Methodists Vote to Keep Traditional Marriage Stance

[fabknight]

Billy Graham doesn't understand what Communion is?

He probably does. I'm sure he's studied Catholism and understands the sacraments but does he truly believe that the Eucharist is the actual embodiment of the blood, body, soul and divinity of Christ? I can't answer that question but if I were to take a guess, I'd say he does not otherwise he'd be a Catholic.

 

[NinjaKnight]

This thread is like a sneak peak inside an insane asylum. Goddamn ya'll need some logic.

 

[UCFKnight85]

I'm not saying they are nefarious. I understand the rationale behind it: the church allowed itself to be bastardized by accepting pagan practices, now they take a more exclusive view to protect the sacraments. Thats fine, but when a church would refuse to serve communion to someone like Billy Graham then its probably become a little bit too exclusive.

Peter was sharing communion with the gentiles until James told him to knock it off. Then Paul stepped in and set Peter right. That in and of itself should be enough to convince the Catholic church that communion is for all believers, not just Catholics.

The fact is that other Protestant sects don’t believe that Communion means what Catholics believe it means. Communion originated within what is now the worldwide Roman Catholic Church so I don’t think it should be watered down to appease the Protestant offshoots.

And I say that as someone with deep personal friends who are Protestants and get where I’m coming from.

 

[Crazyhole]

He probably does. I'm sure he's studied Catholism and understands the sacraments but does he truly believe that the Eucharist is the actual embodiment of the blood, body, soul and divinity of Christ? I can't answer that question but if I were to take a guess, I'd say he does not otherwise he'd be a Catholic.

Thats a bit presumptuous. I believe that the eucharist is exactly how you describe it but for other reasons I am not catholic. FTR, lutherans, anglicans, methodists, and the eastern orthodox church all believe in transubstantiation.

Edit: some churches listed defer to the term consubstantiation but do not view the eucharist as being ceremonial in nature.

 

[fabknight]

Thats a bit presumptuous. I believe that the eucharist is exactly how you describe it but for other reasons I am not catholic. FTR, lutherans, anglicans, methodists, and the eastern orthodox church all believe in transubstantiation.

Edit: some churches listed defer to the term consubstantiation but do not view the eucharist as being ceremonial in nature.

Consubstantiation is considered heretical by the Catholic church. Of the list provided, I think only the Eastern Orhthodox church truly ascribes transubstantiation...maybe the Anglican.

 

[DaShuckster]

The fact is that other Protestant sects don’t believe that Communion means what Catholics believe it means.

That's very true. Speaking for United Methodists, we practice open communion, meaning everyone at worship is invited to partake, member or not. The church proclaims that the table of Holy Communion is open to anyone who seeks to respond to God's love and seeks to lead a new life of peace and love.

With the Catholic Church, communion is, in part, a restricted Club kind-of-deal. An important part of communion for them is embracing the notion they're all tightly bound together on the same team. A Catholic congregation that allows a non-Catholic to partake in communion is committing a huge no-no because that act would amount to essentially "saying one thing while doing another."

 

[Crazyhole]

That's very true. Speaking for United Methodists, we practice open communion, meaning everyone at worship is invited to partake, member or not. The church proclaims that the table of Holy Communion is open to anyone who seeks to respond to God's love and seeks to lead a new life of peace and love.

With the Catholic Church, communion is, in part, a restricted Club kind-of-deal. An important part of communion for them is embracing the notion they're all tightly bound together on the same team. A Catholic congregation that allows a non-Catholic to partake in communion is committing a huge no-no because that act would amount to essentially "saying one thing while doing another."

But at the same time, the Catholic church allows for participation in communion at other churches.

 

[DaShuckster]

But at the same time, the Catholic church allows for participation in communion at other churches.

Are you sure? As a general rule, I don't think so.

 

[Crazyhole]

Consubstantiation is considered heretical by the Catholic church. Of the list provided, I think only the Eastern Orhthodox church truly ascribes transubstantiation...maybe the Anglican.

