Coward Pelosi may throw tent on her own circus, not send impeachment to Senate

[Crazyhole]

I'm not sure that's on the House though. There were no specific and narrow claims of immunity or privilege to litigate here. The WH argued that the lowest level employees were off limits completely. If you pierced that broad shield, then you'd have to deal with the narrow and specific claims that would follow.

Regardless, imagine that SCOTUS fully rules in favor of the WH here - essentially allowing the WH to claim total immunity from congressional subpoenas. The House could STILL decide that wielding that power as done in this case is worthy of impeachment. In other words, the House decides the pain threshold regardless of where SCOTUS decides legality.

Remember, the courts don't like to settle these kinds of disputes. It's not an irrational position for the court to ultimately determine that the power of POTUS to Obstruct Congress is precisely the leash that Congress decides to give the Executive. This is actually a rational position to take in order to balance powers.

In other words, a proper balancing might be for the WH to provide the bare minimum level of cooperation it needs to avoid the obstruction article. The Court is not going to decide where that line is, even it makes technical rulings on what privileges apply to whom and when. From that perspective, Congress is setting precedent here that an administration wide claim of total immunity is Obstruction of Congress and impeachable, regardless of how courts might rule on narrow and specific claims of immunity/privilage.

I think that's a rational position for congress to take in effort to maintain it's powers. The rational position for the WH would have been to cooperate at the minimum level necessary to avoid the Obstruction article (unless you think your guilty on the primary charge, in which case you might decide obstructing is more rational).

I get your point, but at the same time the way this is working basically shows that while obstruction is an impeachable offense, there is no standard on which to measure it and there are no consequences to doing so. Trump was impeached, well whipty frigging doo. What did it matter? Congress has already virtually neutered itself over the last several decades and now when they decide to make a stand, it didnt amount to anything. The president may as well be a king, because they ceded their power of how to spend money, whether we attack other countries, and now they've undermined their ability to hold him in check. What is there to keep the next president or any of their successors from doing whatever the heck they want?

We have a supreme leader with a bunch of monkeys at his feet fighting over who gets to be the head monkey.

 

[Boosted87]

It’s relevant because this whole exercise has been about public opinion. It’s the double standard. It’s Hillary getting to set the terms of her interview with the FBI during her investigation but then screaming that Trump doesn’t get to request a fair process. Then whining about the Senate because the Senate might play by the same rules as the House. The more the leftists go after Trump on flimsy evidence of something that most Americans aren’t even sure that they have an issue with, the more Trump supporters they’re creating and the more ardent the current Trump supporters become. Look at UCFBS, he by no means likes or agrees with Trump. But he is defending Trump at the moment because the ruling elites in Washington have exposed themselves in trying to remove him.

Polling has this at like 70/30 that was Trump did was wrong, though impeachment and removal is down around 50/50, which is remarkably high on its own.

Hillary set the terms of her interview - OK - pretty sure Trump set the terms of his interview with Mueller. He's also set the terms of "total immunity" from congress for the entire administration. This is just whatboutism and it's stupid. It's possible that both Hillary and Trump did bad things.

You can use UCFBS as a data point, but keep in mind that I'm also a data point. I've voted R every cycle (Bush twice, McCain, Romney) until 2016. Voting for Hillary was the most politically painful thing I've ever done. My wife was a loyal R voter as well until 2016. Both of my inlaws had voted R forever - one voted for Hillary and one third party. If it's Bernie vs Trump they'll both probably vote third party. It's well documented what's happening to voter trends among demographics, and the Republican Party is bleeding in the suburbs.

If you want some fun - play around with this tool from the Economist. A carbon copy of me with no college education living in a rural area is like 69% Republican. But if I have a post-graduate degree in living in an urban area, there's a 73% chance I lean Democrat.

 

[sk8knight]

Polling has this at like 70/30 that was Trump did was wrong, though impeachment and removal is down around 50/50, which is remarkably high on its own.

Hillary set the terms of her interview - OK - pretty sure Trump set the terms of his interview with Mueller. He's also set the terms of "total immunity" from congress for the entire administration. This is just whatboutism and it's stupid. It's possible that both Hillary and Trump did bad things.

You can use UCFBS as a data point, but keep in mind that I'm also a data point. I've voted R every cycle (Bush twice, McCain, Romney) until 2016. Voting for Hillary was the most politically painful thing I've ever done. My wife was a loyal R voter as well until 2016. Both of my inlaws had voted R forever - one voted for Hillary and one third party. If it's Bernie vs Trump they'll both probably vote third party. It's well documented what's happening to voter trends among demographics, and the Republican Party is bleeding in the suburbs.

