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Interesting op/ed from the WSJ today

KnighttimeJoe

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Take it down, IDGAF, but Trigreek gets away with posting entire articles...

Is the Coronavirus as Deadly as They Say?
Current estimates about the Covid-19 fatality rate may be too high by orders of magnitude.
By
Eran Bendavid and
Jay Bhattacharya
March 24, 2020 6:21 pm ET
If it’s true that the novel coronavirus would kill millions without shelter-in-place orders and quarantines, then the extraordinary measures being carried out in cities and states around the country are surely justified. But there’s little evidence to confirm that premise—and projections of the death toll could plausibly be orders of magnitude too high.

Fear of Covid-19 is based on its high estimated case fatality rate—2% to 4% of people with confirmed Covid-19 have died, according to the World Health Organization and others. So if 100 million Americans ultimately get the disease, two million to four million could die. We believe that estimate is deeply flawed. The true fatality rate is the portion of those infected who die, not the deaths from identified positive cases.
The latter rate is misleading because of selection bias in testing. The degree of bias is uncertain because available data are limited. But it could make the difference between an epidemic that kills 20,000 and one that kills two million. If the number of actual infections is much larger than the number of cases—orders of magnitude larger—then the true fatality rate is much lower as well. That’s not only plausible but likely based on what we know so far.

Population samples from China, Italy, Iceland and the U.S. provide relevant evidence. On or around Jan. 31, countries sent planes to evacuate citizens from Wuhan, China. When those planes landed, the passengers were tested for Covid-19 and quarantined. After 14 days, the percentage who tested positive was 0.9%. If this was the prevalence in the greater Wuhan area on Jan. 31, then, with a population of about 20 million, greater Wuhan had 178,000 infections, about 30-fold more than the number of reported cases. The fatality rate, then, would be at least 10-fold lower than estimates based on reported cases.

Next, the northeastern Italian town of Vò, near the provincial capital of Padua. On March 6, all 3,300 people of Vò were tested, and 90 were positive, a prevalence of 2.7%. Applying that prevalence to the whole province (population 955,000), which had 198 reported cases, suggests there were actually 26,000 infections at that time. That’s more than 130-fold the number of actual reported cases. Since Italy’s case fatality rate of 8% is estimated using the confirmed cases, the real fatality rate could in fact be closer to 0.06%.

In Iceland, deCode Genetics is working with the government to perform widespread testing. In a sample of nearly 2,000 entirely asymptomatic people, researchers estimated disease prevalence of just over 1%. Iceland’s first case was reported on Feb. 28, weeks behind the U.S. It’s plausible that the proportion of the U.S. population that has been infected is double, triple or even 10 times as high as the estimates from Iceland. That also implies a dramatically lower fatality rate.

The best (albeit very weak) evidence in the U.S. comes from the National Basketball Association. Between March 11 and 19, a substantial number of NBA players and teams received testing. By March 19, 10 out of 450 rostered players were positive. Since not everyone was tested, that represents a lower bound on the prevalence of 2.2%. The NBA isn’t a representative population, and contact among players might have facilitated transmission. But if we extend that lower-bound assumption to cities with NBA teams (population 45 million), we get at least 990,000 infections in the U.S. The number of cases reported on March 19 in the U.S. was 13,677, more than 72-fold lower. These numbers imply a fatality rate from Covid-19 orders of magnitude smaller than it appears.

How can we reconcile these estimates with the epidemiological models? First, the test used to identify cases doesn’t catch people who were infected and recovered. Second, testing rates were woefully low for a long time and typically reserved for the severely ill. Together, these facts imply that the confirmed cases are likely orders of magnitude less than the true number of infections. Epidemiological modelers haven’t adequately adapted their estimates to account for these factors.

The epidemic started in China sometime in November or December. The first confirmed U.S. cases included a person who traveled from Wuhan on Jan. 15, and it is likely that the virus entered before that: Tens of thousands of people traveled from Wuhan to the U.S. in December. Existing evidence suggests that the virus is highly transmissible and that the number of infections doubles roughly every three days. An epidemic seed on Jan. 1 implies that by March 9 about six million people in the U.S. would have been infected. As of March 23, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there were 499 Covid-19 deaths in the U.S. If our surmise of six million cases is accurate, that’s a mortality rate of 0.01%, assuming a two week lag between infection and death. This is one-tenth of the flu mortality rate of 0.1%. Such a low death rate would be cause for optimism.

