Gun ownership background investigation

[OmniKnight]

So in order to fully exercise my 2nd amendment right and with the growing threats of foreign and domestic terrorism, I went a couple weekends ago and took the safety course required to obtain CWP. Decided to go to a private instructor based on recommendation... and the guy was a certifiable looney tune. Crazy to the tune of spending 90 to 95 percent of the class time standing on a political soap box and going an hour over time with his tirade. I didn't disagree with a good portion of his assertions... But what the actual f***? I was there to receive education and training, and I received a day full of political preaching from a whack job?

The more concerning element was the class full of utter buffoons that were handed certificates at the end. Im talking about a Hispanic guy that smelled to all hell sitting in the back of the room playing on his phone all day, a middle aged woman with sage legal advice that you should "drag them back in your house" after shooting a fleeing burglar in the back, to an old white fart proclaiming that no group of "hoodlums" was taking control of his property and getting away with it. Out of the entire class of 20+ and the instructor, there was a sum total of two people I trusted to actually be packing: one @35 year old Hispanic guy and his wife.

This country is full of bat shit crazy and downright stupid people. Should we consider instituting a couple of additional preconditions for gun ownership? One or all of the following seem intuitive:

1) Mandatory mental health screening by a licensed professional. The current CWP exclusion based on mental disability is predicated on existing diagnosis. An undiagnosed lunatic can currently both obtain a CWP, and buy and carry a handgun with no waiting period. This simply cannot continue.

2) Mandatory intelligence quotient evaluation by a licensed professional. I'm not talking about a written test or something that could exclude a segment based on education level. I'm talking raw intelligence. Forgive the pejorative, but retards should not have guns in their hands, and intelligence is required to effectively exercise judgment.

3) Mandatory drug and alcohol screening. Chemically intoxicated people have no business possessing a firearm.

One absolute condition: Evaluating authorities cannot receive any funding from state or federal governments in any form.

 

[UCFBS]

I'd argue we'd just prosecute those who commit a felony by lying on their forms using existing law.

According to this 2010 study, of the thousands who commit fraud on their form (a felony), less than 1.4% are actually investigated and charged.
- https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf

In other words ... the federal government has shown it is incapable of enforcing existing law.

I also recently suggested that we do modify the procedure for those who are on the "no fly list."

I.e., it's so easy to get on the "no fly list," but so difficult to get off, filling out the form and triggering a NCIC look-up causes ...

1. The individual to fill out another form
2. This new form triggers an audit, while they go on a "waiting list"
3. The individual is then investigated and interviewed
4. The result either ...
   1. [non-citizen] they remain on the "no fly list," and are not granted the right to purchase a firearm
   2. [citizen] cleared and removes them from the "no fly list" (given a readdress number), while granting them the right to purchase a firearm, or
   3. [citizen and non-citizen] they are arrested and charged with a crime -- whether for fraud on the forms, or they are a credible threat to the US (again, must be charged with an actual crime, even if just fraud for lying on the forms)
5. The "no fly list" actually becomes useful and more accurate as a result

Everyone wins in this scenario.

 

[OmniKnight]

The no fly list is government administered which infringes upon second amendment rights

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

I don't agree on the mental health screening. You get doctors with agendas and once you fail a psych eval it's always in your file.

 

[OmniKnight]

I don't agree on the mental health screening. You get doctors with agendas and once you fail a psych eval it's always always in your file.

would you be okay with it if such doctors were subject to an annual professional practice audit?

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

would you be okay with it if such doctors were subject to an annual professional practice audit?

I don't see what that would change. How do you prove or disprove a mental health disorder? It's subjective. There is no way to standardize testing for it. You'll have to multiple opinions and then go before a judge and perhaps a jury.

 

[fabknight]

Which classes of mental illnesses would prevent me from owning a gun? I would also suspect that many mental disorders could develop well after purchase of a weapon.

