Interesting No Rudy, or Cheney discussion...
- Thread starter Trigeek
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The Republican Party Is for Liars Only
Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are discovering that there’s no room in the GOP for anyone who acknowledges that Biden beat Trump fair and square.
newrepublic.com
Remember that time 4 months ago the GOP tried to overthrow a fair and democratic election.
Today's GOP is a cult.
The Republican Party Is for Liars Only
Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are discovering that there’s no room in the GOP for anyone who acknowledges that Biden beat Trump fair and square.
Remember that time 4 months ago the GOP tried to overthrow a fair and democratic election.
Today's GOP is a cult.
It is interesting when I say the GOP has changed a lot in the last decade or so I always get push back. But when you consider that McCain and Romney, the previous GOP candidates, are both essentially hated by the party now, and Liz Cheney, the daughter of the last GOP VP prior to Pence, is now hated by the party. Pretty clear the party has shifted quite a bit with 3 run of the mill Republicans just a few years ago, are now considered pariahs to a good portion of the party.
It's changed and it hasn't. What's changed is that the base is tired of politicians who will not roll up their sleeves and fight back when the Democrats attack. Those type of politicians that give up important things for inconsequential things because they want to maintain the appearance of civility just aren't attractive any more after the years and years of being called every evil thing in the book and seeing Democrats fight as a strong and unified force where it seemed like the ends justified the means.
So, it's not that the party values have changed, unless you want to say that the GOP isn't really fighting over gay marriage or abortion or a number of other moral value things anymore. It's that the tone has changed from one of passive agreement to solid opposition.
I dont agree with this at all. In modern history at least, it has been Democrats who have been more willing to work with Republicans, not the other way around, at least back to Bill Clinton. IT was Republicans who refused to work with Obama, not the other way around.
It is true that Republicans became obstructionist after the first 2 years of Obama's attempt at foundational change to America. But even when Republicans held majorities, it was always 4 GOP Senators who went either way made policies or not. Other than Manchin recently, it doesn't seem that way on the D side. Maybe it's just appearance and its the same both ways.
That depends on how you define conservative, but not really sure what that has to do with my point.
The point is that republican voters tolerated slight moves to the left for a long time without getting anything in return other than an occasional tax cut. The stimulus and Obamacare were huge leaps to the left, so Republicans decided to dig in and reject candidates that refused to push back.
I dont understand your point. Yes, when Democrats have power they will try and get their policies passed, as do Republicans when they have power. That has nothing to do with my point though. I mean, Bill Clinton cut welfare by working with Gingrich, which is a perfect example of Democrats working with Republicans. Republicans worked with the ACA. The Democrats didnt force M4A or even the public option, they essentially passed a plan written up by a Republican think tank. George Bush also passed a stimulus, but nobody thinks George Bush was a move to the left. So electing people to push back is all fine and well, but when the other side is in power, its also not very smart for that to be the only goal. It is much more productive to be willing to work with the other side and try to at least get somethings your side wants.
Yes, you do not understand my point. Conservatives never get a win, while liberals do consistently.
So Clinton cutting welfare wasnt a win for conservatives? And you keep using the word conservative, when I am saying Republicans. Are you trying to distinguish Republicans and conversatives?
The fact that you're going back 26 years to show me a conservative policy being enacted proves my point.
But whose fault is that? It isnt Democrats fault, it is Republicans fault. GWB had the house and senate for 6 of his 8 years and Trump had both for half his term. So if conservative policies arent passing in your view, then your problem is with the Republican party, not the Democratic party.
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Conservative voters have grown tired of voting for "republicans" that don't deliver. That's why it might seem like the party has moved to the right, but the truth is that they were always in this same place.
Ok but that has nothing to do with what me and Sk8 were talking about. Plus I dont know how you can say they have always been in the same place, when they were the ones electing Republicans in the first place. And what exactly is it that conservatives want delivered?
I'm saying the same thing that SK8 was saying. You just don't attempt to listen and understand.
Dude, we were talking about Republicans and Democrats working together, or not. You then started in on conservatives and from what I gather, trying to distinguish Republicans from conservatives, which has nothing to do with Democrats. So no, were not talking about the same thing. And I have asked you several questions and made points to help me understand, that you tend to avoid.
Well I asked what it is that conservatives are wanting, since you kept pushing that, and you didnt answer. I also made the point about the Republican voters being in the same place, which was your claim, when in reality most of the party who supported Bush, Romney, McCain, also supported Trump (with some exceptions). And my point in saying that, is that if they are in the same place then why were the same people who used to support those guys, all of a sudden turning them into their enemy? Something has obviously changed.
OK. Conservatives bought into the idea that electability is more important than values, so they would go with an "electable" Republican in the hopes that they were more than just rhetoric. They tolerated it when we just had a slow shift to the left. When the Overton window was moved by the left, conservatives realized that we aren't looking at a slow shift to the left, it's happening quickly. At that point, concessionists like Romney and McCain were called out for talking a big game but never moving the football to the right. Like I said to begin with: what's the biggest conservative policy victory in the last 20 years?
first off the Democratic party has not moved to the left and that goes back to Clinton who was a moderate at best, but arguably even right of center. This is the party of FDR, pro unions, etc, that assisted with cutting welfare, hardly a move to the left. Not to mention NAFTA, which I know a lot of Republicans don't like, but it is technically a conservative position that allows businesses to do business how they see fit, even if that means across the boarder. But no, Obama was not "left" either. Biden might end up being the most "left" of any of them, but we will see how that pans out.
