Can a white man get a fair trial in America today?

[Crazyhole]

With everything we've seen over the last few years, can a juror truly be totally unbiased and cast their vote without fear of backlash? We all know that if Chauvin is acquitted there will be more rioting and possibly put more lives at risk. The woman cop in Brooklyn center is another immediate example of this.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is how can a person, particularly a white cop, get a fair trial when the jury knows that the alternative to a guilty finding will lead to a lot of damage to people that aren't associated with the crime in any way?

How do we back our way out of this situation? If a person goes into a trial knowing that it really can't be fair then why wouldn't they flee the country and claim asylum somewhere else? It seems like that might be the best course of action for anybody charged with a crime at this point.

 

[DaShuckster]

Apparently this new thread rant means Crazyhole doesn't think Chauvin is getting a fair trial.

By golly, we need to go back to the days when a white cop's account of an arrest gone awry was the closest thing there is to gospel.

Damn cellphone videos!

 

[Crazyhole]

Apparently this new thread rant means Crazyhole doesn't think Chauvin is getting a fair trial.

By golly, we need to go back to the days when a white cops account of things was the closest thing to gospel.

Damn cellphone video!

Ugh. No, the thought does come from what is going on in Minneapolis right now, but that isn't the totality of my question. Regardless of race, if a jury goes into a trial knowing that they can potentially come out with a verdict that will lead to things like riots or murders, can that jury really be impartial? Right now it's about white police officers, particularly white male police officers. It could be the case for any demographic and was for a while during Jim Crow for black men.

 

[sk8knight]

Honestly, this is why o thought they’d go bench trial.

 

[Crazyhole]

Honestly, this is why o thought they’d go bench trial.

They should have moved the trial.

 

[UCFKNIGHTS88]

Honestly, this is why o thought they’d go bench trial.

No way - would rather take my chances of getting one dummy out of 12 vs a highly educated/skilled lawyer/judge
Thought they should have done what they did with Casey Anthony and get a jury from outside but not sure if there is an area in Minnesota with similar demographics to Minneapolis. They would have got flack for having 10 whiteys on the jury and rightfully so.

 

[sk8knight]

No way - would rather take my chances of getting one dummy out of 12 vs a highly educated/skilled lawyer/judge
Thought they should have done what they did with Casey Anthony and get a jury from outside but not sure if there is an area in Minnesota with similar demographics to Minneapolis. They would have got flack for having 10 whiteys on the jury and rightfully so.

I get it. But the judge is sworn to rule on the law. Juries rule on whatever the hell they want. Sometimes on external factors like personal safety.

 

[Crazyhole]

I get it. But the judge is sworn to rule on the law. Juries rule on whatever the hell they want. Sometimes on external factors like personal safety.

And a single hold-out on a jury can be pressured into just giving in. I did it one time, and maintain that I was correct but everybody else just wanted to get out of there. In my defense, it was 1 charge out of 3 and the other 2 were pretty obvious that the dude was guilty of so giving in wasn't that big of a deal. If I were in that same position today I'd probably stand my ground and just tell them that we can convict on the other 2 charges but not this one, and if they don't like it then kiss my ass.

 

[OLearyLastCall]

In the trial thread, you guys are all posting how the prosecutors haven't proven their case, but now this thread is asking if any white man can receive a fair trial?

Did something major happen in the trial yesterday for this shift? I haven't been paying attention.

 

[Nautiknight]

Yes, yes a white dude can get a fair trial especially if they are popular in the media and meet and check all the woke boxes . lol.

The problem today is our media . it's the fact all of us pretty much carry a video recording device and at any moment any and all bad behavior by authorities in public can be captured. So, the media runs with stuff for their narrative and agenda and the media whips the frenzy up. If we had no video of Georgie Floyd being arrested does his arrest lead to the violence we saw last summer? I mean peaceful protests , I am sorry.

I blame our media for the decline of our nation . they pick sides ,,drive narratives,ignore truth,facts, evidence and deny science when it suits their means . They embrace it for the same reason .

I have served on a few juries and guess what ? I trust people to be able to take evidence on both sides and figure out the best course of action. based on it and based on this. Unlike the left , I think most people are not racist ,bigots or mean. I think most people of all races want to do good while on this earth and treat others with kindness and respect . I think most people put into the position of judging another in a court of law try to put their best foot forward. yes some people are idiots and some have huge biases and yes some are racist but most are decent people wanting to do right.

Can you still get a fair trial ? I am saying yes. is it perfect ? nope.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

How many trials in any given year do you really watch or even give two shits about? One, maybe, at the most?

Saying a white man can't get a fair trial in this country with recency bias/cherry picking data in mind is no different than saying cops shoot every black man that they try to arrest.

 

[chemmie]

Maybe if cops would stop murdering unarmed black people, you wouldn't have to ask this question.

 

[fried-chicken]

OP has a good point. White men do have it rough especially in the criminal justice system.

 

[sk8knight]

White man, black man, woman, trans, whatever. The better question, and the one that I suspect you’re really asking, is can a person in this society get a fair trial if the media has decided they’re guilty?

 

[Gatorbull357]

With everything we've seen over the last few years, can a juror truly be totally unbiased and cast their vote without fear of backlash? We all know that if Chauvin is acquitted there will be more rioting and possibly put more lives at risk. The woman cop in Brooklyn center is another immediate example of this.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is how can a person, particularly a white cop, get a fair trial when the jury knows that the alternative to a guilty finding will lead to a lot of damage to people that aren't associated with the crime in any way?

How do we back our way out of this situation? If a person goes into a trial knowing that it really can't be fair then why wouldn't they flee the country and claim asylum somewhere else? It seems like that might be the best course of action for anybody charged with a crime at this point.

Most Jurors are usually white so yes. And White cops have a 3% conviction rate so what issues are they facing? lol The poor oppressed white man...poor babies 😂😂😂

 

[chemmie]

Most Jurors are usually white so yes. And White cops have a 3% conviction rate so what issues are they facing? lol The poor oppressed white man...poor babies 😂😂😂

This forum is full of oppressed white men. You just don't know how hard it is to live their life.

 

[Gatorbull357]

This forum is full of oppressed white men. You just don't know how hard it is to live their life.

I cant lie, I come to this board for laughs, but sometimes its just sad. All I can do is pull out my 🎻🎻🎻 for these guys. I think Crazyhole is just a troll. Dont think he believes half of what he says.

 

[DaShuckster]

If we had no video of Georgie Floyd being arrested does his arrest lead to the violence we saw last summer?

Yeah, DAMN THE MEDIA for stirring things up in Minneapolis!

Back in the 'Good Ole Days,' the Floyd death would have been just another Black man who died while resisting arrest and that would have been that, right Nauti?

 

[Crazyhole]

White man, black man, woman, trans, whatever. The better question, and the one that I suspect you’re really asking, is can a person in this society get a fair trial if the media has decided they’re guilty?

That's part of it. I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the jurors. They went through hell last summer and now it's happening again. They have to know that if they come back with an acquittal then their city is going to blow up yet again, putting everybody at risk. How can that not come into play with how they rule?

I was actually pretty relieved yesterday that the prosecution had a good day. Personally, if I look at this just from the facts I say Chauvin should be acquitted. But my daughters live in Minneapolis and I'm nervous for them if that happens so I hope he is found guilty.

 

[Nautiknight]

Maybe if cops would stop murdering unarmed black people, you wouldn't have to ask this question.

The issue isn't cops murdering unarmed black people. Fact is more white people die at the hands of bad cops than black people . Look, I am skeptical of cops, the Government and people in power .. I don't hate cops nor do I fully trust them. For that reason when I am stopped I do exactly as I am told. I would rather have my civil rights violated and if need be take them to court than to be dead.

Guess what as much as it sucks saying this , if you are black or white and you don't do as they ask or command during an arrest then you are asking for trouble. I would dare say if every person shot by a cop just got on the ground , didn't run ,didn't resist arrest, fight back or draw a weapon of any kind , if they just did what the cop was telling them to do ,then they would all be alive today , or at the very least not be killed by a cop. It's just that simple . It's not racist or anything . When you encounter law enforcement do as you are told. period . and you will be alive . it's not rocket surgery.

Yeah, DAMN THE MEDIA for stirring things up in Minneapolis!

Back in the 'Good Ole Days,' the Floyd death would have been just another Black man who died while resisting arrest and that would have been that, right Nauti?

