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Stand Your Ground Benefits a Black Man

sk8knight

Diamond Knight
Gold Member
Jun 23, 2001
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The common narrative in the media and activism is that Stand Your Ground laws are hunting licenses to kill black men, propagated by public figures like Deeray McKesson and Benjamin Crump. Moving aside the curtain of ignorance and hyperbole, SYG laws benefit the innocent, regardless of color. Here is a case where a black man benefited from Stand Your Ground, and justifiable self defense in general, when defending himself from an attack by a racist bent on doing harm.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/...-punch-of-man-who-hurled-racial-slurs-at-him/
 
Stand your Ground has got to be one of the stupidest laws ever passed by a State legislature.

Self-defense has always been a major factor in DA Offices when it comes to determining whether or not a person is charged in a death.
 
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Stand your Ground has got to be one of the stupidest laws ever passed by a State legislature.

Self-defense has always been a major factor in DA Offices when it comes to determining whether or not a person is charged in a death.
I don’t think that you understand what SYG is if you’re making that statement. Why don’t you do some research from legal analyses that aren’t media-driven and see if you feel the same way.
 
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Thats awfully tolerant of you. Glad you're so welcome to hear opposing views.
Since you can’t even meet the low bar of civility that this forum requires for honest discourse, I have no interest in hearing your views. Present your opinions in a rational manner and we will talk. There is no place in an honest discussion on laws and race for the language and imagery that you put forth.
 
I'd prefer no moderation to the partisan based crap ass "moderation" we were getting from BG.

Jesus Christ you are a whiny little bitch. You got a 2 day time out for your obvious rules violations and you cry like a little snowflake because someone punished you for the first time in your millennial helicopter-parented life.
 
I don’t think that you understand what SYG is if you’re making that statement. Why don’t you do some research from legal analyses that aren’t media-driven and see if you feel the same way.

I'm no lawyer but I think I've got a pretty good handle on SYG thankyouverymuch. (These were initially called "Make My Day" Laws--which should tell you all you need to know.) Self-defense in general, and defense of one's home has always been protected. SYG pushed 'self-defense' to the point where one only needs to subjectively 'feel threatened' to have the law allow a gun-weilder to fire away.

It's one of the reasons why that idiot who killed the man in Florida who was with his kid outside a 7/11 because the guy defended his wife who this nutjob with a concealed weapon was verbally abusing for parking illegally was INITIALLY told 'no harm, no foul' because he felt your life was threatened. When the public outcry went national, the DA's Office got scared and ended up reversing its decision.
 
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I'm no lawyer but I think I've got a pretty good handle on SYG thankyouverymuch. (These were initially called "Make My Day" Laws--which should tell you all you need to know.) Self-defense in general, and defense of one's home has always been protected. SYG pushed 'self-defense' to the point where one only needs to subjectively 'feel threatened' to have the law allow a gun-weilder to fire away.

It's one of the reasons why that idiot who killed the man in Florida who was with his kid outside a 7/11 because the guy defended his wife who this nutjob with a concealed weapon was verbally abusing for parking illegally was INITIALLY told 'no harm, no foul' because he felt your life was threatened. When the public outcry went national, the DA's Office got scared and ended up reversing its decision.
So you don’t know what a SYG clause is. Got it.
 
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Cry me a river, pussy. I don't see you getting your panties wadded up about posts like this:



Rules for thee, not for me, eh? fagggot


Just an absolutely hysterical reminder that it's AOK to make homophobic posts in here, have them reported to our 100% diligent, efficient, and give-a-shit mods @Brandon @brahmanknight @BG_Knightmare and, here we are. Maybe this troll can start talking about how Knight_Light sits all alone at UCF Basketball games. Stuff will get deleted in a New York minute and he'll get called out for making "uncalled for" posts.
 
The first pic was fine, but the statement below was not needed. Make your point without all the garbage added.
 
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Jesus Christ you are a whiny little bitch. You got a 2 day time out for your obvious rules violations and you cry like a little snowflake because someone punished you for the first time in your millennial helicopter-parented life.

Triggered
 
Yeah tell me about it. All these people talking trash about him like they knew poor, sweet, innocent, angelic little trayvon, a poor, sweet innocent child stalked and brutally murdered by a White guy....who only got Whiter as the media circus went on thanks to the magic of photoshop. Give it a few more days and they would have been showing pictures of John Wayne Gacy and saying its was Zimmerman instead of the short brown guy it actually was.

I mean yeah sure he was suspended for attacking a bus driver, sure he might have had a burglary tool and some stolen womens jewellery, yeah sure he might have been violent around school, sure he posted some photos online of him flashing gang signs and acting all gangsta thug and yeah sure he might have used "Lean" which (with prolonged use) can lead to violent outbursts and psychosis but its not like he was a thug or anything.

