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Growing the AAC into a power conference?

Agree that a BIG12 without the Sooners and the Whorns would stand a chance of losing their P5 status. Thats probably unpopular, but I think the P5 is quickly moving to a P4. No clue where that puts UCF in the shuffle however.

It the B12 only loses the Whorns and Sooners, it is highly likely they keep P5 status. The B12 would still have plenty of P5 quality programs. The Big East did not lose it's P5 status until Virginia Tech, Miami, Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVU all left.

Now if the B12 lost 4 of it's top 6 schools, that is where I would get concerned abut losing P5. However, backfilling the B12 with the best from the AAC (UCF, Cincinnati, Houston, USF, Temple and UCONN) would still likely result in better overall perception and financials than the current AAC.
 
It the B12 only loses the Whorns and Sooners, it is highly likely they keep P5 status. The B12 would still have plenty of P5 quality programs. The Big East did not lose it's P5 status until Virginia Tech, Miami, Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVU all left.

Now if the B12 lost 4 of it's top 6 schools, that is where I would get concerned abut losing P5. However, backfilling the B12 with the best from the AAC (UCF, Cincinnati, Houston, USF, Temple and UCONN) would still likely result in better overall perception and financials than the current AAC.
I don't see it that way. Blue Bloods give the conference a way to measure strength. Take those two teams away, then it becomes - okay, you beat Okie Lite and who? Kansas? So what? There is only one way to counter this which would be to stack your OOC schedule with at least 1 or two blue bloods or flavor of the year teams to give it legitimacy.

I agree with your last point though, that it would increase overall perception and yield a higher monetary value than that of the current AAC. To which UCF would be silly NOT to switch conferences. But to assume that the back filling of the B12 with cream of the AAC crop is enough to reestablish the B12 as legitimate power conference is laughable.
 
I don't see it that way. Blue Bloods give the conference a way to measure strength. Take those two teams away, then it becomes - okay, you beat Okie Lite and who? Kansas? So what?

Well, we may get the chance to see which one of us is right.

Baylor and TCU are not Blue Bloods, but they have had enough sustained success over the past several years that them, combined with Oklahoma State (who is just as much of a Blue Blood as teams like Florida State or either of the SEC schools in Mississippi) makes for just as tough of a schedule as your typical ACC team plays where Florida State and Clemson are the only consistently successful programs.

Add in middle of the road teams with long P5 history such as Texas Tech and Kansas State and I think they keep P5, though they would obviously be considered a lesser P5 like the Big East was after Miami, BC and Va Tech left.
 
Honors, this is refreshing. You actually taking the time to explain your view. I will highlight some fallacies that you used to invalidate your points.

"We hired and retained the same coach ND hired. ND is a blueblood. We had a blueblood coach for 11 years. That's a refute of your point. Other coaches we had went on to do great things like Gene being HC of a national championship team. UCF would've never hired him as our HC. That's a refute of your point. Ect..."

Are you really defining O'Leary as blue blood coach since he was hired at Notre Dame for 5 seconds? This is the weakest of all your points. While it is true that Gene did go on to do great things, he is far from the norm. For every Gene there are MANY more coaches that do NOT go on to have the success he did. The point I want to stress however, is that UCF didn't hire Gene at the top of his game or pull him from a top program. He used UCF as a stepping stone to elevate his career. If we were in a P5 conference, there is a much higher probability that he would have stayed. This counter refutes your point.

I name several factors that changed when the 4 team playoff was created. You come back with prestige of 3 of 11 conferences got better. Okay those names like the Big East in basketball will always be there. You made my point. That's a refute of your point. Things change when the landscape changes. The sec big 10 and the PAC 12 all changed when the playoffs started. That's a refute of your point.

There is a reason I only named 3 of the 11 conferences. I actually agree with you whole heartedly that landscape of football has completely changed in the last 30 years more so than any other span of time of the history of College Football. Here is why I only acknowledged the 3 and omitted how easily things changed for the other 8 - ESPN has solely created the environment for specific conferences to excel. Since ESPN has established the big 3 as the kings of College Football, and since ESPN holds the majority of the cards - it is in ESPN's best interest to have the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer. This all but guarantees a disparity in team competitiveness and solidifies their investments while blocking out the have nots. Even with UCF's rise to fame with the Fiesta Bowl win, ESPN has been quick to relegate UCF back to obscurity. Why? Because it's not in their best interest, and is also why you're not going to see much instability for these 3 specific conferences any time soon. Also, you are correct in saying, the B10, PAC 12 and SEC changed when the playoffs started, they got all that more sway/bias towards teams that will make it in further solidifying my point.

