There is no one true God

[Crazyhole]

at least not in the conventional Christian, Jewish, or Muslim belief.


If there was, and that 1 God is infallible and created everything, that also means that he created sin and rebellion. Can a perfect God create something that is imperfect? If the answer is yes, that means sin is a product of perfection. If the answer is no, that means sin came from something other than God, which consequently undermines the divinity that is assumed in the faith in the one true God theory.

 

[shacket]

@Crazyhole you ok buddy?

 

[ChrisKnight06]

 

[fried-chicken]

at least not in the conventional Christian, Jewish, or Muslim belief.


If there was, and that 1 God is infallible and created everything, that also means that he created sin and rebellion. Can a perfect God create something that is imperfect? If the answer is yes, that means sin is a product of perfection. If the answer is no, that means sin came from something other than God, which consequently undermines the divinity that is assumed in the faith in the one true God theory.

Yo, you better not let your health insurance company see this post or they will cancel your plan.

 

[Crazyhole]

Yo, you better not let your health insurance company see this post or they will cancel your plan.

Hahahahahahaha! All I have to do is go to church every Sunday and keep my drinking under the cover of dark and they'll pay my bills.

 

[Crazyhole]

@Crazyhole you ok buddy?

Lol. I'm actually starting to question that. I woke up yesterday morning and was kind of in that half-awake half-dreaming state that we all have and was struck with this thought: what is the most important question in your mind right now? Think about that one for a second.

 

[shacket]

Lol. I'm actually starting to question that. I woke up yesterday morning and was kind of in that half-awake half-dreaming state that we all have and was struck with this thought: what is the most important question in your mind right now? Think about that one for a second.

We've all been there. For most of us, the question is the same.....



..... why did UCF lose to Tulsa?

 

[jt_knight]

at least not in the conventional Christian, Jewish, or Muslim belief.


If there was, and that 1 God is infallible and created everything, that also means that he created sin and rebellion. Can a perfect God create something that is imperfect? If the answer is yes, that means sin is a product of perfection. If the answer is no, that means sin came from something other than God, which consequently undermines the divinity that is assumed in the faith in the one true God theory.

I'll take the bait.

On what basis do you posit the existence of "sin" and "rebellion"? You are questioning the existence of God by appealing to the evidence of sin and rebellion, but wouldn't God's non-existence also negate the existence of the very evidence you are building your argument on? Sounds like your argument is self-defeating. To put it another way, if I judge something as "wrong," then I have implicitly admitted there is something that is "right."

 

[Crazyhole]

I'll take the bait.

On what basis do you posit the existence of "sin" and "rebellion"? You are questioning the existence of God by appealing to the evidence of sin and rebellion, but wouldn't God's non-existence also negate the existence of the very evidence you are building your argument on? Sounds like your argument is self-defeating. To put it another way, if I judge something as "wrong," then I have implicitly admitted there is something that is "right."

The basis of the faith structure of the major religions I referenced. They believe that there is a battle of good vs evil but also believe that one God created everything so that means God created evil. A perfect god doesn't create something that is imperfect.

On the flip side, if there is no god then good and evil don't exist and existence is temporal so who gives a crap?

The 3rd option is to take the bible literally when it says "thou shalt have no gods before me" and accept the idea that God isnt totally Supreme and has opponents that are working against what he created.

 

[jt_knight]

The basis of the faith structure of the major religions I referenced. They believe that there is a battle of good vs evil but also believe that one God created everything so that means God created evil. A perfect god doesn't create something that is imperfect.

On the flip side, if there is no god then good and evil don't exist and existence is temporal so who gives a crap?

The 3rd option is to take the bible literally when it says "thou shalt have no gods before me" and accept the idea that God isnt totally Supreme and has opponents that are working against what he created.

I may be misunderstanding your point but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You appeal to the existence of evil as a basis for asserting that the Abrahamic conception of God is false. But you can only claim that something is evil by first acknowledging that there is a standard of perfection (God). To put it simply, if God doesn't exist then you can't call something evil. That's why atheists, wishing to justify their belief in God's non-existence cannot appeal to the "problem of evil and suffering." I think that is the second point you are making.