This does not make Covid-19 a nonissue. The daily reports from Italy and across the U.S. show real struggles and overwhelmed health systems. But a 20,000- or 40,000-death epidemic is a far less severe problem than one that kills two million. Given the enormous consequences of decisions around Covid-19 response, getting clear data to guide decisions now is critical. We don’t know the true infection rate in the U.S. Antibody testing of representative samples to measure disease prevalence (including the recovered) is crucial. Nearly every day a new lab gets approval for antibody testing, so population testing using this technology is now feasible.

If we’re right about the limited scale of the epidemic, then measures focused on older populations and hospitals are sensible. Elective procedures will need to be rescheduled. Hospital resources will need to be reallocated to care for critically ill patients. Triage will need to improve. And policy makers will need to focus on reducing risks for older adults and people with underlying medical conditions.

A universal quarantine may not be worth the costs it imposes on the economy, community and individual mental and physical health. We should undertake immediate steps to evaluate the empirical basis of the current lockdowns.

Dr. Bendavid and Dr. Bhattacharya are professors of medicine at Stanford. Neeraj Sood contributed to this article.
 
Interesting article, but taking NBA players (literally the top .01% of healthiest Americans) and extrapolating that out seems flawed.

Also my biggest fear is the healthcare system getting overwhelmed. With such a limited number of ventilators and ICU space, normally healthy people are dying.
 
QUOTE="NinjaKnight, post: 1843118, member: 950"]Interesting article, but taking NBA players (literally the top .01% of healthiest Americans) and extrapolating that out seems flawed.

Also my biggest fear is the healthcare system getting overwhelmed. With such a limited number of ventilators and ICU space, normally healthy people are dying.[/QUOTE]

No doubt on the NBA players.
 
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This is more or less what the doctors and virologists on Dr Radio have been saying for 2 weeks. And now you have doctors out of Stanford saying the same thing.
 
The total number of Corona virus cases are way underestimated so the death till number % looks worse. In Atlanta they aren't even bothering to test healthy younger folks with Corona symptoms. They are sending them home to self isolate and they will be fine.

Basically getting samples of the worst infected.
 
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This is more or less what the doctors and virologists on Dr Radio have been saying for 2 weeks. And now you have doctors out of Stanford saying the same thing.
People have been saying this for weeks. Short of testing everybody every day, there is no way of getting an accurate representation of how deadly this virus actually is.
 
I'm just curious when the resident doctors on this board will migrate over here to comment, given they're at total disagreement with what these Stanford doctors just asserted.
 
I'm just curious when the resident doctors on this board will migrate over here to comment, given they're at total disagreement with what these Stanford doctors just asserted.

Honestly nobody is stopping anyone from self quarantine. In a few weeks open things open that don't require close contact. The older folks should be under a mandatory quarantine. If a beta males need to quarantine, let them do it. Problem solved
 
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It’s interesting, but actual boots on the ground in hospitals in Italy and New York after this has taken hold indicate it is a big problem. That seem like the most reliable source. While the fatality rate is not exact at this point, it is generally accepted that if there aren’t sufficient resources to properly care for all incoming patients, then the number will be higher than it would be if everyone could be afforded exceptional care.
 
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Also how does this article marry a 1.4% fatality rate on a cruise ship where every passenger was tested and a 1.4% fatality rate in South Korea with the proposed estimate of .01%? Literally 1/140 of the actual rate observed in communities where we have a reasonable expectation of comprehensive testing.
 
People have been saying this for weeks. Short of testing everybody every day, there is no way of getting an accurate representation of how deadly this virus actually is.

Well, we'll know for sure once everyone's dead or isn't.
 
Even if you make the wild assumption that the roughly 3000 people aboard the diamond princess who didn’t test positive for coronavirus were unknowingly previously infected and recovered and therefore immune, the fact remains that 10 out of 3600 passengers and crew on the ship died. If the actual fatality rate was .01% and you assumed that every single person aboard was infected you would have to run 3 such cruises to expect just a single death.
 
