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Amazon turns off Parler servers ... will MeWe and others be next? What options do they have?

UCFBS

Todd's Tiki Bar
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Oct 21, 2001
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I predicted this would eventually happen, along with other actions, well before the election. But I never predicted what would happen on the Hill though, and so fast after. That's been the catalyst for all the backfiring now, the move to go after every platform were any of these groups digitally assemble.

Which brings me to this ...

This is well beyond just banning an app, but literally taking a complete, separate entity off-line. I'm not going to get into the justifications and whether I agree or not. We've long had the debate on the Libertarian concept that companies can do what they want (always interesting to see the left embrace Libertarian concepts when it benefits them). Although when a handful of companies control over 90% ... it does suggest monopoly (which many have also brought up). But that's not what this post is about.

What I'm saying is this ...

Those who control Internet infrastructure can now destroy anyone they deem ... well, whatever. Amazon and other Cloud providers are following up on this, and they will be blacklisting Parler in the coming days for the same reason. There's been talk by various Network providers as well. In other words, even if Parler deploys its own servers in its own data center, they may very well not have any Internet connectivity. Maybe Russia or another country will step up, but then we're also back to these companies blocking them at the BGP routers or just refuse to allow their DNS to propogate, etc... Even more interesting is that all these entities are competitors to the companies doing this.

Because MeWe is next ...

MeWe had been growing far faster than Parler, and indeed, now that Parler is basically being killed, MeWe is the biggest benefactor so far. MeWe was started by a former Obama official, and I won't get into that history. Any platform used by any groups that are even remotely associated will be nuked, in some cases given no option (at least Apple did that -- even if only within 24 hours -- Google and Amazon just yanked plugs within hours or days, no options to remediate), even if 99.99% of the users and groups on those platforms have nothing to do with those groups that did.

Understand what this is ...

We're looking at the literal end of dissent and, more importantly, any discussion on any controversial topics -- at least digitally -- because anyone so labeled as even remotely hosting any group in their platforms will be nuked by the monopolies of the Internet, and have no other options. Just being labeled such is sufficient, and without recourse. At most they can sue, but they'll already be shutdown and bankrupted well before it makes it to trial, or possibly even just an injunction hearing. Google has been doing this to a number of its customers in many areas already over the years, from de-monetized YouTubers to various, small entities that have partnered with them.

At this point I'd say "Don't Shoot the Libertarian Messenger," but I'm no longer that person as of this week. I.e.,


Personal reflection: Me? I've deleted all my accounts, sans LinkedIn and Twitter, where I only talk professional, as well as sports in the case of the latter.
I've been a hard talker as a staunch Libertarian, but given all the bans of various Libertarian groups, from satire to LGBTQ that are critical of the left as much as the right, I'd like to keep my job. Because the term 'separatist' is now being used, which makes me a 'loyalist.' I wanna keep my job so I'm a conformist and loyalist. Maybe I would be different if I was half my age, but I'm long married and trying to grow old now. We'll see if the current trend 'dies down,' or if it continues 'accelerating,' but I'm not hopeful. Everything become a 'National Defense/Safety' argument since Miller of the NYTimes was thrown in jail, and all the US media spied on in 2009 (not reported until after the election in 2013).

The problem with the corporate control of Parliament 250 years ago was that with every illegal American action, even through the Tea Party, the counter rebuke by the Parliament c/o the Crown against its 13 Independent Corporate Commonwealths charted by the Crown was always worse, including killing the right to a group voice and other, related assembly. It was after their bailouts for their military adventurism and other mismanagement that led to the taxes on those , the trading corporations that controlled Parliament were salivating over the idea of getting the now well developed 13 smaller commonwealths, who's corporate charters would be revoked if rebellion took hold. They even promised the undeveloped mid-west of them to the House of Lords and the officers of the British Military as land for a new aristocracy as well.

So while I think the Trumpers were completely misguided, and just pushing more Statism, no different than the left that considers many who voted Trump -- like his increased Hispanic and LGBTQ numbers in 2020 -- as traitors to their Statism, there is still the fact that Congress serves the monopolies of the Internet frontier little different than the monopolies of the North American frontier 250 years ago. This has told me everything on where we are headed. And as most anyone disagreeing -- especially us Libertarians - have been called separatists for trying to raise red flags, I've chosen to be a loyalist, as it goes there.

