Quid-Pro-Quo or Bribery?

[Boosted87]

I think the dems have messed up the PR angle here. Quid-pro-quo is a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" kind of thing where both sides get something in return.

The White House Visit angle is probably a quid-pro-quo in that sense. But the congressionally appropriated funds don't fit into that description as neatly. Trump isn't giving or promising Ukraine anything new in exchange for investigations.

Terrible analogy. Grandma sends you a check for $5,000. When you go to cash it at the bank, the bank President requests a specific "favor" of you and prevents the check from being processed.

You're getting nothing from the bank except what you're already owed. The bank prez is using his authority to extract benefit without giving you any benefit to which you're not already entitled. That's what I see in Trump's case. It sounds more like Trump is asking for a "grease payment" (soliciting a bribe) related to the investigations in exchange for releasing the funds.

While I don't personally believe you can justify this scenario, you can at least argue that quid-pro-quos are not inherently bad when furthering US policy. With bribery, it doesn't matter. If POTUS solicited a bribe of any sort, that's plaint-text impeachable. Right?

 

[beelit47]

You guys are still hoping for this hail mary to land? The transcript clears him of wrongdoing but we know the dems want 13 months of closed door meetings with whistleblowers operating off 3rd hand hearsay. Cllusion delusion part 2

 

[Crazyhole]

I don't think bribery is the right term either. Extortion is probably closer.

 

[Sir Galahad]

I don't think bribery is the right term either. Extortion is probably closer.

All foreign aide is extortion to a point.

 

[Boosted87]

You guys are still hoping for this hail mary to land? The transcript clears him of wrongdoing but we know the dems want 13 months of closed door meetings with whistleblowers operating off 3rd hand hearsay. Cllusion delusion part 2

I don't have an agenda. I like facts and try to form my opinions accordingly.

 

[Boosted87]

I don't think bribery is the right term either. Extortion is probably closer.

You can make that case too, but politically, if I was Pelosi and crew, I'd focus it around a bribery argument if possible. That undercuts a bunch of defense strategies. You'll always be able to argue that this was "normal" extortion - "the same kind of quid-pro-quo / extortion we do all the time in foreign policy!". You can try to normalize the behavior.

If you frame it as bribery, you can't normalize it under that term. You have to argue, on the merits, that it wasn't soliciting a bribe. You can't argue that it's the normal kind of bribery. It's a higher bar for the dems, but if you can make a compelling fact-based case that it was soliciting a bribe, it would really put the Republicans in a corner.

 

[Crazyhole]

All foreign aide is extortion to a point.

Conditions on foreign aid isn't the equivalent of extortion.

 

[Crazyhole]

You can make that case too, but politically, if I was Pelosi and crew, I'd focus it around a bribery argument if possible. That undercuts a bunch of defense strategies. You'll always be able to argue that this was "normal" extortion - "the same kind of quid-pro-quo / extortion we do all the time in foreign policy!". You can try to normalize the behavior.

If you frame it as bribery, you can't normalize it under that term. You have to argue, on the merits, that it wasn't soliciting a bribe. You can't argue that it's the normal kind of bribery. It's a higher bar for the dems, but if you can make a compelling fact-based case that it was soliciting a bribe, it would really put the Republicans in a corner.

I think it's a reach based on many factors. trump asked ukraine to look into corruption and election meddling. He also asked China to look into corruption that is directly tied to the situation and we don't give them aid. He asked Australia to do the same and there weren't conditions of any kind. Barr enlisted the UK and Italy as well. That creates a much clearer picture of this being about corruption, not political favors. What "bribe" was used with the rest of these countries?

 

[DaShuckster]

You guys are still hoping for this hail mary to land? The transcript clears him of wrongdoing ...

Apparently beelit47 is the only person outside of those involved who has heard the audio tape that is locked away in a WH secret server.

The unofficial transcript the WH released revealed a quid-pro-quo and on more than one occasion Trump has essentially confirmed it and said he did nothing wrong. The testimony of the actual participants confirm the strong arm tactics that the whistleblower pulled the alarm about.

A 'Hail Mary' is certainly needed here, but it's sure as hell not the Congressional Democrats who are needing it.

 

[Boosted87]

I think it's a reach based on many factors. trump asked ukraine to look into corruption and election meddling. He also asked China to look into corruption that is directly tied to the situation and we don't give them aid. He asked Australia to do the same and there weren't conditions of any kind. Barr enlisted the UK and Italy as well. That creates a much clearer picture of this being about corruption, not political favors. What "bribe" was used with the rest of these countries?

