Do you still believe in Democracy?

[DaShuckster]

One of the greatest things about our country has been the peaceful transfer of power. Yesterday Trump refused to answer the question of stepping down if he loses by saying that the only way he'll lose is if there is voter fraud. IMHO, this is a five-alarm fire regarding American democracy. Throughout our history -- even in 2000 -- we have had a peaceful transfer of power. If Trump loses, we will likely be faced with the most serious challenge to our bedrock values in our history.

Trump has already shown what he believes and how he will act, so the question will be: do we all still believe in democracy?

 

[Crazyhole]

One of the greatest things about our country has been the peaceful transfer of power. Yesterday Trump refused to answer the question of stepping down if he loses by saying that the only way he'll lose is if there is voter fraud. IMHO, this is a five-alarm fire regarding American democracy. Throughout our history -- even in 2000 -- we have had a peaceful transfer of power. If Trump loses, we will likely be faced with the most serious challenge to our bedrock values in our history.

Trump has already shown what he believes and how he will act, so the question will be: do we all still believe in democracy?

Just more political posturing. Its nothing but the left is making a huge deal out of it.

Realistically, what do you think Trump would actually do if he didn't win? Invoke martial law? Legal challenges?

 

[Cubs79]

Just more political posturing. Its nothing but the left is making a huge deal out of it.

Realistically, what do you think Trump would actually do if he didn't win? Invoke martial law? Legal challenges?

I think he is going to refuse to accept the results if he loses, and yes, I think he will challenge in court and rile up all of his supporters. It isn't simply political posturing to essentially say you wont accept a peaceful transfer of power, it is a threat.

 

[Cubs79]

If he loses a legit election, of course he should have a peaceful transfer of power. Now what is likely going to happen will be mail ballot fraud. Nobody would send $500 cash in the mail. But we are going to trust these ballots in the mail are legit, some not thrown away, etc.

And this is the other thing Trump has done that weakens Democracy, convinced his supporters there is no way he can legitimately lose unless the other side cheats. When we cant trust our electoral process, then Democracy is likely on the way out.

 

[Cubs79]

Vote in person or a true absentee ballot that is confirmed. Apply for a loan and see if they don't confirm it is you. Anything else in life doesn't have this willy nilly attitude towards verification.

Again, you have no proof that the election is going to be "stolen" but you have already convinced your self that if Trump loses, that it is because the other side cheated. Never mind that the polling still has Biden winning, and that we pretty much know for sure that it will be close election no matter who wins or loses, but you have it in your head that Biden cant win unless he cheated. So I assume your answer to the question Shuck asked, is that no, you don't still believe in Democracy?

 

[Cubs79]

Would you not prefer having honest elections? There is no debate there won't be mail ballot fraud. Could be Republicans? Who knows. Not sure why in 2020 we have elections with little verification.

Not really a debate there won't be massive fraud. It's humans with a cheatable system.

There is no evidence these elections aren't honest. If you have evidence they aren't then we can talk.

There is certainly a debate to as whether there will be massive fraud. Mail in voting has been happening in various forms throughout the country for years, but for some reason in 2020, it's all about the Democrats trying to steal the election? So answer the question. Do you still believe in Democracy? It seems as though you don't.

 

[Crazyhole]

And this is the other thing Trump has done that weakens Democracy, convinced his supporters there is no way he can legitimately lose unless the other side cheats. When we cant trust our electoral process, then Democracy is likely on the way out.

This goes both ways. For months we heard that Trump stole the election because the electoral college is an unfair system and even today democrats are talking about dissolving it. Do you trust the electoral college?

 

[Crazyhole]

1) if we can trust 327 million folks to be honest, why have credit reports, Id verifications for everything else, and it goes on.

2) are you willing to mail out $500 in cash to yourself?

3) with all our technology do you not want to verify voters? Funny Democrats are always against verifications. Wonder why?

You want everyone to believe the voting, then create a system meant for 2020.

Trump should suggest a 100% online voting system. Thats consistent with 2020 standards and there is no chance of fraud based on the fact that people willingly put their personal banking information into the internet.

 

[Cubs79]

This goes both ways. For months we heard that Trump stole the election because the electoral college is an unfair system and even today democrats are talking about dissolving it. Do you trust the electoral college?

