My fellow Americans, our great national nightmare is over ...http://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2016/11/21/13677648/jurgen-klinsmann-fired-usa-soccer-usmnt
Jurgen Out!
- Thread starter HuffyCane
- Start date
Tab through the Hex, then somebody new. Marcelo Bielsa would be magic. Arena had his chance and shot his wad. He needs to retire -- just like the players he brought up. Landon, DMB, and the others.
Vermes is intriguing. Former USMNT legend. Played in Europe. Played and coached here to an MLS Cup. Fluent in Spanish. Reputation for bringing up young players and attacking soccer. USA would have some balls again. Bringing Arena back just sounds like a nightmare.
I really liked Jurgen. But it did seem like time to move on. I'm more worried about who is next.
Marcelo Bielsa is too old.
Vermes, that could be interesting.
At least we have some time before our next major match.
U.S. Soccer is in negotiations with Bruce Arena to return to coach the national team, according to ESPN FC sources, after it was announced that Jurgen Klinsmann was relieved of his duties on Monday.
Why would you say that? Im totally ok with the door hitting him on the way out. Apparently none of us know anything about soccer.
I've watched the past 20 years. The team wasn't any better under Arena, he doesn't deserve a second chance.
At least he doesnt constantly play players out of position and then throw them under the bus when they dont preform as well.
Im betting it is a one year deal to mentor Tab through the Hex and get him ready for the World Cup.
Ramos worked his way up from coaching Under 10s, but he has never been the head coach of a senior side. Going into a World Cup like that would be scary. Klinsmann brought him along and mentored him, but I doubt seriously he did anything to prepare him.
Arena has been talking about retiring for two years now and if you believe the rumor mill, has been talking to USSF about coming back for more than a year now. Im betting he likes the 3 days a week schedule (at most) of just coaching the national team, but doesnt want the responsibility of getting them ready or failing. So he logic says he is a place holder.
As for other options, US Soccer doesnt have any. Ignore any talk of a big name coming in. Even small names like Martinez, Moyes, Cappello, etc. are pipe dreams.
First, USSF can't afford it.
Second, even if they could, they could never pull the trigger. Decisions are not made in a vacuum. The Women won't shut up about Klinsmann being paid $3 million and them getting less per diem than the male players (ignoring the fact that they negotiated less so they could be paid for other things), yada, yada, yada.
The cold sad reality is that the USMNT will never be able to spend the money necessary to compete at the highest level because our society's values are different than our competition. So long as Germany and Argentina can throw nearly all their resources into the men and still roll out a serviceable women's side, they will do so. Meanwhile, we get bogged down in arguments over equal laundry allowance on the road (no Im not kidding) and whether men can drive vans drunk on team trips and not get kicked off the team. So the playing field for the men will never be fair against their competition as long as the women compete against the men here at home.
The reality is that Jurgen was not fired because he sucked as a coach. He was fired because he sucked as a coach and the women were upset at the return on the investment and it was no longer politically viable for Gulati to keep him on under the circumstances.
Now we have paid out that big fat money payout. There is nothing left and we have to find someone that will do the job for Jill Ellis money. That narrows the pool to people like Arena who are looking for a part time job.
Ramos worked his way up from coaching Under 10s, but he has never been the head coach of a senior side. Going into a World Cup like that would be scary. Klinsmann brought him along and mentored him, but I doubt seriously he did anything to prepare him.
Arena has been talking about retiring for two years now and if you believe the rumor mill, has been talking to USSF about coming back for more than a year now. Im betting he likes the 3 days a week schedule (at most) of just coaching the national team, but doesnt want the responsibility of getting them ready or failing. So he logic says he is a place holder.
As for other options, US Soccer doesnt have any. Ignore any talk of a big name coming in. Even small names like Martinez, Moyes, Cappello, etc. are pipe dreams.
First, USSF can't afford it.
Second, even if they could, they could never pull the trigger. Decisions are not made in a vacuum. The Women won't shut up about Klinsmann being paid $3 million and them getting less per diem than the male players (ignoring the fact that they negotiated less so they could be paid for other things), yada, yada, yada.
The cold sad reality is that the USMNT will never be able to spend the money necessary to compete at the highest level because our society's values are different than our competition. So long as Germany and Argentina can throw nearly all their resources into the men and still roll out a serviceable women's side, they will do so. Meanwhile, we get bogged down in arguments over equal laundry allowance on the road (no Im not kidding) and whether men can drive vans drunk on team trips and not get kicked off the team. So the playing field for the men will never be fair against their competition as long as the women compete against the men here at home.