Are you saying that he couldn't have solicited a bribe from Ukraine unless he also solicited a bribe from other countries as well? I know that's not your point but that's what sounds like.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Inbred MAGAts help me out here, which should I go with?

Yawn?

Or

TDS!!!!

Y'all have a very limited playbook to deal with the gross negligence/outright treason exhibited by your racist piece of shit POTUS on a daily basis. Just trying to figure out which to go with here. TIA

 

[DaShuckster]

Y'all have a very limited playbook to deal with the gross negligence/outright treason exhibited by your racist piece of shit POTUS on a daily basis. Just trying to figure out which to go with here. TIA

I don't think you're giving the Usual Suspect enough credit, Ninja. Yes, 'yawn' and 'TDS' are standard. But here's a few more:

• It doesn't matter because everybody does it.
• This is all about "Shifty" Adam Schiff.
• The Dems have wanted to impeach the guy since Day 1.
• Screw the biased 'whistleblower' and Congressional testimony to date. Trump's unofficial transcript of the call proves he did nothing wrong.
• Barr will blow the lid off this sham investigation once he produces the evidence of the Democrat's smoking gun any day now.
• The Democrats are just sore losers. They still haven't gotten over the 2016 election.
• This is all about Hunter Biden. It's a travesty when the children of a Veep can make money off their parent's name and influence. You don't see that kind of disgusting sh*t with Ivanka or Don Jr.!!!

 

[Crazyhole]

Are you saying that he couldn't have solicited a bribe from Ukraine unless he also solicited a bribe from other countries as well? I know that's not your point but that's what sounds like.

Not at all. I'm just saying that it would seem odd that he would enlist the services under bribe or extortion of Ukraine while also asking 4 other countries to look into the same issue without condition, particularly China. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he did, but one would think we would know about that already.

Just looking at the narrative we have been fed for 3 years, why not ask Russia to do this "investigation"? Ukraine, China, UK, Australia, and Italy are odd bedfellows for trying to get trump re-elected.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

I don't think you're giving the Usual Suspect enough credit, Ninja. Yes, 'yawn' and 'TDS' are standard. But here's a few more:

• It doesn't matter because everybody does it.
• This is all about "Shifty" Adam Schiff.
• The Dems have wanted to impeach the guy since Day 1.
• Screw the biased 'whistleblower' and Congressional testimony to date. Trump's unofficial transcript of the call proves he did nothing wrong.
• Barr will blow the lid off this sham investigation once he produces the evidence of the Democrat's smoking gun any day now.
• The Democrats are just sore losers. They still haven't gotten over the 2016 election.
• This is all about Hunter Biden. It's a travesty when the children of a Veep can make money off their parent's name and influence. You don't see that kind of disgusting sh*t with Ivanka or Don Jr.!!!

You missed “Vindman is Jewish so he cannot be trusted.”

 

[NinjaKnight]

You missed “Vindman is Jewish so he cannot be trusted.”

Best part is: none of the other Trump nuthuggers even bothered to correct him. Racism and anti-Semitism are NBD to them.

Just disgusting

 

[NinjaKnight]

Imagine being so goddamn stupid that you still support Trump in 2019

 

[Boosted87]

Not at all. I'm just saying that it would seem odd that he would enlist the services under bribe or extortion of Ukraine while also asking 4 other countries to look into the same issue without condition, particularly China. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he did, but one would think we would know about that already.

Just looking at the narrative we have been fed for 3 years, why not ask Russia to do this "investigation"? Ukraine, China, UK, Australia, and Italy are odd bedfellows for trying to get trump re-elected.

Ask yourself what the logical long-game is here for Trump. He's never seriously acknowledged Russian interference and sided with Putin's denials over his entire intelligence apparatus. Manafort pegged Ukraine as a plausible alternative source of the hacking on day one. Trump hates that he lost the popular vote and hates that the analysis says Russia supported his campaign.

Evidence that it was Ukraine operatives, not Russian, that hacked the DNC would completely undermine the entire narrative against Trump for the last 3 years. If our intelligence services got that wrong, then everything can be called into question.

We know Trump has a very loose connection with the truth. He just needs a few nuggets here and there to argue this narrative going forward. For example, Ukraine simply stating that they were investigating the CrowdStrike theory immediately gives it credibility. Whether the investigation is warranted based on evidence is irrelevant for Trump's political needs.