To your third point, that is a creative interpretation of the first commandment and inconsistent with scripture. You must always interpret scripture by scripture and Isaiah 43:10 states:

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

 

[shacket]

Wut bout dinosaurs tho

 

[Crazyhole]

I may be misunderstanding your point but you seem to be contradicting yourself. You appeal to the existence of evil as a basis for asserting that the Abrahamic conception of God is false. But you can only claim that something is evil by first acknowledging that there is a standard of perfection (God). To put it simply, if God doesn't exist then you can't call something evil. That's why atheists, wishing to justify their belief in God's non-existence cannot appeal to the "problem of evil and suffering." I think that is the second point you are making.

To your third point, that is a creative interpretation of the first commandment and inconsistent with scripture. You must always interpret scripture by scripture and Isaiah 43:10 states:

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

So you see the conundrum. If God is perfect, how could he possibly create evil? How could he create something that rebelled against him and what would cause that being to rebel?

 

[jt_knight]

So you see the conundrum. If God is perfect, how could he possibly create evil? How could he create something that rebelled against him and what would cause that being to rebel?

God didn't create evil. God created mankind in his image; with a capacity for moral judgments and volition. Adam used his God-given capacity to reject God. Adam, as the federal head of all mankind, passed his sin nature on to his descendants. But the good news is that where Adam failed, Jesus prevailed and we can be reconciled to God.

Again, God is the standard of perfection and did not create evil as though it is something that must be spoken into existence. We create evil by our sinful actions.

Could God's creation not include beings with the capacity to sin? Sure. He did. They are called animals. But humans are distinct in that we are created in the image of God. This means we can experience his love and in response, love, glorify, and enjoy him forever.

 

[Crazyhole]

God didn't create evil. God created mankind in his image; with a capacity for moral judgments and volition. Adam used his God-given capacity to reject God. Adam, as the federal head of all mankind, passed his sin nature on to his descendants. But the good news is that where Adam failed, Jesus prevailed and we can be reconciled to God.

Again, God is the standard of perfection and did not create evil as though it is something that must be spoken into existence. We create evil by our sinful actions.

Could God's creation not include beings with the capacity to sin? Sure. He did. They are called animals. But humans are distinct in that we are created in the image of God. This means we can experience his love and in response, love, glorify, and enjoy him forever.

If we are created in gods image, explain self loathing? If God created everything where nothing existed, did he create the nothing as well? Take the "light overcomes the dark" analogy: did God create the dark as well as the light?

 

[shacket]

Serious question. In the abrahamic religions being discussed here, do most people believe that cultures that never encountered these stories went to hell? I'm talkin like early mayans and aztecs and stuff. That's weird right?

 

[Crazyhole]

Serious question. In the abrahamic religions being discussed here, do most people believe that cultures that never encountered these stories went to hell? I'm talkin like early mayans and aztecs and stuff. That's weird right?

I dont ascribe to the belief in hell like the "fire and brimstone" preachers make it out to be. I do believe in "sheol" as it is described in the book of Enoch. The catholics kind of refer to it as purgatory. Essentially its a waiting place where things aren't totally settled yet. In the apostles creed, when it references Jesus descending into hell, I think this is what it was referring to. There is a finality to existence for non-believers but I don't think it is eternal torment in hell based on just the short time we spend on earth. That idea is counterintuitive to the idea of a just God.

 

[jt_knight]

If we are created in gods image, explain self loathing? If God created everything where nothing existed, did he create the nothing as well? Take the "light overcomes the dark" analogy: did God create the dark as well as the light?

I'm trying to stay on the original topic but now you are asking about things unrelated to evil and suffering. If I answer these questions will you simply pose other questions on other topics or can we at least reach some consensus on the original question before moving on?

Because we are sinners we experience all kinds of guilt, including self loathing.
Nothing can't be created because, by definition, nothing is the absence of something (only something can be created).
Darkness is the absence of light. Before God created light (something) there was darkness (nothing or no-thing).

 

[jt_knight]

Serious question. In the abrahamic religions being discussed here, do most people believe that cultures that never encountered these stories went to hell? I'm talkin like early mayans and aztecs and stuff. That's weird right?

