War on sensemaking

[ChrisKnight06]

Daniel is an incredibly insightful guy and a very clear thinker. First found out about him from Eric Weinsteins podcast and have been seeking him out ever since. I'm sure most won't take the time but @Boosted87, I figure this is someone you'd really like based on how you seem to approach things.


"If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling."

 

[Boosted87]

Daniel is an incredibly insightful guy and a very clear thinker. First found out about him from Eric Weinsteins podcast and have been seeking him out ever since. I'm sure most won't take the time but @Boosted87, I figure this is someone you'd really like based on how you seem to approach things.


"If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling."

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Thanks! I'll try to give it a listen.

Carl Sagan is trending on Twitter this morning. He's got some crazy good quotes on this stuff too.

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."​

​

and

 

[DaShuckster]

I’ve listened to the first 20 minutes so far and have found it incredibly thought-provoking.

Thanks for sharing, Chris! 👍

 

[NinjaKnight]

"If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling."

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Disagree with this. There are actually chunks of the population that are not just dumb, but straight idiotic. Flat earthers, young earth creationists, scientologists, mormons, other science deniers. They believe things that are easily demonstrated to be false, but are too stupid to accept it.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

So what's the fix?

 

[DaShuckster]

Just finished the video. Incredibly thought provoking stuff.

I never really thought about "the stewardship of the information commons" before, but so much of what David said makes total sense. I really appreciated how he was able to put today's situation (social media, absence of world wars, AI tools, etc.) in some historical context. It's certainly given me a fascinating new topic to explore further -- so thanks again, Chris.

While the video may not be everybody's cup of tea, if nothing else, it helps explain all of our crap we see here on the WC.

 

[NinjaKnight]

So what's the fix?

Outlaw stupid people.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

Just finished the video. Incredibly thought provoking stuff.

I never really thought about "the stewardship of the information commons" before, but so much of what David said makes total sense. I really appreciated how he was able to put today's situation (social media, absence of world wars, AI tools, etc.) in some historical context. It's certainly given me a fascinating new topic to explore further -- so thanks again, Chris.

While the video may not be everybody's cup of tea, if nothing else, it helps explain all of our crap we see here on the WC.

Seriously glad to hear you enjoyed it. He's been such a great find this last year during a time when the ability to make sense of what's happening has been so difficult. Such clear first principles thinking. There's a lot of really good stuff out there with him so I definitely encourage you to keep looking.

 

[Happy Hands]

Is that Bret’s brother? I like Bret, but haven’t listened to anything from Eric.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

Is that Bret’s brother? I like Bret, but haven’t listened to anything from Eric.

Yes. Probably the smartest family of all time lol. Check out Eric's podcast, it's called The Portal.

 

[Happy Hands]

Yes. Probably the smartest family of all time lol. Check out Eric's podcast, it's called The Portal.

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I listened to his 2020 introductory podcast this morning. Really engaging, especially because I have no real ideological home and feel like most new media feels more like propaganda, or the controlled dissemination of only particular viewpoints, than neutral parties attempting to inform the public.
I love it when people smarter than me let me feel like I’m not a conspiracy theorists and that something is truly wrong.

 

[DaShuckster]

I love it when people smarter than me let me feel like I’m not a conspiracy theorists and that something is truly wrong.

My wife and I watch both NBC and ABC's evening news reports. We're talking two separate networks with two separate news divisions. Yet it's amazing to see how near-identical they are most of the time. Obviously, you'd expect they both cover the same major news stories of the day, but more often than not it goes far beyond that, even down to covering the same human interest stories.

 

[Crazyhole]

My wife and I watch both NBC and ABC's evening news reports. We're talking two separate networks with two separate news divisions. Yet it's amazing to see how near-identical they are most of the time. Obviously, you'd expect they both cover the same major news stories of the day, but more often than not it goes far beyond that, even down to covering the same human interest stories.

And also use the same rhetoric, talking points, and language. It can't be coincidental.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

I listened to his 2020 introductory podcast this morning. Really engaging, especially because I have no real ideological home and feel like most new media feels more like propaganda, or the controlled dissemination of only particular viewpoints, than neutral parties attempting to inform the public.
I love it when people smarter than me let me feel like I’m not a conspiracy theorists and that something is truly wrong.

Yes you should listen to Eric talk about the GIN (Gated Institutional Narrative). I can't remember, was that in the podcast you're talking about? It's a very compelling idea.

 

[Happy Hands]

Yes you should listen to Eric talk about the GIN (Gated Institutional Narrative). I can't remember, was that in the podcast you're talking about? It's a very compelling idea.

Yeah, he touched on it for a few minutes. That’s one of the reasons I felt an intellectual kinship to him. He is took thoughts that I have shared and presented them in a more polished and thoughtful way than I could have.
I also enjoyed hearing his plans for what he would talk about this year. I kept thinking that he has no idea what 2020 has in store. I’m interested to see how he handles it.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

Since you mentioned you like Bret, he has an episode with him back in Jan. Starts off a little bit rocky but gets realllly good once Bret finally shares his story .

 

[Happy Hands]

My wife and I watch both NBC and ABC's evening news reports. We're talking two separate networks with two separate news divisions. Yet it's amazing to see how near-identical they are most of the time. Obviously, you'd expect they both cover the same major news stories of the day, but more often than not it goes far beyond that, even down to covering the same human interest stories.

I don’t watch a lot of news on TV, so that’s interesting. I see it more with the way stories get passed around to different online sources. It is also weird how so many sites can interpret an event in the same disingenuous way.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

@Boosted87 not letting you skip out

 

[DaShuckster]

I don’t watch a lot of news on TV, so that’s interesting. I see it more with the way stories get passed around to different online sources. It is also weird how so many sites can interpret an event in the same disingenuous way.

Old way of thinking: It's weird how the media approaches so many stories the same way.
New way of thinking: The media's market researchers have us all pegged and are using what they've learned to keep feeding us our favorite foods -- the spicier and more addictive the better -- to keep us hooked.

 

[Seattle_knight]

I listened to the video while staining my deck. Good listen. Thanks for sharing.

Awhile back, I went thru an inward intellectual stage and used to seek this type of thinking but it is too complex for the human system. Ultimately I’ve decided that people like/are conditioned to the simplicity and power of being emotionally charged. It is an equalizer of sorts. There is an intelligence and spare time entry barrier to ultra-nuisance conversations that limit participation. Also, I think when you try to pack some of these big concepts down to their simplest form there are common sense roadblocks.

The idea of a pure info source or news aggregation and analysis tool is intriguing but who would protect the rules and protect against interest, pollution and buyout. In a way it seems he would like to replace Facebook with his version of aggregation and info dissemination. You can almost fast forward to humans finding what to exploit in that system and round we go.

Is it possible that large groups of people don’t actually care about the specific outcomes of larger scale events with indirect impact anyway and would rather have the emotional charge of belonging and winning and losing to give their life more meaning? If you think about it, sports fandom is a good analogy On a lot of levels.

 

[DaShuckster]

Is it possible that large groups of people ... would rather have the emotional charge of belonging and winning and losing to give their life more meaning? If you think about it, sports fandom is a good analogy On a lot of levels.

If that is true, it means we humans haven't really evolved beyond feudalism.

Ultimately, any attempt at truth, justice, and problem-solving involves some degree of consensus surrounding the facts. If, as an evolving society, we hope to ever reach a degree if consensus again given the widespread information pollution that exists in our world, Daniel's idea seems to me to be the cleanest approach we can hope for.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

I listened to the video while staining my deck. Good listen. Thanks for sharing.