History is repeating itself, and it's not about right or wrong. This is only going to cause people who would never vote for Trump to start being against Congress in general because they are controlled by these same corporations and other interests that prevent any independent options. We weren't taught this in school, along with the fact that outside of New England, most of the early battles of the American revolution were against corporate soldiers in trading forts, not British ones (but we called them British) -- even our getting our butts kicked the closer we got to the Hudson Bay Company in Canada (because no one really lived up there unless they were employees of the company) -- because we didn't want to educate kids to grow up to question capitalism like the framers did.

Even if, in the end, as the framers realized, it wasn't capitalism, but monopolies that controlled the legislative, and small farmers and small businesses were actually the capitalist key to balance. Something we've also destroyed in the lockdowns, only making the rich richer, the mega-corps bigger, and bankrupting small businesses who now employ fewer and fewer of the public. So the US is closed for business, literally ... and that includes doing what the Indies and other corporations did 250 years ago, outlaw free assembly except those they agree with.
Hence why, I'm completely ending my Libertarian postings, and conforming to the will of the ... 'Monopoly of Truth.' I hope I'm wrong on this one, but prepared as a conformist and loyalist if I'm right.
 
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Interesting how people that love free-market Capitalism suddenly hate it. This is what you guys wanted!!
Poland made it a crime to censor speech online that isnt against federal law. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that they've been occupied by both fascists and communists.
 
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Twitter and other platforms were used to juice up support for last week’s insurrection and our Usual Suspects are shocked when the tech companies respond. Jesus, what did you all expect???!?
 
Interesting how people that love free-market Capitalism suddenly hate it. This is what you guys wanted!!

Exactly. If a baker doesn't want to bake a cake for whatever reason, that's ok. It's their right as a business owner. If Twitter wants to ban a non-paying customer, that's ok. It's their right as a business owner. It's the same principle whether you agree with the reasoning or not.
 
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This is a really well written post.

Let me try to explain why I think your conclusion is wrong - that this is the literal end of dissent. I say this not to argue, but to give you an alternative perspective in as few words as I can.

The 1st Amendment can only exist because we regulate speech as a society. It's not illegal to be a member of the KKK or express racist viewpoints. But no one else is required to tolerate those views. You can be shunned from polite society. Fired from your job. Etc. If you express public sympathy to NAMBLA, no one wants the 1st Amendment to protect your job as a Kindergarten teacher. No one called it "cancel culture" when society took active steps to shun members of the KKK.

That's not how it works in China or Russia. If you're views are considered a threat to the power structure, they are oppressed via government action. A private company - Amazon - would never have had to make the call to shut down Parler in China because the government would never have allowed it to exist in the first place.

The fact that private entities - not government - are taking these steps is a sign that the 1st Amendment is healthy - not a sign it is under threat. The system is working. Society is trying to figure out what is acceptable and what isn't. It's messy and mis-steps will be made. Maybe shutting Parler down is a bridge too far. Maybe it was necessary to disrupt the organization of an active threat to attack the inauguration.

If you prefer a society with a healthy 1st Amendment, then you must accept the messy role of society figuring this out. Even if you disagree with Amazon in this instance, at least recognize that this is precisely how we prevent government from becoming the arbiter of speech.
 
That’s what I thought. But, hey, thanks for the talking point, Much appreciated.
How is that a talking point? Its pretty obvious that you don't want people to be treated equally here, or am I wrong and you think anybody that organized the Minneapolis riots should also be banned from twitter?
 
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This is a really well written post.

Let me try to explain why I think your conclusion is wrong - that this is the literal end of dissent. I say this not to argue, but to give you an alternative perspective in as few words as I can.

The 1st Amendment can only exist because we regulate speech as a society. It's not illegal to be a member of the KKK or express racist viewpoints. But no one else is required to tolerate those views. You can be shunned from polite society. Fired from your job. Etc. If you express public sympathy to NAMBLA, no one wants the 1st Amendment to protect your job as a Kindergarten teacher. No one called it "cancel culture" when society took active steps to shun members of the KKK.

That's not how it works in China or Russia. If you're views are considered a threat to the power structure, they are oppressed via government action. A private company - Amazon - would never have had to make the call to shut down Parler in China because the government would never have allowed it to exist in the first place.