Nope he wasnt a thug nor was he a saint; he was just a young child on his way to the store to get some skittles when he was hunted like an animal by an evil racist White guy who just wanted to kill a black child

Living, breathing, proof that 60 years of affirmative action, negro social entitlements, job quotas, and other forms of ethnic appeasements have been an expensive and colossal failure.

Go away....
 
Then please educate us SYG ignoranuses, professor.
Sure, why not.I've posted it here before but I'll do your homework for you.

When you claim self defense, you are admitting to the underlying act, whether murder or assault or whatever. You are asserting that it was justifiable. Jurisdictions differ; some put the burden on you to prove it was justifiable, some on the state to disprove that it was justifiable. No matter which, there are common elements that must be met for it to be justifiable.

The 5 elements of self-defense are imminence, innocence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness. Stand Your Ground only eliminates the avoidance element. The other 4 still must be true and it is far more complicated than just telling someone that you are afraid. In many jurisdictions, you can't just claim SYG, you have to have a SYG hearing to determine if it applies. It's certainly not the get out of jail free card that you are implying it is. Nor is it a "Make my Day" law. Read on for knowledge.

Imminence - This is saying the attack must be happening. If someone tells you they're going to beat the hell out of you next week, that is not imminent and you cannot claim self-defense if you kill them today. You have to be at imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death.

Innocence - This generally means that if you start a fight then you cannot claim self-defense. You can regain innocence if you start a verbal altercation and then someone tries to shoot you, but generally don't go looking for fights.

Proportionality - If a small woman slaps you across the face and you shoot her dead, you most likely are going to lose a self-defense claim. If someone sucker punches you and then gets on top of you and bangs your head into the sidewalk repeatedly, then you are probably going to pass the proportionality element when using a gun to defend yourself.

Avoidance - In some jurisdictions (very few now), you have a general duty to retreat if you are faced with an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death, if there is a "safe" avenue of retreat. Stand Your Ground relieves you of the duty to retreat. This is important because "safe" avenues of retreat are subjective. Prosecutors around the country were abusing the ambiguity and convincing juries that people should retreat when doing so would've put them in more harm. Even if this one element is relieved, the rest must be true.

Reasonableness - You have to have a reasonable fear of grave bodily harm or death. Not reasonable to you, reasonable to an objective observer, such as a jury of your peers. So, it's not enough to simply say that you are afraid, your fear must be such that others would also be afraid. This protects against both the lying zealot/bigot/racist that you are worried about and also the paranoid person who's unreasonable fear drives them to murder.

This is just a very brief overview but one that most media (well people really) don't bother to learn. But knowing what is self-defense and what isn't can very much keep you out of jail for decades.
 
We had a long thread on this case already on this board. In the end, the prosecutor did the right thing in charging the shooter.
I agree. But this incident goes to show that 'the Media' apparently aren't the only ones who don't understand the law.
 
I agree. But this incident goes to show that 'the Media' apparently aren't the only ones who don't understand the law.
On that we can agree. In many jurisdictions, police don’t make the decision on potential murder cases. Those are referred to the state’s attorney for processing because of the severity of crime and nature of the case.

Florida has a stipulation built in that they cannot arrest if it is a case that it’s justifiable self-defense. This is to prevent putting someone through the process and bankrupting them unnecessarily. I want to believe the Sheriff was clumsily invoking that clause to justify the lack of arrest. I don’t want to believe that someone who spent a lifetime in law enforcement would handle it that way out of ignorance. But you never know. Regardless, he referred it to the state’s attorney so the process was followed.
 
I want to believe the Sheriff was clumsily invoking that clause to justify the lack of arrest. I don’t want to believe that someone who spent a lifetime in law enforcement would handle it that way out of ignorance. But you never know.

You blast the media and activists for misrepresenting the SYG law as a "license to kill black men" but when a Black man is clearly murdered on a convenience store surveillance camera for the whole world to see, you give a half-harded defense of a long-time sheriff who -- to put it charitably -- should have known better.

If you are going to blast people who are "mischaracterizing" this awesome law, you might want to look at some of the troubling events that are causing them to respond in this fashion.
 
You blast the media and activists for misrepresenting the SYG law as a "license to kill black men" but when a Black man is clearly murdered on a convenience store surveillance camera for the whole world to see, you give a half-harded defense of a long-time sheriff who -- to put it charitably -- should have known better.

