She Didn’t Deserve To Die

[sk8knight]

She was just performing a simple traffic stop. Remember the name Ella French. Chicago had a good person taken from them by evil murderous fiends. We need real change; change from a culture where violence is a way of life.

‘God took the wrong kid.’ Brother of slain officer Ella French speaks about younger sister; second cop fighting for his life

One Chicago police officer was killed and another was critically wounded during an exchange of gunfire with at least one suspect during a traffic stop Saturday night in the West Englewood neighborh…

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[DaShuckster]

We need real change; change from a culture where GUN violence is a way of life.

FIFY. We average 176 police officer deaths in the line of duty a year.

 

[sk8knight]

FIFY. We average 176 police officer deaths in the line of duty a year.

Make the bad guns go away and no one will ever die again.

You’re an idiot.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

Make the bad guns go away and no one will ever die again.

You’re an idiot.

If you are having an honest discussion, yes if there was a mechanism to make the guns go away you would see very low rates of this type of violence in the country. Similar to…well…every other first world country. But the cat is out of the bag already here as the guns outnumber people. Bans are not and would not be effective. It’s a culture.

 

[DaShuckster]

Make the bad guns go away and no one will ever die again.

You’re an idiot.

Says the OP who waxes poetic about a fallen officer who is shot to death yet denies the role guns play in the violence he shakes his head about.

If you'd bothered to read your linked article, the proliferation of guns is highlighted as a big part of the problem.

 

[Boosted87]

Make the bad guns go away and no one will ever die again.

You’re an idiot.

Everyone accepts the risk posed by automobile accidents because it's obvious the net benefit they provide to society. But we all admit they pose a risk, particularly in the hands of irresponsible people. Doing away with automobiles would eliminate a major source of death, injury and pollution. But we'd universally agree that's a terrible idea.

So why is it hard to admit that eliminating guns from society would eliminate the problems associated with them? That doesn't mean you want to ban guns anymore than you want to ban cars. It just means you're honestly assessing the situation.

 

[DaShuckster]

We're supposed to believe the OP wants a 'change in the culture of violence' while he refuses to even acknowledge the role the proliferation of guns plays in that culture.

But I'm 'the idiot,' right sk8?

 

[sk8knight]

Everyone accepts the risk posed by automobile accidents because it's obvious the net benefit they provide to society. But we all admit they pose a risk, particularly in the hands of irresponsible people. Doing away with automobiles would eliminate a major source of death, injury and pollution. But we'd universally agree that's a terrible idea.

So why is it hard to admit that eliminating guns from society would eliminate the problems associated with them? That doesn't mean you want to ban guns anymore than you want to ban cars. It just means you're honestly assessing the situation.

Because (a) you’ll never eliminate the guns and (b) a gun is the ultimate equalizer of force. We tend to only focus on gun crimes and forget that women and elderly defend themselves and their households with guns in this country every single day.

So, in the vein of the oversimplified rhetoric that people like Shuckster prefer, why do you hate women and the elderly so much that you want to take away their only effective means of defending themselves?

 

[DaShuckster]

So, in the vein of the oversimplified rhetoric that people like Shuckster prefer, why do you hate women and the elderly so much that you want to take away their only effective means of defending themselves?

Oversimplified rhetoric? Who was the one who characterized my previous post as "make the bad guns go away"?

You started this thread decrying the loss of life due to a "culture of violence." Where'd you expect for this discussion to go?

Take a guess at what percentage of the cops who've been tragically killed in the line of duty over the years have died of gunshot wounds?

 

[sk8knight]

Oversimplified rhetoric? Who was the one who characterized my previous post as "make the bad guns go away"?

You started this thread decrying the loss of life due to a "culture of violence." Where'd you expect for this discussion to go?

Take a guess at what percentage of the cops who've been tragically killed in the line of duty over the years have died of gunshot wounds?

The guns aren’t causing people to want to commit murders. It’s the culture of violence where people want to commit murder that is making the guns a problem. Take away their motivation and willingness to kill and you won’t have a gun problem.

Answer my question: why do you want to take the most effective defense that women and the elderly have away from them?

 

[Boosted87]

Because (a) you’ll never eliminate the guns and (b) a gun is the ultimate equalizer of force. We tend to only focus on gun crimes and forget that women and elderly defend themselves and their households with guns in this country every single day.