But you are still avoiding my question of what it is that conservatives are wanting. You are telling me why they dont like people, even though they supported those types of people since probably the Reagan administration at least, but you arent telling me exactly what it is they are wanting.
It is hard to answer that because I dont know what you consider to be conservative, which is why I am asking what it is you are saying conservatives want. I could certainly throw out numerous tax cuts, letting the AR ban expire, etc, plus obviously other things passed by Bush that I am sure you would argue arent conservative. So until you give me some type of indication of what you consider conservative, then that is a hard question to answer.
Clearly you have no interest in having a rational discussion here if you think the democrat party hasn't moved to the left since FDR.
Conservatives want low taxes, low regulation, a balanced budget, a strong 2nd amendment, restrictions on abortions that only exempt a very few, a strong dollar, massive cuts in welfare, free market fundamentals with no monetary manipulation, federalism, protection of the 1st amendment, personal liberty, no bailouts, a strong military that only acts when necessary, no minimum wage, traditional family structure. Is that enough?
They havent and it isnt debatable if you know anything about policy, but regardless, we will just agree to disagree.
Sure that is enough, though some of it is just empty platitudes and some of it I would argue arent what people are looking for, but regardless. Trump didnt accomplish most of that either, and didnt even really try to, so why is he still the defacto leader of the party? Why didnt he and the Republican house and senate balance the budget? Push to eliminate min. wage? Tradional family structure (whatever that even means form a legislative stand point)? So should conservatives consider Trump a failure? ANd if so, then why does he still have so much support within the party? If not, then why not?
I have no idea why anybody that is a conservative still supports Trump. The GOP in general has failed conservatives for decades, which is why it might look like the party has moved to the right but it's just a matter of the party refusing to elect and support people that don't stand for their values anymore.
But they do, so your whole point about conservatives moving away from the GOP leaders of the past makes no sense, since Trump accomplished very few if any of the things you say conservatives want, yet he still has massive support.
Maybe they do stand for their values. At some point you cant blame it politicians, you have to blame it on voters, but if the voters keep voting for the same types of candidates for decades, then I dont think you can say they dont stand for their values. Maybe you are just wrong about what the average GOP voters actually value.
Trump did better than I expected, I didn't vote for him in Primary. He is not and was not a true conservative, though he leans to the right.
Didnt say that. I was responding to your list of things you say conservatives care about, that Trump didnt remotely accomplish, yet he still has massive support. I do think they have moved to the right, certainly socially, they obviously arent fiscally conservative. What I am saying, is that I think you might be out of touch with what people want.
Well if you are saying that the GOP is embracing Trump, they most definitely have not moved to the right because Trump was anything but a conservative.
Are you denying they are embracing Trump? Cheney is about to get removed from her post for no other reason than she criticizes Trump.
He was not fiscally conservative, at least with spending, but again, it depends on how you define conservative, because he was certainly conservative in a lot of areas that people these days associate with conservatives. Anti- regulation, his views on guns, roling back some LGBT protections, etc etc.
lol @ cubs trying to debate with cult members,
You aren't going to change their minds with facts. If they are so goddamn painfully stupid they still support today's GOP, facts don't matter to them.
You aren't going to change their minds with facts. If they are so goddamn painfully stupid they still support today's GOP, facts don't matter to them.
I think there are a few things going on here: Trumps messages of America 1st and drain the swamp were very effective in coalescing the base. The base wants a united front, and when they see people like Cheney, Romney, or even Sasse who is a legitimate conservative, it's viewed as a crack in the dam. They see how effective the democrat party is at moving their agenda forward and think the GOP should be the same way, so pragmatism is seen as treachery.
It really isn't that they love Trump, they just like the idea of taking back control of politics and Trump was the proverbial bull in a China shop.
Well good thing they elected the whose only legislative accomplishment was the tax cut that's about to get reversed.
GOP registrations have plummeted post 1/6-insurrection. It's no surprise that the gameplan at the state level has been to minimize the electorate. Republican policies just aren't popular.
Hope it was worth electing the guy that may kill the GOP's chances at national success for a long time. At least he was funny.
There are a lot of people like me that think Trump is a jackass and would like to have someone else but end up defending the guy because of the many, many times that his words have been taken out of context and used to misrepresent what was actually said. It rings too close to being subjected to the slurs Ninja puts out in almost every substantive conversation with Democrats we've all endured over the last 16 years or so. So many Republicans just took that and never stood up for themselves or anyone else (McCain, Romney, Bush, etc.). The lack of backbone only served to make the demagoguery acceptable. We finally got fed up with it and Trump happened.
This at least gives me some hope for our democracy. Luckily the small minority of cult members still supporting trump are dying off.
OH, so the POTUS election WASN'T stolen from him???!?
Lack of backbone? You mean like Liz Cheney calling Trump on his bullshit??? Well, by golly, we'd better CANCEL her, right guys?*
I think Cheney should be removed because she has no concept of how to lead Republicans in today’s environment. I could care less about her support of Trump or not.
But this is Republican internal stuff so why do you care? Pay attention to you own cancel mobs and leave our internals to us.
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