Several schools had none of those rich tradition or history but recently became successful. While several schools have history and tradition of winning but find themselves in the G5. That's a refute of your point. Don't have time to educate you on each one, SMU, Oregon, Tulane, Colorado, Army, ect...

Oregon is an out-liar in the list you produced because of the massive infusion of wealth from Phil Knight. Why did he have to do that? Because like you said, Oregon even though they are in a p5 conference, they lack rich tradition and had to supplement that deficit by said large $$$ infusion in order to compete with the big boys for recruits. Even with the best facilities in College Football and a good coach, they were still only able to secure a 32nd ranked recruiting class. Take Michigan for example, they have been horrible recently, but they have rich tradition. All it took was 1 good hire to gain them back to national prominence. That's what tradition combined with a good coach does. If you take ALL THE TEAMS you listed (minus Oregon), the viewership (which is what my original point addressed) is not even close to any SINGLE top teams overall ratings in the PAC12, B10 and SEC. Why is this important? P5 conference affiliation, combined with ESPN's backing creates a snowball effect for success. You can't have one without the other, the AAC is not going to get us there no matter how much success we have if we remain in the AAC.

This is actually a good question / point. Honestly I don't know how Baylor went from bottom dweller to the top.

As I mentioned above, P5 conference affiliation and ESPN's backing. It is true that the B12 is not one of ESPN's baby's, they are still invested in the B12 (for now) and with Art Briles being able to elevate their success on the field, they have garnered support from ESPN (both required to move the needle of national perception) - but even with their high level of success, since Baylor/TCU lack tradition - the inner circle still snuffed them during the 2014 CFP.

I don't want to be in conference where the rules favor 2 bluebloods at the detriment of the other 8. TCU established their name without being under the shadow of UT and OU. I'm saying it's easier to establish your team without being under the spotlight of bluebloods in a conference.

Unfortunately, blue blood affiliation is a necessary evil in order to gain prestige. If/when OU and Texas leave the B12 and UCF is invited, you're going to see that the B12 either loses its power 5 status, or becomes the AAC 2.0 regarding national perception and regardless of on field success, they are never going to get to the level of UF/FSU in terms of being able to recruit with the big boys and garner national respect (see Boise/BYU as examples) for a long time despite large amounts of alums. It does however put us much farther ahead of other G5 candidates in terms of potential and growth. The only exception is that an antitrust lawsuit breaks up all the conferences and forces an AFC/NFC type league and levels the playing field both monetarily and blue blood exclusitivity.

Clearly you don't understand or have been ignoring my points. I've respectfully have been refuting all your points throughout this thread.

I understand just fine, just showing you how you're wrong.

As I was reading your well thought out response (kudos) I was just salivating to hit you with a response that you said at the end, "The only exception is that an antitrust lawsuit breaks up all the conferences and forces an AFC/NFC type league and levels the playing field both monetarily and blue blood exclusitivity." That took the words out of my mouth.​


Look, you get it. My persona doesn't allow me not to be a dick.

My whole view is based on what I see as clear collusion of a cartel ala the "Power 5" AND ESPN. We can debate that point, but you will never change my view.

There are multiple ways to break up a cartel. One is an antitrust suit. Another way is competition. You get the first one but unless you're a capitalist like I am, you probably won't get the second way, competition. So I'll expound on it.


Competition can be a way to break up with cartel. Not with more football teams but new competition in TV. I believe the big whiff by the Big East/ AAC commissioner was not going all in with FS1, and instead going with ESPN. From a strategy perspective the AAC commissioner should have got the big 12 and the MountainWest to say hey let's all join FS1 so we can get the spotlight and the hype the SEC has been getting from ESPN. It wouldn't have been for money but for exposure and talking heads who would have a vested interest to constantly say these 3 conferences are just as good as the others one including the SEC. That's the competition I'm talking about. I get why they didn't do that.


