Anti-Vaxxers at it Again

[UCFKnight85]

Yep.

That's why I don't understand people who get pissed off at me for not having the Chicken Pox innoculation. Forget the mortality rate. And I never get tired of the ignorance on the facts of Shingles.

If I ever get Chicken Pox, yes, I will get the Shingles innoculation after that. But until then, and VZV is actually in my system, all my docs have always agreed, no need. I can never get Shingles until it's introduced.

This whole issue only affects me, not others. That's what I don't understand. I cannot get the Shingles, so I cannot spread VZV! People who have had Chicken Pox can get Shingles and can spread it!

People think the Chicken Pox innoculation helps your body build up an immunity. No, it introduces the virus -- which stays with one for life, including causing the Shingles whenever the immune system is weakened (one of the biggest, combo-complication diseases) -- which the body never defeats.

Those of us without VZV, and there's a growing argument that some immune systems are capable of preventing it from entering via communicable methods (more research is needed, just like more is needed on the VZL innoculation themselves) are not the problem at all. Again, we really don't know what the innoculation is doing, and there's a good argument it's efficacy is not good at all. That defeats the purpose with such an extremely low rate of mortality, because the statistics aren't coming down, while Shingles are going up, way up -- although there's no proof of what is causing that at this time.

Now if you do have VZV in your system, yes, get the Shingles innoculation, and on the recommended schedule. Once VZV is in your system, you need to take it seriously as you age. Insurance usually won't pay for it before 60, but it's worth the $300 or so in your 50s, even late 40s, depending on health. Because it can attack when you're weak, and what the innoculation does is artificially 'draw it out,' so your body can 're-learn' how to 'fight it.'

And that's my other problem ...

Stop the insanity with the "innoculation busses"! Why?

• MDV vials are not 100% safe, mercury doesn't kill everything, plus ...
• Technicians are not RNs or others, and they don't know what they are doing (there's growing documentation on this), leading to ...
• Contamination, transfer, etc... from one person to another, but most of all ...
• Even if you believe the "vaccination busses" are 100% safe, don't go back into the office or public areas, instead ...
• Go home, rest, as your immune system will be weakened, and it's the best time to catch something else ... right after many, common innoculations!

That's why I always go get a SDV, on a Friday, and go home, go to be early, get an extended nights sleep (12 hours), and my body totally makes 100% full use of that low impact time to knock the heck out of the bug -- especially if it's live, and not dead (body needs to fight the live, and cannot learn from its DNA dead.

I'm tired of the US media and the attitude that is poor and ineffective. But businesses love the busses, just like big pharma loves the rate of new innoculations and, even more so, medical implants that are even less regulated.

And in the US, we do. I think the US media and the "you're a stupid anti-vaxxer and cause all the issues" folk, literally miss that.

In the UK, that's not the case. The NIH started coming under fire earlier this decade for mass innoculations at a young age, well before 12 months, and plenty of stuff even US school districts don't require, and it turned around and started smearing doctors. Why? Look at the corporations involved, very scary, kinda akin to a movie I saw last decade. Since it's a single payer socialist system over there, and they even go after doctors who opt for 'independent consultation,' (since their options for practicing are limited). it's put an entire chill on the medical community. If you 'get out of line,' you'll be left writing books and nothing else.

At least the FDA and CDC don't always agree here in the US, and people are free to question things. I do get tired of people not reading the FDA and CDC reports.

Case-in-point: It's not right-wing Fox News watchers that are causing the supermajority of Measles outbreaks in the US.

• https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

Furthermore, Mexico is having the same rate as the US, even though they have a 96% vaccination rate to the US' 92%.

Define "selfish"? I don't understand your absolutist, 1-dimensional, demonizing attitude.

Over in the UK, they've kinda taken -- what I call -- the "Catholic approach." I.e., like Catholics who baptize kids so they can "go to heaven, just in case they die," the UK NIH has been pushing that attitude with younger and younger kids, where they aren't immunized at such a young age, and not with so many in so little batches, 'just in case'

And we're currently undergoing a major series of issues with Indian and Chinese medicines and vials. I don't think people realize how bad it's getting. Beyond the culture and other sustainment aspects, impurities are getting out-of-control. And the FDA really doesn't exactly have a lot of people to track things, and relies on the industry too much.


Obviously you don't fully understand 'herd immunity.'

Furthermore, in the case of VZL, you're going to see an increased amount of studies trying to find out why the rate of Shingles are up. Is it because we're less healthy into our older age, and that means our immune systems are more compromised? (they've already dismissed HIV and Hep-C, it's people without them as well) Or is it the number of VZL innoculations since the mid '90s? Especially the Chicken Pox innoculation, not so much the Shingles (since people already have VZV at that point).

Right now, it's going to be difficult. But in another 10-20 years, we'll have more data points to interpolate. I.e., far more kids are getting VZL now, than just 10 let alone 20 years ago, not just adults.

And you can be sure of one thing ... if there is evidence to go against the VZL innoculation, big pharma will fight it. Just like Merck did for years, until the FDA couldn't ignore the rate of complications with how they were culturing and packaging their HPV innoculation -- even as the CDC was still promoting it, and Merck was wining'n dining doctors and regulators. The lawsuits are not from anti-vaxxers, but thousands of children with complications (not autism) over a cocktail 'rushed to market' (especially since there were other competitors too).

Understand it's things like that which give ammunition to the anti-vaxxers, because it really did happen, and 'safe' can be easily disproven. This is where the Liberals are disagreeing with Progressives, heavily, as Big Pharma and the US media are on the same page, and there's a lot of assumptions out there that contradict science.

And don't get me started on medical implants. That's even worse.

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ

TL;DR

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

A

Jesus Tap Dancing Christ

TL;DR

 

[UCFBS]

And once again ... everyone doesn't care to argue with detail, scientific and market realities. They are just pissed at me because I argue Libertarian 'individual choice' and Constitutionality.