It's a good question and probably a bit too complex to take up on a message board but I'll try.

God's judgments are just. No one ends up in hell who doesn't justly deserve to be there. As image bearers of God, we innately understand his moral law (know good from evil). Yet, every one of us continually violates his law.

Therefore, God is just when we are judged as law breakers. But those who trust in Christ are forgiven of their sins (because Christ has already paid our debt in full). To those who never had the opportunity to hear the good news of salvation through Christ, they will be judged based on what they knew and how they responded to that knowledge.

Those who lived before the time of Christ were saved the same way we are today, by faith in God.

 

[DaShuckster]

I’m of the opinion that God is all about growth. Our lives are constantly challenged in ways that go beyond simple good and evil. That struggle is reflected in most every aspect of our lives..

It‘s also reflected in our government. One of the reasons I believe our country has lasted so long is the checks and balances that the Founding Fathers built in it that has survived our best efforts to screw it up.

 

[Crazyhole]

I'm trying to stay on the original topic but now you are asking about things unrelated to evil and suffering. If I answer these questions will you simply pose other questions on other topics or can we at least reach some consensus on the original question before moving on?

Because we are sinners we experience all kinds of guilt, including self loathing.
Nothing can't be created because, by definition, nothing is the absence of something (only something can be created).
Darkness is the absence of light. Before God created light (something) there was darkness (nothing or no-thing).

I'm staying on topic, its just a very broad one with one aspect at its core: if God created everything, he must have created sin. If God is infallible then he cant possibly have created something that is imperfect. I was just creating an extension of that by bringing the "created in his image" aspect into the fray and how that becomes problematic.

 

[fried-chicken]

Its simple yall, God is like a baker making a cake. He doesnt just close his eyes and poof that cake into existance but my mans knows what to do to bake a cake. He puts all the shit together in the correct environment and the cake becomes a cake. You would still say the baker created the cake even if he didnt just point his finger at the countertop and the cake appeared.

Maybe evil is just part of the mix? Maybe it's just an ingredient. Maybe we're in the mixing part of the process or we're in the baking part. Maybe we are the finished product or maybe not. God could still be in the process of creation waiting on the timer to ding.

 

[Crazyhole]

Its simple yall, God is like a baker making a cake. He doesnt just close his eyes and poof that cake into existance but my mans knows what to do to bake a cake. He puts all the shit together in the correct environment and the cake becomes a cake. You would still say the baker created the cake even if he didnt just point his finger at the countertop and the cake appeared.

Maybe evil is just part of the mix? Maybe it's just an ingredient. Maybe we're in the mixing part of the process or we're in the baking part. Maybe we are the finished product or maybe not. God could still be in the process of creation waiting on the timer to ding.

Interesting analogy.

I think I probably should add at this point that I realize how close the OP is to crossing the line of "woe to those who call evil good and good evil". That is definitely not my intent, just to be clear. What I'm trying to do is point out the consistencies of the Bible and the inconsistencies of a large number of faith structures that we've created.

The 1st commandment should be taken literally. That position is corroborated all throughout the Bible, from Moloch and Ba'al to the Prince of Persia to the authorities and principalities that Paul references. Where they came from is up for debate, but the fact that they exist is not.

 

[DaShuckster]

Nothing God created was ever intended to be a ‘finished product.’ One of the central features of His Plan is evolution. That’s why Fundamentalist of all religious persuasions are so off-base. Mankind is constantly evolving.

 

[shacket]

What if there is no god and we are just pretty smartish animals, with no real distinctions between us and chimpanzees and dolphins?

Or maybe there is a god that made humans and only really cared about that part, but decided to build the whole rest of the universe as part of a very convincing head fake or out of boredom.

 

[DaShuckster]

"It's so hard to believe in anything anymore. I mean, it's like, religion, you really can't take it seriously, because it seems so mythological, it seems so arbitrary... but, on the other hand, science is just pure empiricism, and by virtue of its method, it excludes metaphysics. I guess I wouldn't believe in anything anymore if it weren't for my lucky astrology mood watch."

-- Steve Martin