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Trumps middle east peace plan

I’ve read it and it has more legs than the previous plans. The fact Israel is on board is huge, if the Palestinian people can get a real government rather than terrorist will be the big question.
 
Sir Galahad said:
I’ve read it and it has more legs than the previous plans. The fact Israel is on board is huge, if the Palestinian people can get a real government rather than terrorist will be the big question.
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The Palestinian's have already rejected it, so it never had any legs. If Trump is serious about peace talks, he has to actually include the Palestinian's in those talks.
 
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Cubs79 said:
The Palestinian's have already rejected it, so it never had any legs. If Trump is serious about peace talks, he has to actually include the Palestinian's in those talks.
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Which Palestinians? Hamas? The West Bank government? That's the issue here, there are two competing quasi Palestinian governments who claim to speak for their people, one of those groups being an armed terrorist group whose charter calls for the destruction if Israel.
 
fried-chicken said:
Netanyahu was just charged with corruption.

Keep in mind that Trump is SUPER SERIOUS about anti-corruption and stuff.
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Nentanyahu remained in power by a hair, he should have been voted out after being convicted of corruption.

Makes sense that Trump got a deal with him
 
UCFKnight85 said:
Which Palestinians? Hamas? The West Bank government? That's the issue here, there are two competing quasi Palestinian governments who claim to speak for their people, one of those groups being an armed terrorist group whose charter calls for the destruction if Israel.
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It is in the 2nd paragraph of the link. President Abbas called the deal nonsense. The deal basically just gave Israel what they wanted and didn't even bother to talk with or negotiate with Palestine.
 
Cubs79 said:
It is in the 2nd paragraph of the link. President Abbas called the deal nonsense. The deal basically just gave Israel what they wanted and didn't even bother to talk with or negotiate with Palestine.
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Well, ok then. They can whine about how bad things are but if they're not willing to participate or put forth their own proposal then they shouldn't feel entitled to anything better. Our Embassy is now rightly in Jerusalem where it always should have been; they can either simply accept that and move on, or use it as a reason to not participate in this process and do nothing better for their people. Their choice.
 
UCFKnight85 said:
Well, ok then. They can whine about how bad things are but if they're not willing to participate or put forth their own proposal then they shouldn't feel entitled to anything better. Our Embassy is now rightly in Jerusalem where it always should have been; they can either simply accept that and move on, or use it as a reason to not participate in this process and do nothing better for their people. Their choice.
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You say that as if giving Israel everything they want is somehow better for the Palestinian people. But yes, it is their choice, and they have decided this deal wasn't a serious deal. Typically when you have peace talks, negotiations, etc, you should include both sides in the discussions.
 
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Cubs79 said:
You say that as if giving Israel everything they want is somehow better for the Palestinian people. But yes, it is their choice, and they have decided this deal wasn't a serious deal.
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So they don't want their own state? Ok then. It wasn't "take it or leave it" so if they choose not to counter offer or at least participate then they only have themselves to blame.
 
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UCFKnight85 said:
So they don't want their own state? Ok then. It wasn't "take it or leave it" so if they choose not to counter offer or at least participate then they only have themselves to blame.
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They weren't part of any talks and didn't have the opportunity to counter from what I am gathering. Seems like this was strictly Israel-US decisions.

And yes they want their own state, but read about this "deal". It involved Israel annexing even more areas and pushing even more Palestinian's out of their homes and Israel still controlling pretty much the entire area.
 
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Cubs79 said:
They weren't part of any talks and didn't have the opportunity to counter from what I am gathering. Seems like this was strictly Israel-US decisions.

And yes they want their own state, but read about this "deal". It involved Israel annexing even more areas and pushing even more Palestinian's out of their homes and Israel still controlling pretty much the entire area.
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Their territory would double in size and their capitol would be in East Jerusalem. Which is...….exactly what they claimed they wanted.

Israeli leaders have agreed to a framework for a Palestinian state that would see the new country more than double in size with its capital located in Eastern Jerusalem, according to information provided by the White House.

The Trump administration unveiled on Tuesday its long-anticipated plan to achieve peace between Israel and the Palestinians. The plan, which White House officials say has already been agreed to by Israel, would see the Jewish state freezing for four years all construction in contested territories that could be used to form a new Palestinian state.
 
UCFKnight85 said:
Their territory would double in size and their capitol would be in East Jerusalem. Which is...….exactly what they claimed they wanted.

Israeli leaders have agreed to a framework for a Palestinian state that would see the new country more than double in size with its capital located in Eastern Jerusalem, according to information provided by the White House.