If you are going to blast people who are "mischaracterizing" this awesome law, you might want to look at some of the troubling events that are causing them to respond in this fashion.
That was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I blasted the Sheriff in the original thread. But, yeah, I’ve read so many mischaracterizations in the media it’s disgusting. It’s not that difficult of a concept and yet very few in the media even try to understand it. They just spew out a narrative. Same with activists. Again, the problem is that the law benefits people in the communities the activists are claiming to represent. Getting rid of the law will end up putting more poor victims of violent assaults who defend themselves in jail. The rich will have great lawyers. The poor need the laws to be strong enough that the public defender can get them off.
 
It’s not that difficult of a concept and yet very few in the media even try to understand it. They just spew out a narrative.

I guess I'm not getting your point. Why bash the media when there's evidence its the police who are the ones "not understanding" it.

When a sheriff reviews the shooting of Markeis McGlockton -- including the security footage you can find on youtube -- and cites SYG in his decision NOT to charge the shooter with murder, how in God's name can the media (or those 'activists') be accused of 'stirring the pot?'
 
I guess I'm not getting your point. Why bash the media when there's evidence its the police who are the ones "not understanding" it.

When a sheriff reviews the shooting of Markeis McGlockton -- including the security footage you can find on youtube -- and cites SYG in his decision NOT to charge the shooter with murder, how in God's name can the media (or those 'activists') be accused of 'stirring the pot?'
Because the media continues to run with the very wrong idea of SYG that you had, that it is a "make my day" law or that it is a "license to kill." That's not even in the ballpark and it is simply an invented narrative to pursue an end. I'm sure you can guess the motivations of the groups as well as I can. None of them are interested in the actual truth of the situation, yet all have an impact on legislators who feel public pressure strongly, even when it is wrong. It would be an injustice to eliminate any portion of the self-defense laws at this time, not to keep them around due to some willful erroneous narrative. We need to hold journalists accountable to get the facts straight, especially since they don't seem to want to hold themselves accountable, because they do have a great deal of influence over the general populace.

I believe that the Sheriff's error was a misapplication of 776.032, which is lumped in with SYG but isn't the relief of the avoidance condition. This statue says that "A person who uses or threatens to use force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in such conduct and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use or threatened use of such force by the person, personal representative, or heirs of the person against whom the force was used or threatened... As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant." Looking back at it, I think Sheriff Gualtieri was covering his ass WRT this statute by not arresting or detaining the shooter because there may have been justifiable self-defense. He just didn't say that publicly because he'd look like he couldn't do his job. So he didn't arrest and just referred the case to the state's attorney, who determined that the state could disprove at least one of the facets of justification and charged the shooter. This is different than saying the Sheriff got the SYG wrong. He actually avoided making a decision on it at all, which is terrible IMO. Especially since the Sheriff's office would've had all of the information at hand to make the decision, including the footage and statements. It does protect him from a later civil suit.
 
Because the media continues to run with the very wrong idea of SYG that you had, that it is a "make my day" law or that it is a "license to kill." That's not even in the ballpark and it is simply an invented narrative to pursue an end.

Tell that to the son of Markeis McGlockton who watched his Dad get shot dead.

Looking back at it, I think Sheriff Gualtieri was covering his ass WRT this statute by not arresting or detaining the shooter because there may have been justifiable self-defense. He just didn't say that publicly because he'd look like he couldn't do his job. So he didn't arrest and just referred the case to the state's attorney, who determined that the state could disprove at least one of the facets of justification and charged the shooter. This is different than saying the Sheriff got the SYG wrong. He actually avoided making a decision on it at all, which is terrible IMO. Especially since the Sheriff's office would've had all of the information at hand to make the decision, including the footage and statements. It does protect him from a later civil suit.

I find it curious that you agree that the Sheriff didn't do his job when he refused to arrest the murderer of Markeis McGlockton, yet appear disgusted by the media -- and those darned 'activists' -- who responded to the initial announcement with outrage. I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure that pushing someone to the ground who is harassing my girlfriend is completely understandable and justifiable -- particularly if I make no further aggressive movement following the push.

Florida has a law on its books that apparently everyone doesn't understand but, nevertheless, it's a GOOD law. Weird.
 
Tell that to the son of Markeis McGlockton who watched his Dad get shot dead.
Nice emotional appeal. You can find kids who grew up with their fathers in states like Ohio because of an overly strong duty to retreat and that'll tug on the heartstrings as well. Bottom line, it wasn't the law that got McGlockton shot, it was Drejka. But if you're saying he was emboldened by the law, then maybe if the media characterized SYG correctly, people wouldn't have the wrong impression of the law.