Going all in with the ESPNs rival network is more risk and reward. 1st ESPN owns college football's postseason - the bowl games' coverage. So ESPN probably would have responded by excluding the "FS1 conferences" from bowl games via making arbitrary rules that would excluded them much like how the cartel did with the change from the BCS to the playoffs. So risk being excluded from the postseason & the honey pot for a chance at breaking up the cartel. Big risky gamble. That is Strategy. That's the chess match of strategy which is knowing if you make a move, your opponent will make a counter move. Also, when the Big East was redoing their TV deal, prominent Senator Orrin Hatch publicly vowed to see his antitrust investigation through. He said something to the affect of, "Where other antitrust investigations have been bribed away, I will make sure this one will be seen through." Being a big Utah fan, even old Orrin was bribed not to see the antitrust suit through when Utah was invited into the PAC 12. But it put enough pressure on the cartel to create a bullshit playoff which is worse than the BCS.

I don't know what will break up the cartel. It could be FS1, a 16 team playoff or something else I never thought of. Something will break up the cartel BECAUSE cartels never last. One thing that will never break up the P5 ESPN cartel is an antitrust lawsuit. I'll explain.

The devil is in the details. Antitrust lawsuits have only gone after "big evil greedy corporations". If it was just ESPN being a monopoly, it would've been shut by an antitrust suit. This is a cartel with collusion by public universities. They are state funded and run government institutions. For an antitrust suit to happen, The federal department of justice would have to implicate and sue state government institutions of conspiring and colluding against other state run institutions. That almost sounds like a conspiracy. But that is what has happened. Not for the sake of better education or for more federal subsidies. These state institutions have conspired colluded together to give their football teams a competitive advantage.

Most sports fans hate politics. They don't even want to entertain the thought the politics can influence the sports that they love. Nobody wants the federal government to stick it's nose in college football. An antitrust lawsuit would do just that. An antitrust lawsuit would do much more than that. It would say State institutions have broken federal laws. Who do you hold accountable for that? Who do you put in prison? What damages and remedies do assess? How does the federal government ever correct this wrong without the government saying that government is... wrong? For those reasons and many others, an antitrust lawsuit will. NEVER. HAPPEN. AGAINST. THE. THE POWER 5 ESPN CARTLE. Never.

For me, I just hope UCF goes bowling next year, and gets to dip it's finger in the honey pot. So, I guess even I can be bribed away.


:drops mic:
 
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With the size and potential this school has, it should never settle for anything. There is no reason in a P5 conf, that we can not become an FSU or Auburn.
Comparing top end possibilities to Duke, WK, or Cuse, Iowa St, ect is idiotic.

I mean LOL that it can be an auburn or FSU. I was thinking more like TCU or Baylor. Those are good schools but not traditional powers. UCF will never become a traditional power. Settling as a top mid major is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I would rather UCF be a middle of the pack P5 school than a top G5 school.
 
I would rather UCF be a middle of the pack P5 school than a top G5 school.

So, you would rather be just outside the Top 25 and never make an Access Bowl vs be ranked in the Top 25 and make an Access Bowl every four to five years?
 
I mean LOL that it can be an auburn or FSU. I was thinking more like TCU or Baylor. Those are good schools but not traditional powers. UCF will never become a traditional power. Settling as a top mid major is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I would rather UCF be a middle of the pack P5 school than a top G5 school.

No they won't be a top program for a while, but long term the potential is off the charts. FSU was nothing before Bobby Bowden got there, No one cared about FSU in the late 60s. FSU is a perfect example of what UCF can do, I remember TV announcers, laughing at FSU the first time they cracked the top 5. Even UF as a traditional Power team is pretty new. They were mostly a middle of the road SEC school.

UCF on an equal conference footing has every bit the potential they do. TCU and Baylor are fairly small private schools. UCF's long term alumni base dwarfs theirs. As does its potential. The old established programs have history which UCF does not, but that difference shrinks with age. Future upside for the hurricanes is limited, there is no reason 20 years from now we are the clear #3 in Florida.
 