If you want some fun - play around with this tool from the Economist. A carbon copy of me with no college education living in a rural area is like 69% Republican. But if I have a post-graduate degree in living in an urban area, there's a 73% chance I lean Democrat.

That makes you a Never Trumper and not the same data point as UCFBS who was against Trump in 2016 but has changed his stance due to the exposure of the actual game. What you and your family are doing is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face. The most important facets of the office right now are the stocking of the federal judiciary and the bureaucratic positions. We’ve seen quite clearly how a single federal judge in random district x can subvert the Executive’s ability to make Constitutionally-granted policies. We’ve also seen how bureaucrats can lie and contort and leak information to subvert a Presidency and send the nation into a near-cold civil war. So, in your world as a Republican voter, you’re perfectly fine with another Democrat President setting the playing field because you think Trump is a boorish ass. That’s really too bad.

 

[UCFBS]

That makes you a Never Trumper and not the same data point as UCFBS who was against Trump in 2016 but has changed his stance due to the exposure of the actual game.

What scares me most is that too many Democratic candidates are talking like Trump, in what they'd do. The two parties don't want to reign in the Executive power, or limit the FISA courts, or do so many other things that are being abused.

That's why I really cannot 'get on-board' for removing Trump any more than I can 'get on-board' for voting Trump. How much is 'getting exposed' when it comes to the DC Swamp and Career Politicians is actually 'nice to see,' even if it's going to result in no changes.

Frankly, the economy will eventually bottom-out. What's left after that is whether I have the right to capture my own water, have my own solar power, and the right to defend myself. I want an end to control of my life and those who are productive in this country.

I can find 'like' in just about any POTUS, even if 'dislike' is 85%+. Trump gets kudos for ...

• Innovation: Self-Employed/Small Business Focused tax code improvements and the AHP option -- also penalizing companies that borrow to buy back stock, let alone invest overseas
• SCOTUS: Clear Libertarian Justices, very different than the 'Conservatives' on the court (who I disagree with a lot) -- clear 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendment protections
• Foreign Policy: Staying out of a lot of crap, and calling allies out (with caveat**)

Trump gets despise for me for continuing to ...

• Spending: Although Trump isn't as bad as the Socialist candidates, he's still the worst we've seen yet, even more so than Obama now (and Obama was worse than W. -- especially after the 'right the ship')
• 1st Amendment: Lambasting the US Media -- no matter how much they may deserve it at times, he shouldn't say jack -- and what he says scares me sometimes (as did Obama in 2009, plus the later, 2013 disclosures of 2009)
• Foreign Policy: **WTF is with the Saudia-Yemen non-sense? Sell them what they want, but let's pull out of everything! We're a petroleum net exporter for the first time ... ever!!! Let China v. Europe fight over it!

In the end, the US Media has become useless. And that has nothing to do with Trump. In fact, Trump is the symptom of where we were already going.

 

[sk8knight]

What scares me most is that too many Democratic candidates are talking like Trump, in what they'd do. The two parties don't want to reign in the Executive power, or limit the FISA courts, or do so many other things that are being abused.

That's why I really cannot 'get on-board' for removing Trump any more than I can 'get on-board' for voting Trump. How much is 'getting exposed' when it comes to the DC Swamp and Career Politicians is actually 'nice to see,' even if it's going to result in no changes.

Frankly, the economy will eventually bottom-out. What's left after that is whether I have the right to capture my own water, have my own solar power, and the right to defend myself. I want an end to control of my life and those who are productive in this country.

I can find 'like' in just about any POTUS, even if 'dislike' is 85%+. Trump gets kudos for ...

• Innovation: Self-Employed/Small Business Focused tax code improvements and the AHP option -- also penalizing companies that borrow to buy back stock, let alone invest overseas
• SCOTUS: Clear Libertarian Justices, very different than the 'Conservatives' on the court (who I disagree with a lot) -- clear 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendment protections
• Foreign Policy: Staying out of a lot of crap, and calling allies out (with caveat**)

Trump gets despise for me for continuing to ...

• Spending: Although Trump isn't as bad as the Socialist candidates, he's still the worst we've seen yet, even more so than Obama now (and Obama was worse than W. -- especially after the 'right the ship')
• 1st Amendment: Lambasting the US Media -- no matter how much they may deserve it at times, he shouldn't say jack -- and what he says scares me sometimes (as did Obama in 2009, plus the later, 2013 disclosures of 2009)
• Foreign Policy: **WTF is with the Saudia-Yemen non-sense? Sell them what they want, but let's pull out of everything! We're a petroleum net exporter for the first time ... ever!!! Let China v. Europe fight over it!

