The UK government is killing another child against parents wishes

[UCFKnight85]

A UK court has now ruled again that the boy is not allowed to leave the country, despite the Italians waiting with a plane to immediately take him to the Vatican care center for treatment.

Instead they're now discussing "possibly" allowing the parents to take their own son home. To die.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

I still don't get how a supposed first world democracy can stop parents from doing what is best for their own kids. Absolute insanity.

 

[UCFKnight85]

This is a gut wrenching yet important read

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/alfie-evans-case-americas-future/amp/

 

[goodknightfl]

Socialist doing what socialist do.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Alfie died this morning.

 

[fried-chicken]

You can always count on 85 and other like minded posters to leave out the facts that they don't like to try to attack liberal ideas.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

You can always count on 85 and other like minded posters to leave out the facts that they don't like to try to attack liberal ideas.

What facts are missing?

 

[UCFKnightfan08]

You can always count on 85 and other like minded posters to leave out the facts that they don't like to try to attack liberal ideas.

Please list the facts because it sounds like a story from a shithole like Iraq and I would love for it to be wrong.

 

[fried-chicken]

The fact that his brain was permanently destroyed from years of seizures and neurological degeneration to the point where there was no recovery possible, a fact that even the Italian doctors acknowledged. Not even the shining beacon that is American privatized healthcare would have treated this child on an insurance company's dime for the next 70 years as he sat in a vegetative state. You can't say things like this is what socialized medical care does when you can almost guarantee that in the US it would be the same result. It's inhumane to do what they were wanting to do.

Painting the death of a child from a terminal illness and getting people who don't understand brain damage to rail against socialized medical care is such a dirtbag thing to do.

 

[NinjaKnight]

You can always count on 85 and other like minded posters to leave out the facts that they don't like to try to attack liberal ideas.

Does anyone actually believe what 85 says anymore? His track record of outright lying to advance his political team is pretty well established. But I guess we can now add to it disgusting twisting of the truth by using the death of child to cheer for his political team. Just pathetic.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

The fact that his brain was permanently destroyed from years of seizures and neurological degeneration to the point where there was no recovery possible, a fact that even the Italian doctors acknowledged. Not even the shining beacon that is American privatized healthcare would have treated this child on an insurance company's dime for the next 70 years as he sat in a vegetative state. You can't say things like this is what socialized medical care does when you can almost guarantee that in the US it would be the same result. It's inhumane to do what they were wanting to do.

Painting the death of a child from a terminal illness and getting people who don't understand brain damage to rail against socialized medical care is such a dirtbag thing to do.

Every article I've read on this story said it was terminal. No one was hiding that to rail against the UK's shit system. There you go making up stuff to argue against again.

Being terminal doesn't mean that the parents don't get to try everything possible to save their son. That doesn't mean the government can take a child from it's parents to let him die because the government doesn't want to pay for more treatment.

I find it hard to believe you would just let the government kill one of your kids when there are still other options available.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Every article I've read on this story said it was terminal. No one was hiding that to rail against the UK's shit system. There you go making up stuff to argue against again.

Being terminal doesn't mean that the parents don't get to try everything possible to save their son. That doesn't mean the government can take a child from it's parents to let him die because the government doesn't want to pay for more treatment.

I find it hard to believe you would just let the government kill one of your kids when there are still other options available.

Its not just terminal he's almost completely brain dead. 85 conveniently left out that part in his pathetic attempt to win political points, making it sound like the evil Brit government is killing this baby by not giving him a fighting chance at some miracle cure. There is no cure, because there tragically is nothing left to cure.

...the vast majority of white matter in Alfie’s brain was wiped out, the Echo reports.

Alder Hey Children's Hospital in Liverpool said the toddler had suffered “catastrophic degradation of his brain tissue” over time.

Doctors said he had sustained significant brain damage because of a progressive, degenerative condition that had left his brain mostly as water and spinal fluid.

The most recent scan referred to in court showed that only around 30 per cent of the white matter, “or perhaps less”, remained in Alfie’s brain.

I personally still don't believe it is right, and it is outrageous that the British government thinks they can tell a parent what they can and can't do with their own child, but I don't feel the need to pathetically lie about the death of a child to win political points for "my side".

source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alfie-evans-dead-brain-condition-12417463

 

[Crazyhole]

The fact that his brain was permanently destroyed from years of seizures and neurological degeneration to the point where there was no recovery possible, a fact that even the Italian doctors acknowledged. Not even the shining beacon that is American privatized healthcare would have treated this child on an insurance company's dime for the next 70 years as he sat in a vegetative state. You can't say things like this is what socialized medical care does when you can almost guarantee that in the US it would be the same result. It's inhumane to do what they were wanting to do.

Painting the death of a child from a terminal illness and getting people who don't understand brain damage to rail against socialized medical care is such a dirtbag thing to do.

I don't disagree with most of this, but one thing should be added: there are a lot of hospitals that take on cases like this pro-bono because they have an opportunity to conduct research on the case. Parents in these situations often realize that their child has a terminal illness and allow the hospital to push the fringes of experimental research in return for keeping the child alive longer. I have a close friend who has a child that wasn't supposed to live past 2 years old, but he is now 16. The medical bills for his treatment would have been in the 10s of millions of dollars, but the hospital won't bill a dime of it as long as the parents keep bringing him to that hospital, because they are gaining valuable knowledge of his disease and how it is affected by various treatments.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Alfie Evans is dead. RIP.

He left this world with his parents not even having the final say in how their son lived out the final moments of his life. He died as a prisoner of a government.

If you aren’t fuking appalled by this then you have something wrong with you

 

[UCFKnight85]

The fact that his brain was permanently destroyed from years of seizures and neurological degeneration to the point where there was no recovery possible, a fact that even the Italian doctors acknowledged. Not even the shining beacon that is American privatized healthcare would have treated this child on an insurance company's dime for the next 70 years as he sat in a vegetative state. You can't say things like this is what socialized medical care does when you can almost guarantee that in the US it would be the same result. It's inhumane to do what they were wanting to do.

Painting the death of a child from a terminal illness and getting people who don't understand brain damage to rail against socialized medical care is such a dirtbag thing to do.

I thought you were an ardent supporter of a mothers right to choose? Or is that only for when she’s playing God with a life inside of her? As soon as the baby is born and ends up in a government run hospital, her right to choose what’s best for her son evaporates and defers to the government. That’s how it goes right?

 

[fried-chicken]

I find it hard to believe you would just let the government kill one of your kids when there are still other options available.

If you believe he's terminal then you know the government didn't kill their son. Yet here you are saying that.

 

[fried-chicken]

I thought you were an ardent supporter of a mothers right to choose? Or is that only for when she’s playing God with a life inside of her? As soon as the baby is born and ends up in a government run hospital, her right to choose what’s best for her son evaporates and defers to the government. That’s how it goes right?

Government or insurance company will choose, take your pick. You choose to blame the national health service because you can't miss a chance to try and attack liberal ideology despite the good it does.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

If you believe he's terminal then you know the government didn't kill their son. Yet here you are saying that.

There's never been a person that lived passed when the doctors said they would, ever. There are no experimental treatments out there. I hope your kids realize you'll just let them die if they get sick...

Government or insurance company will choose, take your pick. You choose to blame the national health service because you can't miss a chance to try and attack liberal ideology despite the good it does.

How about the parents money, or donations or probono work like crazy hole mentioned. The UK didn't give them a chance for any of that. Italy was going to foot the bill for this kid.


And what kind of treatment was this kid getting before the government decided he wasn't worth saving? I'm sure they we're doing everything they could for a kid they knew would just get euthanized.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Government or insurance company will choose, take your pick. You choose to blame the national health service because you can't miss a chance to try and attack liberal ideology despite the good it does.

You refuse to accept what is blindly obvious becuase you’re tied to an ideology despite the harm it does.

Fact: Alfie Evans parents wanted to seek secondary treatment
Fact: Italy and the vatican were ready and prepared to provide that care
Fact: the U.K. Government health system voided the parents right to make decisions for their own child and made him a prisoner of the State
Fact: if the parents had not had their God given rights to care for their own son stripped away from them, Alfie would have been in Italy and receiving care as we speak, instead of dead

It is absurd you defend this literal honest to God example of tyranny, simply because you refuse to admit what socialized medicine really means

 

[NinjaKnight]

I don't disagree with most of this, but one thing should be added: there are a lot of hospitals that take on cases like this pro-bono because they have an opportunity to conduct research on the case. Parents in these situations often realize that their child has a terminal illness and allow the hospital to push the fringes of experimental research in return for keeping the child alive longer. I have a close friend who has a child that wasn't supposed to live past 2 years old, but he is now 16. The medical bills for his treatment would have been in the 10s of millions of dollars, but the hospital won't bill a dime of it as long as the parents keep bringing him to that hospital, because they are gaining valuable knowledge of his disease and how it is affected by various treatments.

The problem here is 85 and Bob are being purposefully deceitful in their description of Alfie, he has been in a vegatative state since December 2016. He has had 70% of his brain eaten away and replaced with water and fluid. This isn't a terminal case where some experimental treatment could save his life, there literally wasn't a life to save (depending on your definition of life). Yet 85 purposefully lied and misled details to whip up and politicize this absolute tragedy, which is truly disgusting.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

The insanity in this argument is that the people that believe the government should be able to decide when a sick person lives or dies doesn't trust the government to police, decide who gets to vote or who gets to own guns.

Wow... The government can kill anyone or suppress rights as long as I agree with it. Science and experimental treatments are only good when I say so. Unfukingbelieveable.

 

[The Branch]

I'm ok with the government telling the parents that they will not cover the cost of any additional procedures due to the current status of the child. That is what socialized medical care does.

I'm not ok with the government confiscating the child and not giving him back to the parents to seek other care at their own cost.

 

[Crazyhole]

I'm ok with the government telling the parents that they will not cover the cost of any additional procedures due to the current status of the child. That is what socialized medical care does.

I'm not ok with the government confiscating the child and not giving him back to the parents to seek other care at their own cost.

Exactly. This case isn't about who pays or doesn't pay, it's about a parents rights to their child. It would be one thing if they had no options but that simply isn't the case here. It can be explained away 6 times from Sunday that he would die anyway but that really shouldn't be the point. The point is that when you give the government this much authority they will continue to take more and more until the average person has no choice but to be subservient under penalty of the law.

 

[UCF11and1]

If the kid was that gone, the British government was actually protecting Alfie from his parents and the doctors.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

The government should decide when people live or die except when it's a black guy trying to kill a cop.

 

[UCF11and1]

I thought you were an ardent supporter of a mothers right to choose? Or is that only for when she’s playing God with a life inside of her? As soon as the baby is born and ends up in a government run hospital, her right to choose what’s best for her son evaporates and defers to the government. That’s how it goes right?

So, whose decision should it be? The mother’s or government? If the government can tell a mother not to abort when the fetus is fully dependent of her, then they can tell her to stop treatment when the kid is terminal

 

[UCFKnight85]

So, whose decision should it be? The mother’s or government? If the government can tell a mother not to abort when the fetus is fully dependent of her, then they can tell her to stop treatment when the kid is terminal

If the government should have no say at all as to whether there will be restrictions for killing off the life inside you, then they should have no say when a mother AND father are wanting to take THEIR child to seek 2nd opinion and new treatment.

PS- you are aware that doctors have been wrong before? A lot? And that the U.K. doctors had no idea what was causing the condition?

It’d really simple. He died as a prisoner of the State and the rights of his parents were utterly destroyed in the process. It’s perverse. It’s unreal

 

[The Branch]

If the kid was that gone, the British government was actually protecting Alfie from his parents and the doctors.

Wow ... them are fighting words if it happens to me!!

 

[NinjaKnight]

Bob with more brain dead analogies, 85 acting more emotional than a menopausal woman and everyone else ignoring the actual facts of this case.

About sums up the WC.

 

[Crazyhole]

Bob with more brain dead analogies, 85 acting more emotional than a menopausal woman and everyone else ignoring the actual facts of this case.

About sums up the WC.

I don't think anyone is ignoring the facts, but some people think one set of facts is more important than others. The FACT that the government refused to let the parents take the child elsewhere at no cost to the taxpayer is a pretty important fact to me. The FACT that the government restrained the parents from even touching the child is a pretty inportant fact to me. The FACT that the hospital removed the priest from Alfies room is a pretty important fact to me.

The fact that the child was vegetative and supposedly had no chance of recovery is a moot point to me because we will never know what the outcome would have been if he had been taken elsewhere.