That is a different argument. The EC is a policy decision, we can agree or disagree whether a policy is good or bad, that is actually a good thing about Democracy, to be able to have discussions over these things. Knight is flat out saying if Biden wins it is because they rigged the votes. These aren't remotely the same type of arguments.

 

[Cubs79]

1) if we can trust 327 million folks to be honest, why have credit reports, Id verifications for everything else, and it goes on.

2) are you willing to mail out $500 in cash to yourself?

3) with all our technology do you not want to verify voters? Funny Democrats are always against verifications. Wonder why?

You want everyone to believe the voting, then create a system meant for 2020.

So you don't believe in Democracy is your answer yes?

And mail in ballots are verified the same way absentee ballots are, since they are the same thing. Should we get rid of absentee ballots too?

 

[Boosted87]

Just more political posturing. Its nothing but the left is making a huge deal out of it.

Realistically, what do you think Trump would actually do if he didn't win? Invoke martial law? Legal challenges?

OK well here's the plan. Notice the last bullet point - Chairman of Pennsylvania Republican party confirms, on the record, discussing this strategy with the campaign. Our system is NOT foolproof. It's requires humans acting in good faith. This is why Trump convincing his base that rampant fraud exists is so dangerous. If you honestly believe there is fraud, then you are willing to support things you otherwise wouldn't to "save the country."

A jarring new report from The Atlantic claims that the Trump campaign is discussing potential strategies to circumvent the results of the 2020 election, should Joe Biden defeat Donald Trump, by first alleging the existence of rampant fraud and then asking legislators in battleground states where the Republicans have a legislative majority to bypass the state’s popular vote and instead to choose electors loyal to the GOP and the sitting president. ​

​

• Following the casting of ballots and counting individual votes in a presidential election, the United States Constitution prescribes that the 538 electors who constitute the Electoral College cast their electoral votes, determining the winner.
• Customarily, electors are chosen by popular vote, but nothing in the Constitution mandates that tradition, with Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 merely asserting that each state shall appoint electors “in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct.”
• Since the late 1800s, every state in every presidential election has ceded the decision to its voters, but the Supreme Court affirmed in Bush v. Gore that a state “can take back the power to appoint electors.”
• The Atlantic report claims that sources in the Republican Party at the local and national levels confirm that “the Trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results and appoint loyal electors” in red battleground states.
• “The push to appoint electors would be framed in terms of protecting the people’s will,” an unnamed Trump-campaign legal adviser tells The Atlantic, adding, “The state legislatures will say, ‘All right, we’ve been given this constitutional power. We don’t think the results of our own state are accurate, so here’s our slate of electors that we think properly reflect the results of our state.’”
• The chairman of the Pennsylvania Republican Party says, on the record, that he has discussed appointing loyal electors with the Trump campaign: “It is one of the available legal options set forth in the Constitution.”

Report: Trump Campaign Actively Discussing Radical Measures To Bypass Election Results

The chairman of the Pennsylvania Republican Party acknowledged he has discussed appointing loyal electors with the Trump campaign.

www.forbes.com

 

[Crazyhole]

That is a different argument. The EC is a policy decision, we can agree or disagree whether a policy is good or bad, that is actually a good thing about Democracy, to be able to have discussions over these things. Knight is flat out saying if Biden wins it is because they rigged the votes. These aren't remotely the same type of arguments.

They wouldn't be the same argument if democrats hadnt come out immediately and said that Trump is an illegitimate president. You can't dismiss how the left has also undermined faith in whether an election is legitimate or not.

 

[DaShuckster]

They wouldn't be the same argument if democrats hadnt come out immediately and said that Trump is an illegitimate president. You can't dismiss how the left has also undermined faith in whether an election is legitimate or not.

This issue is all the left's fault?

Last I checked, Clinton conceded in 2016. It was Trump who set the stage for a fight with his "it's all rigged" comments before, low and behold, it wasn't rigged. Even then he set up a commission after taking office to look at "illegal voting." He claimed 3 million people voted illegally (the number he lost by in the popular vote.) It quietly disbanded in 2017 after finding Nadda.

Let's see if Trump concedes if he loses this year. Want to put some money on it?

 

[Crazyhole]

This issue is all the left's fault?

Last I checked, Clinton conceded in 2016. It was Trump who set the stage for a fight with his "it's all rigged" comments before, low and behold, it wasn't rigged. Even then he set up a commission after taking office to look at "illegal voting." He claimed 3 million people voted illegally (the number he lost by in the popular vote.) It quietly disbanded in 2017 after finding Nadda.