F--- you ignorant fools. You're why we're going down the toilet. You cannot be objective when you get your collective panties in a bunch. Because I won't tote the Conservative or Progressive lines.

Ninja and 85 agreeing?! Yep. Why?

Because 3rd party viewpoints pissed of the first 2 parties, no matter how partisan they are against one another. That's why they aren't allowed into debates either, because they would win them ... even though people still go out and vote their own party.

I care about the Constitutionality and respect for the supermajority of the people. You guys care about undermining the Constitution and the supermajority of the people, bypassing it and them. How do you think that'll work for our future?

 

[NinjaKnight]

Goddamn I love this place

No way this guy is for real, but I still love it.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

QUOTE="NinjaKnight, post: 1542729, member: 950"]



Goddamn I love this place

No way this guy is for real, but I still love it.[/QUOTE]

WAIT A SECOND???? BULL SHIT IS A LIBERTARIAN!?!?!?!?

And no one reads your got damn stupid novels, bull shit. You are a selfish as asshole who thankfully has no kids.

 

[UCFKnight85]

And once again ... everyone doesn't care to argue with detail, scientific and market realities. They are just pissed at me because I argue Libertarian 'individual choice' and Constitutionality.

F--- you ignorant fools. You're why we're going down the toilet. You cannot be objective when you get your collective panties in a bunch. Because I won't tote the Conservative or Progressive lines.

Ninja and 85 agreeing?! Yep. Why?

Because 3rd party viewpoints pissed of the first 2 parties, no matter how partisan they are against one another. That's why they aren't allowed into debates either, because they would win them ... even though people still go out and vote their own party.

I care about the Constitutionality and respect for the supermajority of the people. You guys care about undermining the Constitution and the supermajority of the people, bypassing it and them. How do you think that'll work for our future?

Obviously I didn't read your prior thesis paper but I have no idea what you're even attempting to argue. That it's a "Libertarian position" to question if vaccines work?

 

[ChrisKnight06]

Bless his heart

 

[UCFBS]

Obviously I didn't read your prior thesis paper but I have no idea what you're even attempting to argue. That it's a "Libertarian position" to question if vaccines work?

Because you're now taking issue with anything and everything I post, just like Ninja - - who liked your post - - because you're upset with me in the other thread on abortion.

None of you guys can be remotely objective. No wonder this is becoming the same dozen people or so.

At least the Progressives cannot say I'm a Conservative and will always agree with Trump and 85, at least not without looking like hypocrites.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Because you're now taking issue with anything and everything I post, just like Ninja - - who liked your post - - because you're upset with me in the other thread on abortion.

None of you guys can be remotely objective. No wonder this is becoming the same dozen people or so.

At least the Progressives cannot say I'm a Conservative and will always agree with Trump and 85, at least not without looking like hypocrites.

EHRMEHRGERD!!!! NINJA LIKED 85'S POST!!!!!!

My God you are a whiny little snowflake. It's absolutely pathetic.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Because you're now taking issue with anything and everything I post, just like Ninja - - who liked your post - - because you're upset with me in the other thread on abortion.

None of you guys can be remotely objective. No wonder this is becoming the same dozen people or so.

At least the Progressives cannot say I'm a Conservative and will always agree with Trump and 85, at least not without looking like hypocrites.

lol I'm not upset with you about anything. I literally don't know what you're attempting to argue here. I just see codewords such as "Libertarian!" and "Constitution!" being thrown around a lot, and I wonder what it has to do with the measles vaccine.

 

[NinjaKnight]

EHRMEHRGERD!!!! NINJA LIKED 85'S POST!!!!!!

My God you are a whiny little snowflake. It's absolutely pathetic.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that pictures a more vocal "red stapler guy" whenever BS goes off on one of his War & Peace diatribes rambling about the exact same nonsensical bullshit over and over again.

 

[NinjaKnight]

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

[QUOTE="NinjaKnight, post: 1543243, member: 950"

[/QUOTE

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!


Jajajajajajajajajajajajanajaj!!!!!!!!

 

[UCFBS]

Yes, we Libertarians are insufferable ... because we have a detailed answer to complex problems and force people to think beyond a 3rd grade level and emotions.

DRINK!

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Yes, we Libertarians are insufferable ... because we have detailed answer to complex problems and force people to think beyond a 3rd grade level and emotions.

DRINK!

No, you don't.

 

[UCFBS]

No, you don't.

How's the ACA working out for 'ya?
And the Republican 'fix' to it too?

Many have repeatedly asked to look back at the '94 Republican plan, and many of us have looked to the Swiss system, among a couple of others.

But right now it looks like we're going down the UK NIH route, because we don't have free market anything. Yep.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

How's the ACA working out for 'ya?
And the Republican 'fix' to it too?

Many have repeatedly asked to look back at the '94 Republican plan, and many of us have looked to the Swiss system, among a couple of others.

But right now it looks like we're going down the UK NIH route, because we don't have free market anything. Yep.

Like I said: No, you don't.

 

[UCFBS]

Like I said: No, you don't.

Yes, I don't understand why people keep voting for the same crap and lack of leadership.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Yes, I don't understand why people keep voting for the same crap and lack of leadership.

Yup, still don’t.

 

[Crazyhole]

Yes, I don't understand why people keep voting for the same crap and lack of leadership.

FWIW, it would probably go a long ways towards gaining credibility here if you didn't always validate your position by prefacing it with "as a libertarian". If you take a liberal or conservative position on something then dont claim that its the libertarian stance. Libertarianism is supposed to be more individual, but at times ypu come across as if your position is a widely accepted one in some mythical political group. And taking each issue individually on their own merit is more effective than saying x, x, x, and x are all about civil liberty, and this is in that group. Guns have nothing to do with speech or abortion. Privacy has nothing to do with states rights or slavery.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

Yep.

That's why I don't understand people who get pissed off at me for not having the Chicken Pox innoculation. Forget the mortality rate. And I never get tired of the ignorance on the facts of Shingles.