Just a thought for discussion regarding transubstantiation vs consubstantiation:

At the last supper, christ served up bread and wine. He didnt cut off his flesh and cut himself to allow the disciples to actually comsume them. He said "do this in rememberance of me. Why should a church take the stance that the bread actually becomes flesh when that isnt what happened at the last supper? Just from an argumentative standpoint, the idea of consubstantiation is more in line with what happened than the idea of transubstantiation.

 

[fabknight]

With the Catholic Church, communion is, in part, a restricted Club kind-of-deal. An important part of communion for them is embracing the notion they're all tightly bound together on the same team. A Catholic congregation that allows a non-Catholic to partake in communion is committing a huge no-no because that act would amount to essentially "saying one thing while doing another."

Wrong. Even a Catholic is not supposed to receive communion if they are not in a state of grace, ie., guilty of mortal sin without going to confession. Confession is a required sacrament prior to ever receiving the Eucharist for the first time. It is also a required sacrament if guilty of mortal sin. A Catholic simply just does not receive holy Communion.

 

[fabknight]

Just a thought for discussion regarding transubstantiation vs consubstantiation:

At the last supper, christ served up bread and wine. He didnt cut off his flesh and cut himself to allow the disciples to actually comsume them. He said "do this in rememberance of me. Why should a church take the stance that the bread actually becomes flesh when that isnt what happened at the last supper? Just from an argumentative standpoint, the idea of consubstantiation is more in line with what happened than the idea of transubstantiation.

During the Last Supper, Jesus said a lot more than that. The basis for the transubstantiation is when Jesus says of the bread "this is my body" and of the wine "this is my blood."

 

[UCFKnight85]

Wrong. Even a Catholic is not supposed to receive communion if they are not in a state of grace, ie., guilty of mortal sin without going to confession. Confession is a required sacrament prior to ever receiving the Eucharist for the first time. It is also a required sacrament if guilty of mortal sin. A Catholic simply just does not receive holy Communion.

Thanks. I was going to waste time explaining in vein how wrong his post was but this gets us most of the way there.

 

[DaShuckster]

Wrong. ... A Catholic simply just does not receive holy Communion.

I was speaking specifically to the issue of a non-catholic receiving communion in the Catholic Church. Since you brought it up, the same principle I outlined applies to Catholics who, as you said, “are not in a state of grace.”

 

[Crazyhole]

Are you sure? As a general rule, I don't think so.

Yes. Catholics can receive communion at other churches as long as they feel it is beneficial to them and will be beneficial to the ceremony. For example, if a catholic goes to a Lutheran wedding where they serve communion, they can recieve that and consider it a sacrament because refusing it would be a distraction to the others involved as long as they in their hearts feels that they are receiving the eucharist in the way the catholic church believes it to be

 

[Crazyhole]

Wrong. Even a Catholic is not supposed to receive communion if they are not in a state of grace, ie., guilty of mortal sin without going to confession. Confession is a required sacrament prior to ever receiving the Eucharist for the first time. It is also a required sacrament if guilty of mortal sin. A Catholic simply just does not receive holy Communion.

True, but whereas communion is a weekly practice, catholics are only required to take confession one time per year. That means that if a catholic chooses to do so, they can go 51 weeks carrying a mortal sin and still receive communion. Obviously this all comes down to what is in someones heart, but that brings us back to a person like myself and whether the practice is exclusive to the point of being heretical.

I cant receive communion unless I go to confession.
I cant receive confession unless I go through confirmation.
Confirmation is not akin to the creed, it is a profession of faith in a church structure, not in Christ's salvation.

So what would Paul say about it? He rebuked Peter for refusing to share communion with the Gentiles and then Peter changed his ways.

 

[Crazyhole]

That's very true. Speaking for United Methodists, we practice open communion, meaning everyone at worship is invited to partake, member or not. The church proclaims that the table of Holy Communion is open to anyone who seeks to respond to God's love and seeks to lead a new life of peace and love.

With the Catholic Church, communion is, in part, a restricted Club kind-of-deal. An important part of communion for them is embracing the notion they're all tightly bound together on the same team. A Catholic congregation that allows a non-Catholic to partake in communion is committing a huge no-no because that act would amount to essentially "saying one thing while doing another."

Going back to this. The Methodist church will give communion to anyone and everyone, but what about the Pagan who is partaking in it as a sign of mockery to God? There should be a level of exclusion involved, but I cant begin to say where that line should be delineated. I feel like the catholic and Lutheran churches have probably drawn that line way too far in one direction and the Methodist and restorationist churches went way too far in the other direction. I don't know if asking for an admission of faith to a doctrine is any more useful in determining what is in a persons heart than just saying "hey, come on in"

 

[Crazyhole]

Maybe since we have a couple of Catholics in this thread we should take 1 step backwards and discuss confession. It seems to me that confession should be something that everyone should be allowed to partake in. If a person is carrying the guilt of sin and wants to be relieved of that burden then why is it important to pledge allegiance to a church before being allowed to do so? If I profess my faith in christ, shouldn't any and every church be there to facilitate my repentance?

 

[DaShuckster]

Going back to this. The Methodist church will give communion to anyone and everyone, but what about the Pagan who is partaking in it as a sign of mockery to God?

My response to that is "So what?" The whole notion of communion in my faith is to show God's love to both members and nonmembers alike and present a path for a life of peace and love.

It's that old adage, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. So if someone is partaking in communion to mock God, the only one losing out on the deal is the mocker. Given that, why act like we have to put church-goers through a religious, TSA-like, check before they can proceed on to the altar rail?

 

[UCFKnight85]

Maybe since we have a couple of Catholics in this thread we should take 1 step backwards and discuss confession. It seems to me that confession should be something that everyone should be allowed to partake in. If a person is carrying the guilt of sin and wants to be relieved of that burden then why is it important to pledge allegiance to a church before being allowed to do so? If I profess my faith in christ, shouldn't any and every church be there to facilitate my repentance?

You can go see a priest and confess whatever you want to him. No one in the Church would stop you. However to receive the actual Catholic Sacrament of pentinence you have had to go through RCIA. And it has nothing to do with “excluding” anyone but rather assuring that the people receiving the Sacrament understand fully what it means and how it impacts their lives within the Church and with God. Y’all didn’t want to deal with Canon Law when you broke from the church so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that the Church isn’t bending on Canon Law to offer up Sacraments for those who don’t want to go through RCIA or understand what that Sacrament means to a Catholic

 

[Crazyhole]

My response to that is "So what?" The whole notion of communion in my faith is to show God's love to both members and nonmembers alike and present a path for a life of peace and love.

It's that old adage, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. So if someone is partaking in communion to mock God, the only one losing out on the deal is the mocker. Given that, why act like we have to put church-goers through a religious, TSA-like, check before they can proceed on to the altar rail?

Well I guess is that the danger still exists of bastardizing the church like what happened at the end of the first millennia.

 

[Crazyhole]

You can go see a priest and confess whatever you want to him. No one in the Church would stop you. However to receive the actual Catholic Sacrament of pentinence you have had to go through RCIA. And it has nothing to do with “excluding” anyone but rather assuring that the people receiving the Sacrament understand fully what it means and how it impacts their lives within the Church and with God. Y’all didn’t want to deal with Canon Law when you broke from the church so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that the Church isn’t bending on Canon Law to offer up Sacraments for those who don’t want to go through RCIA or understand what that Sacrament means to a Catholic

Did John the Baptist truly understand baptism when he was performing it?

 

[ChrisKnight06]

So it keeps getting talked about but I'll just ask. There prob isn't an accurate answer to this but how many Catholics actually believe in transubstantiation? I can't imagine it being a large percentage.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Did John the Baptist truly understand baptism when he was performing it?

Every Christian delegation believes in baptism that I know of. Only Catholics believe that Pentinence is a Sacrament.

And I’m not saying that to say it’s better or worse or anything, just the bare bones fact.

 

[Crazyhole]

So it keeps getting talked about but I'll just ask. There prob isn't an accurate answer to this but how many Catholics actually believe in transubstantiation? I can't imagine it being a large percentage.