 

[NinjaKnight]

I don't think anyone is ignoring the facts, but some people think one set of facts is more important than others. The FACT that the government refused to let the parents take the child elsewhere at no cost to the taxpayer is a pretty important fact to me. The FACT that the government restrained the parents from even touching the child is a pretty inportant fact to me. The FACT that the hospital removed the priest from Alfies room is a pretty important fact to me.

The fact that the child was vegetative and supposedly had no chance of recovery is a moot point to me because we will never know what the outcome would have been if he had been taken elsewhere.

I have said before that the government refusing to allow the parents to take him elsewhere is 100% wrong, but there is no need to twist the truth, or even outright lie like 85 did in the title and leave out extremely important details like many other people are doing. This case is horrendous enough without resorting to lying.

 

[UCFWayne]

I have said before that the government refusing to allow the parents to take him elsewhere is 100% wrong, but there is no need to twist the truth, or even outright lie like 85 did in the title and leave out extremely important details like many other people are doing. This case is horrendous enough without resorting to lying.

you seem to care more about arguing with 85 than anything

 

[NinjaKnight]

you seem to care more about arguing with 85 than anything

Its not really arguing, it's about pointing out how much he lies to advance his painfully obvious political agenda, and how that is exactly what is wrong with America today. People treating politics like a freaking football game, always cheering for "their side" and blindly supporting it 100%.

Newsflash: both "sides" of politics make mistakes. Some people on here never can admit that and I enjoy pointing it out because then they flip out.

 

[UCFWayne]

Its not really arguing, it's about pointing out how much he lies to advance his painfully obvious political agenda, and how that is exactly what is wrong with America today. People treating politics like a freaking football game, always cheering for "their side" and blindly supporting it 100%.

Newsflash: both "sides" of politics make mistakes. Some people on here never can admit that and I enjoy pointing it out because then they flip out.

i notice how you dont even dispute the simple fact the only reason you are on this board is to argue with specific users. you were the single greatest factors for the downfall of the wc.

 

[NinjaKnight]

i notice how you dont even dispute the simple fact the only reason you are on this board is to argue with specific users. you were the single greatest factors for the downfall of the wc.

Wow so you are just making up completely fabricated statements now? Going the FNB and 85 route of just 100% lying and making up shit? I said I enjoy pointing out lies, never said anything close to what you stated.

Evidently you don't even dispute the simple fact that you think it's OK for people to spread lies and 100% false information on here.

 

[fried-chicken]

Bob in here saying that the government decided that a terminally ill child should die is a perfect example of what happens when people have opinions on stuff they have no idea about. The kid was going to die no matter what. He had irreversible brain damage from years of seizures. Italian doctors knew this. British doctors knew this. American for-profit doctors knew this. He had been semi vegetative for the last year and was deteriorating.

The government didn't decide he was going to die. His disease did you goober.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Bob in here saying that the government decided that a terminally ill child should die is a perfect example of what happens when people have opinions on stuff they have no idea about. The kid was going to die no matter what. He had irreversible brain damage from years of seizures. Italian doctors knew this. British doctors knew this. American for-profit doctors knew this. He had been semi vegetative for the last year and was deteriorating.

The government didn't decide he was going to die. His disease did you goober.

85 started off this thread with that same massive lie in the very title of the post! Not only is the UK gov NOT the one who killed this poor child (it was a disease), but 85 has actually called the only thing that could save him (scientific research) "left wing garbage". Just a pathetic display of lying to advance his political views.

 

[btbones]

you seem to care more about arguing with 85 than anything

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

Bob in here saying that the government decided that a terminally ill child should die is a perfect example of what happens when people have opinions on stuff they have no idea about. The kid was going to die no matter what. He had irreversible brain damage from years of seizures. Italian doctors knew this. British doctors knew this. American for-profit doctors knew this. He had been semi vegetative for the last year and was deteriorating.

The government didn't decide he was going to die. His disease did you goober.

By not allowing the family to seek other treatment or let doctors outside the country see him they killed Alfie. No one knows what else could have been done because the UK wouldn't allow it.

 

[NinjaKnight]

By not allowing the family to seek other treatment or let doctors outside the country see him they killed Alfie. No one knows what else could have been done because the UK wouldn't allow it.

Shocker, bob posts something that is 100% wrong.