for being poor, and the old for being old, and the sick for being sick.
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/49973-UpdatedBudgetProjections.pdf
There's plenty of room for reductions here that don't lead to necessitating sick and elderly keep a suicide pill in their pocket when they're out of options. Problem is, those reductions would require some politicians pissing off their favorite source of contributions, so it aint gunna happen. We'll just continue to point the fingers at the poor for being poor, and the old for being old, and the sick for being sick.
You mean doubling the # of people on medicaid, food stamps, Disability, and adding Obama care is not capitalism at its best??
The deficit has not gone down. Obama continues to have the largest deficits in history and they're only getting bigger. He has added 7.5 trillion of the 18 trillion by himself and that is continuing to grow faster and faster. I've never said Bush didn't spend too much, he did. If blaming Bush is still your only go to argument then I feel bad for how stupid you are. Where did we rank in debt per capita before a socialist was elected to two terms?
Guy eats his way to 300 pounds. Cuts down to 250 slowly.
Chemmie declares him a fitness champion.
Chemmie declares him a fitness champion.
Not being aboe to control their monetary policy and fiscal policy has made it tougher on Greece to adjust and recover. Thry shouod want a weak currency and low interest rates but the omnipresent eu overlords know whats best. And thats real socialism not a small government charity that simple minded like 85 cry about.
I do love it when liberals try to talk economics. The drain to Greece was their entitlement state, 85 pretty much hit it when he was talking about their retirement age and economy. Entitlements are the biggest drain to the economy. Why do yo think Detroit went bankrupt, why do you think that most northern cities look like crap with their failing infrastructure yet they have the highest tax rates? Its called legacy costs, ask Greece how it is working for them.
Greece owes 323 Billion euros in debt and 83% of that is due to governments and organizations outside of Greece. 60% of their debt is owed to other Eurozone countries alone.
As a reminder, the entire GDP of Greece is just $242B USD.
The Greeks tried to fund their welfare programs on the backs of the actual productive countries in Europe for too long. And now they're finally sick of it and demanding that Greece change or drown in their own pool of debt.
As a reminder, the entire GDP of Greece is just $242B USD.
The Greeks tried to fund their welfare programs on the backs of the actual productive countries in Europe for too long. And now they're finally sick of it and demanding that Greece change or drown in their own pool of debt.
Puerto Rico has been in trouble. Everybody wants to blame the current governement, not wanting to admit that a country-state-comonwealth-whatever-the-fukc-Puerto-Rico-is doesn't go bankrupt overnight. It's been years and years of the government being in charge of everything and hemorraging money without making any money back. The Puerto Rican government owns all primary utilities as well as corrections/jails in the island. You can't make money that way, you make money outsourcing and charging "rent". Now, they've had to implement a 15% sales tax that's driving people crazy and up in arms about it but nobody will admit that these extreme meassures are the people's fault. 20 years ago, governor Rosello wanted to privatize all the utilities in the island. He wanted to privatize electricity, water, phones. He also wanted to privatize corrections. All of this went to a referendum and the people in the island voted against it. This is their own doing and, as bad as I may feel for my family back home having to live through this, I can't help but to feel entitled to say I told you so.
I predicted this would happen 15 years ago when I decided to move. I don't expect any Puerto Ricans to acknowledge or apologize.
Boiling it down for economically dense, at some point you run out of other people's money to siphon
Again, there's much more wrong in Greece than just the entitlement programs. Point remains, using Greece's situation to rail against ANY entitlement program in the U.S. is disingenuous. A vast majority of liberals in the U.S. would not support such a large expansion in entitlements.
LOL
Which is why the left wing is rallying around the liberal socialist zealot Bernie Sanders. Not only would the left wing surely welcome massive expansions of entitlement spending, including government run health care, they also refuse to admit that our current overextension of entitlements is going to create massive problems for us in the future. Despite what the CBO has been telling us over and over and over and over.
I don't pretend that the right wing nutcases represent all conservatives, so don't pretend that the left wing nutcases represent all liberals.
Sanders is getting support because he is correctly calling out the problems we have because of money in politics and corruption. When it comes down to it, he's not going to win an election and the U.S. will never be a socialist country.
Liberals acknowledge that the federal debt is a problem, but won't give up ground on entitlements when there's plenty of room to make cuts elsewhere (handouts to special interests, and defense waste) and increase revenues without a broader economic impact. That's all it comes down to.
Like I said, you and other liberals live in a fantasy land.
Review the chart below. We already spend roughly 63% of all expenditures on Mandatory Programs aka entitlements. The CBO has told us that this is going to explode in the coming 10-15 years- soon consuming nearly 80% of our budget or more.
This means that every thing else that isn't an entitlement will be crowded out since we won't be able to even afford the entitlements that are already on the books.
So no, it's incredibly incorrect to say theres "plenty of room" to cut elsewhere.
So to summarize your stance, you want to ignore the current realities that we've already created for ourselves, add to those mistakes, and just hope that taxing evil rich people a little more will make up for all of that.