The main classes of mental illness are:

• Neurodevelopmental disorders. This class covers a wide range of problems that usually begin in infancy or childhood, often before the child begins grade school. Examples include autism spectrum disorder, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and learning disorders.
• Schizophrenia spectrum and other psychotic disorders.Psychotic disorders cause detachment from reality — such as delusions, hallucinations, and disorganized thinking and speech. The most notable example is schizophrenia, although other classes of disorders can be associated with detachment from reality at times.
• Bipolar and related disorders. This class includes disorders with alternating episodes of mania — periods of excessive activity, energy and excitement — and depression.
• Depressive disorders. These include disorders that affect how you feel emotionally, such as the level of sadness and happiness, and they can disrupt your ability to function. Examples include major depressive disorder and premenstrual dysphoric disorder.
• Anxiety disorders. Anxiety is an emotion characterized by the anticipation of future danger or misfortune, along with excessive worrying. It can include behavior aimed at avoiding situations that cause anxiety. This class includes generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder and phobias.
• Obsessive-compulsive and related disorders. These disorders involve preoccupations or obsessions and repetitive thoughts and actions. Examples include obsessive-compulsive disorder, hoarding disorder and hair-pulling disorder (trichotillomania).
• Trauma- and stressor-related disorders. These are adjustment disorders in which a person has trouble coping during or after a stressful life event. Examples include post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and acute stress disorder.
• Dissociative disorders. These are disorders in which your sense of self is disrupted, such as with dissociative identity disorder and dissociative amnesia.
• Somatic symptom and related disorders. A person with one of these disorders may have physical symptoms with no clear medical cause, but the disorders are associated with significant distress and impairment. The disorders include somatic symptom disorder (previously known as hypochondriasis) and factitious disorder.
• Feeding and eating disorders. These disorders include disturbances related to eating, such as anorexia nervosa and binge-eating disorder.
• Elimination disorders. These disorders relate to the inappropriate elimination of urine or stool by accident or on purpose. Bedwetting (enuresis) is an example.
• Sleep-wake disorders. These are disorders of sleep severe enough to require clinical attention, such as insomnia, sleep apnea and restless legs syndrome.
• Sexual dysfunctions. These include disorders of sexual response, such as premature ejaculation and female orgasmic disorder.
• Gender dysphoria. This refers to the distress that accompanies a person's stated desire to be another gender.
• Disruptive, impulse-control and conduct disorders. These disorders include problems with emotional and behavioral self-control, such as kleptomania or intermittent explosive disorder.
• Substance-related and addictive disorders. These include problems associated with the excessive use of alcohol, caffeine, tobacco and drugs. This class also includes gambling disorder.
• Neurocognitive disorders. Neurocognitive disorders affect your ability to think and reason. These acquired (rather than developmental) cognitive problems include delirium, as well as neurocognitive disorders due to conditions or diseases such as traumatic brain injury or Alzheimer's disease.
• Personality disorders. A personality disorder involves a lasting pattern of emotional instability and unhealthy behavior that causes problems in your life and relationships. Examples include borderline, antisocial and narcissistic personality disorders.
• Paraphilic disorders. These disorders include sexual interest that causes personal distress or impairment or causes potential or actual harm to another person. Examples are sexual sadism disorder, voyeuristic disorder and pedophilic disorder.
• Other mental disorders. This class includes mental disorders that are due to other medical conditions or that don't meet the full criteria for one of the above disorders

 

[UCFBS]

The no fly list is government administered which infringes upon second amendment rights

Yep. Which is why it's only good for airports, as you don't have an inalienable right to fly, according to the legal system.

Part of the argument to extend it to gun purchases by the left is to purposely expand that power over a guaranteed right ... and they would expand that list as a result. Seems laughable, but a trip back through the argument against the Social Security number ... let alone what DHS does today ... provides the reality that many times things are enacted under a statement they will never be used in a way, which they very much are.

Remember when the Brady Foundation promised the ACLU it would never argue that law abiding citizens would have their information kept in the NCIC more than 90-days? What does the Brady Foundation continue to argue for today? Why is the ACLU so staunchly against virtually anything the Brady Foundation suggests today ... the same things the President is now arguing for?

