The Church and Homosexuality

[DaShuckster]

Below is a post taken from "PA priests raped over 1000 kids."

Then your response when this religion is criticized:

Rather than responding to this post by going WAY off-topic, I decided to give it its own discussion thread.

I find it interesting how many times I've heard people point to Islam and decry some of the old beliefs of SOME Muslims that rub us all the wrong way given today's societal norms (the above being a case in point.)

But while Conservative Christians are happy to single out some of the ancient beliefs of other religions that that are now frowned upon given our values today, these same people often take offense if anyone dares to challenge anything to do with their particular orthodoxy.

Case in point: Christianity's view of homosexuality. Some churches, my own included, are making a concerted effort to be more open and accepting of homosexuals in their congregations. As you would expect, there's also a lot of push back too. While I can appreciate how God's message to the ancient writers of the Bible could have been interpreted 'homosexuality to be a sin,' procreation is no longer critical given the size of our human population. And the natural bisexual feelings that most humans have to varying degrees is not nearly as "scary" today as they were even 20 years ago. Thanks to science we now know a heck of a lot more about human sexuality than we did back then---let alone centuries and centuries ago.

The response I've gotten when I've presented this in the past is that GOD'S WORD IS GOD'S WORD, DAMMIT, YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT'S A SIN AND WHAT'S NOT.

Funny thing is, all religions -- especially Christianity -- have been changing their practices and beliefs for centuries. So anyone who wants to use the Bible to justify their bigotry and homophobia, better be careful. The times they are a-changing.

 

[HeupelsThirdChin]

I don't have to be a "conservative Christian" to point out that the religion of Islam is absolute garbage. When's the last time someone blew themselves up and yelled "praise Jesus?

Sure, some Old Testament scripture is probably bigoted, but are their followers acting in accordance? Where's the Christian version of ISIS? Where are the countries where rape and sexual assault are skyrocketing because of Christian migrants? (See Sweden and Germany for how that trash faith destroys peaceful environments)

Where are the Christian grooming gangs that are running wild? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html

Where are the Christian countries that are doling out the death penalty to homosexuals? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...death-2/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6a210a746a35

Which Christian country is giving rape victims the death penalty as punishment for "adultery"?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reyhaneh_Jabbari

Where are the Christian countries that are destroying the health of their gene pool due to the prevalence of inbreeding?
https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/m...cessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/

Not even close to being equivalent. Breeds a toxic culture that needs major reform before it deserves tolerance.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Christians sre hypocritical, this isn't news to you I hope. Hell 5 minutes on this board with the likes of 85 and fab is enough to prove it.

 

[DaShuckster]

Where are the Christian countries that are doling out the death penalty to homosexuals?

Um, I suppose we can pat ourselves on the back that we're not 'doling out the death penalty.'

But we're a long way away from opening accepting Gays into our Christian churches.

 

[goodknightfl]

Hopefully the church gets it stuff together, but I doubt it. The countries involved need to prosecute priest, and Fine the church big time. You hit em in the pocket hard enough they will pay attention.

 

[Jedi.Knight]

Um, I suppose we can pat ourselves on the back that we're not 'doling out the death penalty.'

But we're a long way away from opening accepting Gays into our Christian churches.

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

 

[NinjaKnight]

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

Leviticus 19

19“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them.
34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born.in EgyptI am the Lord your God.

Funny how we don't see churches protesting any of the above. Where are the protesters about medium rare steak? Where is the outrage about tattoos? Why isn't Chik Fil A donating millions to protest beard trimming? The bolded one is particularly incredible in todays day and age. Would love @fabknight to comment, but he's too much of a hypocritical pussy.

 

[DaShuckster]

Funny how we don't see churches protesting any of the above.

When Fundamentalist Christians rant about "those gays," I wonder why The Greatest Commandment of the Bible always seems to take a back seat to their hatred over "the sin" of homosexuality.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Leviticus 19

19“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them.
34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born.in EgyptI am the Lord your God.

Funny how we don't see churches protesting any of the above. Where are the protesters about medium rare steak? Where is the outrage about tattoos? Why isn't Chik Fil A donating millions to protest beard trimming? The bolded one is particularly incredible in todays day and age. Would love @fabknight to comment, but he's too much of a hypocritical pussy.

crickets.gif

 

[jt_knight]

crickets.gif

This is a good and fair question to ask. Why are some OT laws applicable today while others are not? The Law of Moses (OT Law) contains moral, civil, and ceremonial laws.

The moral law (i.e., stealing, murder, lying, child sacrifice) applies equally today as in the OT. Homosexuality along with any heterosexual activity outside of marriage is a violation of God's moral law.

Civil laws (i.e., debt, divorce, inheritance, etc.) applied to the nation of Israel. American civil law can differ from Israel's law without violating God's law. Christians are free to disagree on which civil laws and policies ought to be implemented without committing sin.

Ceremonial laws (i.e., dietary restrictions, festivals, etc.) related to the proper worship of God before the death and resurrection of Christ. They are no longer required in order to worship God.

All Christians ought to treat foreigners with the respect due to every person because every person is created in the image of God. That does not mean Christians must support amnesty or open borders as a policy of the United States. Morally, Christians must love thy neighbor, but in a civil sense, the Bible does not dictate immigration policy.

I hope this helps. If you are curious, here is a link that will explain in greater detail: https://carm.org/what-are-the-main-divisions-of-the-old-testament-law

 

[NinjaKnight]

This is a good and fair question to ask. Why are some OT laws applicable today while others are not? The Law of Moses (OT Law) contains moral, civil, and ceremonial laws.

The moral law (i.e., stealing, murder, lying, child sacrifice) applies equally today as in the OT. Homosexuality along with any heterosexual activity outside of marriage is a violation of God's moral law.

Civil laws (i.e., debt, divorce, inheritance, etc.) applied to the nation of Israel. American civil law can differ from Israel's law without violating God's law. Christians are free to disagree on which civil laws and policies ought to be implemented without committing sin.

Ceremonial laws (i.e., dietary restrictions, festivals, etc.) related to the proper worship of God before the death and resurrection of Christ. They are no longer required in order to worship God.

All Christians ought to treat foreigners with the respect due to every person because every person is created in the image of God. That does not mean Christians must support amnesty or open borders as a policy of the United States. Morally, Christians must love thy neighbor, but in a civil sense, the Bible does not dictate immigration policy.

I hope this helps. If you are curious, here is a link that will explain in greater detail: https://carm.org/what-are-the-main-divisions-of-the-old-testament-law

Thanks for the detailed response, I have read up on this quite a bit and the problem with your explanation lies with the modern day interpretation and application of "moral, ceremonial and civil laws". Not only are these not defined anywhere in the bible, but since they are not even defined who is to say which law lies where? It's painfully obvious that people put the homosexuality in the "moral" made up category when it could just as easily be put in the ceremonial or civil category.

 

[HeupelsThirdChin]

crickets.gif

Lmao this guy blocks everyone who calls him out on his conspiracies then pokes his chest out before going back to his hentai

 

[CommuterBob]

I don't have to be a "conservative Christian" to point out that the religion of Islam is absolute garbage. When's the last time someone blew themselves up and yelled "praise Jesus?

Sure, some Old Testament scripture is probably bigoted, but are their followers acting in accordance? Where's the Christian version of ISIS? Where are the countries where rape and sexual assault are skyrocketing because of Christian migrants? (See Sweden and Germany for how that trash faith destroys peaceful environments)

Where are the Christian grooming gangs that are running wild? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html

Where are the Christian countries that are doling out the death penalty to homosexuals? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...death-2/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6a210a746a35

Which Christian country is giving rape victims the death penalty as punishment for "adultery"?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reyhaneh_Jabbari

Where are the Christian countries that are destroying the health of their gene pool due to the prevalence of inbreeding?
https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/m...cessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/

Not even close to being equivalent. Breeds a toxic culture that needs major reform before it deserves tolerance.

Well, there's a growing sect of evangelical Christians who are hoping to bring about the end of the world...



...and believe supporting Israel is the way to do that.

 

[jt_knight]

Thanks for the detailed response, I have read up on this quite a bit and the problem with your explanation lies with the modern day interpretation and application of "moral, ceremonial and civil laws". Not only are these not defined anywhere in the bible, but since they are not even defined who is to say which law lies where? It's painfully obvious that people put the homosexuality in the "moral" made up category when it could just as easily be put in the ceremonial or civil category.

Since we are talking specifically about Christians then we look to both the Old and New Testament. The NT affirms the OT sexual ethics as part of the universal moral law of God. This includes the prohibition on homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality (and all heterosexual practices outside of marriage) cannot be relegated to a feature of the civil or ceremonial Law of Moses.

Conversely, the NT talks about why the ceremonial laws no longer apply to Christians. As for civil laws, they are not binding on Christians either because we do not live in a theocratic nation-state like ancient Israel. Christians may advocate for any civil law that does not violate the moral law of God.

 

[DaShuckster]

Since we are talking specifically about Christians then we look to both the Old and New Testament. The NT affirms the OT sexual ethics as part of the universal moral law of God.

As we've seen - and you've outlined - Christian laws have changed over the centuries. With what we know today about human sexuality, the church will eventually respond to the issue of homosexuality the same way they've responded to other changes in societal sensibilities in the past. To do anything less would be hypocritical of the Golden Rule.

It's worth noting that even though Jesus lived over 20 centuries ago and didn't have the benefit of today's science, he never condemned homosexuality.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Since we are talking specifically about Christians then we look to both the Old and New Testament. The NT affirms the OT sexual ethics as part of the universal moral law of God. This includes the prohibition on homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality (and all heterosexual practices outside of marriage) cannot be relegated to a feature of the civil or ceremonial Law of Moses.

Conversely, the NT talks about why the ceremonial laws no longer apply to Christians. As for civil laws, they are not binding on Christians either because we do not live in a theocratic nation-state like ancient Israel. Christians may advocate for any civil law that does not violate the moral law of God.

The problem with your argument is still that no where in the bible are these "ceremonial, civil and moral" laws defined. This is a modern day invention. And I'm glad you mentioned that all sexual sins are mentioned in the new testament. I just wonder why the modern church turns a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, etc when it is clearly just as "bad" in the bible as homosexuality.

 

[jt_knight]

As we've seen - and you've outlined - Christian laws have changed over the centuries. With what we know today about human sexuality, the church will eventually respond to the issue of homosexuality the same way they've responded to other changes in societal sensibilities in the past. To do anything less would be hypocritical of the Golden Rule.

It's worth noting that even though Jesus lived over 20 centuries ago and didn't have the benefit of today's science, he never condemned homosexuality.

To fairly respond to your point about "Christian laws" changing would require far too detailed examination of theology and church history not suitable for this forum. But in short, the laws and practices of nations change but the Bible remains the same. Our understanding and application of the Bible can change based on the context in which we are living, but the foundation of God, man, sin (including all sexual sin), and salvation (the Gospel) remain the same. Christians should not worry about shifting cultural understandings of marriage and sexuality because ultimately scripture, not culture is the authority for Christians. I realize the issue of authority (especially concerning scientific discovery) creates a dozen new threads for this topic but I would suggest it be dealt with separately.

As far as Jesus is concerned, he affirmed the OT teachings on marriage and sexuality. This teaching included the prohibition on homosexual activity and any sexual activity outside of marriage.

The problem with your argument is still that no where in the bible are these "ceremonial, civil and moral" laws defined. This is a modern day invention. And I'm glad you mentioned that all sexual sins are mentioned in the new testament. I just wonder why the modern church turns a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, etc when it is clearly just as "bad" in the bible as homosexuality.

I agree. Churches turning a blind eye to heterosexual sin are in error and fall under the righteous judgment of God.

As far as the distinctions being a modern concept it has been understood since the early church fathers. Though not spelled out explicitly in scripture, it is evident from scripture as an observation a posteriori.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/on-the-tripartite-division-of-the-law/.

Using reason, one can read scripture and arrive at the conclusion that God intended certain divine ordinances to have a temporal limitation while others are eternally and universally binding. I do not see biblical evidence to suggest that homosexuality should be treated with temporal limitations. But I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

 

[UCFBS]

Rather than responding to this post by going WAY off-topic, I decided to give it its own discussion thread.

I find it interesting how many times I've heard people point to Islam and decry some of the old beliefs of SOME Muslims that rub us all the wrong way given today's societal norms (the above being a case in point.)

But while Conservative Christians are happy to single out some of the ancient beliefs of other religions that that are now frowned upon given our values today, these same people often take offense if anyone dares to challenge anything to do with their particular orthodoxy.

Because the US media excuses the former, but not the latter.

Are some Christians hypocritical? Even harmful? Absolutely!

But does the US media give some Muslims a pass? Absolutely!

That's what the right is complaining about, and they have a point.

 

[DaShuckster]

An UPDATE to this thread - The past two weeks, the United Methodist Church held it's general conference held once every four years. Back in 2019, reports were the world church was going to split in half over the issue of openly gay members, openly gay clergy, and gay marriage.

But the 2020 conference where the issue was to be decided was delayed until 2024 due to the pandemic. This past week, the Church overwhelmingly endorsed removing harmful LGBTQ language from its book of discipline and now allow churches to conduct gay marriages. It also lifted its ban on gay clergy. Some UMC churches in the South left but the predicted giant split did not occur.

I found the push back fascinating. One can't help but wonder how people who say they believe in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ convert to Old Testament Evangelists when the subject is human sexuality.

 

[thall_]

You got peepee slapped in your Israel thread so you're trying to shift gears 😆

Teachers, like you, are bigger predators to children than Priests

Educator Sexual Misconduct Remains Prevalent in Schools

Twenty years after the Shakeshaft Report, educator sexual misconduct remains rampant in U.S. schools. The results of a new study give insights into the abuse and how to prevent it.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[UCFBS]

Some people are just anti-Christian.
No different than any other bigotry.

 

[goodknightfl]

The problem with your argument is still that no where in the bible are these "ceremonial, civil and moral" laws defined. This is a modern day invention. And I'm glad you mentioned that all sexual sins are mentioned in the new testament. I just wonder why the modern church turns a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, etc when it is clearly just as "bad" in the bible as homosexuality.

I don't think most modern churches do turn a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, ect. I have heard plenty of sermons on it over the years, you can accept reality and love the sinner without condoning the sin. The same should be true in how the church handles gays,. It is more than possible to love the sinner without loving the sin.
No Christian should condone the sin, but that doesn't mean we have a right to mistreat the sinner.

 

[DaShuckster]

The same should be true in how the church handles gays,. It is more than possible to love the sinner without loving the sin.

Here in 2024, it is beyond ridiculous to still opine that homosexuality is "a sin." Scientists have learned more about human sexuality and the workings of the brain in the last 50 years than all of human history before then.

Once upon a time, homosexuality was feared because procreation was the key to the survival of the human species. With over eight billion people on the planet, I don't think we have to worry about that anymore.

No Christian should condone the sin, but that doesn't mean we have a right to mistreat the sinner.

Christianity is about love, not hate. People who believe that a Jesus Christ living today would call gays "sinners" hasn't spent much time reading the New Testament. Interestingly, Jesus and his teachings become more progressive -- amazingly so given the age he lived in -- if you read books about Jesus that the church's Powers-that-Be chose not to include in the Bible (i.e. the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary as examples.) Conservative censorship has a very long history in the church.