 

[Crazyhole]

Ask yourself what the logical long-game is here for Trump. He's never seriously acknowledged Russian interference and sided with Putin's denials over his entire intelligence apparatus. Manafort pegged Ukraine as a plausible alternative source of the hacking on day one. Trump hates that he lost the popular vote and hates that the analysis says Russia supported his campaign.

Evidence that it was Ukraine operatives, not Russian, that hacked the DNC would completely undermine the entire narrative against Trump for the last 3 years. If our intelligence services got that wrong, then everything can be called into question.

We know Trump has a very loose connection with the truth. He just needs a few nuggets here and there to argue this narrative going forward. For example, Ukraine simply stating that they were investigating the CrowdStrike theory immediately gives it credibility. Whether the investigation is warranted based on evidence is irrelevant for Trump's political needs.

I think you laid out what we are ultimately going to find out to be the truth. What is the long game? To vindicate himself and take Biden down, along with proving that russia wasn't the source of the election meddling. He would strengthen his platform of draining the swamp if he has proof that the State Dept was involved in the corruption that the Obama administration oversaw.

 

[Boosted87]

I think you laid out what we are ultimately going to find out to be the truth. What is the long game? To vindicate himself and take Biden down, along with proving that russia wasn't the source of the election meddling. He would strengthen his platform of draining the swamp if he has proof that the State Dept was involved in the corruption that the Obama administration oversaw.

I realize your just signing up for one of his conspiracy theories here. This doesn't mean you don't believe in vaccines, think Ted Cruz's dad was involved with the Kennedy assassination, think Barack Obama forged his birth certificate, etc. But it does mean you're going with the "even a broken clock is right sometimes" kind of approach here. Even though Trump has zero credibility in critically assessing information and finding the truth based on his history of touting conspiracy theories, you're giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one and assuming the Senate Intelligence Committee, CIA, FBI, etc are all wrong.

The ONLY reason a theory like this even has legs is because it's being amplified and supported from POTUS. That's it.

 

[bqknight]

 

[Crazyhole]

I realize your just signing up for one of his conspiracy theories here. This doesn't mean you don't believe in vaccines, think Ted Cruz's dad was involved with the Kennedy assassination, think Barack Obama forged his birth certificate, etc. But it does mean you're going with the "even a broken clock is right sometimes" kind of approach here. Even though Trump has zero credibility in critically assessing information and finding the truth based on his history of touting conspiracy theories, you're giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one and assuming the Senate Intelligence Committee, CIA, FBI, etc are all wrong.

The ONLY reason a theory like this even has legs is because it's being amplified and supported from POTUS. That's it.

I don't believe a word that trump says. This whole thing started coming out before biden was even a presidential candidate and I've been following it since April. Its amplified now because of the whistleblower and investigative journalists are looking deeper into it. FOIA requests are providing documents that prove that the initial reports are true. That isn't buying into a conspiracy theory, it's based on evidence.

 

[DaShuckster]

View embedded media

Whoa! Sondland changes his original story and now confirms the whistleblower's report. That makes THREE Ambassadors (two appointed by Trump) who have walked away from Trump's line of BS.

 

[bqknight]

Whoa! Sondland changes his original story and now confirms the whistleblower's report. That makes THREE Ambassadors (two appointed by Trump) who have walked away from Trump's line of BS.

Eh...Trump's line seems to be changing to that he did do it - but it's not an impeachable offense...and that he was jut trying to weed out corruption.

I've seen some other things that make it appear that the Dems are also trying to make a case for Obstruction.

Overall - I think if Trump sticks to his message - he'll be fine. Congress may vote through Articles but no way the Senate convicts him - and his base won't care at all.

 

[Ace of Knights]

View embedded media

Lol, nothing like getting a little scared of Perjury.

 

[DaShuckster]

Eh...Trump's line seems to be changing to that he did do it - but it's not an impeachable offense...and that he was jut trying to weed out corruption.

Ooooooooookay.

My read at this point is that Trump will likely survive a Senate trial but except for partisan hacks who would support him even if he "shot somebody on Fifth Avenue", no rational voter wants four more years of this crazy reality-TV presidency.

 

[bqknight]

Ooooooooookay.

My read at this point is that Trump will likely survive a Senate trial but except for partisan hacks who would support him even if he "shot somebody on Fifth Avenue", no rational voter wants four more years of this crazy reality-TV presidency.