Let's see if Trump concedes if he loses this year. Want to put some money on it?

I didn't say it was only the fault of the left. Trump is equally complicit in the issue. The fact of the matter is that both side have brought the idea of illegitimate elections into the public discourse.

 

[DaShuckster]

I didn't say it was only the fault of the left. Trump is equally complicit in the issue. The fact of the matter is that both side have brought the idea of illegitimate elections into the public discourse.

The left brought up the idea of an illegitimate election? Really?

I've heard left-leaning people grouse about the Electoral College vs the popular vote and grumble about the influence of Russian interference (social media and hacking) but that's pretty much it.

Yeah, you can point to wacko extremists on either side talking about stolen elections -- or pedophile sex rings -- but that's not a hill you'd want to plant your flag on.

 

[bobok]

Just more political posturing. Its nothing but the left is making a huge deal out of it.

Realistically, what do you think Trump would actually do if he didn't win? Invoke martial law? Legal challenges?

all of the above

 

[Cubs79]

They wouldn't be the same argument if democrats hadnt come out immediately and said that Trump is an illegitimate president. You can't dismiss how the left has also undermined faith in whether an election is legitimate or not.

Ok, so the answer to Shucks question is what? do you still believe in Democracy?

 

[Crazyhole]

The left brought up the idea of an illegitimate election? Really?

I've heard left-leaning people grouse about the Electoral College vs the popular vote and grumble about the influence of Russian interference (social media and hacking) but that's pretty much it.

Yeah, you can point to wacko extremists on either side talking about stolen elections -- or pedophile sex rings -- but that's not a hill you'd want to plant your flag on.

Fine. Since you have reading comprehension problems I am more than happy to blame the left as opposed to having an objective discussion. It started in 2001 when democrats went full-on REEEEEE when Bush beat gore. Then, like a bunch of little bitches in 2016 they refused to accept that Trump won and now demand the system be changed because they are a bunch of little bitches that can't handle the fact that things don't always go their way. Suck it up and stop looking for someone to save you.

 

[Crazyhole]

Ok, so the answer to Shucks question is what? do you still believe in Democracy?

I dont and never will believe in democracy because all that means is tyranny of the majority. The majority of Americans are pro-life. You cool with that?

 

[Cubs79]

I dont and never will believe in democracy because all that means is tyranny of the majority. The majority of Americans are pro-life. You cool with that?

The majority of American's are certainly not pro life, but you let me rephrase the question. Do you still believe in the American system?

 

[Crazyhole]

The majority of American's are certainly not pro life, but you let me rephrase the question. Do you still believe in the American system?

Yes. And I dont think it should be changed for political reasons.

 

[Cubs79]

Yes. And I dont think it should be changed for political reasons.

Everything DC does is for political reasons. But it is weird you guys have so many concerns about elections, yet for some reason still believe in our system.

 

[Crazyhole]

Everything DC does is for political reasons. But it is weird you guys have so many concerns about elections, yet for some reason still believe in our system.

Why is it weird to expect that only eligible voters actually vote? Do you want Russians voting for the president of the United States?

 

[Cubs79]

Why is it weird to expect that only eligible voters actually vote? Do you want Russians voting for the president of the United States?

I expect only eligible voters to vote too, so not sure your point. I am not the one claiming there is voter fraud for an election that hasn't even taken place yet.

 

[Boosted87]

Why is it weird to expect that only eligible voters actually vote? Do you want Russians voting for the president of the United States?

This reminds me of the South Park movie showing this menacing image of how Canadians were amassing all their population near the US border, used as evidence of an immanent Canadian threat.

This is what's happening. A non-threat is being turned into a threat, and you've basically said "So you're OK with Canada invading America?" Of course I'm not OK with Canada invading America. But that doesn't mean it's something that I should actually be worried about. And if you're worried about, then you're falling for the distraction.

 

[NinjaKnight]

This reminds me of the South Park movie showing this menacing image of how Canadians were amassing all their population near the US border, used as evidence of an immanent Canadian threat.

This is what's happening. A non-threat is being turned into a threat, and you've basically said "So you're OK with Canada invading America?" Of course I'm not OK with Canada invading America. But that doesn't mean it's something that I should actually be worried about. And if you're worried about, then you're falling for the distraction.