If I ever get Chicken Pox, yes, I will get the Shingles innoculation after that. But until then, and VZV is actually in my system, all my docs have always agreed, no need. I can never get Shingles until it's introduced.

This whole issue only affects me, not others. That's what I don't understand. I cannot get the Shingles, so I cannot spread VZV! People who have had Chicken Pox can get Shingles and can spread it!

People think the Chicken Pox innoculation helps your body build up an immunity. No, it introduces the virus -- which stays with one for life, including causing the Shingles whenever the immune system is weakened (one of the biggest, combo-complication diseases) -- which the body never defeats.

Those of us without VZV, and there's a growing argument that some immune systems are capable of preventing it from entering via communicable methods (more research is needed, just like more is needed on the VZL innoculation themselves) are not the problem at all. Again, we really don't know what the innoculation is doing, and there's a good argument it's efficacy is not good at all. That defeats the purpose with such an extremely low rate of mortality, because the statistics aren't coming down, while Shingles are going up, way up -- although there's no proof of what is causing that at this time.

Now if you do have VZV in your system, yes, get the Shingles innoculation, and on the recommended schedule. Once VZV is in your system, you need to take it seriously as you age. Insurance usually won't pay for it before 60, but it's worth the $300 or so in your 50s, even late 40s, depending on health. Because it can attack when you're weak, and what the innoculation does is artificially 'draw it out,' so your body can 're-learn' how to 'fight it.'

And that's my other problem ...

Stop the insanity with the "innoculation busses"! Why?

• MDV vials are not 100% safe, mercury doesn't kill everything, plus ...
• Technicians are not RNs or others, and they don't know what they are doing (there's growing documentation on this), leading to ...
• Contamination, transfer, etc... from one person to another, but most of all ...
• Even if you believe the "vaccination busses" are 100% safe, don't go back into the office or public areas, instead ...
• Go home, rest, as your immune system will be weakened, and it's the best time to catch something else ... right after many, common innoculations!

That's why I always go get a SDV, on a Friday, and go home, go to be early, get an extended nights sleep (12 hours), and my body totally makes 100% full use of that low impact time to knock the heck out of the bug -- especially if it's live, and not dead (body needs to fight the live, and cannot learn from its DNA dead.

I'm tired of the US media and the attitude that is poor and ineffective. But businesses love the busses, just like big pharma loves the rate of new innoculations and, even more so, medical implants that are even less regulated.

And in the US, we do. I think the US media and the "you're a stupid anti-vaxxer and cause all the issues" folk, literally miss that.

In the UK, that's not the case. The NIH started coming under fire earlier this decade for mass innoculations at a young age, well before 12 months, and plenty of stuff even US school districts don't require, and it turned around and started smearing doctors. Why? Look at the corporations involved, very scary, kinda akin to a movie I saw last decade. Since it's a single payer socialist system over there, and they even go after doctors who opt for 'independent consultation,' (since their options for practicing are limited). it's put an entire chill on the medical community. If you 'get out of line,' you'll be left writing books and nothing else.

At least the FDA and CDC don't always agree here in the US, and people are free to question things. I do get tired of people not reading the FDA and CDC reports.

Case-in-point: It's not right-wing Fox News watchers that are causing the supermajority of Measles outbreaks in the US.

• https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

Furthermore, Mexico is having the same rate as the US, even though they have a 96% vaccination rate to the US' 92%.

Define "selfish"? I don't understand your absolutist, 1-dimensional, demonizing attitude.

Over in the UK, they've kinda taken -- what I call -- the "Catholic approach." I.e., like Catholics who baptize kids so they can "go to heaven, just in case they die," the UK NIH has been pushing that attitude with younger and younger kids, where they aren't immunized at such a young age, and not with so many in so little batches, 'just in case'

And we're currently undergoing a major series of issues with Indian and Chinese medicines and vials. I don't think people realize how bad it's getting. Beyond the culture and other sustainment aspects, impurities are getting out-of-control. And the FDA really doesn't exactly have a lot of people to track things, and relies on the industry too much.


Obviously you don't fully understand 'herd immunity.'

Furthermore, in the case of VZL, you're going to see an increased amount of studies trying to find out why the rate of Shingles are up. Is it because we're less healthy into our older age, and that means our immune systems are more compromised? (they've already dismissed HIV and Hep-C, it's people without them as well) Or is it the number of VZL innoculations since the mid '90s? Especially the Chicken Pox innoculation, not so much the Shingles (since people already have VZV at that point).

Right now, it's going to be difficult. But in another 10-20 years, we'll have more data points to interpolate. I.e., far more kids are getting VZL now, than just 10 let alone 20 years ago, not just adults.

And you can be sure of one thing ... if there is evidence to go against the VZL innoculation, big pharma will fight it. Just like Merck did for years, until the FDA couldn't ignore the rate of complications with how they were culturing and packaging their HPV innoculation -- even as the CDC was still promoting it, and Merck was wining'n dining doctors and regulators. The lawsuits are not from anti-vaxxers, but thousands of children with complications (not autism) over a cocktail 'rushed to market' (especially since there were other competitors too).

Understand it's things like that which give ammunition to the anti-vaxxers, because it really did happen, and 'safe' can be easily disproven. This is where the Liberals are disagreeing with Progressives, heavily, as Big Pharma and the US media are on the same page, and there's a lot of assumptions out there that contradict science.

And don't get me started on medical implants. That's even worse.

Dude, you are either stunningly ignorant or willfully misleading on much of what you're saying.

You keep using the term "inoculation" and that tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Inoculation and vaccination are often used synonymously, but they are actually two different forms of immunization. Modern medicine left inoculations far behind with smallpox and rabies in favor of vaccination due to higher risk factors and lower efficacy.

