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"What was he doing wrong?"

Dude is former law enforcement. He probably told the officers at the scene all the right things like "I feared for my life," "I thought I saw a gun," "He was comin' right for us!!!" "He fit the description of someone who committed a crime when I was working,"--you know, all those ironclad things that can be checked off...
 
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Good lord this looks like a first class CF. Culminated by a couple of assholes deciding to go all vigilante justice resulting in an unnecessary death.

The article leaves out a lot of information that would come out at trial. It does highlight the dispatcher and that person didn’t seem to handle the situation professionally either. If this was Florida, trespassing on a construction site is a felony So that is the predicate to respond. However, in Florida, people report “suspicious persons” all the time and law enforcement is obligated to respond. I would assume Georgia is similar but maybe not. Regardless, a caller reporting that they are seeing someone acting in an unusual way and entering a construction site is unusual to have triggered a “what are they doing wrong” question.

With that, the guy wasn’t doing anything nefarious and lookie-lous aren’t often arrested for trespassing unless there’s some other factors in play. The self-defense claim would hinge on Georgia law and precedents and maybe whether the person who was shot attempted to wrestle the gun away and at some point presented a reasonable deadly threat to the asshole vigilante. Which is hard to believe would be the case, but that’s what due process is for. It’s hard to make an accurate decision without more information.

As for the refusals, this could be good for the case and not nefarious. If they successfully prosecuted, conflicts of interest might be reason for appeal. Better to take the time to get it right than rush through and have a miscarriage of justice.
 
Dude is former law enforcement. He probably told the officers at the scene all the right things like "I feared for my life," "I thought I saw a gun," "He was comin' right for us!!!" "He fit the description of someone who committed a crime when I was working,"--you know, all those ironclad things that can be checked off...
I think the whole video is material to the case. We don’t see or hear the confrontation. We do see Arbery grabbing the gun and punching McMichael. Arbery has a right to defend himself from an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death as well, so the video could very well (most likely does) depict that. Honestly, on the still slim evidence the reporting presents, I’d side on the McMichaels being murderous thugs here.

In the realm of the hypothetical, I suppose there’s a slim chance that McMichael is heard on the video saying, we’re going to wait right here for the police to arrive and they’ll sort all of this out and never actually pointed the weapon at Arbery. Which may or may not still represent a reasonable threat of death to Arbery. If then Arbery jumped McMichael, it gets complicated. Unfortunately, we can’t really tell the legally important bit in the edited video. What we have is designed to stir emotions not an honest debate.
 
I'm all about guns, but these guys are idiots for chasing someone down with a shotgun and expecting it to go well. I'm not sure how you could even claim stand your ground or anything when they took their weapons off their property onto the road and initiated the contact.
 
I'm all about guns, but these guys are idiots for chasing someone down with a shotgun and expecting it to go well. I'm not sure how you could even claim stand your ground or anything when they took their weapons off their property onto the road and initiated the contact.
I agree with you that seeing something happen and leaving the safety of your home to track someone down with your weapon would make it hard extremely hard to claim self defense. Laws in different jurisdictions are different and states like Texas are very different from states like New Jersey and Ohio, though. One thing that is common in most is that you can use your weapon to protect yourself or others from imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death. So you might be able to claim this if you leave your house because you know that the person you're tracking represents an imminent threat to someone else. But that obviously isn't the case here.

The point of debate for trial (not a lawyer but self-defense law is a hobby interest for me) as I see it here is that the situation can change rapidly and the victim can become the aggressor in a heartbeat. The legal concepts surrounding self-defense are not well understood by the general public and even most journalists and that makes it hard. We tend to think that the initiator of a confrontation is always the aggressor but that is not always true. Consider a case where the initial victim takes a gun from the initiator. Now the person with the gun is the aggressor and cannot claim self-defense if the initiator does not press the attack. That one is cut-and-dried but now consider the case where the person with a gun makes it clear that they have a weapon and they will not shoot unless the other person presses an attack. Then the other person goes ahead and attacks the gun wielder and grabs the gun. What do you do with that? Bottom-line, it's rarely as simple as the highly-edited and incomplete media portrayals make it look.
 