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No they won't be a top program for a while, but long term the potential is off the charts. FSU was nothing before Bobby Bowden got there, No one cared about FSU in the late 60s. FSU is a perfect example of what UCF can do, I remember TV announcers, laughing at FSU the first time they cracked the top 5. Even UF as a traditional Power team is pretty new. They were mostly a middle of the road SEC school.

UCF on an equal conference footing has every bit the potential they do. TCU and Baylor are fairly small private schools. UCF's long term alumni base dwarfs theirs. As does its potential. The old established programs have history which UCF does not, but that difference shrinks with age. Future upside for the hurricanes is limited, there is no reason 20 years from now we are the clear #3 in Florida.

It's really just a matter of time. When, not if. Too much going for us. Masterknights jabs will be a thing to laugh at. The past. Now.. His points are just weak. Even UF hasn't been relevant in a few years and been consistently good in several years. This year's start was flawed because of a QB who should never have been playing in the first place. What would UFs record been this year with Harris only???
 
I gather that Master Knight is fairly young. History for people starts at birth and ends at death. Someone under the age of 40 just assumes UF and FSU were always elite programs or have been for a long time. Bottom line is all 3 of the big 3 in FLA were nothing as late as the mid 60's. FSU really didn't take off till the 70's. UM was on the edge of shutting the FB program down in the late 60's. In fla you have 3 nothing programs that became (("historical")) elite programs in the last 45 years.
 
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I gather that Master Knight is fairly young. History for people starts at birth and ends at death. Someone under the age of 40 just assumes UF and FSU were always elite programs or have been for a long time. Bottom line is all 3 of the big 3 in FLA were nothing as late as the mid 60's. FSU really didn't take off till the 70's. UM was on the edge of shutting the FB program down in the late 60's. In fla you have 3 nothing programs that became (("historical")) elite programs in the last 45 years.

I always remind UF FSU and Miami fans that it took their teams 80+ years of D1 football to win anything. UCF did more in it's first 9 years of D1 football. [smoke]
 
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Neither was in a big time conf for those 80 years. Just about the time they started to make real noise they got a shot in a Power Conf. and blossomed when they got there.
 
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But this was when the college football landscape was wide open. UF FSU and other established programs make it harder for newer ones to become established. You can keep hanging onto to the 60s and 70s to make your argument but the truth is that a school like UCF has an almost impossible task of becoming a power than UF or FSU had decades ago
 
I agree it is harder today. But it is all but impossible outside the P5. I don't for a minute think UCF will get there over night. UCF has everything it needs in a large conf to make itself a power.
 
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But this was when the college football landscape was wide open. UF FSU and other established programs make it harder for newer ones to become established. You can keep hanging onto to the 60s and 70s to make your argument but the truth is that a school like UCF has an almost impossible task of becoming a power than UF or FSU had decades ago

Actually, that's the first reasonable thing we have ever seen you say. You finally admitted that the system has a built in bias toward anyone not already "in the club," making it much more difficult now than it has ever been for new programs to rise up.

If this was regular business rather than the protected monopoly that it is, that type of anti-competitive collusion would be illegal.
 
Agree the process is rigged. that being said you need insider status in one of the rigging leagues. The AAC long term will not cut it.
 
So, you would rather be just outside the Top 25 and never make an Access Bowl vs be ranked in the Top 25 and make an Access Bowl every four to five years?
Fun for the fans to beat their chests because they may have an easier path to an access bowl, but unless another TV network forms that wants to pay the AAC big money, but Kansas gets more money than Houston and it isnt even close.
 
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Fun for the fans to beat their chests because they may have an easier path to an access bowl, but unless another TV network forms that wants to pay the AAC big money, but Kansas gets more money than Houston and it isnt even close.

But, if UCF is getting into the Access Bowl once every 4-5 years and Kansas is hardly ever getting a bowl game of ANY kind, who is in the better position?

I am not saying that we would be as bad as Kansas in the B12, or that we should turn down a B12 invite if it is offered. Just that routinely being in the top 2-3 of the G5 teams is not the death sentence everyone seems to think it would be.
 
But, if UCF is getting into the Access Bowl once every 4-5 years and Kansas is hardly ever getting a bowl game of ANY kind, who is in the better position?
I am not saying that we would be as bad as Kansas in the B12, or that we should turn down a B12 invite if it is offered. Just that routinely being in the top 2-3 of the G5 teams is not the death sentence everyone seems to think it would be.