The Trump administration unveiled on Tuesday its long-anticipated plan to achieve peace between Israel and the Palestinians. The plan, which White House officials say has already been agreed to by Israel, would see the Jewish state freezing for four years all construction in contested territories that could be used to form a new Palestinian state.
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Uh no. They also want their own fully sovereign state, which this deal doesn't do. It still gives Israel more control of the land and the areas than Palestine. Not to mention it doesn't give them East Jerusalem, it gives them certain neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. It also only puts a freeze on future Israeli developments for 4 years. Meaning 4 years from now, Israel could easily start expanding into their territories again. And the "it doubles" their territory doesn't appear to be accurate. It actually calls for them to give up 30% of their territory and settlements in the West Bank.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/28/politics/donald-trump-benjamin-netanyahu-middle-east-plan/index.html
 
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Cubs79 said:
Uh no. They also want their own fully sovereign state, which this deal doesn't do. It still gives Israel more control of the land and the areas than Palestine. Not to mention it doesn't give them East Jerusalem, it gives them certain neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. It also only puts a freeze on future Israeli developments for 4 years. Meaning 4 years from now, Israel could easily start expanding into their territories again. And the "it doubles" their territory doesn't appear to be accurate. It actually calls for them to give up 30% of their territory and settlements in the West Bank.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/28/politics/donald-trump-benjamin-netanyahu-middle-east-plan/index.html
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They want pre-1967 lines again to include all of east Jerusalem. To which, the Israelis have rightly said "no thanks".
 
Cubs79 said:
Which completely contradicts you saying this deal included everything they wanted.
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lol ok dude. There are things they want that are reasonable, and things they want that are unreasonable. Such as demanding pre-1967 lines be returned to after they helped organize multiple Arab invasions of Israel. Those lines are gone. You invade a country and lose, that's the deal.
 
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UCFKnight85 said:
lol ok dude. There are things they want that are reasonable, and things they want that are unreasonable. Such as demanding pre-1967 lines be returned to after they helped organize multiple Arab invasions of Israel. Those lines are gone. You invade a country and lose, that's the deal.
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Amen, just ask Egypt. It still amazes me that Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back.

Israel now has normalized relations with most of their neighbors, so the Palestinians really only have Iran and Syria on their side, and I won't be surprised if those 2 flip in the next decade.
 
UCFKnight85 said:
lol ok dude. There are things they want that are reasonable, and things they want that are unreasonable. Such as demanding pre-1967 lines be returned to after they helped organize multiple Arab invasions of Israel. Those lines are gone. You invade a country and lose, that's the deal.
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You were the one who contradicted yourself, not me, so not sure why you are giving me the "lol ok dude".

You don't have to agree with what they want, but you can't have this both ways. You can't make it out they like they are the ones not interested in the process, while at the same time excluding them from talks and basically saying they have no say what so ever in the process.
 
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Crazyhole said:
Amen, just ask Egypt. It still amazes me that Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back.

Israel now has normalized relations with most of their neighbors, so the Palestinians really only have Iran and Syria on their side, and I won't be surprised if those 2 flip in the next decade.
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Israel gave it back but under the Camp David accords, they still maintained control over it pretty well. Egypt isn't allowed to use any US supplied advanced technology in the Sinai since the accords drew clear lines that both sides couldn't advance beyond with US arms. That's why the Egyptians are in the Sinai fighting ISIS with old Russian tanks or refurbished M60's. Israel gave it back with an agreement that Egypt wouldn't be able to send mobilized forces into Sinai armed with capability that could again threaten Israel.

A lot of the GCC and Israel are either overtly "more friendly", or friendly behind the scenes. A lot of Israeli military tech now ends up in GCC states but they do it quietly. The Arab states have largely lost their patience with the Palestinians who are their own worst enemy and have sabotaged any real attempt to have the Arab leaders back them at this point.
 
it was a decent proposal but trump definitely needed to get more than just israel involved. i dont really know who the palestinian leaders are, but he needs to try and get some of them in a room. neither side needs to come out of an agreement like this happy. but that is the definition of compromise. i just dont think the palestinians want to compromise.
 
UCFWayne said:
it was a decent proposal but trump definitely needed to get more than just israel involved. i dont really know who the palestinian leaders are, but he needs to try and get some of them in a room. neither side needs to come out of an agreement like this happy. but that is the definition of compromise. i just dont think the palestinians want to compromise.
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Maybe instead of a room, it could be a chamber. Like a chamber with shower heads.
 
This "peace plan" is yet more evidence that the Trump Administration is full of corrupt, incompetent amateurs.
  1. Someone please explain to me how you can 'negotiate' a peace agreement without involving the Palestinians???!? How does that work? Trump boasted in his PC announcing the deal that he "was not elected to do small things." Who here thinks this is a legitimate step-forward for peace?
  2. I watched a Fox interview with Trump's son-in-law and ME guru, Jared Kushner, who actually boasted that this plan was 80-pages long compared to past plans that were 5 or 6 pages AND this plan includes detailed maps (yes, he actually showed off one of the maps to his interviewers.)
  3. Netanyahu has been charged with corruption and Trump is going through an impeachment trial but this is NOT a political face-saving stunt, right guys? We're all supposed to think, "WOW, isn't it AMAZING what these two incredible leaders have hammered out for lasting Middle East Peace." :)
 