So, in the vein of the oversimplified rhetoric that people like Shuckster prefer, why do you hate women and the elderly so much that you want to take away their only effective means of defending themselves?

Of course there are downsides. My question is why can't we admit to the obvious benefits? An honest answer is that right to bear arms is WORTH the costs. Just admit that there are costs.

 

[DaShuckster]

The guns aren’t causing people to want to commit murders. It’s the culture of violence where people want to commit murder that is making the guns a problem. Take away their motivation and willingness to kill and you won’t have a gun problem.

Take away mankind's proclivity towards violence and everything is hunky dory? Good grief, talk about oversimplified rhetoric.

 

[sk8knight]

Of course there are downsides. My question is why can't we admit to the obvious benefits? An honest answer is that right to bear arms is WORTH the costs. Just admit that there are costs.

Yes. There are costs. If we could wave a magic wand and make all the guns in the world disappear, there would be no gun killings. Of course, since more people are murdered with blunt force, I’m sure that we’ll see a spike in those murders. And other methods. And when we outlaw knives and swords and bottles and all the other things that are used to commit murder, then what? Will we finally address the cultural aspects of violence?

In the meantime, will you admit that you’re fine with the trade off more elderly people being robbed and killed and more women raped because they can’t effectively defend themselves?

 

[DaShuckster]

In the meantime, will you admit that you’re fine with the trade off more elderly people being robbed and killed and more women raped because they can’t effectively defend themselves?

This has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

You act like granny needs to be 'packin'' to protect herself. It may feel like it sometimes but this is not the middle ages.

 

[sk8knight]

This has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard.

You act like granny needs to be 'packin'' to protect herself. It may feel like it sometimes but this is not the middle ages.

I could find you 100,000 news reports about elderly people defending themselves with firearms. Likewise the articles about the rise in forcible felonies in places where guns are banned. It wouldn’t matter. You think about as deeply into any issue as what the Democrat issue du jour is and you dig your heels in. You’re no better than a parrot.

 

[fabknight]

My new Glock 42 should arrive any day now. I'm excited.

 

[DaShuckster]

I could find you 100,000 news reports about elderly people defending themselves with firearms.

LOL. Yeah, it’s a damn life and death crisis for grannies throughout this savage country!*. . .

This has been quite the thread. We’ve learned 100,000 grannies have defended themselves by packing heat and world peace would prevail if only we addressed the ‘cultural‘ aspect of violence (gee, what could sk8 be talking about?)

 

[UCFBS]

We're supposed to believe the OP wants a 'change in the culture of violence' while he refuses to even acknowledge the role the proliferation of guns plays in that culture.

So...

How do we stop the proliferation of guns to criminals in society when they aren't via retail or not even via private gun sales or via any other laws regarding legal acquisition or ownership?

You do realize this is why virtually every pro-gun control Democratic politician admits, privately including accidentally on hot mics, that no gun control laws on legal acquisition of ownership will work, correct?

So...

What gun control laws will work?
Please answer that.

This has got to be the stupidest argument I've ever heard.
You act like granny needs to be 'packin'' to protect herself. It may feel like it sometimes but this is not the middle ages.

Actually, ask a cop and the supermajority will tell you this is the case.

Unless you believe cops don't understand gun violence, day in and day out, very well compared to politicians.

 

[DaShuckster]

Unless you believe cops don't understand gun violence, day in and day out, very well compared to politicians.

Yeah boy, cops LOVE the proliferation of guns!!!

They really enjoy making routine traffic stops or domestic violence calls and wondering if someone is gonna shoot them.*

 

[sk8knight]

Yeah boy, cops LOVE the proliferation of guns!!!

They really enjoy making routine traffic stops or domestic violence calls and wondering if someone is gonna shoot them.*

You can make guns illegal with lifetime sentences and you will still have people murdering with guns in this country. You're arguing for something that is patently impossible as if it is possible and you're going to end up getting more innocent people hurt and killed while not even attempting to address the root problems with society.

 

[DaShuckster]

You can make guns illegal with lifetime sentences and you will still have people murdering with guns in this country. You're arguing for something that is patently impossible as if it is possible and you're going to end up getting more innocent people hurt and killed while not even attempting to address the root problems with society.

This is such bullshit. The 'root problems' within societies have been around as long as humanity has existed.

The difference is that a heated argument that might have resulted in a black eye or a bloody lip back in the day now results in death.

 

[UCFBS]

Yeah boy, cops LOVE the proliferation of guns!!!

