Judge blocks Trump's effort to list drug prices

[beelit47]

If someone can give me a reason why insurers and hospitals both agree to keep this secret that doesn't involve screwing patients I would love to hear it.

Ill give you my best guess based on my insurance background which doesnt include health insurance. In property&casualty insurance insurers can price easier based to risk by looking at actuarial data, loss experience, and even credit to determine rates. For example, in florida the homeowners market makes alot of money for decades and then much of it is wiped out from one storm. So insurers need to stack money when they experience good years and reinvest it to offset bad years and keep premiums reasonable because after all, if people cant afford the insurance then it unravels.

So with health insurance i tend to think of it as more of a bucket of money that you will draw from often, especially for those who need prescription drug coverage because you as an insured arent sustaining a catatrophic loss but merely using the insurance to cover a portion or all of your drug costs. This is very much against every law of insurance. Having said all of that, i suspect drug companies and doctors may be lining their pockets and manipulating their costs to insurance companies. I dont have proof of this but this did happen a few years ago when body repair shops were overbilling insurers for fender benders.

Long response for you, but crazyhole i would support your thought that drug companies may have something to hide...

 

[UCFBS]

First off ... we Libertarians agree with Trump ... for the current system, disclosure is actual, real 'regulation.' I'm tired of 'control' asked as 'regulation' and people calling for 'banning' or 'takeovers.' The ACA was a perfect example of making everything worse, as was the purposeful intent of its architect. It's why Obama's promises were all, and quickly, broken.

Secondly ... why can't we try the Swiss system, instead of heading right into the worst of the UK NIH system (far worse than Canada's) where they virtually make it illegal to have overseas procedures? The Swiss have one of the best combinations of free market with government fallback, which would fit perfectly into the US environment, while reducing overhead and non-sense costs. We've never had free market healthcare in the US.

Why Switzerland Has the Best Healthcare System in the Worl
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/he...est-healthcare-system-in-the-world/ar-BBV4MJG​

Third ... it's not even really 'Medicare for All,' as it eliminates virtually all of the benefits of 'supplementary plans' that exist today for Medicare. Even the far-left Huffington Post pointed out that Democratic voters are massively oblivious to what it entails, and think the opposite.

Democratic Voters Don’t Actually Understand ‘Medicare For All,’ New Report Says​

They have some pretty important misconceptions, though the political implications aren’t clear.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/medicare-for-all-poll-democrats_n_5d08264de4b0886dd15db364

Lastly ... Americans, especially those who watch the US Mainstream Media, are absolutely too ignorant to debate this. Meanwhile, the current Republican Party utterly lost their early '90s foundation on free market healthcare, as the ACA -- as purposely designed by its architect -- was to make Americans hate the idea of a 'marketplace.' He won in a landslide, and the Republican Party is too timid to argue what needs to happen.

That's why we're screwed. We're arguing narratives over solutions. Both sides are utterly blabbing about nothing real.

 

[UCFBS]

Ill give you my best guess based on my insurance background which doesnt include health insurance. In property&casualty insurance insurers can price easier based to risk by looking at actuarial data, loss experience, and even credit to determine rates. For example, in florida the homeowners market makes alot of money for decades and then much of it is wiped out from one storm. So insurers need to stack money when they experience good years and reinvest it to offset bad years and keep premiums reasonable because after all, if people cant afford the insurance then it unravels.

Which is why I invested in Whole Life, Universal Life and Term Life -- all 3 -- Insurance policies starting in my late teens. I got group rates through a 300,000 member organization, and my premiums are on a fixed schedule and less than 1/10th what people pay at my age today.

If we approached Health Care in the same way, and actually allowed Free Market, then everything would change. Young people investing in their future health. The HSA were supposed to be this, but they are not remotely the same, because they have to be paired with a HDHP. But even in that case, most people don't look at HSA like they should, although the few people I now who have been in a HSA since inception have saved up 50-100K after ~15 years for future costs.

So with health insurance i tend to think of it as more of a bucket of money that you will draw from often, especially for those who need prescription drug coverage because you as an insured arent sustaining a catatrophic loss but merely using the insurance to cover a portion or all of your drug costs. This is very much against every law of insurance. Having said all of that, i suspect drug companies and doctors may be lining their pockets and manipulating their costs to insurance companies. I dont have proof of this but this did happen a few years ago when body repair shops were overbilling insurers for fender benders.

Long response for you, but crazyhole i would support your thought that drug companies may have something to hide...

We need to get back to 'regulation' instead of this 'control' non-sense.

But yes, the problem with too many Americans is that they even see things like Whole Life and Universal Life as 'not good investments,' because they don't make as much money as the market. Of course they don't, because they have to pay out every now and then for a reason. People die, that's the 'insurance policy' aspect, not just a 'simple investment.' Same concept.

It doesn't matter if the market or government does it, someone has to pay. Kinda reminds me of the Meme about the July 4th military parade (which I was against) ... Democrats complain it cost $90M, but Republicans complain it was 'free' using Democratic logic, because the government paid for it. Truth.

 

[beelit47]

Which is why I invested in Whole Life, Universal Life and Term Life -- all 3 -- Insurance policies starting in my late teens. I got group rates through a 300,000 member organization, and my premiums are on a fixed schedule and less than 1/10th what people pay at my age today.

If we approached Health Care in the same way, and actually allowed Free Market, then everything would change. Young people investing in their future health. The HSA were supposed to be this, but they are not remotely the same, because they have to be paired with a HDHP. But even in that case, most people don't look at HSA like they should, although the few people I now who have been in a HSA since inception have saved up 50-100K after ~15 years for future costs.

We need to get back to 'regulation' instead of this 'control' non-sense.

But yes, the problem with too many Americans is that they even see things like Whole Life and Universal Life as 'not good investments,' because they don't make as much money as the market. Of course they don't, because they have to pay out every now and then for a reason. People die, that's the 'insurance policy' aspect, not just a 'simple investment.' Same concept.

It doesn't matter if the market or government does it, someone has to pay. Kinda reminds me of the Meme about the July 4th military parade (which I was against) ... Democrats complain it cost $90M, but Republicans complain it was 'free' using Democratic logic, because the government paid for it. Truth.

Great comment. Unfortunately we live in a world where we dont teach kids about finances or insurance but teach them instead that everything is free and go ahead and run up 100k in student loans for us to tell you this. I tell this to parents all the time “how are you going to save for college for your kids when you havent even protected your income making ability”?

 

[UCFBS]

Great comment. Unfortunately we live in a world where we dont teach kids about finances or insurance but teach them instead that everything is free and go ahead and run up 100k in student loans for us to tell you this. I tell this to parents all the time “how are you going to save for college for your kids when you havent even protected your income making ability”?

We 100% agree here.

And the sad thing? We cannot legislate away ignorance. At most we can support public education, but not eternally, and definitely not where it gets abused (even vouchers are up for debate).

That's why the Libertarian reality still always applies ... consumer ignorance is never an excuse. We must remain educated to be free.

 

[Crazyhole]

Ill give you my best guess based on my insurance background which doesnt include health insurance. In property&casualty insurance insurers can price easier based to risk by looking at actuarial data, loss experience, and even credit to determine rates. For example, in florida the homeowners market makes alot of money for decades and then much of it is wiped out from one storm. So insurers need to stack money when they experience good years and reinvest it to offset bad years and keep premiums reasonable because after all, if people cant afford the insurance then it unravels.

So with health insurance i tend to think of it as more of a bucket of money that you will draw from often, especially for those who need prescription drug coverage because you as an insured arent sustaining a catatrophic loss but merely using the insurance to cover a portion or all of your drug costs. This is very much against every law of insurance. Having said all of that, i suspect drug companies and doctors may be lining their pockets and manipulating their costs to insurance companies. I dont have proof of this but this did happen a few years ago when body repair shops were overbilling insurers for fender benders.

Long response for you, but crazyhole i would support your thought that drug companies may have something to hide...

It isn't just drug companies, it's also hospitals and insurers. Drug companies and hospitals want more money because it directly affects their bottom line. Totally makes sense too. Insurance companies want prices to increase because if they do, then they can raise premium rates and give them a bigger pool of money to re-invest in the interim. Again, makes total sense. I suppose a big part of it is that when a person has to go to the ER, they aren't thinking about money and just give up their economic interest in the transaction so it is quite a bit different than a property insurance policy where someone thinks things through a little bit ahead of time. If my car gets a couple of hail dents I'm going to weigh the benefits of making a claim a few days later as opposed to if I have kidney stones and need painkillers right now. I don't care if they cost 5 bucks or 500 bucks if someone else is paying for it. That's what got us where we are today and going with single payer will have one of only two outcomes: taxes have to go up to cover the increase in payouts (because who really cares what it costs) or the government has to curb costs by restricting what providers can charge and what they are allowed to do. It's as simple as that.

The real issue at hand is that the consumer has just given up on the idea of the free market and walked away from their power as an equal in the basic law of supply and demand. We have just gotten to the point where we accept the idea that having a surgery is going to cost 5000 bucks an hour or more for a surgeon plus another 10000 bucks for an overnight stay in a hospital bed. Or that having a doctor deliver a baby should be worth 3000 bucks in his pocket and the room you stay in for 24 hours is worth another 20000. It's just insane. Yes, it's specialized work that takes training but so are dozens of other professions that don't have the benefit of having a 3rd payer system. The work that I do is pretty specialized and takes a lot of training and experience but there is no way possible that I could ever go to a customer and have them say "I don't care what it costs because someone else is paying for it". No, the market dictates value and the healthcare industry has been totally screwed up by the fact that 3rd party payers got involved.

 

[beelit47]

It isn't just drug companies, it's also hospitals and insurers. Drug companies and hospitals want more money because it directly affects their bottom line. Totally makes sense too. Insurance companies want prices to increase because if they do, then they can raise premium rates and give them a bigger pool of money to re-invest in the interim. Again, makes total sense. I suppose a big part of it is that when a person has to go to the ER, they aren't thinking about money and just give up their economic interest in the transaction so it is quite a bit different than a property insurance policy where someone thinks things through a little bit ahead of time. If my car gets a couple of hail dents I'm going to weigh the benefits of making a claim a few days later as opposed to if I have kidney stones and need painkillers right now. I don't care if they cost 5 bucks or 500 bucks if someone else is paying for it. That's what got us where we are today and going with single payer will have one of only two outcomes: taxes have to go up to cover the increase in payouts (because who really cares what it costs) or the government has to curb costs by restricting what providers can charge and what they are allowed to do. It's as simple as that.

The real issue at hand is that the consumer has just given up on the idea of the free market and walked away from their power as an equal in the basic law of supply and demand. We have just gotten to the point where we accept the idea that having a surgery is going to cost 5000 bucks an hour or more for a surgeon plus another 10000 bucks for an overnight stay in a hospital bed. Or that having a doctor deliver a baby should be worth 3000 bucks in his pocket and the room you stay in for 24 hours is worth another 20000. It's just insane. Yes, it's specialized work that takes training but so are dozens of other professions that don't have the benefit of having a 3rd payer system. The work that I do is pretty specialized and takes a lot of training and experience but there is no way possible that I could ever go to a customer and have them say "I don't care what it costs because someone else is paying for it". No, the market dictates value and the healthcare industry has been totally screwed up by the fact that 3rd party payers got involved.

Follow the profit margins. The insurers is likely a net loss but by investing premiums they can turn a small profit margin. The drug companies are able to freely set their own prices and hospitals can upcharge everything knowing the bill is going to insurance. Level the playing field for all of these players and increase competition