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2020 Democrat hopefuls

Sorry but I'll continue saying it because that's what will happen. If you want to push the myth/lie that we can somehow abolish private insurance, force down MFA whose sole mission is to crush costs in the system, and not usher in the mass collapse of the private delivery services then you're nuts. MFA would (in theory) only work if they removed so much cost from the delivery system that it justified those massive tax increases.

At some point the business case for staying open as a private practice or hospital will be erased if the payee system is removing allowable billable costs to the point that it's not possible to make money. That's exactly what would happen, and IMO, exactly what socialists like Sanders want. He doesn't want ANYONE making money in the health care system.

You do realize this yes? The only way MFA possible can control costs is if it controls the mechanisms of service delivery.

Interesting comments by Fed Chair Powell in hearing yesterday.

"The outcomes are perfectly average for a first-world nation, but we spend 6 to 7% of GDP more than other countries. So it's about the delivery. That's a lot of money that you are effectively spending and getting nothing ... It's not that these benefits are fabulously generous, they're just what people get in Western economies"
Again - I'm totally open to a different way to dramatically improve the system. But we are overspending by 6% of GDP for average outcomes. MFA doesn't magically fix that, by itself, but it establishes a framework to help control costs going forward based on things proven to work elsewhere.

I'm open to other ideas. "Repeal Obamacare" is not a health care policy idea, which is all the GOP has offered for the last 10 years or so. So if not MFA, then what is structural change that addresses this?
 
Interesting comments by Fed Chair Powell in hearing yesterday.

"The outcomes are perfectly average for a first-world nation, but we spend 6 to 7% of GDP more than other countries. So it's about the delivery. That's a lot of money that you are effectively spending and getting nothing ... It's not that these benefits are fabulously generous, they're just what people get in Western economies"
Again - I'm totally open to a different way to dramatically improve the system. But we are overspending by 6% of GDP for average outcomes. MFA doesn't magically fix that, by itself, but it establishes a framework to help control costs going forward based on things proven to work elsewhere.

I'm open to other ideas. "Repeal Obamacare" is not a health care policy idea, which is all the GOP has offered for the last 10 years or so. So if not MFA, then what is structural change that addresses this?
Finally, something we can agree on, and I can 'meet you half-way.'

The Republicans stated they were going to remove ACA and replace it with a market-based system that was better. They didn't. They utterly punted it. Heck, even Trump was criticizing his own party over this. The only thing that the Republicans have done that is good is Rand Paul's AHAs, but that's only for self-employed.

But stepping back, the problem in the US is 3-fold ...
  1. Employer-based - the US Gov't penalizes you in taxes if you don't get your health insurance from your employer, because premiums of all other plans are taxes. So not only do most people get their insurance from their employer, but that makes everyone who does a victim of their employer's choices, their employer's views and ... worst of all ... their employment. If this didn't exist, we wouldn't need COBRA or pre-existing condition clauses. People wouldn't have to switch.
  2. Utter-waste - the level of waste, from non-standard fees and negotiated rates to the endless paperwork to the point we have to hire 10 people for every doctor, is out-of-control. Even I, a Libertarian, is for the US Federal government mandating disclosure of all costs and passing laws to utterly simplify the process via a 'minimum plan.' Unfortunately the US and State governments keep creating more layers instead.
  3. Not self-funded - until Americans seriously look at the real costs -- $2.3T/year -- we'll never address the issue. Countries like Switzerland have market-based insurance that, while costly compared to the rest of Europe, is the #1 medical benefits and -- most of all -- it's self-funded. In the Swiss system, employers pay into market-based options, instead of controlling it.
Being a Libertarian, I'm a huge fan of market-based solutions, so I'm biased towards the Swiss system, which is the best system in Europe, and completely self-funded -- 92% benefit paid from 100% of the premiums, 8% overhead total. The US system runs on a massive deficit, with unreal overhead. But Americans need to recognize it costs money, and we need to fund it. The ACA did not, jokingly so (don't get me started). That was my #1 problem with it.

I've often used the analogy that health insurance is like whole life insurance, not the best investment ... unless you die, or in this case, get sick. And that's the point. It is funding other people who need it ... until you need it. It needs to be actually funded, and that means everyone paying ... from age 16 or 18 or 21 ... on-ward, when healthy. This 'rich' or 'corporations' argument is getting old. At least Sanders understands that.

I have the same argument on the environment (which the Swiss also excel at, consumers pay for their impact) and other things. We need to stop just 'blaming' the 'corporations' and 'politicians' -- let alone the politicians are destroying it with 'green economy' BS (California is a joke to us EEs) -- and look at the actual costs. Sanders, to his credit, is pushing Medicare for All, which will cost $2.5T/year, and cover everyone. The base plan will suck compared to those of us with good PPO plans, and there will be gaps in coverage, but it should get everyone basic coverage.

I just hope Sanders and the left doesn't outlaw 'Supplementary Plans.' Right now, the current options for the latter don't allow for much, which means it will become the 'lowest common denominator.' I.e., forget keeping your doctor. E.g., as even Democratic polls show, and articles from Liberal magazines like The Atlantic point out, 3/4ths of Democratic voters don't understands what Medicare-for-All actually implements. The employed middle and, especially, upper-middle class will have horrendous coverage.

But that's what it costs, when everyone gets equal benefit. UK NHS ... here we come!
 
The fringe far left socialist wing of the Democratic Party is well on the way to making this dolt their nominee

“There is one clear and inescapable set of results: Bernie Sanders is the definitive [Democratic] front-runner, and the current numbers do not represent his ceiling, but instead his base with room to grow,” said Democratic pollster Peter Hart, who conducted this survey with Republican pollster Bill McInturff of Public Opinion Strategies…

When the Democratic field is reduced is just Sanders and Bloomberg, the Vermont senator holds a 20-point national lead over the former New York City mayor, 57 percent to 37 percent.

And Sanders also holds a double-digit lead over Buttigieg in a hypothetical two-person race, 54 percent to 38 percent.
 
The fringe far left socialist wing of the Democratic Party is well on the way to making this dolt their nominee

“There is one clear and inescapable set of results: Bernie Sanders is the definitive [Democratic] front-runner, and the current numbers do not represent his ceiling, but instead his base with room to grow,” said Democratic pollster Peter Hart, who conducted this survey with Republican pollster Bill McInturff of Public Opinion Strategies…

When the Democratic field is reduced is just Sanders and Bloomberg, the Vermont senator holds a 20-point national lead over the former New York City mayor, 57 percent to 37 percent.

And Sanders also holds a double-digit lead over Buttigieg in a hypothetical two-person race, 54 percent to 38 percent.

Trump vs bernie. How many states does trump win? 45?
 
The fringe far left socialist wing of the Democratic Party is well on the way to making this dolt their nominee

“There is one clear and inescapable set of results: Bernie Sanders is the definitive [Democratic] front-runner, and the current numbers do not represent his ceiling, but instead his base with room to grow,” said Democratic pollster Peter Hart, who conducted this survey with Republican pollster Bill McInturff of Public Opinion Strategies…

When the Democratic field is reduced is just Sanders and Bloomberg, the Vermont senator holds a 20-point national lead over the former New York City mayor, 57 percent to 37 percent.

And Sanders also holds a double-digit lead over Buttigieg in a hypothetical two-person race, 54 percent to 38 percent.

I think there are more centrists, they are just split between Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar and Bloomberg. Bernie has a ceiling in the low 30's. Bloomberg is about to destroy him with the negative ads that Hillary never ran. People are going to learn about the real Bernard Sanders.
 
I think there are more centrists, they are just split between Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar and Bloomberg. Bernie has a ceiling in the low 30's. Bloomberg is about to destroy him with the negative ads that Hillary never ran. People are going to learn about the real Bernard Sanders.

Um, can't you read the above? This poll said that if all of those "centrists" dropped out and he went head to head against Biden or Mayor Petey, Sanders still wins in a blowout. Head to head. The poll already assumed that the non-Bernie vote migrated to one single candidate vs Bernie and those were the results.

It's Socialism 2020 running in November.
 
Um, can't you read the above? This poll said that if all of those "centrists" dropped out and he went head to head against Biden or Mayor Petey, Sanders still wins in a blowout. Head to head. The poll already assumed that the non-Bernie vote migrated to one single candidate vs Bernie and those were the results.

It's Socialism 2020 running in November.

I wonder how long the party will last if they continue moving so far to the left. Could they survive 2 landslide defeats in a row? I really believe that sanders would lose in a way that's reminiscent of mondale. If they do the same thing in 2024, does the democrat party collapse?
 
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Um, can't you read the above? This poll said that if all of those "centrists" dropped out and he went head to head against Biden or Mayor Petey, Sanders still wins in a blowout. Head to head. The poll already assumed that the non-Bernie vote migrated to one single candidate vs Bernie and those were the results.

It's Socialism 2020 running in November.

You didn't link it so it has no credibility with me and you do have a history of exaggeration.
 
I wonder how long the party will last if they continue moving so far to the left. Could they survive 2 landslide defeats in a row? I really believe that sanders would lose in a way that's reminiscent of mondale. If they do the same thing in 2024, does the democrat party collapse?

Huh? They didn't lose in a landslide last time. If Bernie somehow gets the nomination, which I highly doubt he will, There will be a 3rd party centrist former Republican running (Romney, Weld, etc).
 
They won't do the same thing 2 times in a row. Losing changes strategy.
Idk, Bernie has a pretty good sized base and I could see them consolidating behind a like-kind candidate in 2024. Not enough to win a general election but definitely enough to contend in a primary.
 
I wonder how long the party will last if they continue moving so far to the left. Could they survive 2 landslide defeats in a row? I really believe that sanders would lose in a way that's reminiscent of mondale. If they do the same thing in 2024, does the democrat party collapse?

I don't know why you think that. Sanders leads Trump in basically every national poll at this point. Obviously it is a long way to the election, and state polls matter more than national polls, but I still don't understand why you think it would be some sort of historic blowout.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/e...s/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-6250.html
 
I don't know why you think that. Sanders leads Trump in basically every national poll at this point. Obviously it is a long way to the election, and state polls matter more than national polls, but I still don't understand why you think it would be some sort of historic blowout.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/e...s/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-6250.html

I just dont see states like michigan, wisconsin, Arizona, virginia, or Nevada going for a socialist. He's just a very extreme candidate for a time when the status quo seems acceptable for most people.
 
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I just dont see states like michigan, wisconsin, Arizona, virginia, or Nevada going for a socialist. He's just a very extreme candidate for a time when the status quo seems acceptable for most people.
Agree. People aren't looking for radical change and to burn the entire system down, unless you are losing.
 
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I just dont see states like michigan, wisconsin, Arizona, virginia, or Nevada going for a socialist. He's just a very extreme candidate for a time when the status quo seems acceptable for most people.

I don't really agree. He is running on a populist message just like Trump did (obviously from the other side, but still appeals to a lot of people), he fills up arenas and holds huge rallies just like Trump did, twitter and social media is full of Bernie supporters, etc. I don't know that he would win, but I think it would be an election that could go either way. I don't see any way he loses in the manner you are describing. And honestly, I think Democrats had the exact same feeling about Trump at this point in 2016, and ignored the massive support he was getting pretty much everywhere he went, and we see how that turned out.
 
I don't really agree. He is running on a populist message just like Trump did (obviously from the other side, but still appeals to a lot of people), he fills up arenas and holds huge rallies just like Trump did, twitter and social media is full of Bernie supporters, etc. I don't know that he would win, but I think it would be an election that could go either way. I don't see any way he loses in the manner you are describing. And honestly, I think Democrats had the exact same feeling about Trump at this point in 2016, and ignored the massive support he was getting pretty much everywhere he went, and we see how that turned out.

It wasn't just democrats that dismissed trump, people like me did as well. You brought up populism, and I do think that's what got trump elected. Bernie isnt a populist, he's very much a statist and when the RNC starts running ads against him people will see that.
 
It wasn't just democrats that dismissed trump, people like me did as well. You brought up populism, and I do think that's what got trump elected. Bernie isnt a populist, he's very much a statist and when the RNC starts running ads against him people will see that.

He is absolutely a populist and has a populist message.
If you dismissed Trump in 2016 then why would you repeat that and dismiss Bernie in 2020, when all of the evidence points to the idea that he shouldn't be dismissed?
 
I don't really agree. He is running on a populist message just like Trump did (obviously from the other side, but still appeals to a lot of people), he fills up arenas and holds huge rallies just like Trump did, twitter and social media is full of Bernie supporters, etc. I don't know that he would win, but I think it would be an election that could go either way. I don't see any way he loses in the manner you are describing. And honestly, I think Democrats had the exact same feeling about Trump at this point in 2016, and ignored the massive support he was getting pretty much everywhere he went, and we see how that turned out.

It would definitely be an entertaining election. Trump didn't "win" the 2016 election in as much as HRC "lost" the election. Trump (46.1%) performed worse than Romney (47.2%), HRC just really sucked compared to Obama.
 
He is absolutely a populist and has a populist message.
If you dismissed Trump in 2016 then why would you repeat that and dismiss Bernie in 2020, when all of the evidence points to the idea that he shouldn't be dismissed?

Because HRC isn't running.
 
He is absolutely a populist and has a populist message.
If you dismissed Trump in 2016 then why would you repeat that and dismiss Bernie in 2020, when all of the evidence points to the idea that he shouldn't be dismissed?
He has a populist message, but so did hillary and people saw through her. Bernie is a millionaire career politician that used campaign laws to his benefit to make himself rich. That picture wont resonate with actual populists who are pissed off about how politicians use their position to get rich. Trump is a very unique candidate because he became rich and never worked for the government. The RNC will run millions of dollars on ads describing this and make the case that he's the typical statist who gets rich off of the government and he wants even more authority on peoples lives at a time when most people feel like we are moving in the right direction. Incumbents always have an advantage right out of the gate, and the more comfortable people are, the less likely they are to change.
 
He has a populist message, but so did hillary and people saw through her. Bernie is a millionaire career politician that used campaign laws to his benefit to make himself rich. That picture wont resonate with actual populists who are pissed off about how politicians use their position to get rich. Trump is a very unique candidate because he became rich and never worked for the government. The RNC will run millions of dollars on ads describing this and make the case that he's the typical statist who gets rich off of the government and he wants even more authority on peoples lives at a time when most people feel like we are moving in the right direction. Incumbents always have an advantage right out of the gate, and the more comfortable people are, the less likely they are to change.

Bernie used campaign laws to make himself rich? You are going to need to provide some evidence of that.

Trump didn't "become" rich, he was born rich, and his entire presidency has been about helping the rich. So you think that is going to resonate with actual populists?

The RNC is going to run ads no matter who the opponent is, and the DNC is going to run ads as well, just like every election. The RNC is also going to paint any Dem they run against as a socialists or statist as you call it, so that wouldn't be any reason to shy away from Sanders.

I am not arguing Bernie would win, as I said, I think it would be close and could go either way. I am arguing against your idea he would lose 45 states, which I honestly think is absurd.
 
Bernie used campaign laws to make himself rich? You are going to need to provide some evidence of that.

Trump didn't "become" rich, he was born rich, and his entire presidency has been about helping the rich. So you think that is going to resonate with actual populists?

The RNC is going to run ads no matter who the opponent is, and the DNC is going to run ads as well, just like every election. The RNC is also going to paint any Dem they run against as a socialists or statist as you call it, so that wouldn't be any reason to shy away from Sanders.