The fact that private entities - not government - are taking these steps is a sign that the 1st Amendment is healthy - not a sign it is under threat. The system is working. Society is trying to figure out what is acceptable and what isn't. It's messy and mis-steps will be made. Maybe shutting Parler down is a bridge too far. Maybe it was necessary to disrupt the organization of an active threat to attack the inauguration.

If you prefer a society with a healthy 1st Amendment, then you must accept the messy role of society figuring this out. Even if you disagree with Amazon in this instance, at least recognize that this is precisely how we prevent government from becoming the arbiter of speech.
What are your thoughts on how Amazon, Google, Apple, and Microsoft are becoming an oligarchy?
 
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This is a really well written post.

Let me try to explain why I think your conclusion is wrong - that this is the literal end of dissent. I say this not to argue, but to give you an alternative perspective in as few words as I can.

The 1st Amendment can only exist because we regulate speech as a society. It's not illegal to be a member of the KKK or express racist viewpoints. But no one else is required to tolerate those views. You can be shunned from polite society. Fired from your job. Etc. If you express public sympathy to NAMBLA, no one wants the 1st Amendment to protect your job as a Kindergarten teacher. No one called it "cancel culture" when society took active steps to shun members of the KKK.

That's not how it works in China or Russia. If you're views are considered a threat to the power structure, they are oppressed via government action. A private company - Amazon - would never have had to make the call to shut down Parler in China because the government would never have allowed it to exist in the first place.

The fact that private entities - not government - are taking these steps is a sign that the 1st Amendment is healthy - not a sign it is under threat. The system is working. Society is trying to figure out what is acceptable and what isn't. It's messy and mis-steps will be made. Maybe shutting Parler down is a bridge too far. Maybe it was necessary to disrupt the organization of an active threat to attack the inauguration.

If you prefer a society with a healthy 1st Amendment, then you must accept the messy role of society figuring this out. Even if you disagree with Amazon in this instance, at least recognize that this is precisely how we prevent government from becoming the arbiter of speech.
I don’t think the writer’s of the 1st amendment had the forethought to imagine a corporation that was large enough to suppress speech in the way that Apple, Google, Twitter, etc are able to(that’s right, I will dangle that preposition right there). So it seems that the spirit of the amendment is still violated by a group that is able to shutdown ideas of one faction in favor of another and in the present case it is in favor of the incoming administration and its ideology. That’s still very dangerous and in contrast to the rights declared in the Declaration of Independence.
 
What are your thoughts on how Amazon, Google, Apple, and Microsoft are becoming an oligarchy?

I don't think oligarchy is the right term but yea I'm with you. I think sites like FB and Youtube are the most problematic, where they're competing for attention. Revenue is based on how much time you spend on their site, so algorithms iterate on that parameter. Content that inflames you emotionally keeps you engaged. So the entire revenue model is friendly to political radicalization.

I do think Amazon has serious issues too. You can't blame consumers for buying Amazon Basics batteries (I do), but Amazon has created a position where if they simply decide to produce a commodity like product, they are instantly a huge player in the market. I don't think that's good.

So yea I think many of these tech companies are going to have to be broken up. Amazon's product division, internet infrastructure division, and e-commerce probably need to be separate companies. I think Elizabeth Warren has been the most realistic on what should happen in this area.
 
I don’t think the writer’s of the 1st amendment had the forethought to imagine a corporation that was large enough to suppress speech in the way that Apple, Google, Twitter, etc are able to(that’s right, I will dangle that preposition right there). So it seems that the spirit of the amendment is still violated by a group that is able to shutdown ideas of one faction in favor of another and in the present case it is in favor of the incoming administration and its ideology. That’s still very dangerous and in contrast to the rights declared in the Declaration of Independence.

How would the founders respond to the 1st Amendment being used as a shield for sophisticated, weaponized disinformation campaigns by agenda driven political actors, including adversarial foreign governments? I don't know the answer to your question or this one.
 
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How would the founders respond to the 1st Amendment being used as a shield for sophisticated, weaponized disinformation campaigns by agenda driven political actors, including adversarial foreign governments? I don't know the answer to your question or this one.
Twitter has on occasion blocked misinformation, but mostly it is down on ideological grounds. They have blocked news stories that weee true but not beneficial to their chosen party and legitimate arguments against the prevailing narrative on Covid. It’s arbitrary and dangerous l.
 