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DaShuckster said:
This "peace plan" is yet more evidence that the Trump Administration is full of corrupt, incompetent amateurs.
  1. Someone please explain to me how you can 'negotiate' a peace agreement without involving the Palestinians???!? How does that work? Trump boasted in his PC announcing the deal that he "was not elected to do small things." Who here thinks this is a legitimate step-forward for peace?
  2. I watched a Fox interview with Trump's son-in-law and ME guru, Jared Kushner, who actually boasted that this plan was 80-pages long compared to past plans that were 5 or 6 pages AND this plan includes detailed maps (yes, he actually showed off one of the maps to his interviewers.)
  3. Netanyahu has been charged with corruption and Trump is going through an impeachment trial but this is NOT a political face-saving stunt, right guys? We're all supposed to think, "WOW, isn't it AMAZING what these two incredible leaders have hammered out for lasting Middle East Peace." :)
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[roll]
 
Jared Kushner couldn't even pass a basic SSI background check for his security clearance. Insane. This administration is making the US the laughing stock of the civilized world.
 
DaShuckster said:
This "peace plan" is yet more evidence that the Trump Administration is full of corrupt, incompetent amateurs.
  1. Someone please explain to me how you can 'negotiate' a peace agreement without involving the Palestinians???!? How does that work? Trump boasted in his PC announcing the deal that he "was not elected to do small things." Who here thinks this is a legitimate step-forward for peace?
  2. I watched a Fox interview with Trump's son-in-law and ME guru, Jared Kushner, who actually boasted that this plan was 80-pages long compared to past plans that were 5 or 6 pages AND this plan includes detailed maps (yes, he actually showed off one of the maps to his interviewers.)
  3. Netanyahu has been charged with corruption and Trump is going through an impeachment trial but this is NOT a political face-saving stunt, right guys? We're all supposed to think, "WOW, isn't it AMAZING what these two incredible leaders have hammered out for lasting Middle East Peace." :)
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A better question is how does a country involve a terrorist regime that has no formal dictate to legislate in a treaty? Any "treaty" involving the palestinians is really nothing more than an attempt to get them to stop lobbing bombs at civilians. If Palestine wants to be taken seriously then they need to actually form a government not based on "death to israel". If they do that, not only will the US but also Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Turkey take them seriously. Until that time they are nothing more than a terrorist regime that controls a section of land which should have no part in negotiations, and should be grateful that they havent been wiped out.
 
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Crazyhole said:
Any "treaty" involving the palestinians is really nothing more than an attempt to get them to stop lobbing bombs at civilians
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Yeah boy. Announcing a sham "treaty" for purely crass political purposes -- which totally ignores the Palestinians and their concerns -- is a brilliant way to show respect for both sides and ease tensions. :rolleyes:
 
DaShuckster said:
Yeah boy. Announcing a sham "treaty" for purely crass political purposes -- which totally ignores the Palestinians and their concerns -- is a brilliant way to show respect for both sides and ease tensions. :rolleyes:
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It was a treaty proposal, which Abbas rejected before even seeing it. If the palestinians dont like it then they won't sign it and nothing changes. If they want to grow up and sit at the big boy table then they have an opportunity to but their window is closing, as most of Israel's neighbors are now friendly to them. They can step up to the plate and act like a real country instead of being a hodgepodge of terror cells at any time, sit down at a negotiation and come to a peaceful resolution. In the meantime, Palestine is not a recognized country so israel can grow into the region as much as they want.
 
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Crazyhole said:
It was a treaty proposal, which Abbas rejected before even seeing it.
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Weird how that kind of thing happens when the President -- with much fanfare -- announces a plan that had zero Palestinian input.

If anyone expects the Palestinians to "grow up," it might help if their concerns were taken seriously in any legitimate attempt to bring peace to the region.

This incredibly stupid and asinine attempt at diplomacy -- all for a fleeting moment of publicity -- shows that the one who isn't ready for 'the Big Boy table' is Jared Kushner.
 
DaShuckster said:
Weird how that kind of thing happens when the President -- with much fanfare -- announces a plan that had zero Palestinian input.

If anyone expects the Palestinians to "grow up," it might help if their concerns were taken seriously in any legitimate attempt to bring peace to the region.

This incredibly stupid and asinine attempt at diplomacy -- all for a fleeting moment of publicity -- shows that the one who isn't ready for 'the Big Boy table' is Jared Kushner.
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Negotiations have to start somewhere. If the Palestinians have suggestions other than "death to israel" they have the chance to make their case.
 
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Here's how Shookster approaches every issue:

- Look for anything Trump is involved in
- Determine who or what the "other side" is or who he wants to make the other side
- Instantly become a martyr for the other side cause, despite not really giving a shit
- Make massively dramatic, insane posts that use hyperbole about Trump
- As soon as the topic is off news, stop caring about group he supposedly was weeping for when big meanie Trump was available to attack
 
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this was about trying to bring the palestinians to the table to negotiate. from what i have read they rejected it before even reading it. that is actually pretty sad that they would do that. was it perfect? absolutely not, but its a decent starting point.

they complain about getting their own state all the time. well here is their opportunity. if they dont want to take it, that is on their leadership.

honestly, the only way i think this conflict ends is when israel is finally sick of their crap and destroys them.
 
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