Nothing on Jr.'s Emails?
- Thread starter bqknight
- Start date
Pretty much. He released the emails because the NYTs supposedly had them and asked for comment. He then went ahead and released them before they did.
Not sure how you spin this one...but I'm sure they will and people will eat it up. Something, something about leakers.
The spin is that the meeting provided no substance and that DJTJr, Kushner, and Manafort didn't actually get any info, and that DJTSr had no knowledge of the meeting. So there's no actual collusion. Just an attempt. Allegedly.
Russia's spin is that the lawyer doesn't work for the government and her spin is that she never claimed to have HRC info.
There are at least two lies being told here.
Even if there was nothing eventually provided, it pretty much confirms that Trump Jr. and Kushner/Manafort (at the minimum) knew the Russian's were trying to assist Trump Sr. and they had no issue taking info from someone, who in these emails was said to be connected to the Russian Government, to help their campaign.
*shrug*
TBH I don't know if any campaign would have actually done that. Politics is a dirty, dirty game.
Everyone knew that. It was pretty obvious with Wikileaks.
Either way there is nothing here again. If people can't meet with foreign nationals during elections there are thousands of people that need to be investigated.
No argument against what I said? What is wrong with my statement? What do you disagree with? What are your counter points?
My counter points are what I wrote a few messages before yours. This email chain is acknowledgment that the Trump team knew Russia was trying to help them (something they have denied many times), not only that but that members of the Trump team was willing to accept help from Russian's connected with their government (whether she ended up being one or not, she was propositioned as one).
Trump Jr. has also changed his story each time something new comes out.
Look, I am sure politicians scheme with foreigners more than we probably know but as you guys have tried to say many times, it doesn't make it illegal.
Everyone knew, yet Trump and Putin continued to deny, deny, deny.
As for the second statement, I agree, this is a big "so what?" There's not really anything that's going to happen to Trump as a result. There's literally zero chance that articles of impeachment pass a GOP majority House and Senate. About the only thing that could happen is if anyone is currently on staff, they could be fired. But that's about it.
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if it was from an American source that is one thing, not a foreign adversary that our Government has Sanctions against
Pffftt...it's easy to be sanctimonious after the fact, but when a campaign is desperate (on either side), they'll do just about anything.
He would be impeached if there was actual evidence of collusion and I'd support it. There is none though, so you're correct he won't be impeached, he wouldn't be if the Dems controlled congress.
The crazy thing is this story seems like a drop in the bucket.....after one of the most crazy election cycles we've seen, this seems like non news which is shocking.
NYT will run their stories....Fox News will run their counter stories....Trump will tweet something, we'll all react, two days later we'll move on.
NYT will run their stories....Fox News will run their counter stories....Trump will tweet something, we'll all react, two days later we'll move on.
Agreed, btw. I do not think anything will actually come from this. There could be a photo of Trump sucking Putin's D and I'm not sure something would come from it.
I wonder if the people UP IN ARMS! about this give a shit that the DNC secretly did exactly the same thing, only working with the Ukrainians, who were avowed in their efforts to assure that Trump did not win? No? That's what I thought. An article from January:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446
As of now we have this email chain proving that Jr went to this meeting interested in what this lady had to say. There is actually harder proof that the DNC went to the Ukrainians to actually, truly collude to find stuff to sink Trump with.
The biggest difference here is that the DNC did things quietly and properly covert while the Trump team was run by political amateurs who took this meeting themselves. The DNC knew better and sent lackies to work with Ukraine that couldn't trace back to HRC or DWS.
Both sides took damaging info from ANYWHERE if it was good enough. This has been going on for, oh, say 85 years.
Jr was a moron for doing this meeting but it's also not collusion. Collusion requires that a party request another party to intervene on their behalf in exchange for something after the request is fulfilled. None of that exists here.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446
As of now we have this email chain proving that Jr went to this meeting interested in what this lady had to say. There is actually harder proof that the DNC went to the Ukrainians to actually, truly collude to find stuff to sink Trump with.
The biggest difference here is that the DNC did things quietly and properly covert while the Trump team was run by political amateurs who took this meeting themselves. The DNC knew better and sent lackies to work with Ukraine that couldn't trace back to HRC or DWS.
Both sides took damaging info from ANYWHERE if it was good enough. This has been going on for, oh, say 85 years.
Jr was a moron for doing this meeting but it's also not collusion. Collusion requires that a party request another party to intervene on their behalf in exchange for something after the request is fulfilled. None of that exists here.
He jumped off quietly a little while ago. He's already started his own PAC and has been silently wining and dining big Repub donors at offsite locations for the VP. He knows this is a sinking ship and is already thinking about his political future.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/mike-pence-pac-president-trump-2017-5
I'm pretty sure the Ukraine is not an avowed enemy of the US and doesn't have economic sanctions imposed on it by the US. But anyway...it's not collusion, just seeking collusion, which may or may not be an actual treasonous act.
Why does that matter? Are you really suggesting that it's OK for an "ally" to coordinate with a certain party, to sabotage a feely elected candidate from the other party, simply because that "ally" is not under sanctions? That's really your stance?
Let me guess- you'd have an absolute shitfit if the Israelis were caught helping the RNC to sink a left winger.