Kansas gets over $20 million plus per year. Kansas has a schedule that our section of our fanbase wishes we had. Just remember that next time someone whines about how no one of value shows up to the BHN Stadium this or next coming season.

At least we have Navy to look forward to and possibly Houston if they continue to stay good....in addition to South Florida and ECU to a lesser extent.

Sure for some reason we're lucky to be Top 10 out of the 50 something G5 schools with a shot at the access bowl. It doesn't help that we're still broke.
 
Actually, that's the first reasonable thing we have ever seen you say. You finally admitted that the system has a built in bias toward anyone not already "in the club," making it much more difficult now than it has ever been for new programs to rise up.

If this was regular business rather than the protected monopoly that it is, that type of anti-competitive collusion would be illegal.

Yep. You nailed it.
 
Actually, that's the first reasonable thing we have ever seen you say. You finally admitted that the system has a built in bias toward anyone not already "in the club," making it much more difficult now than it has ever been for new programs to rise up.

If this was regular business rather than the protected monopoly that it is, that type of anti-competitive collusion would be illegal.

I have said this before but you choose to ignore it and I'm dealing with reality while you source your dreams and wishes for your argument. UCF has a larger hill to climb than the currently established programs had decades ago. Hence why UcF needs to put together multiple 2013 like seasons to impress the "big boys club." That's what TCU had to do. Maryland and other P5 conference swaps are different because they were already in the "club."

Bottom line, win win win to boost resume and to energize a lukewarm and unloyal fanbase to demonstrate viability to a P5 conference. UCF had momentum after 2013 but pissed it away with 0-12.
 
Agree the process is rigged. that being said you need insider status in one of the rigging leagues. The AAC long term will not cut it.

Yup. The only solution is to win. UCF does have the resources to make the step but they are consistently inconsistent. The run they had from 10-14 was good but could have been so much better considering the NFL talent those teams had.

2010 should have seen a win v Russell wilsons NC St and Kansas st but it ended up being a good not great season. They could have easily won both this games and would have gone a long way toward national perception. Nail biter win v 6-6 Georgia. Milestone for UCF but doesn't do much to boost national profile

2011 typical down year after a good year. Awesome blowout win v BC but then disaster the rest of the year. No bowl game

2012 bounce back year but again blow a chance at a P5 win v Missouri. Fought valiantly v Ohio st. 2010 like season except they lost the conf title game. Imo underwhelming season with the likes of bortles, Murray, Robinson etc

2013 signature season. National win v eventual P5 Louisville. Close loss to SC at home. Should have won that game but can't knock UCF for not winning. Close season with a blowout in the fiesta bowl.

2014 blown game I'm Ireland v penn st and a crushing loss to uconn stain an otherwise similar season to 2012. Lose to a mediocre NC st in their bowl game.

UCF had every chance to put together an impressive 5 year resume that would have put UCF in the big 12. 5 games that UCF needed to win..... 2010 NC St/kst, 2012 Missouri/CUSA title, 2014 penn st/uconn
 
Even FSU and Miami had to win games in the 80s and 90s for people to care. No one would have cared for them if they lost to Nebraska, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, etc. Ask East Carolina. They finally got to beat Miami in the 90s but in the oversaturated area market for college football, they didnt make the national title game like Va Tech did - and wasn't a state school that finagled its way into the SEC like South Carolina.
 
I don't see it that way. Blue Bloods give the conference a way to measure strength. Take those two teams away, then it becomes - okay, you beat Okie Lite and who? Kansas? So what? There is only one way to counter this which would be to stack your OOC schedule with at least 1 or two blue bloods or flavor of the year teams to give it legitimacy.

I agree with your last point though, that it would increase overall perception and yield a higher monetary value than that of the current AAC. To which UCF would be silly NOT to switch conferences. But to assume that the back filling of the B12 with cream of the AAC crop is enough to reestablish the B12 as legitimate power conference is laughable.

Just like BE in the old BCS, the B12 is locked in to p5 in new ACCESS/playoff deal until it is done. If B12 survives a raid, it will remain a P5 conf.