I agree...and I believe that's the Democrat's thinking too.

Unfortunately - I just don't know anymore.

 

[Crazyhole]

Ooooooooookay.

My read at this point is that Trump will likely survive a Senate trial but except for partisan hacks who would support him even if he "shot somebody on Fifth Avenue", no rational voter wants four more years of this crazy reality-TV presidency.

You still have yet to state what your position will be if it turns out that Biden and the state dept actually are guilty of corruption. Would that change your position on whether this is impeachable?

 

[Crazyhole]

I agree...and I believe that's the Democrat's thinking too.

Unfortunately - I just don't know anymore.

This sounds kind of like a way of hedging your bet. "Well, what's the point of impeaching him because the Senate won't convict him anyway". Its ironic because we are 12 months away from the election where he could be kicked out anyway

 

[Poolside Knight]

Sondland Flips

 

[NinjaKnight]

@Boosted87

https://www.axios.com/monmouth-poll-trump-approval-a05b8144-1d1b-4296-a0d4-6ca0390b05ee.html


Poll: 62% of Trump supporters say nothing he could do would change opinion


This is what I have learned from being on this board awhile. Literally nothing he could do would change their mind. All the evidence in the world wouldn't do the trick.


So just call them the inbred stupid treasonous sacks of shit that they are laugh at them, it's all you can do anymore.

 

[DaShuckster]

Poll: 62% of Trump supporters say nothing he could do would change opinion

Good Grief. This is one of the most disturbing poll results I've ever heard.

Just more evidence that in this day and age, the Right doesn't give a sh*t about the United States or our Constitution, it's all about blind loyalty to "the tribe" for the Red Hats.

 

[Crazyhole]

Good Grief. This is one of the most disturbing poll results I've ever heard.

Just more evidence that in this day and age, the Right doesn't give a sh*t about the United States or our Constitution, it's all about blind loyalty to "the tribe" for the Red Hats.

Weird how you're all about the constitution lately but when it comes to gun control it's just common sense that we ignore it.

 

[DaShuckster]

Weird how you're all about the constitution lately but when it comes to gun control it's just common sense that we ignore it.

No need to turn this into another 'gun' thread but for the record, I've never said we should ban all guns despite the Second Amendment.

But it appears our Constitution-waving Gun enthusiasts are not as keen on other parts of the Constitution.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Good Grief. This is one of the most disturbing poll results I've ever heard.

Just more evidence that in this day and age, the Right doesn't give a sh*t about the United States or our Constitution, it's all about blind loyalty to "the tribe" for the Red Hats.

It's legit terrifying. How fuked up in the head do you have to be to have blind allegiance to such a terrible human being? This is the definition of a cult. A cult of stupidity.

 

[firm_bizzle]

It's legit terrifying. How fuked up in the head do you have to be to have blind allegiance to such a terrible human being? This is the definition of a cult. A cult of stupidity.

Because he's an amazing strong leader and anyone that disagrees is a loser.









*

 

[Boosted87]

Poll: 62% of Trump supporters say nothing he could do would change opinion

This is what I have learned from being on this board awhile. Literally nothing he could do would change their mind. All the evidence in the world wouldn't do the trick.


So just call them the inbred stupid treasonous sacks of shit that they are laugh at them, it's all you can do anymore.

I couldn't disagree more. I've found over and over and over in life that people are FAR more persuadable than you think. It's not easy. It takes time. But there's one GUARANTEED way not to persuade anyone - put them on the defensive. It simply reinforces all their beliefs about the other side - that they aren't rational, that they think they're better than me, smarter than me, etc.

This is a huge weakness right now for in the war of ideas with Trumpism. Calling Trump's base deplorable, racists, misogynist, etc all reinforces this. Acting like Trump's base is a "lost cause" is demeaning and causes them to dig in even further (this is why Hillary was a terrible candidate BTW).

The VAST majority of voters - Trump's base included - are normal everyday Americans that don't pay attention to the day-to-day battles of politics. Huge chunks of party bases are like T-Shirt fans. They're on a team. But if pushed into a "real" situation - like serving on a Jury - they are just as capable of doing their civic duty as anyone else. If you recall in the Manafort case, there was one juror who drove to court every day with her MAGA gear in the back seat. She felt Manafort was targeted to get to Trump, and wanted him to be not guilty, but the evidence of guilt was "overwhelming."