They really enjoy making routine traffic stops or domestic violence calls and wondering if someone is gonna shoot them.*

You really are ignorant.
Can't fix that.

(cops fear illegal ownership and people packing without permits you ignorant fool)

AGAIN...

How do you fix illegal acquisition, ownership and use with laws on legal acquisition, ownership and permits?

(it's impossible)

 

[UCFBS]

This is such bullshit. The 'root problems' within societies have been around as long as humanity has existed.

The difference is that a heated argument that might have resulted in a black eye or a bloody lip back in the day now results in death.

No, it still results in death with knives and then fists.

But grandma is more equal.

 

[DaShuckster]

Yeah boy, cops LOVE the proliferation of guns!!!

They really enjoy making routine traffic stops or domestic violence calls and wondering if someone is gonna shoot them.*

You really are ignorant.
Can't fix that.

I'm sure that Ella French - the cop who was shot to death making a routine traffic stop - would wholeheartedly agree with you.*

 

[sk8knight]

No, it still results in death with knives and then fists.

But grandma is more equal.

I will never understand why people can’t understand that a 5’ nothing, 100 and nothing woman or elderly person is at the complete mercy of a 6’+ attacker unless they have access to a firearm. I know female cops who’ve been beaten brutally by larger attackers and even raped while armed and in uniform. I know one female sheriff’s deputy that was getting pummeled by her attacker on duty at a busy gas station and could not get to her gun and the only thing that stopped her was when a Good Samaritan placed the barrel of his firearm against the attacker’s head. At least they had a chance and training.

I wish they would at least admit that they’re so afraid of guns and gang bangers killing each other that they’ll sacrifice a portion of our vulnerable population in a futile attempt to remove the scary things.

 

[DaShuckster]

I wish they would at least admit that they’re so afraid of guns and gang bangers killing each other that they’ll sacrifice a portion of our vulnerable population in a futile attempt to remove the scary things.

Christ, weren't YOU the OP who posted an article about a female cop getting SHOT TO DEATH making a routine traffic stop??!? 🤪

 

[sk8knight]

Christ, weren't YOU the OP who posted an article about a female cop getting SHOT TO DEATH making a routine traffic stop??!? 🤪

Yes. But apparently you're unable to discern that I blame the killers not the tool from everything else that has been said in this thread.

Let me make a suggestion for you as your journey into the sunset continues:

 

[hemightbejeremy]

People have been killing each other for Millenia. Better tools have only made them more efficient at it. You can talk about “changing the culture” but in reality people killing each other has been part of the human experience since humans first existed.

 

[sk8knight]

People have been killing each other for Millenia. Better tools have only made them more efficient at it. You can talk about “changing the culture” but in reality people killing each other has been part of the human experience since humans first existed.

China banned knives millennia ago to keep people from murdering and invented chopsticks. Chinese people still commit murder with all sorts of implements. Bama don’t work; they don’t work for alcohol, they don’t work for alcohol, they won’t work for guns, and they won’t stop people from killing each other.

No one said it was going to be easy but we have to figure out how to transcend above our base animal nature. That’s an enlightened society. Not one that just tries to hide things to no real effect.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

China banned knives millennia ago to keep people from murdering and invented chopsticks. Chinese people still commit murder with all sorts of implements. Bama don’t work; they don’t work for alcohol, they don’t work for alcohol, they won’t work for guns, and they won’t stop people from killing each other.

No one said it was going to be easy but we have to figure out how to transcend above our base animal nature. That’s an enlightened society. Not one that just tries to hide things to no real effect.

What does “figuring it out” entail? Generally societies that have low murder rates have good social safety nets. Much of the violent crime in the US is a direct result of poverty. Illegal ways to make money including drug dealing and theft often have collateral damage. So given we live in a country where we put work above all else and guns outnumber people, what are some ideas you have to fix “the culture”?

 

[sk8knight]

What does “figuring it out” entail? Generally societies that have low murder rates have good social safety nets. Much of the violent crime in the US is a direct result of poverty. Illegal ways to make money including drug dealing and theft often have collateral damage. So given we live in a country where we put work above all else and guns outnumber people, what are some ideas you have to fix “the culture”?

First let me pick at a point. While guns outnumber people, the vast majority of guns are held in multi-gun collections by people that will never commit a crime, much less a gun crime. So if you’re going after gun control, find a way to stop the criminals from making strawman purchases or illegal transactions and, for all that is good in this world, stop the bidirectional movement of illegal weapons across our southern border.