Nope. You mistake me for someone I am not. lol. The Bill of Rights matters Shook..It matters to me and you and every person in this country. What are those rights if they are not respected by the government and the cops? They are just ideas on a piece of paper. Our rights extend to all of us whether we are guilty or innocent,rich or poor black or white. It pisses me off how that guy was treated.

I don't trust police to do the right thing always. I also know this I can't out run a 9mm round either. So, I comply . The cops have a crappy duty cleaning up crime . I have a lot of respect for instance for wildlife officers . Those folks put their lives on the line for things like lobsters and deer . Poachers kill wildlife officers. However, when I am on my boat in the Keys I hate it when they pull me over . I hate it. I am doing nothing wrong and my boat is well maintained and safe. Leave me the F alone .

I said it once and will say it again . I don't trust cops . I get why people flee ,they don't trust them either. But do you really think if a bad cop won't follow the Constitutional rights then what stops them from abuse or killing you? If you resist arrest or run your chances escalate that you will not make it out alive . Better to be alive in jail to fight the tyranny in a court than to be carried by six in a box .

 

[Knight In TN]

That's part of it. I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the jurors. They went through hell last summer and now it's happening again. They have to know that if they come back with an acquittal then their city is going to blow up yet again, putting everybody at risk. How can that not come into play with how they rule?

I was actually pretty relieved yesterday that the prosecution had a good day. Personally, if I look at this just from the facts I say Chauvin should be acquitted. But my daughters live in Minneapolis and I'm nervous for them if that happens so I hope he is found guilty.

It brings into question a very disturbing idea:

Do we essentially start sacrificing people to the mob in order to satisfy their craving for so-called justice? If Chauvin is acquitted, people who did not watch a second of the trial or read a single word about it will set fire to property, loot businesses, and destroy things in anger.

Nobody wants those things to happen, and the jury is well aware of the danger that they and their families will be in personally if they don’t convict Chauvin. That’s an unworkable position for our justice system to be in.

 

[DaShuckster]

The issue isn't cops murdering unarmed black people.

I'm thinking there are quite a few Black Americans who would disagree with you.

Guess what as much as it sucks saying this , if you are black or white and you don't do as they ask or command during an arrest then you are asking for trouble.

That post reeks of a White guy who has no clue what its like to live in this country without the White Privilege he takes for granted.

Look at the cellphone video of the traffic stop of the Black Army officer. That guy did everything a Black man is told to do to avoid getting 'accidentally' shot and he STILL was resisting arrest in the eyes of the cops. One can only imagine how that arrest would have gone down if there had been no videos of the incident.

So PLEASE spare us your "Geez, if these people would just do as they're asked" there's no problem." Racism within the police force is the problem.

 

[Knight In TN]

I'm thinking there are quite a few Black Americans who would disagree with you.

That post reeks of a White guy who has no clue what its like to live in this country without the White Privilege he takes for granted.

Look at the cellphone video of the traffic stop of the Black Army officer. That guy did everything a Black man is told to do to avoid getting 'accidentally' shot and he STILL was resisting arrest in the eyes of the cops. One can only imagine how that arrest would have gone down if there had been no videos of the incident.

So PLEASE spare us your "Geez, if these people would just do as they're asked" there's no problem." Racism within the police force is the problem.

You are completely convinced of something and nothing and no one can change your mind. Good luck.

 

[DaShuckster]

You are completely convinced of something and nothing and no one can change your mind. Good luck.

One can only aspire to be as open-minded as you.

 

[Knight In TN]

One can only aspire to be as open-minded as you.

I’ve been critical of cops plenty.

 

[Nautiknight]

I'm thinking there are quite a few Black Americans who would disagree with you.

That post reeks of a White guy who has no clue what its like to live in this country without the White Privilege he takes for granted.

Look at the cellphone video of the traffic stop of the Black Army officer. That guy did everything a Black man is told to do to avoid getting 'accidentally' shot and he STILL was resisting arrest in the eyes of the cops. One can only imagine how that arrest would have gone down if there had been no videos of the incident.

So PLEASE spare us your "Geez, if these people would just do as they're asked" there's no problem." Racism within the police force is the problem.