More people will die from an overwhelmed healthcare system than the virus.

It takes very little to fill up hospitals.

Get into a car accident in a C19 area and your odds of survival are lower.

Have a heart attack there and your odds of survival are lower.

The problems this presents are multifaceted. Protecting the healthcare system is the number one issue in my opinion.
 
More people will die from an overwhelmed healthcare system than the virus.

It takes very little to fill up hospitals.

Get into a car accident in a C19 area and your odds of survival are lower.

Have a heart attack there and your odds of survival are lower.

The problems this presents are multifaceted. Protecting the healthcare system is the number one issue in my opinion.

Now you're worried about saving lives. Interesting... Democrats are obsessed with killing babies. Now that it might run into their personal space...oh no!
 
I honestly thought the “abortions kill X” comments wouldn’t be thrown out until it surpassed cancer and heart disease. You are breaking it out early.
 
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Even if you make the wild assumption that the roughly 3000 people aboard the diamond princess who didn’t test positive for coronavirus were unknowingly previously infected and recovered and therefore immune, the fact remains that 10 out of 3600 passengers and crew on the ship died. If the actual fatality rate was .01% and you assumed that every single person aboard was infected you would have to run 3 such cruises to expect just a single death.

The ship is a bad example since it's a fairly small number of people. A small sample size.

This is more relevant from their piece:

Population samples from China, Italy, Iceland and the U.S. provide relevant evidence. On or around Jan. 31, countries sent planes to evacuate citizens from Wuhan, China. When those planes landed, the passengers were tested for Covid-19 and quarantined. After 14 days, the percentage who tested positive was 0.9%. If this was the prevalence in the greater Wuhan area on Jan. 31, then, with a population of about 20 million, greater Wuhan had 178,000 infections, about 30-fold more than the number of reported cases. The fatality rate, then, would be at least 10-fold lower than estimates based on reported cases.

What they're saying, correctly, is that the actual confirmed numbers are probably a fraction of the actual underlying cases in any particular populace that aren't and will never be captured. And that drastically changes the actual assumed death rate.

And this is where this Op Ed runs into the new Oxford Study and their hypothesis: if you have the overwhelming majority of people being infected totally asymptomatically, with a virus that is now confirmed to not mutating, then you have a large scale basis of immunity and the people who are suffering/dying right now *could* be the extent of the "worst to come", which drastically reduces the mortality rate if you're dividing it into an "actual" assumed positive number that is 10-30 times larger than the test confirmed number.

That is where these Doctors from Stanford are drawing the hypothesis that 1) the real mortality rate is nowhere near what we think today and 2) the number of deaths will not reach what the Imperial College models suggested.
 
I honestly thought the “abortions kill X” comments wouldn’t be thrown out until it surpassed cancer and heart disease. You are breaking it out early.

Point stands... now people are worrying about themselves and survival. All cool when it isn't them.
 
This is a synopsis of the new Oxford University modeling that will soon be tested against sample testing.

According to the modeling, the coronavirus arrived in mid-January at the latest, and spread undetected for over a month before the first cases were confirmed. Based on a susceptibility-infected-recovery model — a commonly used estimate in epidemiology — with data from case and death reports in the U.K. and Italy, the researchers determined that the initial “herd immunity” strategy of the U.K. government could have been sound. “I am surprised that there has been such unqualified acceptance of the Imperial model,” said lead researcher Sunetra Gupta, referring to an academic report predicting that up to 250,000 could be killed if the government maintained its plan to suppress the virus “but not get rid of it completely,” as the country’s chief scientific adviser put it. As of Monday, 87 people in the United Kingdom had died from the coronavirus; out of a total of 90,436 tests, 8,077 were positive.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/oxford-study-coronavirus-may-have-infected-half-of-u-k.html
 
Point stands... now people are worrying about themselves and survival. All cool when it isn't them.
I'm in my early 30s. My wife had been cleared as no additional heightened risk. I work in an essential industry. I have no stock market exposure. I am the least at risk by this of anyone you'll probably talk to. I don't need any loans or payouts or anything. I'm going to come out ahead.