Wasn't it just 4 years ago that Obama was whispering into Medved's ear "just give me time, then we can do whatever we want!". Was Russia our "enemy" then too? Or did they only become our enemy once it furthered the narrative about Trump? I get confused when left wingers need to insist that Russia is our mortal enemy or merely a "regional power" that we need to "reset" with.
No, that's not my stance. Ally or not, foreign governments shouldn't be interfering in our elections. I'm simply pointing out that one candidate chose to ally himself with, as the article you linked put it, "America’s leading foreign adversary" rather than an ally. Romney was right in 2012 to call Russia an enemy. Obama was wrong to make the "80's Foreign Policy" quip. They've really never stopped being our enemy since 1945.
As I said before, politics is a dirty, dirty game. Both sides crawl in the mud. It doesn't make it less wrong that one side did it vs the other.
You also seem to miss a critical piece here- as far as we know, this Russian lawyer approached Jr. She came seeking him.
In the DNC case, the Politico investigation suggests that they went seeking Ukrainian help (and got it).
That's a major nuance. Campaigns are dirty and they'll take dirt from anywhere or any source if it comes to them. It's quite another though sending out a crack squad to approach a foreign government to solicit dirt, as the DNC did in Ukraine.
Exit question: if HRC had won, would we even be hearing a peep about this Ukrainian and DNC cooperation? Answer: no.
So it is ok because "they did it too"? Nice answer. Campaign manager, candidate's son and son-in-law vs consultant: same thing
BTW, it looks like they probably heard about those meetings happening:
"A Ukrainian-American operative who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee met with top officials in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in an effort to expose ties between Trump, top campaign aide Paul Manafort and Russia, according to people with direct knowledge of the situation."
Putin is laughing in our face right now. They asked for the meeting because they knew the Trump's were stupid enough to take it. Then they meddled in the election on his behalf to weaken our democracy and to try and get a more pro-Russian candidate. Now that they realize no sanctions are going to be lifted and the truth is getting out, they're tossing Trump aside just to further erode trust in our elections and to further weaken our democracy.
Why else is the Russian lawyer doing American tv interviews basically blasting Trump Jr. There is no way in hell anyone does that that close to the Kremlin unless directed by Putin. Trump played into their trap and they're literally twisting the knife in his back and getting exactly what they wanted all along- an American government in chaos.
They only thing that weakens our Democracy is people like you and the Dems faux raging about every stupid little thing. There is no evidence of collusion. They did not influence the election. They tried to but they did not have an impact.
Wait- you just said that no sanctions were being rolled back and the Russians were pissed. Why then would Putin be laughing?
And please spare me about "weakening our Democracy". The entire extent of their "hacking" was getting a moron like Podesta to fall for a phishing scam, and releasing a bunch of emails that no one generally gave a shit about. Certainly 0 people who were voting for HRC suddenly changed their mind when they learned that Podesta was into witchcraft.
The only real victory for Putin here is that the Democrats and media have managed to hype him into an all powerful super villain that is capable of anything. He must absolutely love hearing this repeated over and over.
LOL. I never said there was evidence of collusion. But the Russians did meddle in the election and we have no idea how many votes were cast on the basis of believing fake information from Russia's bot and propaganda campaign. They're smart and and they knew their was a realm of possible influence in our tribal political climate. They used our lax social media rules about trolls/bots to their advantage. That's not faux raging. That's the truth and it's agreed upon by all 17 US Intelligence agencies. They did it to benefit Trump because he is a political novice and was spouting pro-Russian support about weakening sanctions against Russia on the campaign trail.
At the worst they knew they would weaken trust in our elections and democratic safeguards. A weak America is good for Russia. Putin knew what he was doing. Sorry if the truth hurts.
If by "they" you mean one person, Alexandra Chalupa, then yes. It was not really a DNC leadership-directed operation, but rather a person with Ukranian ties who worked for the DNC trying to make use of her position to get Ukranian staff to do research on Paul Manafort, which ended up being material to exposing Paul Manafort's connections to the Russian political regime. The Russian meddling had more to do with hacking (aka stealing) information from the Dems, that's a major nuance as well. It's one thing to gather information on an opponent from research. It's quite another to steal information and broadcast it to the world.
I think it's still too soon to tell if the Russia involvement is truly top-down as suggested, but it's pretty obvious that there was some (at least attempted) collusion.
I just explained it. Best case scenario for Russia:sanctions were lifted. Worst case: the American people lose faith in our elected leaders, elections, and democratic safegauards. Why is that so hard to believe? Either way America is weakened on a global scale which is good for Russia.
Again, it didn't weaken us. The only thing that weakens us is the continued faux raging over it, that instills doubt in the election process. If there is evidence that votes were changed or Trump colluded then by all means, rage away, but until then this massive propaganda campaign being put up by never Trumpers and the left is the only thing hurting faith in our democracy and election process.
Damn. When the National Review agrees with something anti-GOP, it's remarkable.
"...we should have zero confidence that we know all or even most material facts. We should have zero confidence that Trump’s frustration is entirely due to his feeling like an innocent man caught in the crosshairs of crazed conspiracy theorists. It now appears that his son, son-in-law, and campaign chair met with a lawyer who they were told was part of an official Russian government effort to impact the presidential election. The Russian investigation isn’t a witch hunt anymore, if it ever was. It’s a national necessity."
LOL
This tells me how much you keep up with things. NRO has been the leading Never Trumper from Day 1.
For God's sakes, in the primary they devoted an entire issue to it:
