What if he's right?

[Crazyhole]

Just curious if this thought ever crosses your mind if you are a liberal. What if there actually is election fraud going on? Not just this year, but in general. If you found out that it actually is rampant and has been hidden, how would you react?

 

[fried-chicken]

I know it's hard y'all but you're going to have to learn to live with President Biden

 

[Retnuhrace]

Every year, there are all kinds of shady things that go on on both sides before and during an election. But if we’re talking about the most overt things, you have to look at Russia’s interference in 2016 and this year’s voter suppression efforts... in addition to various courts not allowing mail in votes to be counted beforehand

 

[Crazyhole]

Every year, there are all kinds of shady things that go on on both sides before and during an election. But if we’re talking about the most overt things, you have to look at Russia’s interference in 2016 and this year’s voter suppression efforts... in addition to various courts not allowing mail in votes to be counted beforehand

If you know it happens, how can you trust the outcome?

 

[fried-chicken]

If you know it happens, how can you trust the outcome?

You pass election security laws like the one sent to the Senate and ignored in 2017 and 2019.

 

[goodknightfl]

I know it's hard y'all but you're going to have to learn to live with President Biden

Only for a little while. It is Harris we have to live with.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

The incentive is there for both sides to make sure more of their teams votes are counted than the other teams votes. Therefore the most logical conclusion TO ME is that both sides are doing what they can get away with to make sure more of their votes are counted than the other teams votes.

 

[fried-chicken]

Not arguing that. Are you ok with rigged elections? Could be Republicans doing a scam next time instead of Democrats. You good with that?

Can you at least make an accusation? Or is it just rigged in general? And who rigged it.

 

[sk8knight]

The incentive is there for both sides to make sure more of their teams votes are counted than the other teams votes. Therefore the most logical conclusion TO ME is that both sides are doing what they can get away with to make sure more of their votes are counted than the other teams votes.

If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t racin. Except that Republicans are too naive or incompetent to get away with it.

 

[fried-chicken]

Democrats passed election reform to the Senate in 2019 and 2017 that would ensure Americans know their vote got counted with electronic voting and paper backup.

Trump/mcconnell had no interest.

 

[goodknightfl]

I expect there is fraud, I doubt it is widespread. Trump is simply doing what Al Gore did. In the end if Biden wins Nevada, he will be Prez. As for the election reform bills, I expect the house had plenty of garbage loaded in those bills, that made them unacceptable to the Republicans. I am for a national standards bill, that still leaves states in charge of how they vote. If the system is done right with modern tech, there is no reason the votes that are in on or before election day should not be counted on election day. Trying to make it simpler for people to vote is making the system worse and not better.

 

[sk8knight]

I expect there is fraud, I doubt it is widespread. Trump is simply doing what Al Gore did. In the end if Biden wins Nevada, he will be Prez. As for the election reform bills, I expect the house had plenty of garbage loaded in those bills, that made them unacceptable to the Republicans. I am for a national standards bill, that still leaves states in charge of how they vote. If the system is done right with modern tech, there is no reason the votes that are in on or before election day should not be counted on election day. Trying to make it simpler for people to vote is making the system worse and not better.

Let's not forget that every attempt by Republicans to take even the slightest measure to make voting more secure gets characterized as racist voter suppression and evil vote control and fails to get any traction. How many people on this board have already been barking that one out.

 

[Boosted87]

Just curious if this thought ever crosses your mind if you are a liberal. What if there actually is election fraud going on? Not just this year, but in general. If you found out that it actually is rampant and has been hidden, how would you react?

Fraud absolutely happens. What bugs me is any narrative that suggests there is massive fraud and it only comes from one side. I need data to believe that. In the absence of data, it's logical that fraud would balance itself out. Individual acts (like turning in your wife's absentee ballot when she wasn't gonna vote or something) are really minor and non-impactful, and very likely to balance.

Massive fraud - like thousands of ballots - seems really hard to pull off. Both parties have eyeballs on the entire process everywhere.

Now if a statewide election in Florida comes down to 200 votes, then yes. "fraud" could absolutely flip the election. But so could a lot of things. A spate of 100,000 robocalls to an urban area telling the election has been moved to tomorrow could flip the election. A post office slow down where a couple thousand ballots arrived late could flip the election.

What concerns me the most is areas that don't have paper ballots and rely purely on digital voting solutions. In the event of a well executed or hack or scheme, there'd be no paper trail to audit against. To me, that's a genuine vulnerability.

Faith in our elections is critically important. Legitimate issues - like described above - need to be adressed. Conversely, it's anti-democratic and irresponsible for public officials to peddle conspiracies purely to rile up supporters - which is what we are seeing now.

 

[Crazyhole]

I wonder if it would be better for presidential elections to become a more parliamentary system, where state legislators were the actual voters and their vote was public.

 

[Crazyhole]

Definitely rigged. 130,000 Biden in Michigan at 3:30am. Every vote Biden and none trump. That is statically impossible with a state around 50/50. I don't think it was a coincidence that Biden studders biggest fraud Election.

Thats not what happened.

 

[Cubs79]

Not arguing that. Are you ok with rigged elections? Could be Republicans doing a scam next time instead of Democrats. You good with that?

There is no evidence Democrats are doing a scam this time.

 

[Cubs79]

I wonder if it would be better for presidential elections to become a more parliamentary system, where state legislators were the actual voters and their vote was public.

No, it should be a popular vote, the you wouldn't have to worry about every late night voter counts from a GA or PA precinct.

 

[Crazyhole]

No, it should be a popular vote, the you wouldn't have to worry about every late night voter counts from a GA or PA precinct.

That wouldn't change anything unless you had a nationwide system that produced immediate results. Maybe a block-chain type of thing, but even with that there would be no reason to go away from the EC. Just do it on a local level.

 

[Cubs79]

No mail in ballots. Vote in person with ID on a computer. All votes delivered at closing time. No issues assuming system doesn't get breached. Winner known immediately. This is insane to be counting votes 2 days later.

Votes are counted after election day every single election. Nothing going on this year is different than years past, other than the volume of ballots.

 

[Cubs79]

That wouldn't change anything unless you had a nationwide system that produced immediate results. Maybe a block-chain type of thing, but even with that there would be no reason to go away from the EC. Just do it on a local level.

There are plenty of reasons to go away from the EC, but that is another discussion.

 

[Crazyhole]

Antrim county in Michigan hasn't gone blue since 1964 and went for Trump by 30 points in 2016, went for Biden by 32 points on Tuesday. Likely another recording error, but doesn't that make you wonder if the same thing has happened elsewhere?

 

[DaShuckster]

No mail in ballots. Vote in person with ID on a computer. All votes delivered at closing time. No issues assuming system doesn't get breached. Winner known immediately. This is insane to be counting votes 2 days later.

It is "insane" in Pennsylvania because the Republican-controlled legislature refused to change an old law on the books that did not allow for early vote counts. Florida had all of its early votes counted and in the system from the get go, which is why Biden led early and as the same-day voting came in, Trump passed him.

In Pennsylvania, the counts are reversed with the same day votes followed by the mail-ins which couldn't begin to be counted until AFTER the election.

 

[fried-chicken]

Definitely rigged. 130,000 Biden in Michigan at 3:30am. Every vote Biden and none trump. That is statically impossible with a state around 50/50. I don't think it was a coincidence that Biden studders biggest fraud Election.

Fake news

 

[Happy Hands]

I have no idea how Georgia hasn’t finished counting yet. Plenty of more populous states have been done for days. Of course it’s Fulton county, home of the most corrupt and scandal laden politicians in the south. I’m not saying they are doing something shady, just that the ridiculous hold up is in a place where officials often do things that are shady.

 

[DaShuckster]

The half of America who voted for Donald Trump are being told through their "news sources" that the election is rigged now that it appears the Orange Man is going to lose.

I thought Election Day was our "Moment of Truth" for the Soul of America. Now it appears it will be how it chooses to respond to a Joe Biden victory in the electoral college and the popular vote.

 

[DaShuckster]

I have no idea how Georgia hasn’t finished counting yet. Plenty of more populous states have been done for days. Of course it’s Fulton county, home of the most corrupt and scandal laden politicians in the south. I’m not saying they are doing something shady, just that the ridiculous hold up is in a place where officials often do things that are shady.

If you're snowflaking over the "shadiness" of the time involved in finishing the ballot counting, I would bet that the outcome is going to be so close either way that they'll be conducting an official recount.

So stay calm, it'll be okay.

 

[Crazyhole]

I have no idea how Georgia hasn’t finished counting yet. Plenty of more populous states have been done for days. Of course it’s Fulton county, home of the most corrupt and scandal laden politicians in the south. I’m not saying they are doing something shady, just that the ridiculous hold up is in a place where officials often do things that are shady.

Its no big deal. They just don't know for sure yet how many ballots they need to come up with.

 

[Happy Hands]

If you're snowflaking over the "shadiness" of the time involved in finishing the ballot counting, I would bet that the outcome is going to be so close either way that they'll be conducting an official recount.

So stay calm, it'll be okay.