I still care about those who will die needlessly because we can't get dumb ****ing chuds to ever listen to a god damn scientist on any topic.
 
The ship is a bad example since it's a fairly small number of people. A small sample size.

This is more relevant from their piece:

Population samples from China, Italy, Iceland and the U.S. provide relevant evidence. On or around Jan. 31, countries sent planes to evacuate citizens from Wuhan, China. When those planes landed, the passengers were tested for Covid-19 and quarantined. After 14 days, the percentage who tested positive was 0.9%. If this was the prevalence in the greater Wuhan area on Jan. 31, then, with a population of about 20 million, greater Wuhan had 178,000 infections, about 30-fold more than the number of reported cases. The fatality rate, then, would be at least 10-fold lower than estimates based on reported cases.

What they're saying, correctly, is that the actual confirmed numbers are probably a fraction of the actual underlying cases in any particular populace that aren't and will never be captured. And that drastically changes the actual assumed death rate.

And this is where this Op Ed runs into the new Oxford Study and their hypothesis: if you have the overwhelming majority of people being infected totally asymptomatically, with a virus that is now confirmed to not mutating, then you have a large scale basis of immunity and the people who are suffering/dying right now *could* be the extent of the "worst to come", which drastically reduces the mortality rate if you're dividing it into an "actual" assumed positive number that is 10-30 times larger than the test confirmed number.

That is where these Doctors from Stanford are drawing the hypothesis that 1) the real mortality rate is nowhere near what we think today and 2) the number of deaths will not reach what the Imperial College models suggested.
Small sample size (3600 in this case) doesn’t account for a rate 140 times what is being proposed in the article. It just doesn’t jive with reality. 6000 out of 10 million from just one region of Italy have died already and growing daily. That on its own is a fatality rate of .006%. Or given a .01% mortality, it’s 60% of what you would expect if the total population was infected and all their cases had resolved recovered or died already.
 
I mean, two prominent scientists penned the op/ed that I started this thread with?

I was literally about to write this. The dude has been arguing 100% to the contrary in the other thread, and then tip toes around the contents of this thread - written by 2 Stanford PHDs - that refute alot of what he was saying.

He then declares everyone but him doesn't listen to scientists.
 
Small sample size (3600 in this case) doesn’t account for a rate 140 times what is being proposed in the article. It just doesn’t jive with reality. 6000 out of 10 million from just one region of Italy have died already and growing daily. That on its own is a fatality rate of .006%. Or given a .01% mortality, it’s 60% of what you would expect if the total population was infected and all their cases had resolved recovered or died already.

One of the interesting things Fauci said the other day at one of Trump's pressers was that the average age of someone in Italy who gets infected and dies of Corona is their mid-80s.
 
One of the interesting things Fauci said the other day at one of Trump's pressers was that the average age of someone in Italy who gets infected and dies of Corona is their mid-80s.

Yes. And then there's articles like this, released today, about a country that neighbors Italy and has a far different situation. I don't know why we're so obsessed with only using Italy as a benchmarker when there are other European nations more culturally similar to the US that are faring differently.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/why-are-so-few-germans-dying-coronavirus-experts-wonder-n1168361
 
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The other thing is given the 19,552 deaths worldwide as I type this, that would mean 195,552,000 infected given a .01% mortality rate. That’s that many infected 2 weeks ago. The only way to get there with an R0 of around 2 would mean patient 0 would have been in early September last year. It also would imply that by now there are close to a billion infected. The other option is it has an R0 of 4 or something which would put patient 0 in early December, but this would be a worse scenario as the acceleration of patients needing critical care would be much greater. Luckily the death rate increase week to week (which should track similarly to total case rate) points more to an R0 of 2.
 
I mean, two prominent scientists penned the op/ed that I started this thread with?
Yes I'm not doubting the op-ed. It's worth looking into. However the CDC and WHO have thousands of disease professionals. They say stay at home is only cure.

Chuds ignore them and listen to Trump say "back to work by Easter!"
 
Once more than .01% of Italy’s population dies from coronavirus, can we then conclude the mortality is greater than .01%?
 