In the end, the US Media has become useless. And that has nothing to do with Trump. In fact, Trump is the symptom of where we were already going.

On the last point, if it were up to our climate-change-motivated politicians, we wouldn’t be producing any domestic petroleum so it’s probably a very good idea to maintain relationships with producers who won’t arbitrarily destroy their means of production.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Why hasn't this coward sent this can't miss, slam dunk articles of impeachment to the Senate yet?

Surely this wasn't a total partisan, spite filled debacle?

 

[UCFWayne]

Why hasn't this coward sent this can't miss, slam dunk articles of impeachment to the Senate yet?

Surely this wasn't a total partisan, spite filled debacle?

i cant wait for them to give all that power over to cocaine mitch

 

[sk8knight]

Why hasn't this coward sent this can't miss, slam dunk articles of impeachment to the Senate yet?

Surely this wasn't a total partisan, spite filled debacle?

I’m still trying to figure out how Biden gets a free pass on a probable violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act because he is running for President and the President that asked for information about that probable violation from the country where it took place has been impeached by the House.

 

[Boosted87]

That makes you a Never Trumper and not the same data point as UCFBS who was against Trump in 2016 but has changed his stance due to the exposure of the actual game. What you and your family are doing is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face. The most important facets of the office right now are the stocking of the federal judiciary and the bureaucratic positions. We’ve seen quite clearly how a single federal judge in random district x can subvert the Executive’s ability to make Constitutionally-granted policies. We’ve also seen how bureaucrats can lie and contort and leak information to subvert a Presidency and send the nation into a near-cold civil war. So, in your world as a Republican voter, you’re perfectly fine with another Democrat President setting the playing field because you think Trump is a boorish ass. That’s really too bad.

"Boorish ass" makes it sound like I don't like him as a person. That's not the problem. There's nothing personal or emotional about this.

I wasn't a never Trumper. I thought Hillary v Trump were the worst major party nominees of my voting lifetime for sure. But I've always had a big anti-establishment streak so I was kind of excited to see how much of Trump's behavior was an act vs his actual personality. I was hopeful he could shake up DC a bit. I hoped he would pivot - not on policy - but on rhetoric and make an effort to be President for more than just his base.

The difference to me is an ends-justify-the-means kind of mentality. If you're a true believer, and liberals are some evil entity trying to destroy America - then of course you're willing to swallow behavior you otherwise wouldn't because you see the threat as so grave.

You know he irony? I do see Trump as a threat. But I also have faith in our institutions to manage and cope with this kind of threat. The only way a threat like this can possibly succeed? Tear down the institutions that stand in the way. Imagine for a second that the Left elects a Chavez like character hellbent on usurping power permanently. What sort of things would he need to happen? What institutional framework would have to be undermined or crumble for that to happen?

Well, a major line of defense is the bureaucracy. Lots of entrenched power that knows how to get things done. Regular, hard working Americans who have been around for decades. The bureaucracy could - on it's own - make life miserable for a wannabe tyrant. Red tape is a powerful thing to simply slow down an effort to usurp power while the press and public catch up. So it will be critical to convince your base that the bureaucracy is out to get you. They can't be trusted.

Of course, convincing your base that the free press is the "enemy of the people" will also be important. Combined with an alternative set of news sources that carry your water, and you can completely isolate your base from reality, and deliver a soap-opera like narrative of how evil the opposition - or anyone that dares to second guess you - actually is.

If you do a horrible thing and someone leaks it to the media, you have already conditioned your base that you can't trust the fake news and deep state leakers who are out to get you. Your base is virtually inoculated from balanced information while they are convinced everyone else is falling for the "fake news."

And also realize this - a great predictor of Trump voters in 2016 was how they scored on a scale of authoritarianism. This trend could easily go the other way and support a character like Chavez on the left. But all the damage will carry over - the distrust of the press - distrust of the "deep state" - undermining of the judiciary. That damage won't magically heal post Trump. It will remain, waiting to be exploited by the next demagogue.

 

[sk8knight]

"Boorish ass" makes it sound like I don't like him as a person. That's not the problem. There's nothing personal or emotional about this.

I wasn't a never Trumper. I thought Hillary v Trump were the worst major party nominees of my voting lifetime for sure. But I've always had a big anti-establishment streak so I was kind of excited to see how much of Trump's behavior was an act vs his actual personality. I was hopeful he could shake up DC a bit. I hoped he would pivot - not on policy - but on rhetoric and make an effort to be President for more than just his base.