After that, let’s find a way to bring back the manufacturing work to this country. Whether it’s through relaxing labor burdens, reworking torts and liability, or enacting trade barriers or something else, let’s start making our own goods again. The knowledge economy is great but is ripping our society apart.

Then, maybe we couple a values-based education system with a conflict resolution process that actually works. And a media and Hollywood that produce things that reinforce education and anti-violence rather than make fortunes off exactly the opposite while they sooth their conscience by virtue signaling at us.

Finally, find a way to make organized crime unprofitable. Whether through strict enforcement or by undermining their markets, when children see more benefit from living by society’s values rather than by flaunting them, they will choose to live by the values.

I’m also for a safety net but it can’t be a way of life and it is for far too many.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

First let me pick at a point. While guns outnumber people, the vast majority of guns are held in multi-gun collections by people that will never commit a crime, much less a gun crime. So if you’re going after gun control, find a way to stop the criminals from making strawman purchases or illegal transactions and, for all that is good in this world, stop the bidirectional movement of illegal weapons across our southern border.

After that, let’s find a way to bring back the manufacturing work to this country. Whether it’s through relaxing labor burdens, reworking torts and liability, or enacting trade barriers or something else, let’s start making our own goods again. The knowledge economy is great but is ripping our society apart.

Then, maybe we couple a values-based education system with a conflict resolution process that actually works. And a media and Hollywood that produce things that reinforce education and anti-violence rather than make fortunes off exactly the opposite while they sooth their conscience by virtue signaling at us.

Finally, find a way to make organized crime unprofitable. Whether through strict enforcement or by undermining their markets, when children see more benefit from living by society’s values rather than by flaunting them, they will choose to live by the values.

I’m also for a safety net but it can’t be a way of life and it is for far too many.

Appreciate the thoughtful response. You have some good goals. Nothing specifically attainable in the short term. The positive effects of any institutional changes will not be felt for generations, though I agree we should be taking those kind of steps.

 

[sk8knight]

Appreciate the thoughtful response. You have some good goals. Nothing specifically attainable in the short term. The positive effects of any institutional changes will not be felt for generations, though I agree we should be taking those kind of steps.

It will be hard, it will take a long time, and it will take leadership and organization that this country does not currently possess. The Great American Experiment is going to die because we are far more willing to hate each other than like each other.

 

[UCFBS]

I'm sure that Ella French - the cop who was shot to death making a routine traffic stop - would wholeheartedly agree with you.*

Indeed she would! And the officers that survive her did!

Did you not read? It was good guys that got one of the shooters, NOT police!

Geez you're beyond ignorant! Please talk to law enforcement. Please.

 

[sk8knight]

This guy is ready for the gun ban.

 

[DaShuckster]

This guy is ready for the gun ban.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation reports an estimated 434 million firearms in civilian possession, with about half, 214 million, of those entering the market since 1991. The AR-15 accounts for an estimated 19.8 million.

But let's focus on deadly axes.

 

[_glaciers]

Everyone accepts the risk posed by automobile accidents because it's obvious the net benefit they provide to society. But we all admit they pose a risk, particularly in the hands of irresponsible people. Doing away with automobiles would eliminate a major source of death, injury and pollution. But we'd universally agree that's a terrible idea.

So why is it hard to admit that eliminating guns from society would eliminate the problems associated with them? That doesn't mean you want to ban guns anymore than you want to ban cars. It just means you're honestly assessing the situation.

well unfortunately for you, there is a net positive to an abundance of legal gun ownership.

• Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Most often, the gun is never fired, and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
• Every year, 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.
• 60 percent of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. Forty percent of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
• Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.
• Fewer than 1 percent of firearms are used in the commission of a crime.
• the Center for Disease Control, in a report ordered by President Obama in 2012 following the Sandy Hook Massacre, estimated that the number of crimes prevented by guns could be even higher—as many as 3 million annually, or some 8,200 every day.

source

 

[Boosted87]

well unfortunately for you, there is a net positive to an abundance of legal gun ownership.

• Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Most often, the gun is never fired, and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.
• Every year, 400,000 life-threatening violent crimes are prevented using firearms.
• 60 percent of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. Forty percent of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
• Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.
• Fewer than 1 percent of firearms are used in the commission of a crime.
• the Center for Disease Control, in a report ordered by President Obama in 2012 following the Sandy Hook Massacre, estimated that the number of crimes prevented by guns could be even higher—as many as 3 million annually, or some 8,200 every day.

source

There you go! What I'm saying is that it's OK to admit there are pros and cons. But you have to have an honest discussion. Trading those benefits against the police officer deaths, murders, suicides, accidental injury, etc is fair.

I'm not anti-gun, but I can't stand how the industry is protected politically. There's no downsides for manufacturers if their products fuel a black market - only financial rewards. The industry wants no part of developing "smart" technology into consumer firearms (I've seen this first hand through some product development work I've done).

So it's basically a big dinosaur that relies on political cover to keep blindly producing as many dumb firearms as it can with zero liability risk for how they are used and no responsibility for how many of their products end up on the black market.

 

[UCFBS]

There you go! What I'm saying is that it's OK to admit there are pros and cons. But you have to have an honest discussion. Trading those benefits against the police officer deaths, murders,

But how many legally acquired and owned guns kill police?

Even police point this out, which a why police are not only pro-militia, not only rely on militias in disaster areas, but police belong or have relationships with them, from the south to inner cities.

Even the Black Panthers often have very high standards and operate legally as far as ownership.

suicides,

Suicide rates don't change without access to firearms. That's widely agreed and even proven in countries that have banned them. Drugs and other methods increase.

accidental injury,

Per household with a firearm, the US has one of the lowest rates in the world.

, etc is fair.

Not when the statistics include illegally acquired and owned firearms, as well as organized crime.

When they are removed, and only legally acquired and owned included, the statistics plummet by an order of magnitude.

I'm not anti-gun, but I can't stand how the industry is protected politically.

Actually, they're not. In fact, we have lawyers getting disbarred for wasting the courts time just to bankrupt companies.

That's because small arms are low margins. No one goes into small arms for profit. The money is in big, federal contacts.

And many companies who 'ramp up' on machines tend to go bankrupt. That's why small mom'n pops rule. A single, wrongly filed lawsuit takes them out.

That's why even Bernie Sanders supports the laws.

There's no downsides for manufacturers if their products fuel a black market

This is not only utter bullshit, but the US gov't threatened to jail those who didn't want to participate in gun running.

How do you think they found out? Responsible gun shops called them to report people they had turned away.

And gun shops are NOT resellers. That's like saying GM is a car salesman. But even then, GM is more shady in its licensing of franchisers than gun companies are of shops.

only financial rewards.

You have literally ate up the false and fake narrative of the gun running and US Media.

This is so beyond bullshit, it's not even worth talking about.

Yes the US gov't DOES prosecute such! What the US gov't doesn't seem to prosecute are criminals who try to buy guns or many others who are actually the problem.

Including public servants in Floridia and Ohio who purposely make the background check system useless, and cause people not to get flagged.

They are the biggest problem! They broke the system!

The industry wants no part of developing "smart" technology into consumer firearms (I've seen this first hand through some product development work I've done).

Because they don't work consistently. Show me a product that works consistently!

Biometrics aren't easy in a small device not connected to a constantly charged product.

So it's basically a big dinosaur that relies on political cover to keep blindly producing as many dumb firearms as it can with zero liability risk for how they are used and no responsibility for how many of their products end up on the black market.

You do realize that firearms are not smart phones and one of the first, simple, mechanical devices, correct?

That's like mandating smartphone safety and state tracking to a bicycle with no gears. It's beyond stupid, and will immediately lead to privacy issues overnight.

Literally think things through before you speak. They want smarts in guns to confiscate them.

 

[Boosted87]

But how many legally acquired and owned guns kill police?

Not when the statistics include illegally acquired and owned firearms, as well as organized crime.

That's like saying "but how many opioid addicts are using legally acquired opioids? Your opioid overdose death statistics include illegally acquired opioids."

Do you play whack-a-mole with every pain clinic and skeezy doctor skirting the law to fuel black market supply networks, while the manufacturers profit from supplying those networks while covering their eyes? Or do you impose accountability at the source where the profit is generated?

Actually, they're not. In fact, we have lawyers getting disbarred for wasting the courts time just to bankrupt companies.

I said the industry is protected politically. You said "actually they're not." You can't possibly have meant that. They have their own law (PLCAA) that exempts from legal liability in how a firearm is used. Maybe you agree with the law, but I don't see how you argue this isn't a unique political carve out.