Regarding political ideology and vaccine denialism, many studies and surveys have been performed in recent years in light of increasing vaccine exemption rates and high-profile outbreaks. Results show non-medical exemption rates fairly even between liberals and conservatives (if not slightly tilted to the right), concentrated on the extreme ends of political spectrum. Vaccination is one of those topics that validates the horsehoe theory; liberal avs tend to reject on naturalistic fallacy and anti-capitalism grounds while conservative avs are that way on an anti-government and "freedom" basis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

I'm not sure why you're going on about the Shingles vaccine. If you indeed have no evidence of VZV (both dormant virus and antibodies), that doesn't mean you have "natural immunity," it means you have no immunity at all. It means you are in the 1% statistical anomoly of adults who have never been exposed to varicella infection. Forget the Shingles vax, Shingles is the least of your worries; you and your doctor should be concerned with primary chicken pox infection. Varicella morbidity and mortality is much higher in adults than children.

There is no evidence the Shingles vax protects against primary chicken pox infection, so it makes sense your doctor wouldn't recommend it. But I'm at a loss why they aren't pushing you to get the Chicken Pox vax. Why would you even gamble with your life like that? Some twisted sense of biological purity? Sacrifice to the altar of freedom?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0Qi7YOtiTDCGoaUZHUuNwm&cshid=1549318596418
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1123733/

Regarding your comments about "Mercury" in the flu shot, I'm assuming you're referring to thimerosal (ethylmercury) instead of elemental Mercury or methylmercury (neither of which are in, or have ever been, in vaccines). Thimerosal is an extremely effective and safe anti-septic and fungal that has been in use for almost 100 years. It wasn't until a corrupt British quack (with financial interest in both a proprietary MMR vaccine and a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers) launched the modern antivax movement by issuing a fabricated, discredited and ultimately retracted study linking thimerosal to autism that anyone questioned its safety. But, like you said, those who irrationally fear adult-onset autism, there is the single-dose flu shot available at most clinics.

Vaccines don't "weaken" the immune system, they trigger an immune response. The body is capable of handling a viral load magnitudes greater than the pathogens that are present in vaccines, even as infants.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124

I almost spit out my coffee when you said the body can't develop immunity from a dead pathogen as the very flu vaccine you talk about kicking back on a weekend in order to develop a sufficient immune response from is an inactivated (dead) virus. Other examples are polio and pertussis. Flumist was an attenuated (live) virus but was pulled because efficacy was found to be poor.

Regarding the HPV vaccine (Gardasil in particular), next to the MMR, it is probably subject to the most antivax conspiracy ramblings. The following articles are extremely detailed refutations of all of it. HPV was not "rushed to market;" R&D was over 10 years and clinical trials over 4.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-gardasil-not-so-fast/
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/ske...op-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/#more-6254

Any other tired, nonscientific antivax talking points you want to throw out?

 

[NinjaKnight]

Dude, you are either stunningly ignorant or willfully misleading on much of what you're saying.

You keep using the term "inoculation" and that tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Inoculation and vaccination are often used synonymously, but they are actually two different forms of immunization. Modern medicine left inoculations far behind with smallpox and rabies in favor of vaccination due to higher risk factors and lower efficacy.

Regarding political ideology and vaccine denialism, many studies and surveys have been performed in recent years in light of increasing vaccine exemption rates and high-profile outbreaks. Results show non-medical exemption rates fairly even between liberals and conservatives (if not slightly tilted to the right), concentrated on the extreme ends of political spectrum. Vaccination is one of those topics that validates the horsehoe theory; liberal avs tend to reject on naturalistic fallacy and anti-capitalism grounds while conservative avs are that way on an anti-government and "freedom" basis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

I'm not sure why you're going on about the Shingles vaccine. If you indeed have no evidence of VZV (both dormant virus and antibodies), that doesn't mean you have "natural immunity," it means you have no immunity at all. It means you are in the 1% statistical anomoly of adults who have never been exposed to varicella infection. Forget the Shingles vax, Shingles is the least of your worries; you and your doctor should be concerned with primary chicken pox infection. Varicella morbidity and mortality is much higher in adults than children.

There is no evidence the Shingles vax protects against primary chicken pox infection, so it makes sense your doctor wouldn't recommend it. But I'm at a loss why they aren't pushing you to get the Chicken Pox vax. Why would you even gamble with your life like that? Some twisted sense of biological purity? Sacrifice to the altar of freedom?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0Qi7YOtiTDCGoaUZHUuNwm&cshid=1549318596418
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1123733/

Regarding your comments about "Mercury" in the flu shot, I'm assuming you're referring to thimerosal (ethylmercury) instead of elemental Mercury or methylmercury (neither of which are in, or have ever been, in vaccines). Thimerosal is an extremely effective and safe anti-septic and fungal that has been in use for almost 100 years. It wasn't until a corrupt British quack (with financial interest in both a proprietary MMR vaccine and a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers) launched the modern antivax movement by issuing a fabricated, discredited and ultimately retracted study linking thimerosal to autism that anyone questioned its safety. But, like you said, those who irrationally fear adult-onset autism, there is the single-dose flu shot available at most clinics.

Vaccines don't "weaken" the immune system, they trigger an immune response. The body is capable of handling a viral load magnitudes greater than the pathogens that are present in vaccines, even as infants.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124

I almost spit out my coffee when you said the body can't develop immunity from a dead pathogen as the very flu vaccine you talk about kicking back on a weekend in order to develop a sufficient immune response from is an inactivated (dead) virus. Other examples are polio and pertussis. Flumist was an attenuated (live) virus but was pulled because efficacy was found to be poor.

Regarding the HPV vaccine (Gardasil in particular), next to the MMR, it is probably subject to the most antivax conspiracy ramblings. The following articles are extremely detailed refutations of all of it. HPV was not "rushed to market;" R&D was over 10 years and clinical trials over 4.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-gardasil-not-so-fast/
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/ske...op-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/#more-6254

Any other tired, nonscientific antivax talking points you want to throw out?