The reality is that Jurgen was not fired because he sucked as a coach. He was fired because he sucked as a coach and the women were upset at the return on the investment and it was no longer politically viable for Gulati to keep him on under the circumstances.
Now we have paid out that big fat money payout. There is nothing left and we have to find someone that will do the job for Jill Ellis money. That narrows the pool to people like Arena who are looking for a part time job.
http://www.espnfc.com/team/united-s...-excuses-the-final-straw-for-us-soccer-chiefs
ESPNFC stating that it was his excuses after the loses caused the divide.
ESPNFC stating that it was his excuses after the loses caused the divide.
He's coaching soccer players from America. It's a near impossible job.
They had the opportunity to sign a deal that was similar to the guys. They decided not to do that.
They wanted extra things like a regular salary, health insurance, pregnancy insurance, cervical cancer coverage, subsidized birth control and other benefits. They took lower overall pay to get those benefits.
Despite the fact that US soccer pays out cash payments to subsidize their professional league and their national team games, on aggregate over a typical four year cycle lose money, the women decided that if USSF had the money to pay Jurgen $3 million a year, then they were getting a raw deal. At least the stars did. The lower rated players know they make out like bandits compared to MLS role players named to the national team.
So Solo and her buddies decided to try to extort extra money out of their contract after Klinsmann got paid. When that didn't work, they went to court to cancel the contract. When that didn't work, they went on the Today show and claimed they aren't paid the same.
In anecdotal ways, that is true, but most female players overall are paid better than most men and the women's program loses money.
And they aren't the better performing team. If the men had the same advantages against their competition in terms of infrastructure and talent development, we would perform at a high level too.
While the women did win the last World Cup, they played like dog shit the first three games and nearly got bounced. They were heavily favored in two previous World Cups and choked badly.
They wanted extra things like a regular salary, health insurance, pregnancy insurance, cervical cancer coverage, subsidized birth control and other benefits. They took lower overall pay to get those benefits.
Despite the fact that US soccer pays out cash payments to subsidize their professional league and their national team games, on aggregate over a typical four year cycle lose money, the women decided that if USSF had the money to pay Jurgen $3 million a year, then they were getting a raw deal. At least the stars did. The lower rated players know they make out like bandits compared to MLS role players named to the national team.
So Solo and her buddies decided to try to extort extra money out of their contract after Klinsmann got paid. When that didn't work, they went to court to cancel the contract. When that didn't work, they went on the Today show and claimed they aren't paid the same.
In anecdotal ways, that is true, but most female players overall are paid better than most men and the women's program loses money.
And they aren't the better performing team. If the men had the same advantages against their competition in terms of infrastructure and talent development, we would perform at a high level too.
While the women did win the last World Cup, they played like dog shit the first three games and nearly got bounced. They were heavily favored in two previous World Cups and choked badly.
And doesn't some of it have to do with the timing of the cycle? Like the men had just gotten a big payday from actually being in the WC, whereas the women hadn't played yet. I thought I read that had something to do with it as well.
Soccer will not get any better until there is a better HS and college system in place.
Coaches that want to coach college need to go overseas (Europe, South America, Japan, Africa, etc) and work (not just observe) for a couple of years so they can learn the different styles (BTW, good/great players does not mean good/great coaches).
US soccer (and MLS) needs coaches with different philosophies and methods so that players with diverse talents can come through the ranks.
At some point, US will find a style that is unique and perfect for the USMNT.
Soccer in the US is based on discipline and measurements and it lacks players that can make a difference with their technique 1 on 1 (like Messi or Ronaldo), their defending abilities or their passing. In other countries, kids are given a soccer ball for Christmas (usually their first gift) and they grow up trying to copy the players they see in TV. Here in the US, kids are forced to be very organized and do what the coach says all the time. I think soccer needs something similar to street basketball.
Coaches that want to coach college need to go overseas (Europe, South America, Japan, Africa, etc) and work (not just observe) for a couple of years so they can learn the different styles (BTW, good/great players does not mean good/great coaches).
US soccer (and MLS) needs coaches with different philosophies and methods so that players with diverse talents can come through the ranks.
At some point, US will find a style that is unique and perfect for the USMNT.
Soccer in the US is based on discipline and measurements and it lacks players that can make a difference with their technique 1 on 1 (like Messi or Ronaldo), their defending abilities or their passing. In other countries, kids are given a soccer ball for Christmas (usually their first gift) and they grow up trying to copy the players they see in TV. Here in the US, kids are forced to be very organized and do what the coach says all the time. I think soccer needs something similar to street basketball.
lol...I read that as "their cycle", as in "I don't trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die".