Dude is former law enforcement. He probably told the officers at the scene all the right things like "I feared for my life," "I thought I saw a gun," "He was comin' right for us!!!" "He fit the description of someone who committed a crime when I was working,"--you know, all those ironclad things that can be checked off...
I'd have to guess that he said something like "My kid wasn't going to shoot him. He told him to lay down, hands to the side, and wait for the police. The guy just attacked him and tried to take the gun away. You can see him punching my kid in the video. We weren't goin to kill no one"

It would be really nice to see the whole video with sound rather than just the part where the gun goes off.
 
I agree with you that seeing something happen and leaving the safety of your home to track someone down with your weapon would make it hard extremely hard to claim self defense. Laws in different jurisdictions are different and states like Texas are very different from states like New Jersey and Ohio, though. One thing that is common in most is that you can use your weapon to protect yourself or others from imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death. So you might be able to claim this if you leave your house because you know that the person you're tracking represents an imminent threat to someone else. But that obviously isn't the case here.

The point of debate for trial (not a lawyer but self-defense law is a hobby interest for me) as I see it here is that the situation can change rapidly and the victim can become the aggressor in a heartbeat. The legal concepts surrounding self-defense are not well understood by the general public and even most journalists and that makes it hard. We tend to think that the initiator of a confrontation is always the aggressor but that is not always true. Consider a case where the initial victim takes a gun from the initiator. Now the person with the gun is the aggressor and cannot claim self-defense if the initiator does not press the attack. That one is cut-and-dried but now consider the case where the person with a gun makes it clear that they have a weapon and they will not shoot unless the other person presses an attack. Then the other person goes ahead and attacks the gun wielder and grabs the gun. What do you do with that? Bottom-line, it's rarely as simple as the highly-edited and incomplete media portrayals make it look.

I think their defense is going to be the citizen's arrest statute in GA. Since they saw him looking into a window of a house on a construction site, they can claim that he committed a felony which justified their actions.
 
I'd have to guess that he said something like "My kid wasn't going to shoot him. He told him to lay down, hands to the side, and wait for the police. The guy just attacked him and tried to take the gun away. You can see him punching my kid in the video. We weren't goin to kill no one"

It would be really nice to see the whole video with sound rather than just the part where the gun goes off.

People need to learn to record in landscape mode.
 
I think their defense is going to be the citizen's arrest statute in GA. Since they saw him looking into a window of a house on a construction site, they can claim that he committed a felony which justified their actions.
I sincerely hope that's not enough justification.
 
I have an issue that he chose to conflate the Zimmerman case with this and then was inaccurate about the facts and details of that case. But then again, he is running for an elected office.

Is it really legal in Georgia to hunt from your truck on a public road?

Back to his commentary, he seems to suggest that the shooter got out of his truck and shot the victim right away. Does he have access to the full video or is he just assuming that is what happened?

I agree that these guys seem to be guilty of murder, but I hate when emotion is stirred up based on incomplete information in premature reactions. Especially when it’s for political gain. It doesn’t serve justice and causes more problems in the community.
 
I'd have to guess that he said something like "My kid wasn't going to shoot him. He told him to lay down, hands to the side, and wait for the police. The guy just attacked him and tried to take the gun away. You can see him punching my kid in the video. We weren't goin to kill no one"

It would be really nice to see the whole video with sound rather than just the part where the gun goes off.

Yeah, lol basically what I just said.
 
I have an issue that he chose to conflate the Zimmerman case with this and then was inaccurate about the facts and details of that case. But then again, he is running for an elected office.

Is it really legal in Georgia to hunt from your truck on a public road?

Back to his commentary, he seems to suggest that the shooter got out of his truck and shot the victim right away. Does he have access to the full video or is he just assuming that is what happened?

I agree that these guys seem to be guilty of murder, but I hate when emotion is stirred up based on incomplete information in premature reactions. Especially when it’s for political gain. It doesn’t serve justice and causes more problems in the community.


No. http://www.eregulations.com/georgia/hunting/unlawful-activities/
 
He should have just stormed a government building with multiple firearms... and been white.
 
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I’m confused by all this. Two guys are standing on side of road as you jog by. I assume they tell you to halt. Should you? What would have happened if he just kept jogging. Do they shoot him in the back? Why did he feel compelled to grab the gun?

If some idiot is standing in s pickup truck with a shot gun I’m wondering why would make me wrestle with him. Did he feel threatened?
I just wonder what I would do? Keep walking? Back away? If they shot him as he’s fleeing would they be within rights?

judt don’t understand all this. Crazy
 
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I’m confused by all this. Two guys are standing on side of road as you jog by. I assume they tell you to halt. Should you? What would have happened if he just kept jogging. Do they shoot him in the back? Why did he feel compelled to grab the gun?

If some idiot is standing in s pickup truck with a shot gun I’m wondering why would make me wrestle with him. Did he feel threatened?
I just wonder what I would do? Keep walking? Back away? If they shot him as he’s fleeing would they be within rights?

judt don’t understand all this. Crazy
It would be murder in almost every conceivable case if he just continued to run rather than engage with them and then they shot him.
 
I'd have to guess that he said something like "My kid wasn't going to shoot him. He told him to lay down, hands to the side, and wait for the police. The guy just attacked him and tried to take the gun away. You can see him punching my kid in the video. We weren't goin to kill no one"
Who the f*k were these two yahoos to be telling a jogger to 'lay down and wait for the police' for crying out loud???!

I'm sure this guy thought I'm getting the f*k out of here when Bubba Junior tackled him and told him to do as he was told -- which brought about the altercation that led to the jogger's death.

In other words, it was an honest accident. No harm, no foul. :rolleyes:

Seriously, how in the hell is it two months later and NO arrests??!?
 
I’m confused by all this. Two guys are standing on side of road as you jog by. I assume they tell you to halt. Should you? What would have happened if he just kept jogging. Do they shoot him in the back? Why did he feel compelled to grab the gun?

If some idiot is standing in s pickup truck with a shot gun I’m wondering why would make me wrestle with him. Did he feel threatened?
I just wonder what I would do? Keep walking? Back away? If they shot him as he’s fleeing would they be within rights?

judt don’t understand all this. Crazy

The story that I read is that he went in the other direction then they got in front of him.

'The McMichaels allegedly jumped into their pickup truck and attempted to cut the suspect off as he fled, according to the police report. Gregory McMichael said the suspect changed course and ran in the opposite direction, according to the police report.'
 
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'The McMichaels allegedly jumped into their pickup truck and attempted to cut the suspect off as he fled, according to the police report. Gregory McMichael said the suspect changed course and ran in the opposite direction, according to the police report.'
Wasn't ANYBODY asking them why they felt they had the right to stop a jogger in the first place???

As everyone can see on the video, the incident happened in the middle of a bright sunny day and the victim was CLEARLY dressed as a jogger.

On a positive note, everybody here is in agreement these dimwads should be charged with murder.
 
Wasn't ANYBODY asking them why they felt they had the right to stop a jogger in the first place???

As everyone can see on the video, the incident happened in the middle of a bright sunny day and the victim was CLEARLY dressed as a jogger.

On a positive note, everybody here is in agreement these dimwads should be charged with murder.

It's their country! They have the right to chase anybody down to ask them questions or storm the statehouse with guns. Whatever they want! This is America, commie! Love it or leave it!
 
Wasn't ANYBODY asking them why they felt they had the right to stop a jogger in the first place???

As everyone can see on the video, the incident happened in the middle of a bright sunny day and the victim was CLEARLY dressed as a jogger.

On a positive note, everybody here is in agreement these dimwads should be charged with murder.

lol
 
It's their country! They have the right to chase anybody down to ask them questions or storm the statehouse with guns.
The other day my wife and I watched a TV news report about a bunch of bearded white dudes sporting rifles and protesting the stay-at-home orders at their state capital. She remarked if they were Black or Hispanic, the police would have been johnny-on-the-spot with riot gear.

She was absolutely right.
 
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Lebron James has weighed in with his rather large reach.



Realizing that he is reacting emotionally to a terrible event, do we think it is true that Lebron is hunted everyday/everytime that he steps out of the house? That most African-Americans are literally hunted everyday/everytime they step out of the house?

If so, who is doing the hunting? Is it all white people? All cops?

If true in today's America that all African-Americans are hunted literally everyday/everytime they step out of their homes, how do we identify this happening and stop it?
 
Lebron James has weighed in with his rather large reach.



Realizing that he is reacting emotionally to a terrible event, do we think it is true that Lebron is hunted everyday/everytime that he steps out of the house? That most African-Americans are literally hunted everyday/everytime they step out of the house?

If so, who is doing the hunting? Is it all white people? All cops?

If true in today's America that all African-Americans are hunted literally everyday/everytime they step out of their homes, how do we identify this happening and stop it?