The answer to your first sentence is yes. BS is well-known on here for making up completely insane arguments and then typing goddamn novels trying to back them up

 

[tribbleorlfl]

Regarding the recent outbreaks of measles nationwide, I think it's time for all states to follow MS, WV and CA's lead and remove all personal belief and religious exemptions. You don't want to vaccinate your kids for whatever ridiculous, non-medical reason? Fine, just live with the consequences of not being able to send your little disease vectors to day care or school.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

That's pretty much my thought. If you want to participate in society you play by the rules. If you don't want to that's fine.. head for the mountains and don't bother anyone.

 

[UCFKnight85]

That's pretty much my thought. If you want to participate in society you play by the rules. If you don't want to that's fine.. head for the mountains and don't bother anyone.

My son will soon go to a Christian preschool and that’s the requirement. Vaccinate and prove it or don’t come in. That’s what I would demand of any place we send him.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Dude, you are either stunningly ignorant or willfully misleading on much of what you're saying.

You keep using the term "inoculation" and that tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Inoculation and vaccination are often used synonymously, but they are actually two different forms of immunization. Modern medicine left inoculations far behind with smallpox and rabies in favor of vaccination due to higher risk factors and lower efficacy.

Regarding political ideology and vaccine denialism, many studies and surveys have been performed in recent years in light of increasing vaccine exemption rates and high-profile outbreaks. Results show non-medical exemption rates fairly even between liberals and conservatives (if not slightly tilted to the right), concentrated on the extreme ends of political spectrum. Vaccination is one of those topics that validates the horsehoe theory; liberal avs tend to reject on naturalistic fallacy and anti-capitalism grounds while conservative avs are that way on an anti-government and "freedom" basis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

I'm not sure why you're going on about the Shingles vaccine. If you indeed have no evidence of VZV (both dormant virus and antibodies), that doesn't mean you have "natural immunity," it means you have no immunity at all. It means you are in the 1% statistical anomoly of adults who have never been exposed to varicella infection. Forget the Shingles vax, Shingles is the least of your worries; you and your doctor should be concerned with primary chicken pox infection. Varicella morbidity and mortality is much higher in adults than children.

There is no evidence the Shingles vax protects against primary chicken pox infection, so it makes sense your doctor wouldn't recommend it. But I'm at a loss why they aren't pushing you to get the Chicken Pox vax. Why would you even gamble with your life like that? Some twisted sense of biological purity? Sacrifice to the altar of freedom?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0Qi7YOtiTDCGoaUZHUuNwm&cshid=1549318596418
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1123733/

Regarding your comments about "Mercury" in the flu shot, I'm assuming you're referring to thimerosal (ethylmercury) instead of elemental Mercury or methylmercury (neither of which are in, or have ever been, in vaccines). Thimerosal is an extremely effective and safe anti-septic and fungal that has been in use for almost 100 years. It wasn't until a corrupt British quack (with financial interest in both a proprietary MMR vaccine and a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers) launched the modern antivax movement by issuing a fabricated, discredited and ultimately retracted study linking thimerosal to autism that anyone questioned its safety. But, like you said, those who irrationally fear adult-onset autism, there is the single-dose flu shot available at most clinics.

Vaccines don't "weaken" the immune system, they trigger an immune response. The body is capable of handling a viral load magnitudes greater than the pathogens that are present in vaccines, even as infants.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124

I almost spit out my coffee when you said the body can't develop immunity from a dead pathogen as the very flu vaccine you talk about kicking back on a weekend in order to develop a sufficient immune response from is an inactivated (dead) virus. Other examples are polio and pertussis. Flumist was an attenuated (live) virus but was pulled because efficacy was found to be poor.

Regarding the HPV vaccine (Gardasil in particular), next to the MMR, it is probably subject to the most antivax conspiracy ramblings. The following articles are extremely detailed refutations of all of it. HPV was not "rushed to market;" R&D was over 10 years and clinical trials over 4.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-gardasil-not-so-fast/
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/ske...op-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/#more-6254

Any other tired, nonscientific antivax talking points you want to throw out?

Hello 911? I’d like to report a murder...

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

There have been few epic takedowns like the one we just witnessed. triableorlfl's post needs to be moved to the damn hall of fame. What a complete and utter beat down of UCFBS.

F--- you ignorant fools. You're why we're going down the toilet. You cannot be objective when you get your collective panties in a bunch.

GTFO. You need a long vacation from here and you owe several of us an apology for acting like a petulant donkey.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Dude, you are either stunningly ignorant or willfully misleading on much of what you're saying.

You keep using the term "inoculation" and that tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Inoculation and vaccination are often used synonymously, but they are actually two different forms of immunization. Modern medicine left inoculations far behind with smallpox and rabies in favor of vaccination due to higher risk factors and lower efficacy.

Regarding political ideology and vaccine denialism, many studies and surveys have been performed in recent years in light of increasing vaccine exemption rates and high-profile outbreaks. Results show non-medical exemption rates fairly even between liberals and conservatives (if not slightly tilted to the right), concentrated on the extreme ends of political spectrum. Vaccination is one of those topics that validates the horsehoe theory; liberal avs tend to reject on naturalistic fallacy and anti-capitalism grounds while conservative avs are that way on an anti-government and "freedom" basis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

I'm not sure why you're going on about the Shingles vaccine. If you indeed have no evidence of VZV (both dormant virus and antibodies), that doesn't mean you have "natural immunity," it means you have no immunity at all. It means you are in the 1% statistical anomoly of adults who have never been exposed to varicella infection. Forget the Shingles vax, Shingles is the least of your worries; you and your doctor should be concerned with primary chicken pox infection. Varicella morbidity and mortality is much higher in adults than children.