 

[UCFhonors]

So in order to fully exercise my 2nd amendment right and with the growing threats of foreign and domestic terrorism, I went a couple weekends ago and took the safety course required to obtain CWP. Decided to go to a private instructor based on recommendation... and the guy was a certifiable looney tune. Crazy to the tune of spending 90 to 95 percent of the class time standing on a political soap box and going an hour over time with his tirade. I didn't disagree with a good portion of his assertions... But what the actual f***? I was there to receive education and training, and I received a day full of political preaching from a whack job?

The more concerning element was the class full of utter buffoons that were handed certificates at the end. Im talking about a Hispanic guy that smelled to all hell sitting in the back of the room playing on his phone all day, a middle aged woman with sage legal advice that you should "drag them back in your house" after shooting a fleeing burglar in the back, to an old white fart proclaiming that no group of "hoodlums" was taking control of his property and getting away with it. Out of the entire class of 20+ and the instructor, there was a sum total of two people I trusted to actually be packing: one @35 year old Hispanic guy and his wife.

This country is full of bat shit crazy and downright stupid people. Should we consider instituting a couple of additional preconditions for gun ownership? One or all of the following seem intuitive:

1) Mandatory mental health screening by a licensed professional. The current CWP exclusion based on mental disability is predicated on existing diagnosis. An undiagnosed lunatic can currently both obtain a CWP, and buy and carry a handgun with no waiting period. This simply cannot continue.

2) Mandatory intelligence quotient evaluation by a licensed professional. I'm not talking about a written test or something that could exclude a segment based on education level. I'm talking raw intelligence. Forgive the pejorative, but retards should not have guns in their hands, and intelligence is required to effectively exercise judgment.

3) Mandatory drug and alcohol screening. Chemically intoxicated people have no business possessing a firearm.

One absolute condition: Evaluating authorities cannot receive any funding from state or federal governments in any form.

Haha. It's funny what people will come up with to hate on the 2nd amendment.

Let's just change the 2nd amendment from Right to bear arms to Govt may grant a select few to purchase a gun bc we all know that people can own whatever they want without a govt permission slip to buy or sell something.

 

[UCFhonors]

I don't see what that would change. How do you prove or disprove a mental health disorder? It's subjective. There is no way to standardize testing for it. You'll have to multiple opinions and then go before a judge and perhaps a jury.

All you would have to do is have standardized testing yearly in govt indoctrination camps... I mean public schools.

 

[OmniKnight]

I don't see what that would change. How do you prove or disprove a mental health disorder? It's subjective. There is no way to standardize testing for it. You'll have to multiple opinions and then go before a judge and perhaps a jury.

Bob, you defer to licensed professional opinion. Subjectivity is acceptable to the threshold of licensure and professional practice. I do like the idea of required annual professional practice audits though.

Which classes of mental illnesses would prevent me from owning a gun? I would also suspect that many mental disorders could develop well after purchase of a weapon.

The main classes of mental illness are:

• Neurodevelopmental disorders. This class covers a wide range of problems that usually begin in infancy or childhood, often before the child begins grade school. Examples include autism spectrum disorder, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and learning disorders.
• Schizophrenia spectrum and other psychotic disorders.Psychotic disorders cause detachment from reality — such as delusions, hallucinations, and disorganized thinking and speech. The most notable example is schizophrenia, although other classes of disorders can be associated with detachment from reality at times.
• Bipolar and related disorders. This class includes disorders with alternating episodes of mania — periods of excessive activity, energy and excitement — and depression.
• Depressive disorders. These include disorders that affect how you feel emotionally, such as the level of sadness and happiness, and they can disrupt your ability to function. Examples include major depressive disorder and premenstrual dysphoric disorder.
• Anxiety disorders. Anxiety is an emotion characterized by the anticipation of future danger or misfortune, along with excessive worrying. It can include behavior aimed at avoiding situations that cause anxiety. This class includes generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder and phobias.
• Obsessive-compulsive and related disorders. These disorders involve preoccupations or obsessions and repetitive thoughts and actions. Examples include obsessive-compulsive disorder, hoarding disorder and hair-pulling disorder (trichotillomania).
• Trauma- and stressor-related disorders. These are adjustment disorders in which a person has trouble coping during or after a stressful life event. Examples include post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and acute stress disorder.
• Dissociative disorders. These are disorders in which your sense of self is disrupted, such as with dissociative identity disorder and dissociative amnesia.
• Somatic symptom and related disorders. A person with one of these disorders may have physical symptoms with no clear medical cause, but the disorders are associated with significant distress and impairment. The disorders include somatic symptom disorder (previously known as hypochondriasis) and factitious disorder.
• Feeding and eating disorders. These disorders include disturbances related to eating, such as anorexia nervosa and binge-eating disorder.
• Elimination disorders. These disorders relate to the inappropriate elimination of urine or stool by accident or on purpose. Bedwetting (enuresis) is an example.
• Sleep-wake disorders. These are disorders of sleep severe enough to require clinical attention, such as insomnia, sleep apnea and restless legs syndrome.
• Sexual dysfunctions. These include disorders of sexual response, such as premature ejaculation and female orgasmic disorder.
• Gender dysphoria. This refers to the distress that accompanies a person's stated desire to be another gender.
• Disruptive, impulse-control and conduct disorders. These disorders include problems with emotional and behavioral self-control, such as kleptomania or intermittent explosive disorder.
• Substance-related and addictive disorders. These include problems associated with the excessive use of alcohol, caffeine, tobacco and drugs. This class also includes gambling disorder.
• Neurocognitive disorders. Neurocognitive disorders affect your ability to think and reason. These acquired (rather than developmental) cognitive problems include delirium, as well as neurocognitive disorders due to conditions or diseases such as traumatic brain injury or Alzheimer's disease.
• Personality disorders. A personality disorder involves a lasting pattern of emotional instability and unhealthy behavior that causes problems in your life and relationships. Examples include borderline, antisocial and narcissistic personality disorders.
• Paraphilic disorders. These disorders include sexual interest that causes personal distress or impairment or causes potential or actual harm to another person. Examples are sexual sadism disorder, voyeuristic disorder and pedophilic disorder.
• Other mental disorders. This class includes mental disorders that are due to other medical conditions or that don't meet the full criteria for one of the above disorders

Great post, fab. Institution would require determination of which disorder types were disqualifying. Things like schizophrenia and bipolarism are definitely in there, whereas involuntary s***ing of pants is probably not a big deal.

And you're right - You do need to make it semi-annual or annual checkup type of thing. Think of it as a new gun tax that will create jobs at expense of the gun owner. Of course the LLT's who want all s*** free will scream racist or 99%, they'll need to choose between that and effective gun control (see what happened there?)

What effective gun control is not: Limitations on type of weapons or caliber of bullets, faulty safety devices (trigger locks: lol), or bull**** safety courses led by idiots with no effective license of any sort

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

Bob, you defer to licensed professional opinion. Subjectivity is acceptable to the threshold of licensure and professional practice. I do like the idea of required annual professional practice audits though.

Not when more than half of their revenue comes from the government. People on the government tit should not decide when law abiding citizens lose their rights. I agree mental health and stupidity is an issue but the government can't be the one that decides or has influence.

 

[Knight_Light]

I don't see what that would change. How do you prove or disprove a mental health disorder? It's subjective. There is no way to standardize testing for it. You'll have to multiple opinions and then go before a judge and perhaps a jury.

Great point.

Heck, you have Family Practitioners/GP's, who are not specialized in psychiatry, diagnosing and prescribing millions of scrips for anti-psychotic meds.

There is such a fine line to those that improve by pill poppers vs those that get healthier with just basic psycho therapy.

That's one thing with Obamacare is that the US Govt will be gaining a lot more access to everyone's health coverage (its already tied to the IRS), so what will they do with all the info in the future?

 

[Sir Galahad]

So in order to fully exercise my 2nd amendment right and with the growing threats of foreign and domestic terrorism, I went a couple weekends ago and took the safety course required to obtain CWP. Decided to go to a private instructor based on recommendation... and the guy was a certifiable looney tune. Crazy to the tune of spending 90 to 95 percent of the class time standing on a political soap box and going an hour over time with his tirade. I didn't disagree with a good portion of his assertions... But what the actual f***? I was there to receive education and training, and I received a day full of political preaching from a whack job?