That is actually why B12 going to 12 fairly soon matters, odds of survival goes way up. Much like what happened under the first round of BE raids, it needs the 5 to 10 years to recover before any remake happens. unfortunately for BE the 2nd round of raids happened as BCS was ending, they didn't have to kick out the BE, rather only not add them in the new playoff/access bowl mix.
 
Amazing, but out of your last two posts, the only thing find slightly off base is the following...

Bottom line, win win win to boost resume and to energize a lukewarm and unloyal fanbase to demonstrate viability to a P5 conference. UCF had momentum after 2013 but pissed it away with 0-12.

Fact is, even with all of the success TCU had on the field, in the four years before TCU was invited to the B12, their average football attendance was worse than UCF's average football attendance from 2011-2014.

UCF's attendance average is higher than any other G5 team except ECU.
 
Amazing, but out of your last two posts, the only thing find slightly off base is the following...



Fact is, even with all of the success TCU had on the field, in the four years before TCU was invited to the B12, their average football attendance was worse than UCF's average football attendance from 2011-2014.

UCF's attendance average is higher than any other G5 team except ECU.

Guess it must have been the Dallas/Ft. Worth market that got TCU in. Expect Temple to get into the ACC next.
 
Guess it must have been the Dallas/Ft. Worth market that got TCU in. Expect Temple to get into the ACC next.

It's actually humorous how desperately hard you are working to be obstinate.

UCF could sell out every game and you would still find some lame, inaccurate argument against the Knights.

You simply have a biased, closed mind.
 
I've been supportive of UCfs 2013 season. My problem is you people think UcF is entitled to a big 12 invite coming off the heels of 0-12 and a weak resume v P5 teams. You talk about other teams like UCF is a national powerhouse. Whether it's USF, cincy or even a clearcut superior program like UFs (I personally think you attack UF just to get under my skin but it's not even close so I laugh it off)
 
I've been supportive of UCfs 2013 season. My problem is you people think UcF is entitled to a big 12 invite coming off the heels of 0-12 and a weak resume v P5 teams. You talk about other teams like UCF is a national powerhouse. Whether it's USF, cincy or even a clearcut superior program like UFs (I personally think you attack UF just to get under my skin but it's not even close so I laugh it off)
So you admit you are acting like a douche because you feel superior as a Gator fan? Gotta question why you're here man.
 
I've been supportive of UCfs 2013 season. My problem is you people think UcF is entitled to a big 12 invite coming off the heels of 0-12 and a weak resume v P5 teams.

Like I suggested to UT4Texas, you might want to double check the definition of the words you use before you post. With one or two possible exceptions, no one has said we are ENTITLED to a B12 invite.

The B12 is already in the news because they are discussing expansion, and based on factual information, UCF is one of the top 2 candidates, if not the top candidate. You may not agree, but later when I can post from my computer instead of by phone, I can spell out all of the advantages UCF has over Cincinnati, USF, Houston, UCONN, and Memphis.
 
You talk about other teams like UCF is a national powerhouse. Whether it's USF, cincy or even a clearcut superior program like UFs (I personally think you attack UF just to get under my skin but it's not even close so I laugh it off)

Since most UF fans are so arrogant it is easy and fun to "get under their skin."

Personally, I think a "blue blood" P5 program with multiple National Championships losing to Georgia Southern is just as bad as a G5 team losing to Furman, so we find it kind of humorous how you keep trying to throw that in our face.
 
UF and Tex have done less with more. Than most teams could even dream of. Both have been a huge waste of resources.
 
Since most UF fans are so arrogant it is easy and fun to "get under their skin."

Personally, I think a "blue blood" P5 program with multiple National Championships losing to Georgia Southern is just as bad as a G5 team losing to Furman, so we find it kind of humorous how you keep trying to throw that in our face.

You mean how it is fun for me to get under the skin of the entitled UCF fans on here? Now you know how fun it can be. Only difference is one school wishes they could be where the other one is at.

Everyone has their bad moments. I'm throwing it in your faces cause that's all UCF fans can bring up about UF. It's history now. We have a coach that brought UF back this past season and would have challenged for the title had our qb not been a moron.
 
Some of you are the same people that used to say UCF can "never" get to let alone win a BCS bowl against a BCS conference winner...
 
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