Sort of. The women compared their World Cup year with an off year for the men and said the pay over a four year cycle should be paid based on that, not what was generated over the previous four years. Because if they did, it would have been a net loss for the women. Something thing that gets lost in all the girl power discussions.
Yes and no. Former college soccer player here. College soccer needs to be abolished. The funky rules and particularly the practice time limits are no place near what other countries are doing. High school soccer is fine, but it needs to be geared towards fun and less about getting a free ride to some college. If you are good and want to continue to play, you go to a special school for that starting at age 12. If not, you play for fun. If you haven't switched by age 15, its over. Everybody else plays for fun. The only way that skills will develop is by playing for fun. Whether that is in the city streets as a poor kid or a manicured field as a suburban kid. Structured practices and formation heavy competitions do little to develop soccer skills. I learned more from hanging out with international students in the dorm than I ever learned from one of the best college coaches of all time. And learned because I was having fun and the ball was always at my feet. I wasn't worried about scoring, or winning, or getting a scholarship, or getting my team into a traveling tournament, or justifying my coaches absurd $100,000 salary for coaching 14 year olds even though he never played and really hadn't won anything. He stumbled upon two pretty talented kids and turned them into a career by conning parents.
The USA will never have a single "style". We are too big. Germany is the size of Oregon and they have regional differences between Berlin and Hamburg, etc. Tab has done some good things in terms of standardizing playing rules. But we are better off with everyone in Southern California teaching kids the same basic skills by certain ages that everyone else is learning, then defining that into the California style. Doing the same with the Midwest, the Pac West and other regions will give us a broad base of basic skills and a playing pool that can pull the best players and that have the best skill set to mesh with their teammates into a blended style that is uniquely American. That may mean that some really good raw talent gets left out of the national team, but playsworld class ball elsewhere. That's fine. Ask Carlos Tevez and countless other generational players that never quite fit into their national team about the same experience. This is what Klinsman was trying to do, but he was too incompetent to identify how to do it and too arrogant to get people to follow him. Seriously, what an ass.
Our kids are learning tactics light years ahead of kids even ten years ago. The problem? They are learning them on a video game. They need to go outside without any adults around and learn how to do what they see in the game.
Extort? Of course the women have performed better throughout history. They may have been favorites and "choked" the first few games, but they still won, right? Choke is generally reserved for when you actually lose.
And it's 100% the fault of the men's program that they have not been able to build an infrastructure or talent development. They've only been going at it for how many decades now - since at least the 1930s? I just see that as an excuse for continually being terrible. Oh, looks like since the late 1800s, then officially since the 1910s.
When you sign a contract to play for a certain period for a certain amount, then you wait until the moment that you cannot be replaced with other players and announce privately that you will go on an extended media campaign for the purpose of disparaging your employer by groundlessly accusing them of discrimination unless you are paid more, I, and every other lawyer in this State would call that a classic extortion attempt.
That is exactly what happened. US Soccer told them to pound sound. They complained. Not many people noticed. They sued. They lost because the judge in both the litigation on the contract and the refereee in the discimination claim both found their claim unactionable albeit for different reasons. In other words: groundless. They still went on the Today show and 60 minutes last week and every else that will stick a camera in the pretty face of a white girl claiming the world is against her. At some point, the world will stop listening, they will stop trying their stunts, and the actual legitimate claims they have will be resolved and everyone can get back to what they are supposed to be doing - playing soccer.
That is exactly what happened. US Soccer told them to pound sound. They complained. Not many people noticed. They sued. They lost because the judge in both the litigation on the contract and the refereee in the discimination claim both found their claim unactionable albeit for different reasons. In other words: groundless. They still went on the Today show and 60 minutes last week and every else that will stick a camera in the pretty face of a white girl claiming the world is against her. At some point, the world will stop listening, they will stop trying their stunts, and the actual legitimate claims they have will be resolved and everyone can get back to what they are supposed to be doing - playing soccer.
As for choking: They lost to Japan in the 2011 final. They were disorganized and listless at times through the group stage. Japan had never beaten the USA (0-3) and a team from Asia had never made the final. Other than losses to China, the USA had a lifetime winning percentage against Asian competition in the 95% range at the time. The odds of Japan winning were 50 to 1 at first touch. That's a choke. After the game, the coach stuck around for the Olympics in accordance with her contract, but then parted ways with the program and came as close as you can come in America media to saying that the players are overrated, spoiled, and uncoachable as she left. In the group stage, they lost their only competitive match to Sweden (having beaten semi-pro sides North Korea and Colombia), needed penalties to get by a depleted Brazilian squad. They played very well in the semi final against co-favorite in France, but had literally no answer for the Japanese when they discovered they were not going to be allowed to out muscle them and they could not run by them. They played like a confused set of college girls.
The USA was heavily favored to win in 2007 and was clearly the best conditioned and most athletic squad on the pitch However, they lacked basic soccer tactics and chemistry and they settled for 3rd Place. That's a choke.
In 2003, the games were played in the USA, the core of the team that had played together for nearly a decade returned,the team that dominated the 1999 World Cup. Despite playing at home, they were blown out by the Germans who later squeaked by the heavily favored Swedes for the cup. The attendance for America's games in 2003 World Cup matches averaged 25, 000. Less than the number of people that turn up for men's friendlies in off years. Rodeo got better ratings during the week for ESPN.
Even the numbers in 2015 were dismal. While the women generated a statistically tied tv rating for the most watched soccer game in us history for the final,. Gate attendance was only 53,000 -- less than what the men average for competitive matches on home soil when played in stadiums that hold that amount. The women's rating for the group matches were too low to be measured in some cases and attendance hovered at 25,000. Both FIFA and US Soccer lost money on the Women's World Cup. While much was made of the women having to play on AstroTurf, lost in the discussion was that Canada, with its astroturf, was the only nation willing to go to the expense of hosting it. WIthout playing it on turf, it would not have been played at all.
The USA was heavily favored to win in 2007 and was clearly the best conditioned and most athletic squad on the pitch However, they lacked basic soccer tactics and chemistry and they settled for 3rd Place. That's a choke.
In 2003, the games were played in the USA, the core of the team that had played together for nearly a decade returned,the team that dominated the 1999 World Cup. Despite playing at home, they were blown out by the Germans who later squeaked by the heavily favored Swedes for the cup. The attendance for America's games in 2003 World Cup matches averaged 25, 000. Less than the number of people that turn up for men's friendlies in off years. Rodeo got better ratings during the week for ESPN.
Even the numbers in 2015 were dismal. While the women generated a statistically tied tv rating for the most watched soccer game in us history for the final,. Gate attendance was only 53,000 -- less than what the men average for competitive matches on home soil when played in stadiums that hold that amount. The women's rating for the group matches were too low to be measured in some cases and attendance hovered at 25,000. Both FIFA and US Soccer lost money on the Women's World Cup. While much was made of the women having to play on AstroTurf, lost in the discussion was that Canada, with its astroturf, was the only nation willing to go to the expense of hosting it. WIthout playing it on turf, it would not have been played at all.
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That is what I was trying to say just 10x better.
Thanks, I appreciate it. But most of the thoughts aren't mine. I spend a lot of time around soccer. Most people who have played abroad or worked professionally in the sport after playing overseas share the same views. People I respect.
City as well, though not as much of late.
As child, I lived in Manchester briefly and blue was my favorite color. If you know anything about that city, then you know boys are made to choose and I chose on that basis. I was an American and only started playing the game then. I had no other basis to make a decision. (As an aside, I never played in any color except blue. My high school colors were blue, my cup team was blue, I chose TU in part because Tulsa is blue. I think about playing competitively almost everyday. If I was offered thirty years back and the opportunity to play again, I would refuse unless the kit was blue).
My affinity has been with the club ever since. It was difficult keeping track of them. My father worked for an oil company with a large base in London and holdings in Manchester, Edinburgh, and Stavanger Norway. All of his colleagues were under strict orders to bring back VHS tapes of games, but unlike now, few games were televised. I was lucky to see one game every other year. The rest of the time, I would check the table from copies of the Times and the Mail that people would bring home on flights. I lost interest in high school when I was focused on my own playing and the emerging USA team.
I came back to the club in 1987 because of their check board away jerseys. Their kit was quite flashy over the next few years, even by 80s standards, and I wanted to play in similar. Plus at the time, they had gone down into the 3rd Division and the player pool was made up of guys who drank as much as me. Though I was far away from their skill, it was easy to watch the game and see myself on the field with them. In terms of raw athletic ability, I could match up with the 3rd Division at that time and still out drink some of them afterwards.
Later Claudio Reyna, perhaps the most gifted player to ever play for the USA, went on to play for City and at the position I played. At that time Stuart Pearce was the coach of City. When I was a boy, the USA did not have a competitive national team side. Based on my ties to England, they were my team. Pearce was and is my all time favorite England player. So following City during this period was natural.
Today, the club as I once knew it no longer exists. I look in on them now and again, but City has bought success. I know football changes and staying with the old business model and owners would have meant the eventual demise of the club, but the current team just seems artificial.
Still, when they bury me, my tie will be Gold Blue and Red, but I've already pre-purchased the casket and the lining is City Blue.