I am not arguing Bernie would win, as I said, I think it would be close and could go either way. I am arguing against your idea he would lose 45 states, which I honestly think is absurd.

https://www.limitstogrowth.org/arti...-became-a-millionaire-by-scamming-government/

He created a job for his wife so that they could funnel money out of the campaign as a media buyer.
 
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Bernie used campaign laws to make himself rich? You are going to need to provide some evidence of that.

Trump didn't "become" rich, he was born rich, and his entire presidency has been about helping the rich. So you think that is going to resonate with actual populists?

The RNC is going to run ads no matter who the opponent is, and the DNC is going to run ads as well, just like every election. The RNC is also going to paint any Dem they run against as a socialists or statist as you call it, so that wouldn't be any reason to shy away from Sanders.

I am not arguing Bernie would win, as I said, I think it would be close and could go either way. I am arguing against your idea he would lose 45 states, which I honestly think is absurd.

I didnt say he would win 45 states, I asked 85 how many he thought trump.would win. I see a legitimate path to 38 but i could see it going higher.
 
Pete Schwiezer has been accused of plagiarism and just making stuff up countless times, so unless he can provide some support of that then I am not just going to take his word for it.
Is this another one of those deals where you say you dont believe something because of the source only to find out later that the source was correct? Yep.
 
I didnt say he would win 45 states, I asked 85 how many he thought trump.would win. I see a legitimate path to 38 but i could see it going higher.

Ok, so Trump won 30 states in 2016. What are the 8 states Trump lost that you think he would win this time to get to 38?
 
Bernie used campaign laws to make himself rich? You are going to need to provide some evidence of that.

Trump didn't "become" rich, he was born rich, and his entire presidency has been about helping the rich. So you think that is going to resonate with actual populists?

The RNC is going to run ads no matter who the opponent is, and the DNC is going to run ads as well, just like every election. The RNC is also going to paint any Dem they run against as a socialists or statist as you call it, so that wouldn't be any reason to shy away from Sanders.

I am not arguing Bernie would win, as I said, I think it would be close and could go either way. I am arguing against your idea he would lose 45 states, which I honestly think is absurd.

Every economic class of citizens in this country is better off now than they were 4 years ago, but here you are throwing around worthless tropes like "his entire presidency has been about helping the rich". Incredible.
 
Is this another one of those deals where you say you dont believe something because of the source only to find out later that the source was correct? Yep.

Then provide me the information that shows its correct. Do you expect me to believe a known partisan liar just because you say so? That interview provided absolutely zero evidence it was true, you just choose to believe, and I would like to see more evidence, which isn't unreasonable in the slightest.
 
Since you backed yourself into a corner and didn't just admit you refused to read the content, here is your precious link for you to also not read.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/me...it-national-lead-n1138191?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_np

When you post an article it is your responsibility to provide the link, everyone knows this, and it isn't that difficult to post a link, so instead of having people ask you for a link constantly, why not just post it to begin with?
 
Ok, so Trump won 30 states in 2016. What are the 8 states Trump lost that you think he would win this time to get to 38?
Nevada, new Mexico, colorado, minnesota, maryland, Maine, New Hampshire, virginia. I could see Rhode island and new Jersey being extremely close. I don't see Trump winning the west coast in any scenario but the upper northeast will be in general much more in play outside of Vermont.
 
When you post an article it is your responsibility to provide the link, everyone knows this, and it isn't that difficult to post a link, so instead of having people ask you for a link constantly, why not just post it to begin with?

lol I didn't post an "article", I posted 2 paragraphs relevant to the conversation. I guess this is the response I should expect when the linked information doesn't set well with you. Needless crying and whining.
 
Was that so difficult?

No, no it wasn't.

So glad I could provide the exact same writing in a link that you already had readily available.

Now, feel free to admit that your original premise and comment above was wrong.
 
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