Lebron usually reacts emotionally and jumps on the bandwagon with stuff like this, in comparison MJ would never. However, Lebron was a poor kid from Akron so he is probably speaking with some experience as to how society views him.
 
Lebron usually reacts emotionally and jumps on the bandwagon with stuff like this, in comparison MJ would never. However, Lebron was a poor kid from Akron so he is probably speaking with some experience as to how society views him.
I think Lebron's background and the people that he works with in Akron gives him a prism that most of us don't have. I think that it is somewhat irresponsible for him to be overly inflammatory because people will take his word as gospel and that only hinders the efforts to bring healing and closure. But he's entitled to his opinions and I'd like to understand them if he truly believes that is that case.
 
I think Lebron's background and the people that he works with in Akron gives him a prism that most of us don't have. I think that it is somewhat irresponsible for him to be overly inflammatory because people will take his word as gospel and that only hinders the efforts to bring healing and closure. But he's entitled to his opinions and I'd like to understand them if he truly believes that is that case.

Just as you type this. Here is another incident that happened yesterday.

 
I struggle with this issue because I feel like I live in a bubble in NOVA. I do not believe I can even speak to the challenges faced by young black men. “Walk a mile in a one mans shoes.... I’ve seen racism and extremism on social media and personally but it is so rare compared to others in different circumstances.

I will say that if our society continues to promote and support acts such as what happened in Michigan state capital. We should all be concerned. If the facts of this case ring true it will be interesting to see if sides are taken. If justice is not immediate, fair and blind I would be concerned. Unfortunately this is not a new act and I fear we continue to propagate by chosen sides.

The question is is our leadership working to eliminate such hate or promoting division.
 
That was one of the most well-written articles that I've seen on a shooting like this from a local news source. It touches on all of the concepts behind Minnesota's laws and stays relatively middle ground.

One section stands out in relation to permitted carriers. there are 300,000 people in Minnesota with permits to carry firearms in public. Last year, only 61 permit holders were convicted of a crime with their firearm and "half of those involved weapons violations, such as not having the permit paperwork along, driving under the influence of alcohol or having a firearm in a courthouse or a school. None was for homicide." Also, "Since permit-to-carry became law in 2005, 11 people with permits have been convicted of homicide and using a gun in the crime."

It's not relevant to this issue per se but I thought it was interesting to see actual statistics related in a article like this.
 
Realizing that he is reacting emotionally to a terrible event, do we think it is true that Lebron is hunted everyday/everytime that he steps out of the house? That most African-Americans are literally hunted everyday/everytime they step out of the house?

If so, who is doing the hunting? Is it all white people? All cops?
some context for it. Looks like the officer who shot him was black?
The issue isn't the skin color of the shooter, it's the skin color of the victim and why his gender, size, and skin color automatically makes him 'dangerous.'

I can only imagine what a Black man like LeBron James has experienced over the course of his lifetime from people who don't recognize him.
 
The issue isn't the skin color of the shooter, it's the skin color of the victim and why his gender, size, and skin color automatically makes him 'dangerous.'

I can only imagine what a Black man like LeBron James has experienced over the course of his lifetime from people who don't recognize him.

Ok. I pointed out the skin color of the shooter since, you know, most people assume whitey was on the end of the trigger blasting away. And maybe the black cop who shot him should have known that?

And LJ is one of the biggest phonies on the planet. He hasn’t gone unrecognized since the age of 18.
 
Ok. I pointed out the skin color of the shooter since, you know, most people assume whitey was on the end of the trigger blasting away.
Ok, and I responded with my comment because, you know, most people think if it's NOT whitey on the end of the trigger blasting away it can't be racism.
And LJ is one of the biggest phonies on the planet. He hasn’t gone unrecognized since the age of 18.
Yeah that "Fraud" who grew up living in crap apartments in the poor, seedy side of Akron with a single working mother certainly wouldn't have experienced any sh*t. Jesus, what was I thinking?*
 
Ok, and I responded with my comment because, you know, most people think if it's NOT whitey on the end of the trigger blasting away it can't be racism.
Yeah that "Fraud" who grew up living in crap apartments in the poor, seedy side of Akron with a single working mother certainly wouldn't have experienced any sh*t. Jesus, what was I thinking?*

As usual, you weren’t thinking. I’m sure poor LJ has had it SOOOOOOOOOOO ROUGH since the moment he started bouncing a basketball.
 
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