Stay rational. Present facts and point out lies. Leave emotion out of it even if they don't. You'll be shocked at how quickly you can disarm someone who goes into a discussion assuming you're about to call them a treasonous sack of shit, and instead, you demonstrate empathy, relate to their situation, and provide them an alternative view point.

 

[DaShuckster]

The VAST majority of voters - Trump's base included - are normal everyday Americans ...Stay rational. Present facts and point out lies. Leave emotion out of it even if they don't. You'll be shocked at how quickly you can disarm someone who goes into a discussion assuming you're about to call them a treasonous sack of shit, and instead, you demonstrate empathy, relate to their situation, and provide them an alternative view point.

Where do they get their 'alternative view point' when their 'news' comes from FOX NEWS and talk radio.

Try to find the story about Sundlund's flipped testimony on FOX NEWS. I guess it wasn't considered news.

 

[NinjaKnight]

I couldn't disagree more. I've found over and over and over in life that people are FAR more persuadable than you think. It's not easy. It takes time. But there's one GUARANTEED way not to persuade anyone - put them on the defensive. It simply reinforces all their beliefs about the other side - that they aren't rational, that they think they're better than me, smarter than me, etc.

This is a huge weakness right now for in the war of ideas with Trumpism. Calling Trump's base deplorable, racists, misogynist, etc all reinforces this. Acting like Trump's base is a "lost cause" is demeaning and causes them to dig in even further (this is why Hillary was a terrible candidate BTW).

The VAST majority of voters - Trump's base included - are normal everyday Americans that don't pay attention to the day-to-day battles of politics. Huge chunks of party bases are like T-Shirt fans. They're on a team. But if pushed into a "real" situation - like serving on a Jury - they are just as capable of doing their civic duty as anyone else. If you recall in the Manafort case, there was one juror who drove to court every day with her MAGA gear in the back seat. She felt Manafort was targeted to get to Trump, and wanted him to be not guilty, but the evidence of guilt was "overwhelming."

Stay rational. Present facts and point out lies. Leave emotion out of it even if they don't. You'll be shocked at how quickly you can disarm someone who goes into a discussion assuming you're about to call them a treasonous sack of shit, and instead, you demonstrate empathy, relate to their situation, and provide them an alternative view point.

Oh you sweet summer child.jpg

Let me know how this goes for you. Your innocence is hilariously refreshing.

I was exactly like you 4 years ago in the run up to the election. Down to a T. Never used a personal attack, cited every source. It didn't matter to the majority of these people.

Facts don't matter to them when their reality is not based on facts, it's circular logic to expect them to change it when it's not based on it.

 

[DaShuckster]

Facts don't matter to them when their reality is not based on facts, it's circular logic to expect them to change it when it's not based on it.

Once-upon-a-time, the political divide was actually about politics. But over the course of my lifetime, it's become more of a "cultural" thing than differences of opinion regarding governing this nation.

Right-wing tribalism means that facts don't matter. It's all about supporting your 'team.' One might rightly argue, "Isn't our 'team' the United States of America?" But when you believe your tribe is always right, then anything that promotes the ...gasp!... OTHER tribe's approaches and ideas are automatically viewed as horrible regardless of what is being suggested. That's the reason why you see Right-wingers disavowing SCIENCE of all things.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Once-upon-a-time, the political divide was actually about politics. But over the course of my lifetime, it's become more of a "cultural" thing than differences of opinion regarding governing this nation.

Right-wing tribalism means that facts don't matter. It's all about supporting your 'team.' One might rightly argue, "Isn't our 'team' the United States of America?" But when you believe your tribe is always right, then anything that promotes the ...gasp!... OTHER tribe's approaches and ideas are automatically viewed as horrible regardless of what is being suggested. That's the reason why you see Right-wingers disavowing SCIENCE of all things.

Yep, this is the base root of why facts don't matter to them. Their politicians has become their team and in some cases their entire identify. So when a slightly negative news story comes out again showing their "team" in a bad light they flip out and lose all rational argument. They literally get triggered, at a small scale about these facts about their politician. So of course they want to avoid getting triggerered, creating save spaces for themelves. Fox news on the tv. Breitbart and unbiased America online. These places don't provide facts, so they feel safe in them.

Any attempt to bring this curtain of ignorance aside is met with anger and insults, so they stay tucked away in their conspiracy lands. The Boomer generation is mostly a lost cause.

The Boomers a lost cause, they can barely turn on their Facebook without metaphorically burning down the network with horrific examples of technological autism. So God help you if the Public tv is set to anything other than Fox news.