The difference to me is an ends-justify-the-means kind of mentality. If you're a true believer, and liberals are some evil entity trying to destroy America - then of course you're willing to swallow behavior you otherwise wouldn't because you see the threat as so grave.

You know he irony? I do see Trump as a threat. But I also have faith in our institutions to manage and cope with this kind of threat. The only way a threat like this can possibly succeed? Tear down the institutions that stand in the way. Imagine for a second that the Left elects a Chavez like character hellbent on usurping power permanently. What sort of things would he need to happen? What institutional framework would have to be undermined or crumble for that to happen?

Well, a major line of defense is the bureaucracy. Lots of entrenched power that knows how to get things done. Regular, hard working Americans who have been around for decades. The bureaucracy could - on it's own - make life miserable for a wannabe tyrant. Red tape is a powerful thing to simply slow down an effort to usurp power while the press and public catch up. So it will be critical to convince your base that the bureaucracy is out to get you. They can't be trusted.

Of course, convincing your base that the free press is the "enemy of the people" will also be important. Combined with an alternative set of news sources that carry your water, and you can completely isolate your base from reality, and deliver a soap-opera like narrative of how evil the opposition - or anyone that dares to second guess you - actually is.

If you do a horrible thing and someone leaks it to the media, you have already conditioned your base that you can't trust the fake news and deep state leakers who are out to get you. Your base is virtually inoculated from balanced information while they are convinced everyone else is falling for the "fake news."

And also realize this - a great predictor of Trump voters in 2016 was how they scored on a scale of authoritarianism. This trend could easily go the other way and support a character like Chavez on the left. But all the damage will carry over - the distrust of the press - distrust of the "deep state" - undermining of the judiciary. That damage won't magically heal post Trump. It will remain, waiting to be exploited by the next demagogue.

If I’m reading you correctly, then you're buying into the Trump will be the end of democracy fearmongering. The thing is, Trump has respected the institutions of government. When federal justices have ruled against his executive orders, he didn’t instruct the government to ignore them. He followed the rulings and rewrote the orders. Repeatedly. He has yet to tell Congress that he’s going to fund something or create law by executive order since he can’t get it through Congress. When the Ukraine call was questioned, he released what they had for a transcript.

You can say making the media the enemy is a ploy but I say it’s a reaction. The media that was so supportive of Obama has been nothing but antagonistic towards Trump since he became the front runner for the Republican nomination. A day didn’t go by where they didn’t run stories and opinions about how Trump was a Russian agent and he criminally collided with Putin to steal the election. For years this went on. They took every negative position against him they could and made them up when they couldn’t. They admittedly and willfully set up Trump as an enemy of freedom, Democracy, and Americans and have demagogues anyone who will not condemn Trump as crazy, stupid, or evil. And when Russia was over, rather than admit they were wrong and mend their ways, they moved on to something else. So it’s easy to see why Trump rails against the media that chose to make him their enemy.

The question is, why are you so inline with the media’s position given all of their malfeasance?

 

[DaShuckster]

I’m still trying to figure out how Biden gets a free pass on a probable violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act because he is running for President and the President that asked for information about that probable violation from the country where it took place has been impeached by the House.

When you get your information from Fox News, you can actually believe something this outrageously stupid.

 

[UCFWayne]

If I’m reading you correctly, then you're buying into the Trump will be the end of democracy fearmongering. The thing is, Trump has respected the institutions of government. When federal justices have ruled against his executive orders, he didn’t instruct the government to ignore them. He followed the rulings and rewrote the orders. Repeatedly. He has yet to tell Congress that he’s going to fund something or create law by executive order since he can’t get it through Congress. When the Ukraine call was questioned, he released what they had for a transcript.

You can say making the media the enemy is a ploy but I say it’s a reaction. The media that was so supportive of Obama has been nothing but antagonistic towards Trump since he became the front runner for the Republican nomination. A day didn’t go by where they didn’t run stories and opinions about how Trump was a Russian agent and he criminally collided with Putin to steal the election. For years this went on. They took every negative position against him they could and made them up when they couldn’t. They admittedly and willfully set up Trump as an enemy of freedom, Democracy, and Americans and have demagogues anyone who will not condemn Trump as crazy, stupid, or evil. And when Russia was over, rather than admit they were wrong and mend their ways, they moved on to something else. So it’s easy to see why Trump rails against the media that chose to make him their enemy.

The question is, why are you so inline with the media’s position given all of their malfeasance?

orange man bad