The more concerning element was the class full of utter buffoons that were handed certificates at the end. Im talking about a Hispanic guy that smelled to all hell sitting in the back of the room playing on his phone all day, a middle aged woman with sage legal advice that you should "drag them back in your house" after shooting a fleeing burglar in the back, to an old white fart proclaiming that no group of "hoodlums" was taking control of his property and getting away with it. Out of the entire class of 20+ and the instructor, there was a sum total of two people I trusted to actually be packing: one @35 year old Hispanic guy and his wife.

This country is full of bat shit crazy and downright stupid people. Should we consider instituting a couple of additional preconditions for gun ownership? One or all of the following seem intuitive:

1) Mandatory mental health screening by a licensed professional. The current CWP exclusion based on mental disability is predicated on existing diagnosis. An undiagnosed lunatic can currently both obtain a CWP, and buy and carry a handgun with no waiting period. This simply cannot continue.

2) Mandatory intelligence quotient evaluation by a licensed professional. I'm not talking about a written test or something that could exclude a segment based on education level. I'm talking raw intelligence. Forgive the pejorative, but retards should not have guns in their hands, and intelligence is required to effectively exercise judgment.

3) Mandatory drug and alcohol screening. Chemically intoxicated people have no business possessing a firearm.

One absolute condition: Evaluating authorities cannot receive any funding from state or federal governments in any form.

I'd be okay with that as long as those same standards were used to get government jobs.

 

[UCFBS]

That's one thing with Obamacare is that the US Govt will be gaining a lot more access to everyone's health coverage (its already tied to the IRS), so what will they do with all the info in the future?

This was my #2 complaint with the ACA. That it only strengthens the government's invasion into our privacy.

My #1 complaint, along with many states, was the fact that the President used the Interstate Commerce Clause to push the financial liability on to the states, to say it would "cost nothing." The US Supreme Court smacked that term down pretty hard, setting the precedent that the US Federal Government cannot use the Clause to enact fiscal liabilities on the states.

In fact, they even stated it was a program by the US Federal government, so it had to be funded by the US Federal government, as a "tax" -- which upset the left and President, because that's exactly what the right said it was.

 

[OmniKnight]

Not when more than half of their revenue comes from the government. People on the government tit should not decide when law abiding citizens lose their rights. I agree mental health and stupidity is an issue but the government can't be the one that decides or has influence.

See OP: "One absolute condition: Evaluating authorities cannot receive any funding from state or federal governments in any form."

 

[OmniKnight]

I'd be okay with that as long as those same standards were used to get government jobs.

It's funny how certain government jobs (e.g. intelligence agencies) require these prerequsites, and the rest do not.

 

[OmniKnight]

Great point.

Heck, you have Family Practitioners/GP's, who are not specialized in psychiatry, diagnosing and prescribing millions of scrips for anti-psychotic meds.

There is such a fine line to those that improve by pill poppers vs those that get healthier with just basic psycho therapy.

That's one thing with Obamacare is that the US Govt will be gaining a lot more access to everyone's health coverage (its already tied to the IRS), so what will they do with all the info in the future?

Good post KL. A ton more research, resources, and refinement need to go into the practice of mental health treatment in this country.

Obamacare is truly terrifying. Anyone who wants the government to control their health information or health care is completely irrational.

 

[UCFWayne]

I think your intentions are in the right place Omni. No one wants people with serious mental illness to have access to guns. I think perhaps if a mental health expert could narrow it down to which types were the most untrust worthy to have a gun I might be ok with that. From there if you have been diagnosed, you cant purchase new fire arms until you have been cleared. The clearing process would need to be well defined.

Cant really do anything about the second point. Just look at all these retarded kids in prestigious colleges around the country protesting. They had to be pretty smart to get into colleges like Yale, but somehow they cant use common sense.

Im ok with the third point on principle. However, it would cost too much to implement. I think the gun store owners should be able to use their discretion.