I don’t think the writer’s of the 1st amendment had the forethought to imagine a corporation that was large enough to suppress speech in the way that Apple, Google, Twitter, etc are able to(that’s right, I will dangle that preposition right there). So it seems that the spirit of the amendment is still violated by a group that is able to shutdown ideas of one faction in favor of another and in the present case it is in favor of the incoming administration and its ideology. That’s still very dangerous and in contrast to the rights declared in the Declaration of Independence.
That’s not how it works. Nobody is “suppressing” speech. Private entities are choosing not to be the megaphone for certain speech (domestic terrorist plots). When the first amendment was authored it related to someone literally speaking or assembling. There was no guarantee that those people were entitled to broadcast their ideas in whatever private media existed at the time. Social media like traditional media is privately run and with that comes certain biases. If you want a public option then lobby your congressional representatives to create one using your taxes.
 
I don’t think the writer’s of the 1st amendment had the forethought to imagine a corporation that was large enough to suppress speech in the way that Apple, Google, Twitter, etc are able to(that’s right, I will dangle that preposition right there).
I will dangle out the preposition that the Founding Fathers specifically protected freedom of speech from interference by the government.

And I will further dangle the preposition that the Supreme Court recognizes that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a breach of the peace or cause violence.

But we're talking HERE about the suppression of free speech on a platform owned by a private entity. I guess if it was a baker instead of a social media company and we were taking about a ...gasp!...gay wedding instead of your run-of-the-mill insurrectionists, it would be okay, right guys?
 
Facebook is probably not permanently banning him , they said indefinitely which means at least through the inauguration
 
I will dangle out the preposition that the Founding Fathers specifically protected freedom of speech from interference by the government.

And I will further dangle the preposition that the Supreme Court recognizes that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a breach of the peace or cause violence.

But we're talking HERE about the suppression of free speech on a platform owned by a private entity. I guess if it was a baker instead of a social media company and we were taking about a ...gasp!...gay wedding instead of your run-of-the-mill insurrectionists, it would be okay, right guys?
If 2 companies controlled 98% of the access to cakes, it would be comparable. As it stands, that's how much Amazon and Google control. As we saw this weekend, they can be every bit as monopolistic as standard oil was.
I agree with you that this isnt a free speech issue and wish people would knock off that rhetoric.
 
I don't think oligarchy is the right term but yea I'm with you. I think sites like FB and Youtube are the most problematic, where they're competing for attention. Revenue is based on how much time you spend on their site, so algorithms iterate on that parameter. Content that inflames you emotionally keeps you engaged. So the entire revenue model is friendly to political radicalization.

I do think Amazon has serious issues too. You can't blame consumers for buying Amazon Basics batteries (I do), but Amazon has created a position where if they simply decide to produce a commodity like product, they are instantly a huge player in the market. I don't think that's good.

So yea I think many of these tech companies are going to have to be broken up. Amazon's product division, internet infrastructure division, and e-commerce probably need to be separate companies. I think Elizabeth Warren has been the most realistic on what should happen in this area.
Agree that Warren is on the right side of this argument.

I'll go a little bit further in concerns I have about oligarchies that are potentially emerging in america: banking. Right now, Visa and Mastercard are basically involved in every electronic transaction made in the US. What happens if they decide they don't think people with a certain view should be able to use their service? We are already moving towards a cashless society, so a time will come that they are basically your only access to trade. That's a little scary to think about.
 
If 2 companies controlled 98% of the access to cakes, it would be comparable. As it stands, that's how much Amazon and Google control. As we saw this weekend, they can be every bit as monopolistic as standard oil was.

I agree with you that this isnt a free speech issue and wish people would knock off that rhetoric.
If you want to talk about the monopolies that are Amazon and Google, I'm right there with you.

I also agree with you that whining about this being a 'First Amendment Free Speech" issue is BS.
 
I don’t think the writer’s of the 1st amendment had the forethought to imagine a corporation that was large enough to suppress speech in the way that Apple, Google, Twitter, etc are able to(that’s right, I will dangle that preposition right there). So it seems that the spirit of the amendment is still violated by a group that is able to shutdown ideas of one faction in favor of another and in the present case it is in favor of the incoming administration and its ideology. That’s still very dangerous and in contrast to the rights declared in the Declaration of Independence.

Their speech is not being suppressed. They can take to the streets and spew it however they want, they can write letters, pick up a telephone and speak it, text it, etc. They’ll be publicly shamed, but the government won’t stop them if done peacefully.