There is no evidence the Shingles vax protects against primary chicken pox infection, so it makes sense your doctor wouldn't recommend it. But I'm at a loss why they aren't pushing you to get the Chicken Pox vax. Why would you even gamble with your life like that? Some twisted sense of biological purity? Sacrifice to the altar of freedom?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0Qi7YOtiTDCGoaUZHUuNwm&cshid=1549318596418
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1123733/

Regarding your comments about "Mercury" in the flu shot, I'm assuming you're referring to thimerosal (ethylmercury) instead of elemental Mercury or methylmercury (neither of which are in, or have ever been, in vaccines). Thimerosal is an extremely effective and safe anti-septic and fungal that has been in use for almost 100 years. It wasn't until a corrupt British quack (with financial interest in both a proprietary MMR vaccine and a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers) launched the modern antivax movement by issuing a fabricated, discredited and ultimately retracted study linking thimerosal to autism that anyone questioned its safety. But, like you said, those who irrationally fear adult-onset autism, there is the single-dose flu shot available at most clinics.

Vaccines don't "weaken" the immune system, they trigger an immune response. The body is capable of handling a viral load magnitudes greater than the pathogens that are present in vaccines, even as infants.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124

I almost spit out my coffee when you said the body can't develop immunity from a dead pathogen as the very flu vaccine you talk about kicking back on a weekend in order to develop a sufficient immune response from is an inactivated (dead) virus. Other examples are polio and pertussis. Flumist was an attenuated (live) virus but was pulled because efficacy was found to be poor.

Regarding the HPV vaccine (Gardasil in particular), next to the MMR, it is probably subject to the most antivax conspiracy ramblings. The following articles are extremely detailed refutations of all of it. HPV was not "rushed to market;" R&D was over 10 years and clinical trials over 4.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-gardasil-not-so-fast/
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/ske...op-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/#more-6254

Any other tired, nonscientific antivax talking points you want to throw out?

You’re clearly just upset with him and can’t fully appreciate the forward thinking that he brings to the board , As A Libertarian

 

[UCFBS]

There have been few epic takedowns like the one we just witnessed. triableorlfl's post needs to be moved to the damn hall of fame. What a complete and utter beat down of UCFBS.
GTFO. You need a long vacation from here and you owe several of us an apology for acting like a petulant donkey.

What 'beat down'?! I actually agree with @tribbleorlfl on most everything!

You guys debate on a 3rd grader level. That's why nothing gets solved. That's why I threw the censored f-bomb at all of you doing it too. You guys will argue with each other ... until I come in, and require deep understanding. So then you'll both stop your bickering to hate me.

At least @tribbleorlfl is deep, which I can respect. That's why I agree with most everything he said. Now, it's just on him to recognize what I actually said! Not what you 3rd graders think.

Now, let's go through his post ...

Dude, you are either stunningly ignorant or willfully misleading on much of what you're saying.

No, you're mis-reading what I'm saying, because your applying the anti-vaxxer template.

But that said, thank you for actually reading and taking the time to understand. I hope this response clears everything up ...

You keep using the term "inoculation" and that tells me you don't really know what you're talking about. Inoculation and vaccination are often used synonymously, but they are actually two different forms of immunization. Modern medicine left inoculations far behind with smallpox and rabies in favor of vaccination due to higher risk factors and lower efficacy.

Then you're not understanding what some of these newer vaccines are, pushed by Big Pharma. Please research exactly what the VZL is.

I use the term 'inoculation' for a reason. In reality, things like VZL aren't really either a vaccine or inoculation, as people use them. I use the term 'innoculation' to purposely demonize Big Pharma, because things like VZL aren't exactly a vaccine that eradicates or prevents things.

You still get the live virus. You can get Shingles later in life as a result of the Chicken Pox vaccine. Those who haven't had it, and have not had the vaccine, cannot. That's why it's far more like an 'inoculation.'

People should think of VZL as kinda like "training your body." You need them regularly for them to work, especially later in life in the case of the Shingles. Same with the flu shot.

Can we agree on that, for starters?

Regarding political ideology and vaccine denialism, many studies and surveys have been performed in recent years in light of increasing vaccine exemption rates and high-profile outbreaks. Results show non-medical exemption rates fairly even between liberals and conservatives (if not slightly tilted to the right), concentrated on the extreme ends of political spectrum. Vaccination is one of those topics that validates the horsehoe theory; liberal avs tend to reject on naturalistic fallacy and anti-capitalism grounds while conservative avs are that way on an anti-government and "freedom" basis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5784985/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...follow-the-usual-political-polarization-81001

Exactly! We 100% agree.

The thing here is ... among their half-truths, there is still a modicum of truth.

The FDA is in a serious 'fight' with Big Pharma over efficacy.
And why I don't believe for a second that vaccines are behind

I'm not sure why you're going on about the Shingles vaccine. If you indeed have no evidence of VZV (both dormant virus and antibodies),

Correct! Which brings me to ...

that doesn't mean you have "natural immunity," it means you have no immunity at all. It means you are in the 1% statistical anomoly of adults who have never been exposed to varicella infection.

Or our bodies won't take it in via airbourne or touch communicable methods. Yes, that's where we 1% come from!

There is a theory that we literally have direct fluid exchange to get it. My brother had chicken pox, and I played with all the same toys he did, and 'roughhoused' like a pair of Irish Twins do.

Forget the Shingles vax, Shingles is the least of your worries;

Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!!! Thank you!!! Thank you!!!

I.e., if one more Pro-Vaxxer tells me I can get the Shingles -- the "worse form of Chicken Pox" -- because I've never had the Chicken Pox ... grrrr!!!

you and your doctor should be concerned with primary chicken pox infection. Varicella morbidity and mortality is much higher in adults than children.

But how much more than the Shingles, including those who had the Chicken Pox as a kid, then the Shingles inoculation?!?!?!

That's where the statistics get interesting! Read on ...

There is no evidence the Shingles vax protects against primary chicken pox infection, so it makes sense your doctor wouldn't recommend it.

Correct! And in the same regard, after much discussions of all my 'exposures' to it, and the fact that VZV isn't in my system, the doctors all agree ... I might be that outlier 1%.