I am sorry you're lost. I never said it doesn't exist. You can only control you ,nobody else . You do what you have to do to not get killed. I don't trust cops . What more can I say. I am a white guy because my parents were white and my DNA says I am white. I can't change it nor am I am going to apologize for my genetics . I was born this way and I am thankful I had good parents . I am thankful my dad cared. I am thankful he taught me to respect authority and the law. What happen to the black Army officer was wrong. it was absolutely wrong and that cop ,not me or you , violated his rights. I am not responsible for the cops bad behavior. That's on him and his department. I make no excuse for bad policing . They need to go. I want a police force that recognizes they are responsible for making sure all of our rights are protected even when we are drug dealers or innocent Army Officers.

 

[Knight In TN]

I am sorry you're lost. I never said it doesn't exist. You can only control you ,nobody else . You do what you have to do to not get killed. I don't trust cops . What more can I say. I am a white guy because my parents were white and my DNA says I am white. I can't change it nor am I am going to apologize for my genetics . I was born this way and I am thankful I had good parents . I am thankful my dad cared. I am thankful he taught me to respect authority and the law. What happen to the black Army officer was wrong. it was absolutely wrong and that cop ,not me or you , violated his rights. I am not responsible for the cops bad behavior. That's on him and his department. I make no excuse for bad policing . They need to go. I want a police force that recognizes they are responsible for making sure all of our rights are protected even when we are drug dealers or innocent Army Officers.

There are people in this country who are absolutely terrified of black people realizing they can think for themselves and determine the course of their own lives. They tell them they have problems that only other people can fix. “Only white people can stop oppressing you. Only police can stop shooting you. Only Democrats can help you.”

The message of “take control of your life, prioritize your education, work hard, stay out of trouble, don’t have kids before you get married, and you’ll land solidly in the middle class” isn’t something they’re interested in telling black people. It strips away the opportunity for the Democrat party to be the knight in shining armor for black people.

 

[chemmie]

Guess what as much as it sucks saying this , if you are black or white and you don't do as they ask or command during an arrest then you are asking for trouble. I would dare say if every person shot by a cop just got on the ground , didn't run ,didn't resist arrest, fight back or draw a weapon of any kind , if they just did what the cop was telling them to do ,then they would all be alive today , or at the very least not be killed by a cop. It's just that simple . It's not racist or anything . When you encounter law enforcement do as you are told. period . and you will be alive . it's not rocket surgery.

"If women wouldn't wear skimpy clothes, they wouldn't get raped."

 

[DaShuckster]

Guess what as much as it sucks saying this , if you are black or white and you don't do as they ask or command during an arrest then you are asking for trouble. I would dare say if every person shot by a cop just got on the ground , didn't run ,didn't resist arrest, fight back or draw a weapon of any kind , if they just did what the cop was telling them to do ,then they would all be alive today , or at the very least not be killed by a cop. It's just that simple . It's not racist or anything . When you encounter law enforcement do as you are told. period . and you will be alive . it's not rocket surgery.

Try selling your argument to the army officer in this video.

 

[sk8knight]

Bad cops doing bad things just aren’t that common. When it happens, it’s blown up all over the media and that makes us feel like it happens all the time. Now, cops are human and so are you. A cop can be rude on a bad day. A cop can be stopping you for speeding coming directly off of a traffic homicide investigation where excessive speed caused an SUV to flip spilling all of the family out onto a major highway where another car then ran over one of the children and kept going (real story my wife experienced). Now here you come speeding down the road and you project an attitude of annoyance. You’re likely to get some rudeness right back at ya.

Fact is that the tone of the overwhelming majority of interactions is determined by the civilian. That why we’ve seen so many videos of councilman so-and-so who’s civil rights were violated by the evil racist cops... right up until the dash or body cam footage is released and we see how professional and courteous the police actually where to the individual. Unfortunately, these just get ignored in the current ACAB/BLM hysteria. It’s not a fair discussion at all and it’s tearing society apart.

 

[chemmie]

Bad cops doing bad things just aren’t that common. When it happens, it’s blown up all over the media and that makes us feel like it happens all the time. Now, cops are human and so are you. A cop can be rude on a bad day. A cop can be stopping you for speeding coming directly off of a traffic homicide investigation where excessive speed caused an SUV to flip spilling all of the family out onto a major highway where another car then ran over one of the children and kept going (real story my wife experienced). Now here you come speeding down the road and you project an attitude of annoyance. You’re likely to get some rudeness right back at ya.