You have to realize you are trying to debate with literal morons.

Tone down the grammar to elementary school levels, like Trump does, to better connect with your targeted demographic.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

If he loses a legit election, of course he should have a peaceful transfer of power. Now what is likely going to happen will be mail ballot fraud. Nobody would send $500 cash in the mail. But we are going to trust these ballots in the mail are legit, some not thrown away, etc.

People send and receive checks in the mail every day.

 

[DaShuckster]

People send and receive checks in the mail every day.

Last month my wife and I sent a certified check for a little over 83,000 dollars to pay off the mortgage on a property we sold. When we called the loan company a week or so later to ask what the remaining interest we still owned was, they gave us a figure that totally ignored our payoff payment.

After an hour and a half on the phone, I was finally able to speak to a supervisor who told me -- get this -- they returned our certified check since it was for the full, not a partial amount. Because we paid in full, they had no way of determining the interest we owed -- so this loan company's genius solution was to send us back our check -- which we hadn't received yet.

I seriously had nightmares of being stiffed $83,000 because we never got the check back and, because it was certified, it wasn't in our account anymore either.

Fortunately I never had to worry about what I'd have to do to recover our money in this crazy scenario because a day later -- to our great relief -- we received the returned check in the mail. Now THAT is what I call trusting the US mail!

 

[Crazyhole]

This reminds me of the South Park movie showing this menacing image of how Canadians were amassing all their population near the US border, used as evidence of an immanent Canadian threat.

This is what's happening. A non-threat is being turned into a threat, and you've basically said "So you're OK with Canada invading America?" Of course I'm not OK with Canada invading America. But that doesn't mean it's something that I should actually be worried about. And if you're worried about, then you're falling for the distraction.

Did you just invoke south park as evidence of your position?

 

[Crazyhole]

Last month my wife and I sent a certified check for a little over 83,000 dollars to pay off the mortgage on a property we sold. When we called the loan company a week or so later to ask what the remaining interest we still owned was, they gave us a figure that totally ignored our payoff payment.

After an hour and a half on the phone, I was finally able to speak to a supervisor who told me -- get this -- they returned our certified check since it was for the full, not a partial amount. Because we paid in full, they had no way of determining the interest we owed -- so this loan company's genius solution was to send us back our check -- which we hadn't received yet.

I seriously had nightmares of being stiffed $83,000 because we never got the check back and, because it was certified, it wasn't in our account anymore either.

Fortunately I never had to worry about what I'd have to do to recover our money in this crazy scenario because a day later -- to our great relief -- we received the returned check in the mail. Now THAT is what I call trusting the US mail!

You seriously mailed a certified check for 80 grand? That is pretty ballsy.

 

[Knight_Classes_begin_7pm]

One of the greatest things about our country has been the peaceful transfer of power. Yesterday Trump refused to answer the question of stepping down if he loses by saying that the only way he'll lose is if there is voter fraud. IMHO, this is a five-alarm fire regarding American democracy. Throughout our history -- even in 2000 -- we have had a peaceful transfer of power. If Trump loses, we will likely be faced with the most serious challenge to our bedrock values in our history.

Trump has already shown what he believes and how he will act, so the question will be: do we all still believe in democracy?

I believe in it but if an immoral lying cheating criminal becomes a president, democracy is out the window.

 

[Knight_Classes_begin_7pm]

Last month my wife and I sent a certified check for a little over 83,000 dollars to pay off the mortgage on a property we sold. When we called the loan company a week or so later to ask what the remaining interest we still owned was, they gave us a figure that totally ignored our payoff payment.

After an hour and a half on the phone, I was finally able to speak to a supervisor who told me -- get this -- they returned our certified check since it was for the full, not a partial amount. Because we paid in full, they had no way of determining the interest we owed -- so this loan company's genius solution was to send us back our check -- which we hadn't received yet.

I seriously had nightmares of being stiffed $83,000 because we never got the check back and, because it was certified, it wasn't in our account anymore either.

Fortunately I never had to worry about what I'd have to do to recover our money in this crazy scenario because a day later -- to our great relief -- we received the returned check in the mail. Now THAT is what I call trusting the US mail!

Glad you got the check back Shuck.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

Last month my wife and I sent a certified check for a little over 83,000 dollars to pay off the mortgage on a property we sold. When we called the loan company a week or so later to ask what the remaining interest we still owned was, they gave us a figure that totally ignored our payoff payment.