I would have to believe that it would only be among the truly conservative Vatican 1 type of catholic parishioner, but that is just speculation. Even after Vatican 2 in the 60s there was a pretty sizeable group of very conservative Catholics who rejected the idea of the priest giving mass facing the congregation or saying mass in English. I would think that this sect would probably be 100%on board with the idea of transubstantiation. Beyond that, and this is just my guess, I would think that a majority of Catholics would ascribe to the idea that the eucharist is still just bread and wine but that Christ is present and formative in that sacrament. I would be surprised to find any Catholics who would consider it to be just a ritual of remembrance. Then again, I think about my brother in law who outright rejects the catholic faith but at Christmas still goes up to receive the eucharist because he doesn't want his mom to be too upset.

 

[Crazyhole]

Every Christian delegation believes in baptism that I know of. Only Catholics believe that Pentinence is a Sacrament.

And I’m not saying that to say it’s better or worse or anything, just the bare bones fact.

Most churches don't have "sacraments" in the same way the catholic church does. All churches hold baptism and repentance in high regard, they just apply those sacraments differently.

I really believe that the single greatest thing that the catholic religion has gotten right over every other denomination is confession. I may not like how it is administered, but its better than the "oh, my sins are between me and God" groups, and WAY better than the "I have to get up in front of the entire congregation to admit I looked at porn" groups. Sins need to be admitted vocally and outwardly, but more importantly they need to be atoned for in an appropriate manner if possible. I think the catholic approach to it is as close to what Jesus would have us do as opposed to any other denomination. There is something about the spoken word that is powerful, and this is an example of a church recognizing that.

 

[NinjaKnight]

holy shit this thread is still delivering the lulz

 

[tribbleorlfl]

Interesting no one brought this up. At least 4 members of the African delegation not credentialed to vote somehow impermissibly voted. While they might not have made a difference with the Traditional plan passing or the One Church plan failing to pass, it's important to note the Exit plan failed by only two votes; as members of the African delegation it's likely they voted against the Exit plan.

My church had a congregational meeting two weeks ago to discuss the outcome of the vote and what it means for our church going forward. It sounds like our senior pastor is going to resign if the UMC proceeds with implementing these stricter ordination rules (the Traditional Plan further clarified not only are UMC pastors not allowed to officiate gay weddings at UM churches, they are not allowed to officiate gay weddings anywhere). That definitely shocked and ruffled the feathers of some of the stodgy, more conservative congregants that were around us.
https://religionnews.com/2019/03/15...es-questions-about-methodist-gay-clergy-vote/

 

[DaShuckster]

My church had a congregational meeting two weeks ago to discuss the outcome of the vote and what it means for our church going forward. It sounds like our senior pastor is going to resign if the UMC proceeds with implementing these stricter ordination rules

After a similar congregational meeting, our church proclaimed that we will continue to allow Gay marriages to take place in our chapel.

Nothing is going to happen anytime real soon for the United Methodist Church. But all the signs are pointing to an eventual split.

 

[UCFBS]

So, basically any and all Methodists are racist and sexist, right? And the government should come down on them hard, right? Sigh ...

At some point the 'Freedom of Religion' in the 1st Amendment has to mean something.

 

[NinjaKnight]

So, basically any and all Methodists are racist and sexist, right? And the government should come down on them hard, right? Sigh ...

At some point the 'Freedom of Religion' in the 1st Amendment has to mean something.

Literally no one said anything remotely like what you just invented.

In a thread filled with delusional morons, you stand as their king.

 

[btbones]

Literally no one said anything remotely like what you just invented.

In a thread filled with delusional morons, you stand as their king.

It’s exactly the opposite of what he said lol . The Methodist congregations obviously are not sexist or racist

 

[NinjaKnight]

It’s exactly the opposite of begat he said lol . The Methodist congregations obviously are not sexist or racist

Can you translate this from KJV to NIV or NRSV? I'm struggling with the begat.

 

[btbones]

Can you translate this from KJV to NIV or NRSV? I'm struggling with the begat.

Lol. No clue why it autocorrected to begat

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Literally no one said anything remotely like what you just invented.

In a thread filled with delusional morons, you stand as their king.

YOU CLEARLY MISUNDERSTOOD BS.