Well, I’m more of an anarchist than Democratic or Republican, so the election chaos serves to convert people closer to my point of view. The more people realize that government isn’t trustworthy or deserving of our faith, the closer the world gets to sanity.
Sadly, people will just blame the other side and go about their lives. That’s what I snowflake about.

 

[RobUCF]

No mail in ballots. Vote in person with ID on a computer. All votes delivered at closing time. No issues assuming system doesn't get breached. Winner known immediately. This is insane to be counting votes 2 days later.

It’s not insane, it’s actually commonplace in American history.

 

[RobUCF]

Oh and on voter fraud, sure there is likely some negligible fraud. But widespread, show me the evidence. Many studies have been done on this with no evidence of widespread fraud. Included in a that number is the voter integrity commission instituted by Trump himself (so partisan) following the 2016 election.

 

[RobUCF]

It was common to use horses as transportation.

Cool, but I don’t remember riding a horse in 2000.

 

[RobUCF]

20 years ago smart phones didn't exist. No reason we can't have fraud proof voting.

Different issue than timing - which is what you replied to. See my post below that, many studies have been conducted that say voter fraud is negligible. “Fraud proof” in terms of absolute zero is near impossible, but again even the commission started by Trump couldn’t find enough even close to change an election result.

 

[Crazyhole]

 

[Crazyhole]

Scott walker has reversed course and is encouraging Trump to challenge the Wisconsin vote. He must think there is something worth reviewing.

 

[Boosted87]

View embedded media

As best I can tell, the Antrim County situation was uniquely specific to that county. The "glitch" was caused by human error. It sounds like the "software update failure" had to do with keeping everything in sync as ballots were changed. In other words, this was a specific error in Antrim, not something inherent in the software.

Antrim vote glitch: Expert shares how county mistakenly flipped from red to blue

The Department of State said human error by the clerk in updating software, not related to the counting, was the problem.

www.freep.com

There's a real danger of blowing up every single irregularity. These kinds of things happen EVERY single election. The fact that it was quickly caught and corrected is evidence of the system working - not failing. I'm sure if in 2016 Democrats amplified every single voter inconsistency across Michigan, PA, and Wisconsin we'd have seem similar.

Still zero evidence of anything other than "normal" issues with the system.

 

[Boosted87]

Scott walker has reversed course and is encouraging Trump to challenge the Wisconsin vote. He must think there is something worth reviewing.

He's getting on the train. If you haven't noticed, there's a soft coup attempt brewing. The usual Trump sycophants were on board right away. The Romney's types congratulated Joe and said it's time to move on. Now we wait and see where everybody else goes. Right now, there is seemingly zero political consequence for Republicans riding with Trump on this. He commands a HUGE base of loyal supporters and - even when he's out of office - may be a kingmaker in the party.

The plan is obvious. There is no legitimate path to overturning the results in 3 states. The plan is create chaos and confusion and "ride the whirlwind." For Trump, this doesn't need to work. He just needs his base to remain convinced he actually won and it was stolen, so that he can wield maximum influence post election.

It's why some of us keep saying he's a demagogue that's a fundamental threat to self-government...

 

[Crazyhole]

He's getting on the train. If you haven't noticed, there's a soft coup attempt brewing. The usual Trump sycophants were on board right away. The Romney's types congratulated Joe and said it's time to move on. Now we wait and see where everybody else goes. Right now, there is seemingly zero political consequence for Republicans riding with Trump on this. He commands a HUGE base of loyal supporters and - even when he's out of office - may be a kingmaker in the party.

The plan is obvious. There is no legitimate path to overturning the results in 3 states. The plan is create chaos and confusion and "ride the whirlwind." For Trump, this doesn't need to work. He just needs his base to remain convinced he actually won and it was stolen, so that he can wield maximum influence post election.

It's why some of us keep saying he's a demagogue that's a fundamental threat to self-government...

I think part of it is looking forward to 2022. If they can convince the base that the election wasn't legit, they might be able to accomplish a red wave in the house.

 

[Boosted87]

This is interesting. Republican in Philly Commissioner on the insanity right now. Getting calls like "This is what the 2nd Amendment is for."

 

[DaShuckster]

I think part of it is looking forward to 2022. If they can convince the base that the election wasn't legit, they might be able to accomplish a red wave in the house.

"If they can convince the base that the election wasn't legit"...?

I could have sworn you were talking about rampant voter fraud this weekend.

 

[Crazyhole]

"If they can convince the base that the election wasn't legit"...?

I could have sworn you were talking about rampant voter fraud this weekend.

Nope. Once again you are guilty of assuming someone's intent. Of course there is fraud. Thats not what could change the election though.