But I'm at a loss why they aren't pushing you to get the Chicken Pox vax. Why would you even gamble with your life like that? Some twisted sense of biological purity? Sacrifice to the altar of freedom?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0Qi7YOtiTDCGoaUZHUuNwm&cshid=1549318596418
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1123733/

Because the chance of me dying or having complications from Chicken Pox as an adult is lower than if I get the Shingles, even if I've had the Shingles innoculation.

If I don't have VZV in my system, I can never have that! And there's good evidence that there are many of us that cannot get it through common methods. I'd literally have to transfer the virus directly into my blood.

Now do you see what I'm actually saying?!

Now if I do ever get the Chicken Pox ... yes, I will start getting VZL inocuations on schedule. But not until then.

This is what my doctor and I have long discussed.

Regarding your comments about "Mercury" in the flu shot, I'm assuming you're referring to thimerosal (ethylmercury) instead of elemental Mercury or methylmercury (neither of which are in, or have ever been, in vaccines). Thimerosal is an extremely effective and safe anti-septic and fungal that has been in use for almost 100 years.

Correct, it's extremely effective. No argument!

But it does not prevent sloppy technicians from transferring germs in other ways. That's why I never get MDVs. People think the mercury stops things that have nothing to do with the mercury.

A SDV doesn't have any of those issues. It still has some issues, but not several of the issues with transference that MDV does. A lot of these really have to do with the greater 'bus mentality.' Which brings me to ...

It wasn't until a corrupt British quack (with financial interest in both a proprietary MMR vaccine and a lawsuit against vaccine manufacturers) launched the modern antivax movement by issuing a fabricated, discredited and ultimately retracted study linking thimerosal to autism that anyone questioned its safety.

Correct, we're in 100% agreement.

But, like you said, those who irrationally fear adult-onset autism, there is the single-dose flu shot available at most clinics.

No, no, no, that's not what I said!

I said sloppy technicians f'up MDVs regularly. Their release of liability forms here in the US are a reason for that! Have you seen some of the lawsuits where those get pulled? And I don't just mean because of the Mercury allergy either.

Do you know how many times pro-vaxxers, even technicians, tell me that the mercury prevents any transference? And when I try to explain to them otherwise, they literally think I'm an anti-vaxxer?

Did I ever tell you about I had a major blood clot -- twice -- giving blood on a bus? The 2nd time I had to go get the RN on-staff, and she finally put the f'ing technician in their damn place!

The same f'ing morons giving flu MDVs on those busses are the same f'ing morons on blood bank busses.

Vaccines don't "weaken" the immune system, they trigger an immune response.
The body is capable of handling a viral load magnitudes greater than the pathogens that are present in vaccines, even as infants.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/109/1/124

Correct! But the immune system is in a weakened state.

What is one of the major side effects of the flu shot in the elderly? Tell me. And it's really a misnomer, because it's not a 'side effect,' but more of a result of the immune system being 'busy.'

That's why I advocate SDV flu shots and a good rest after. It not only keeps you from having other issues, but it maximizes the efficacy of the flu shot!

Now do you see what I'm saying, and not what these fools debating at a 3rd grade level are saying and assuming?! I think we agree!

I almost spit out my coffee when you said the body can't develop immunity from a dead pathogen as the very flu vaccine you talk about kicking back on a weekend in order to develop a sufficient immune response from is an inactivated (dead) virus. Other examples are polio and pertussis. Flumist was an attenuated (live) virus but was pulled because efficacy was found to be poor.

Dude, we're so in agreement here. I think your biggest mistake is not paying attention to the details of what I'm saying.

As you know, everything is about ...

risk v. reward -- the communicability + mortality (or risk of complications) + efficacy

There is also the reality that efficiacy doesn't just have to do with effectiveness, immediately, but long term.

Which is why flu shots change, and an update recommended, even if one's been vaccinated against the same strand of the flu before.

So ... agreed all around here, right?

Regarding the HPV vaccine (Gardasil in particular), next to the MMR, it is probably subject to the most antivax conspiracy ramblings. The following articles are extremely detailed refutations of all of it. HPV was not "rushed to market;" R&D was over 10 years and clinical trials over 4.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-gardasil-not-so-fast/
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/ske...op-science-myth-debunking-gardasil/#more-6254

But yet pro-vaxxers say every HPV shot on the market was safe, which gives the damn anti-vaxxers an immediate counter! That's my problem. The pro-vaxxers need to shut up because they are giving the anti-vaxxers ammo!

Because as you know, the cultures and substrates and other things are also a factor, especially the mediums and non-reactants (that end up being reactants in some people). That's the problem! There are lawsuits on this now, because of reality.

Yes, the HPV vaccine itself is looking really good. I 100% believe in the HPV vaccine, but it came around too late in my generation to have high efficacy. I strongly recommend it to all Gen-Y'ers.

But remember ... some implements that were rushed-to-market and freak'n distributed without consideration ended up being a major liability! There are lawsuits for a reason, and it's not just anti-vaxxers!

That's why the pro-vaxxers need to STFU because there really was a Big Pharma issue there. The CDC and FDA not being on the same page at one point only made it worse too.

Any other tired, nonscientific antivax talking points you want to throw out?

What anti-vaxxer argument? I'm arguing against pro-vaxxers on everything, the state deciding for everyone, without option, as much as anti-vaxxers.

Why did you paint me an anti-vaxxer? Don't you understand I agree with most of your points! The problem here is ... too many here don't. Have you seen what Shingles does to people, even those that have had the vaccine?

It would be one thing if VZL prevents me from not only not get getting the Chicken Pox, but after, Shingles. But it cannot. That's the why VZV and VZL is such a complex argument.

Because ... statistically ... I'm more likely to die or have major skin issues from Shingles, than Chicken Pox right now. Again, I'm one of those 'case studies' that are part of a new group, ones the UK NIH outlawed, but the AMA is very interested in.

So ... we actually agree on a lot here! Yes?