The other thing is given the 19,552 deaths worldwide as I type this, that would mean 195,552,000 infected given a .01% mortality rate. That’s that many infected 2 weeks ago. The only way to get there with an R0 of around 2 would mean patient 0 would have been in early September last year. It also would imply that by now there are close to a billion infected. The other option is it has an R0 of 4 or something which would put patient 0 in early December, but this would be a worse scenario as the acceleration of patients needing critical care would be much greater. Luckily the death rate increase week to week (which should track similarly to total case rate) points more to an R0 of 2.
Yeah I mean it's not .01%

The op-ed doesn't seem to mention the lag time of infection to symptoms to death. We have 60k infected in America right now. Many of them are already dead. If we stopped all infections right now we could get a better idea of the death rate. The problem is the information is far too noisy to make an accurate call on death rate. We don't know if countries are reporting deaths accurately. We don't have a good number on who is sick. We don't know if people got sick without knowing it.

You know what would have helped get more info? Testing.
 
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The other thing is given the 19,552 deaths worldwide as I type this, that would mean 195,552,000 infected given a .01% mortality rate. That’s that many infected 2 weeks ago. The only way to get there with an R0 of around 2 would mean patient 0 would have been in early September last year. It also would imply that by now there are close to a billion infected. The other option is it has an R0 of 4 or something which would put patient 0 in early December, but this would be a worse scenario as the acceleration of patients needing critical care would be much greater. Luckily the death rate increase week to week (which should track similarly to total case rate) points more to an R0 of 2.

The unknown factor is when this began. We cant pinpoint patient 0 and some estimates take this back to early october of last year. It's very possible that it's been around for months prior to that and was misdiagnosed because it wasnt a known quantity.
 
Yeah I mean it's not .01%

The op-ed doesn't seem to mention the lag time of infection to symptoms to death. We have 60k infected in America right now. Many of them are already dead. If we stopped all infections right now we could get a better idea of the death rate. The problem is the information is far too noisy to make an accurate call on death rate. We don't know if countries are reporting deaths accurately. We don't have a good number on who is sick. We don't know if people got sick without knowing it.

You know what would have helped get more info? Testing.

What do you define as "many of them are dead?" As of me posting this, we have 886 deaths and 63,098 known cases. That's .014%. Yes, it is absolutely tragic to see 886 needless deaths. I am not arguing that.

I agree with the testing bit, however. That's where Germany and S. Korea were and are way ahead.
 
Isn’t there the antibody test available now? It seems almost trivial to take say 1000 random people and test them for antibodies. And that would almost definitively prove or disprove this hypothesis presented here. Maybe someone should get on that before making drastic decisions like complete lockdown or “opening up the economy”. I’m quite confident what the results would be. I mean if this killed 30 people in a single nursing home and it has already infected nearly everyone in the population, why aren’t there mass deaths going on in literally every one of the 16k nursing homes? It just so happens that the one nursing home in Washington won the lottery...30 times in a row?
 
What do you define as "many of them are dead?" As of me posting this, we have 886 deaths and 63,098 known cases. That's .014%. Yes, it is absolutely tragic to see 886 needless deaths. I am not arguing that.

I agree with the testing bit, however. That's where Germany and S. Korea were and are way ahead.
Many of them are dead but they just haven't died yet. It takes time to die. We are adding cases so fast that the death total will always look like a tiny fraction because the majority of all the cases we add will be new until we plateau. The death number in 2 weeks will be indicative of the current confirmed cases. And by that time we'll have hundreds of thousands of confirmed cases.
 
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Once more than .01% of Italy’s population dies from coronavirus, can we then conclude the mortality is greater than .01%?

Why are you so laser focused on only Italy? This is a virus that literally exists in every corner of the world now. Why then would anyone try to draw major conclusions based upon what we think is occurring in one single country?
 
Many of them are dead but they just haven't died yet. It takes time to die. We are adding cases so fast that the death total will always look like a tiny fraction because the majority of all the cases we add will be new until we plateau. The death number in 2 weeks will be indicative of the current confirmed cases. And by that time we'll have hundreds of thousands of confirmed cases.

And we'll have even more, untold numbers more, of actual cases that will never be confirmed by test.

And then the virus will eventually run into the issue of a silent understated herd immunity, and a diminished base of high risk people to attack.
 
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