Awhile back, I went thru an inward intellectual stage and used to seek this type of thinking but it is too complex for the human system. Ultimately I’ve decided that people like/are conditioned to the simplicity and power of being emotionally charged. It is an equalizer of sorts. There is an intelligence and spare time entry barrier to ultra-nuisance conversations that limit participation. Also, I think when you try to pack some of these big concepts down to their simplest form there are common sense roadblocks.

The idea of a pure info source or news aggregation and analysis tool is intriguing but who would protect the rules and protect against interest, pollution and buyout. In a way it seems he would like to replace Facebook with his version of aggregation and info dissemination. You can almost fast forward to humans finding what to exploit in that system and round we go.

A lot of good points. His "basic" exercise of posing questions on facebook (instead of comments) in order to elicit answers that help him identify the spectrum of narratives is a good example of your barrier of entry point. To survey all the narratives, steelman them, list out all of the propositions of each narrative and then epistemically researching each proposition is just a non-starter for the masses.

I do like the idea of creating momentum though. If even just a small community of people who think this way do in fact participate together and start coming up with BETTER ideas then eventually the fruit will bear and it will be an attractor to more likeminded people. This is a slow multi-generational process but one that is obviously necessary bc it is almost certain that the current path is self-terminating.

Is it possible that large groups of people don’t actually care about the specific outcomes of larger scale events with indirect impact anyway and would rather have the emotional charge of belonging and winning and losing to give their life more meaning? If you think about it, sports fandom is a good analogy On a lot of levels.

We're definitely hard wired for tribalism. Obviously that's the majority of our evolutionary history. Have you heard of Spiral Dynamics? Some really cool ideas of understanding stages of development for people, cultures etc.

Using Spiral Dynamics to understand development

 

[ChrisKnight06]

If that is true, it means we humans haven't really evolved beyond feudalism.

Ultimately, any attempt at truth, justice, and problem-solving involves some degree of consensus surrounding the facts. If, as an evolving society, we hope to ever reach a degree if consensus again given the widespread information pollution that exists in our world, Daniel's idea seems to me to be the cleanest approach we can hope for.

Yep, check out the above link and then start branching off of that.

 

[Crazyhole]

If that is true, it means we humans haven't really evolved beyond feudalism.

Ultimately, any attempt at truth, justice, and problem-solving involves some degree of consensus surrounding the facts. If, as an evolving society, we hope to ever reach a degree if consensus again given the widespread information pollution that exists in our world, Daniel's idea seems to me to be the cleanest approach we can hope for.

We haven't evolved beyond feudalism and probably never will. I started a thread about dictatorship vs democracy to basically point this out. Happiness will always be measured the same way: get what you want and you are happy, if you don't get what you want you are unhappy. Looking at it from an aggregate perspective, as long as 51% of people are happy the method of getting there really doesn't matter.

 

[Seattle_knight]

Yep, check out the above link and then start branching off of that.

Chris, I’ll take a look this evening. Top of my head, I’m somewhat skeptical of these types of charts. Corporate America latches to a new one of these every few years to help people better collaborate. society tends to spin on axioms. Sometimes it’s religion, sometimes it’s art, sometime science, sometimes technology, sometimes philosophy. I think it’s more of a wheel than linear but the chart may better explain otherwise.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

Chris, I’ll take a look this evening. Top of my head, I’m somewhat skeptical of these types of charts. Corporate America latches to a new one of these every few years to help people better collaborate. society tends to spin on axioms. Sometimes it’s religion, sometimes it’s art, sometime science, sometimes technology, sometimes philosophy. I think it’s more of a wheel than linear but the chart may better explain otherwise.

Yea I think you should look at it first. Ignore the chart. I think the evolution of our consciousness and how we organize is pretty clearly a progression. From very simplistic and animalistic, to tribal, to more complex integrative systems. Comes out of Ken Wilbur and Integral Psychology. Maybe the Medium article isn't the best since it looks at it from an organizational perspective, it was just the first I found.