Fact is that the tone of the overwhelming majority of interactions is determined by the civilian. That why we’ve seen so many videos of councilman so-and-so who’s civil rights were violated by the evil racist cops... right up until the dash or body cam footage is released and we see how professional and courteous the police actually where to the individual. Unfortunately, these just get ignored in the current ACAB/BLM hysteria. It’s not a fair discussion at all and it’s tearing society apart.

Their job is to NOT have bad days. Their job is to NOT do bad things. Forgive us for expecting them to NOT act like assholes.

 

[sk8knight]

Their job is to NOT have bad days. Their job is to NOT do bad things. Forgive us for expecting them to NOT act like assholes.

You can't even go 3 posts without meeting that standard.

There is no expectation for police officers to be perfect robots. You wouldn't want that standard to apply to you and neither does anyone else. What we don't want them to do is criminal acts and we want them held accountable when they do.

 

[DaShuckster]

There is no expectation for police officers to be perfect robots. You wouldn't want that standard to apply to you and neither does anyone else.

We expect them to act like professionals. Is that too much to expect?

What we don't want them to do is criminal acts and we want them held accountable when they do.

Have you ever held a bad cop accountable?

 

[fabknight]

We expect them to act like professionals. Is that too much to expect?

Have you ever held a bad cop accountable?

It isn't too much to expect but they are human as sk8 said. Turn the question around. Is it reasonable to expect a human to have a happy professional demeanor ALL the time? The answer is no.

 

[chemmie]

You can't even go 3 posts without meeting that standard.

There is no expectation for police officers to be perfect robots. You wouldn't want that standard to apply to you and neither does anyone else. What we don't want them to do is criminal acts and we want them held accountable when they do.

Yes, there is an expectation that cops will not be corrupt, that they will be calm and composed, that they won't shoot unarmed people, that they won't put their knees on a person's neck until they die, that they won't beat somebody senseless, that they won't throw a teenage female to the ground, that they won't arrest a 5 year old, that they won't try to cover it all up to protect their buddies...

I expect cops to be better. You should, too.

 

[sk8knight]

We expect them to act like professionals. Is that too much to expect?

Have you ever held a bad cop accountable?

Yes, in your other thread about the Army officer.

As for your first, we certainly don't pay them like professionals. In most places, we don't support them like professionals. Certainly, society and media isn't respecting the profession right now. Yet we require them to do things very few other professions require and swear them to perform those duties under punishment of law if they don't. The only backup they have is that they are following the procedural manuals and training of the department for which they're working. Of course, leadership is political and it's en vogue right now to thrown your officer under the bus the moment anything shines negatively on you. So they really are doing all those things that you won't do yourself while you hide behind your living room curtains and your cell phone and assuming all of the personal risk of anything that goes wrong, their fault or not, that can even remotely be used by some politician or AG or Chief for personal gain.

The really sad thing is that every officer that I know is a professional on duty. Some are more aggressive and some are more passive and some are more emotional and some are more scholarly. But every one of them understands their job far better than any of us.

 

[DaShuckster]

As for your first, we certainly don't pay them like professionals. In most places, we don't support them like professionals. Certainly, society and media isn't respecting the profession right now.

You could say the same thing about school teachers. But difference is that somebody isn't dead when they make a mistake.

The really sad thing is that every officer that I know is a professional on duty. Some are more aggressive and some are more passive and some are more emotional and some are more scholarly. But every one of them understands their job far better than any of us.

I would expect a professional to understand their job far better than any of us. But a true professional doesn't allow his emotions or aggressive demeanor to get the best of him. Police officers should be all about deescalating situations, not ramping up the emotions. The examples @chemmie outlines above highlight an officer losing control of his emotions.

 

[Crazyhole]

Can somebody explain to me why it's unacceptable for black people to be afraid of a traffic stop, but its not ok for me to be afraid for my white daughters getting caught in the middle of a riot led by black people? One works at a Jimmy Johns that could easily be looted or set on fire by angry black people that want revenge against white people.

 

[DaShuckster]

Can somebody explain to me why it's unacceptable for black people to be afraid of a traffic stop, but its not ok for me to be afraid for my white daughters getting caught in the middle of a riot led by black people?

wow.

 

[Crazyhole]

wow.

Exactly.