I find it curious that you agree that the Sheriff didn't do his job when he refused to arrest the murderer of Markeis McGlockton, yet appear disgusted by the media -- and those darned 'activists' -- who responded to the initial announcement with outrage. I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure that pushing someone to the ground who is harassing my girlfriend is completely understandable and justifiable -- particularly if I make no further aggressive movement following the push.
Pushing someone is assault and it was not an appropriate response to the situation. He should've told him to go away or he'd call the cops. Still, given that McGlockton retreated when Drejka pulled his gun, it wasn't a reason to be killed. Had McGlockton pressed his attack, then it would be different, but he didn't. Hence, the charge of murder.

Florida has a law on its books that apparently everyone doesn't understand but, nevertheless, it's a GOOD law. Weird.
There are a great number of laws that "everyone" doesn't understand that are good laws. That's why there are lawyers. SYG protects those who are innocent victims of violent crimes who are able to defend themselves to keep those violent crimes from becoming worse. There are a ton of grey areas in these cases and having a clause that eliminates one in favor of a victim of a violent attack is a good thing. Because it only overrides one element and the rest must also be true, then there is sufficient check and balances there to ensure that we're still dealing with a justifiable action.

There are many cases where people have gone to jail for murder who should not have. You can look them up if you care; I'm guessing that you won't. But the need is strong enough that Ohio has finally joined the rest of the country in adopting SYG clauses.
 
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Pushing someone is assault and it was not an appropriate response to the situation. He should've told him to go away or he'd call the cops.

In a perfect world, all of us red-blooded males should politely ask strangers who are verbally harassing our girl friends to go away. But I would imagine there are quite a few of us who when presented with this scenario would respond by pushing the dude away from our woman.

Is this a defensive act that's worthy of being shot to death? And one that takes WEEKS before someone decides, "hmmm...you know what? MAYBE the shooter was wrong..."??? Call me crazy, but I don't think so.

In your world, this kind of sick incident is all 'the media's fault.' If the law is perceived as a 'don't you dare mess with me' license by gun-toting Rambo-wanna-bes, maybe, just maybe, it's an idiotic law.
 
In a perfect world, all of us red-blooded males should politely ask strangers who are verbally harassing our girl friends to go away. But I would imagine there are quite a few of us who when presented with this scenario would respond by pushing the dude away from our woman.

Is this a defensive act that's worthy of being shot to death? And one that takes WEEKS before someone decides, "hmmm...you know what? MAYBE the shooter was wrong..."??? Call me crazy, but I don't think so.

In your world, this kind of sick incident is all 'the media's fault.' If the law is perceived as a 'don't you dare mess with me' license by gun-toting Rambo-wanna-bes, maybe, just maybe, it's an idiotic law.
I didn't say it was all the media's fault. Don't put words in my mouth.

I also stated that shooting him was not a valid response to being shoved down given that McGlocken was retreating. So why ask the question given that I'd already made the statement? Are you even reading what I wrote?

As or how many of us would come out and push the dude down, might be a good number, but that still doesn't make it right.

You're at the point where you are ignoring what I've said, put words in my mouth, and then clung to your initial opinion despite factual rebuttal that you simply refuse to consider. The problem isn't the law, it's that you are unable to overcome your biases and emotional responses to view it in an objective manner.

I've said my piece and anything more would just lead us in circles. So, Good Day, Sir.
 
I didn't say it was all the media's fault. Don't put words in my mouth.

I also stated that shooting him was not a valid response to being shoved down given that McGlocken was retreating. So why ask the question given that I'd already made the statement? Are you even reading what I wrote?

As or how many of us would come out and push the dude down, might be a good number, but that still doesn't make it right.

You're at the point where you are ignoring what I've said, put words in my mouth, and then clung to your initial opinion despite factual rebuttal that you simply refuse to consider. The problem isn't the law, it's that you are unable to overcome your biases and emotional responses to view it in an objective manner.

I've said my piece and anything more would just lead us in circles. So, Good Day, Sir.
dashuckster has a history of putting words in other peoples mouths and then going on and on about how terrible they are. this is nothing new for him.
 
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In a perfect world, all of us red-blooded males should politely ask strangers who are verbally harassing our girl friends to go away. But I would imagine there are quite a few of us who when presented with this scenario would respond by pushing the dude away from our woman.

Is this a defensive act that's worthy of being shot to death? And one that takes WEEKS before someone decides, "hmmm...you know what? MAYBE the shooter was wrong..."??? Call me crazy, but I don't think so.

In your world, this kind of sick incident is all 'the media's fault.' If the law is perceived as a 'don't you dare mess with me' license by gun-toting Rambo-wanna-bes, maybe, just maybe, it's an idiotic law.
You should just call him a racist and be done with it.
 
I didn't say it was all the media's fault. Don't put words in my mouth.

I could have sworn your OP was about how the media and activists have ‘raised a curtain of ignorance’ around this awesome law that you claim is actually helping people.

If I’m apparently putting words in your mouth, what did you mean?
 
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