I look in on Everton as well. They are blue and they were the first club to really sign Americans. Joe-Max Moore was from Tulsa and a few years younger than me. He used to join us on campus for pickup games when he was in town. He was the first US player to really make an impact in the EPL and he did it at Everton. I get upset when people suggest that Fulham is known for giving Americans a chance. No, Fulham is cheap and remembers how Everton used Americans on free transfers ten years before and went after Keller, Johnson, McBride, etc. When Landon walked off while being subbed during his final game of his first visit at Everton, the entire stadium stood and chanted USA USA USA. I never thought I would live to see something like that. Everton will never be my club, but I will always respect them for giving Maxi a chance and their love of Landon during the short time he was there.
As child, I lived in Manchester briefly and blue was my favorite color. If you know anything about that city, then you know boys are made to choose and I chose on that basis. I was an American and only started playing the game then. I had no other basis to make a decision. (As an aside, I never played in any color except blue. My high school colors were blue, my cup team was blue, I chose TU in part because Tulsa is blue. I think about playing competitively almost everyday. If I was offered thirty years back and the opportunity to play again, I would refuse unless the kit was blue).
My affinity has been with the club ever since. It was difficult keeping track of them. My father worked for an oil company with a large base in London and holdings in Manchester, Edinburgh, and Stavanger Norway. All of his colleagues were under strict orders to bring back VHS tapes of games, but unlike now, few games were televised. I was lucky to see one game every other year. The rest of the time, I would check the table from copies of the Times and the Mail that people would bring home on flights. I lost interest in high school when I was focused on my own playing and the emerging USA team.
I came back to the club in 1987 because of their check board away jerseys. Their kit was quite flashy over the next few years, even by 80s standards, and I wanted to play in similar. Plus at the time, they had gone down into the 3rd Division and the player pool was made up of guys who drank as much as me. Though I was far away from their skill, it was easy to watch the game and see myself on the field with them. In terms of raw athletic ability, I could match up with the 3rd Division at that time and still out drink some of them afterwards.
Later Claudio Reyna, perhaps the most gifted player to ever play for the USA, went on to play for City and at the position I played. At that time Stuart Pearce was the coach of City. When I was a boy, the USA did not have a competitive national team side. Based on my ties to England, they were my team. Pearce was and is my all time favorite England player. So following City during this period was natural.
Today, the club as I once knew it no longer exists. I look in on them now and again, but City has bought success. I know football changes and staying with the old business model and owners would have meant the eventual demise of the club, but the current team just seems artificial.
Still, when they bury me, my tie will be Gold Blue and Red, but I've already pre-purchased the casket and the lining is City Blue.
I look in on Everton as well. They are blue and they were the first club to really sign Americans. Joe-Max Moore was from Tulsa and a few years younger than me. He used to join us on campus for pickup games when he was in town. He was the first US player to really make an impact in the EPL and he did it at Everton. I get upset when people suggest that Fulham is known for giving Americans a chance. No, Fulham is cheap and remembers how Everton used Americans on free transfers ten years before and went after Keller, Johnson, McBride, etc. When Landon walked off while being subbed during his final game of his first visit at Everton, the entire stadium stood and chanted USA USA USA. I never thought I would live to see something like that. Everton will never be my club, but I will always respect them for giving Maxi a chance and their love of Landon during the short time he was there.
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Wow, very cool to hear your story. I thought I had a right to brag about City but mine pales in comparison to yours!!!!
I've never been to England. My wife and I had planned on going this year but the birth of my daughter 3 months ago put that on hold. You can believe when I do go it will include a "proper" football match. I'd love for it to be a City game.
I agree that they have bought their last few years of success, but so had other EPL sides with their time in the sun, too. All of that oil money being infused into the team does make it seem a little less respectable, but it's still been fun to watch nonetheless.
City 'Til I Die!!!
I've never been to England. My wife and I had planned on going this year but the birth of my daughter 3 months ago put that on hold. You can believe when I do go it will include a "proper" football match. I'd love for it to be a City game.
I agree that they have bought their last few years of success, but so had other EPL sides with their time in the sun, too. All of that oil money being infused into the team does make it seem a little less respectable, but it's still been fun to watch nonetheless.
City 'Til I Die!!!
Huffy, if you were the US soccer/ncaa czar, what changes would you make to college soccer?
I would like to make the season 2 semesters instead of one. Could easily take a winter break and pick backup in warmer weather. I think that would probably be best for the sport as well as the students.
I would like to make the season 2 semesters instead of one. Could easily take a winter break and pick backup in warmer weather. I think that would probably be best for the sport as well as the students.
It's my dirty little secret but I've enjoyed reading this and learning a lot about our national teams
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