They just don’t have the open ended megaphone to reach 100,000s of ppl at once anymore because private businesses recognize it’s bad for business to have this around. Polite society at work.
 
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Agree that Warren is on the right side of this argument.

I'll go a little bit further in concerns I have about oligarchies that are potentially emerging in america: banking. Right now, Visa and Mastercard are basically involved in every electronic transaction made in the US. What happens if they decide they don't think people with a certain view should be able to use their service? We are already moving towards a cashless society, so a time will come that they are basically your only access to trade. That's a little scary to think about.
What is stopping Parler from buying servers, writing code, and setting up their own domain like countless other companies have done in the past without using Google and Amazon's back-end and toolset?

The correct answer is: they are dumb, and don't have the financial backing.
 
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Agree that Warren is on the right side of this argument.

I'll go a little bit further in concerns I have about oligarchies that are potentially emerging in america: banking. Right now, Visa and Mastercard are basically involved in every electronic transaction made in the US. What happens if they decide they don't think people with a certain view should be able to use their service? We are already moving towards a cashless society, so a time will come that they are basically your only access to trade. That's a little scary to think about.

The word you are looking for is "oligopolies," Copernicus.
 
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What is stopping Parler from buying servers, writing code, and setting up their own domain like countless other companies have done in the past without using Google and Amazon's back-end and toolset?

The correct answer is: they are dumb, and don't have the financial backing.

Short answer...nothing. I’m sure they can find an overseas web host like 8kun. But the immediate access to and ease of downloads from existing customer bases is gone. So it’s a lot of time, effort, and money in which they may never reach the same amount of ppl again.
 
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Agree that Warren is on the right side of this argument.

I'll go a little bit further in concerns I have about oligarchies that are potentially emerging in america: banking. Right now, Visa and Mastercard are basically involved in every electronic transaction made in the US. What happens if they decide they don't think people with a certain view should be able to use their service? We are already moving towards a cashless society, so a time will come that they are basically your only access to trade. That's a little scary to think about.

This is true in many industries, and progressives have been screaming about it for years upon years. We always get called "socialists" when we bring up oligopolies, and we're always told to let the free-market work it out.

Republicans suddenly wanting to stop corporate collusion is hysterical. They created the system that allows it to happen continuously!!
 
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What is stopping Parler from buying servers, writing code, and setting up their own domain like countless other companies have done in the past without using Google and Amazon's back-end and toolset?

The correct answer is: they are dumb, and don't have the financial backing.
Not exactly true. Amazon and Google control traffic. Even if they set up their servers, access could be choked or restricted altogether. They basically own access to the internet.
 
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Short answer...nothing. I’m sure they can find an overseas web host like 8kun. But the immediate access to and ease of downloads from existing customer bases is gone. So it’s a lot of time, effort, and money in which they may never reach the same amount of ppl again.
Exactly. Amazon and Google provide an infrastructure. It is an infrastructure that many companies can build on their own, but using pre-made infrastructure with pre-built APIs makes it much, much, easier. Nobody is taking away Parler's freedom of speech, they are just making it harder for Parler to use that freedom of speech because they will have to put in the work and investment to do it themselves.
 
Not exactly true. Amazon and Google control traffic. Even if they set up their servers, access could be choked or restricted altogether. They basically own access to the internet.

Not exactly true either. If this was the case 8kun and the dailystormer would have been stamped out years ago. They could probably find overseas web hosting pretty easily.

The problem is app downloads are what they want and they won’t get easy access to that again or cloud storage and computing.
 
Not exactly true. Amazon and Google control traffic. Even if they set up their servers, access could be choked or restricted altogether. They basically own access to the internet.

I don't understand what you mean. Amazon and Google do not control traffic on the internet. They control a very well-built infrastructure that many, many, people use. There are alternatives.
 
Agree that Warren is on the right side of this argument.

I'll go a little bit further in concerns I have about oligarchies that are potentially emerging in america: banking. Right now, Visa and Mastercard are basically involved in every electronic transaction made in the US. What happens if they decide they don't think people with a certain view should be able to use their service? We are already moving towards a cashless society, so a time will come that they are basically your only access to trade. That's a little scary to think about.

Payment processors too.. that's a big one. I think there was some issues on Patreon due to that.
 
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