After an hour and a half on the phone, I was finally able to speak to a supervisor who told me -- get this -- they returned our certified check since it was for the full, not a partial amount. Because we paid in full, they had no way of determining the interest we owed -- so this loan company's genius solution was to send us back our check -- which we hadn't received yet.

I seriously had nightmares of being stiffed $83,000 because we never got the check back and, because it was certified, it wasn't in our account anymore either.

Fortunately I never had to worry about what I'd have to do to recover our money in this crazy scenario because a day later -- to our great relief -- we received the returned check in the mail. Now THAT is what I call trusting the US mail!

Imagine a system where you could vote by mail. And then get this...you could use some mechanism to verify that your vote was received and counted. I hope one day we are able to achieve something like this, but for now it’s just a pipe dream.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Imagine a system where you could vote by mail. And then get this...you could use some mechanism to verify that your vote was received and counted. I hope one day we are able to achieve something like this, but for now it’s just a pipe dream.

This whole thing is just so painfully stupid.

Voting by mail was never a problem, until these brain dead chuds were told by trump that it's a problem.

Example # 1,000,000 how trump supporters are the ultimate cucks, completely incapable of thinking for themselves. They swallow whatever he says hook, line, and sinker.

 

[Crazyhole]

Imagine being dumb enough to send 80,000 dollars cash in the mail. Literally nobody does this. Ever. I've bought and sold over 20 properties, paid off at least that many loans, received payments from customers that were twice that amount and never once did it involve sending a certified check through the mail. You guys are dumb if you believe this is a real story

 

[DaShuckster]

You seriously mailed a certified check for 80 grand? That is pretty ballsy.

In hindsight, yes it was.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

Imagine being dumb enough to send 80,000 dollars cash in the mail. Literally nobody does this. Ever. I've bought and sold over 20 properties, paid off at least that many loans, received payments from customers that were twice that amount and never once did it involve sending a certified check through the mail. You guys are dumb if you believe this is a real story

Not sure about cash. But recently received an insurance check for house damage for 5 figures. In the mail. If somebody takes it they can’t cash it and I ask for another one. Would be a bit of inconvenience were that to happen. But not as much of an inconvenience as having to go in person to the insurance company to pick it up. A cashiers check is not cash. It is a secure payment method backed by the bank and made out to a certain payee. Perfectly acceptable to send via the mail.

 

[Nautiknight]

I never believed in Democracy. Democracy is where 51 percent run rough shod over the 49%. If you want to see Democracy in action go to facebook . it's chaos,it's mean spirited and it's a land of bullies.

I believe in a Constitutional Republic and Federalism. I believe in the Bill of Rights. I believe in the most amount of liberty provided by the least amount of government. I believe a guy named Dashuckster knows more about how to run his life, make the choices he sees fit for him and his family and I trust he knows what's best for him,his future, his money than I do. I believe he knows this and I believe no government bureaucrat or politician knows what's best for you..I trust you to run your life as you see fit.

I believe that very few here knows what's best for my life, for my family , for my business or my money. I believe politicians know even less and care even less than that.

I think voting is important and voting in person is by far the best way to maintain election integrity. I hope everyone votes.

 

[Crazyhole]

Not sure about cash. But recently received an insurance check for house damage for 5 figures. In the mail. If somebody takes it they can’t cash it and I ask for another one. Would be a bit of inconvenience were that to happen. But not as much of an inconvenience as having to go in person to the insurance company to pick it up. A cashiers check is not cash. It is a secure payment method backed by the bank and made out to a certain payee. Perfectly acceptable to send via the mail.

You apparently don't know how difficult it is and how long it takes to have a cashiers check canceled. I never use them unless I am delivering them in person and get a receipt. Electronic bank transfers are the only way to go when paying for property or paying off a loan. For something like what shuckster describes, there is no reason to not just write a personal check anyway.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

You apparently don't know how difficult it is and how long it takes to have a cashiers check canceled. I never use them unless I am delivering them in person and get a receipt. Electronic bank transfers are the only way to go when paying for property or paying off a loan. For something like what shuckster describes, there is no reason to not just write a personal check anyway.

Well he said a certified check which is just a personal check where your bank guarantees you have the funds and freezes them in your account. The point remains that people send these type of checks in the mail frequently.