FWIW, it would probably go a long ways towards gaining credibility here if you didn't always validate your position by prefacing it with "as a libertarian". If you take a liberal or conservative position on something then dont claim that its the libertarian stance. Libertarianism is supposed to be more individual, but at times ypu come across as if your position is a widely accepted one in some mythical political group.

^^^ This is the problem. This attitude right here. You want me to choose, when in reality, I refuse to do so ... because it destroys objectivity.

Yes I agree with Liberals, and even Progressives at times.
Yes I agree with Conservatives, and even Religious Right at times.

But no, not 100%.

And taking each issue individually on their own merit is more effective than saying x, x, x, and x are all about civil liberty, and this is in that group. Guns have nothing to do with speech or abortion. Privacy has nothing to do with states rights or slavery.

But the attack on a woman's right to choose and the attack on a person's right to defend themselves are the exact same from a Constitutional reality.

Both are supported rights by a supermajority of Americans, and because of that, opponents of both use laws to attempt to make them illegal to exercise in most cases at all, bypassing Constitutional process to get the same effect.

Do you see that now? That's what Libertarians almost universally complain about. The left and right use the same strategy to bypass Constitutional process to destroy civil rights.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Holy shit. Tribbleorlfl not only beat down bull shit, but he completely broke him.

What a total and utter failure. I actually feel sorry for how stupid ucfbs is.

 

[UCFBS]

Holy shit. Tribbleorlfl not only beat down bull shit, but he completely broke him.
What a total and utter failure. I actually feel sorry for how stupid ucfbs is.

Go back to the 3rd grader playground and argue with the Conservatives. The big boys are talking here.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

Go back to the 3rd grader playground and argue with the Conservatives. The big boys are talking here.

I told you to gtfo you ignorant donkey. How is that coming along?

Ucfbs gets his ass beat and he blames tribble for not understanding him. Hahahahahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahshahah. You’re an idiot.

 

[btbones]

What 'beat down'?! I actually agree with @tribbleorlfl on most everything!

You guys debate on a 3rd grader level. That's why nothing gets solved. That's why I threw the censored f-bomb at all of you doing it too. You guys will argue with each other ... until I come in, and require deep understanding. So then you'll both stop your bickering to hate me.

At least @tribbleorlfl is deep, which I can respect. That's why I agree with most everything he said. Now, it's just on him to recognize what I actually said! Not what you 3rd graders think.

Now, let's go through his post ...

No, you're mis-reading what I'm saying, because your applying the anti-vaxxer template.

But that said, thank you for actually reading and taking the time to understand. I hope this response clears everything up ...

Then you're not understanding what some of these newer vaccines are, pushed by Big Pharma. Please research exactly what the VZL is.

I use the term 'inoculation' for a reason. In reality, things like VZL aren't really either a vaccine or inoculation, as people use them. I use the term 'innoculation' to purposely demonize Big Pharma, because things like VZL aren't exactly a vaccine that eradicates or prevents things.

You still get the live virus. You can get Shingles later in life as a result of the Chicken Pox vaccine. Those who haven't had it, and have not had the vaccine, cannot. That's why it's far more like an 'inoculation.'

People should think of VZL as kinda like "training your body." You need them regularly for them to work, especially later in life in the case of the Shingles. Same with the flu shot.

Can we agree on that, for starters?

Exactly! We 100% agree.

The thing here is ... among their half-truths, there is still a modicum of truth.

The FDA is in a serious 'fight' with Big Pharma over efficacy.
And why I don't believe for a second that vaccines are behind

Correct! Which brings me to ...

Or our bodies won't take it in via airbourne or touch communicable methods. Yes, that's where we 1% come from!

There is a theory that we literally have direct fluid exchange to get it. My brother had chicken pox, and I played with all the same toys he did, and 'roughhoused' like a pair of Irish Twins do.

Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!!! Thank you!!! Thank you!!!

I.e., if one more Pro-Vaxxer tells me I can get the Shingles -- the "worse form of Chicken Pox" -- because I've never had the Chicken Pox ... grrrr!!!

But how much more than the Shingles, including those who had the Chicken Pox as a kid, then the Shingles inoculation?!?!?!

That's where the statistics get interesting! Read on ...

Correct! And in the same regard, after much discussions of all my 'exposures' to it, and the fact that VZV isn't in my system, the doctors all agree ... I might be that outlier 1%.

Because the chance of me dying or having complications from Chicken Pox as an adult is lower than if I get the Shingles, even if I've had the Shingles innoculation.

If I don't have VZV in my system, I can never have that! And there's good evidence that there are many of us that cannot get it through common methods. I'd literally have to transfer the virus directly into my blood.

Now do you see what I'm actually saying?!

Now if I do ever get the Chicken Pox ... yes, I will start getting VZL inocuations on schedule. But not until then.

This is what my doctor and I have long discussed.

Correct, it's extremely effective. No argument!

But it does not prevent sloppy technicians from transferring germs in other ways. That's why I never get MDVs. People think the mercury stops things that have nothing to do with the mercury.

A SDV doesn't have any of those issues. It still has some issues, but not several of the issues with transference that MDV does. A lot of these really have to do with the greater 'bus mentality.' Which brings me to ...

Correct, we're in 100% agreement.

No, no, no, that's not what I said!

I said sloppy technicians f'up MDVs regularly. Their release of liability forms here in the US are a reason for that! Have you seen some of the lawsuits where those get pulled? And I don't just mean because of the Mercury allergy either.

Do you know how many times pro-vaxxers, even technicians, tell me that the mercury prevents any transference? And when I try to explain to them otherwise, they literally think I'm an anti-vaxxer?

Did I ever tell you about I had a major blood clot -- twice -- giving blood on a bus? The 2nd time I had to go get the RN on-staff, and she finally put the f'ing technician in their damn place!

The same f'ing morons giving flu MDVs on those busses are the same f'ing morons on blood bank busses.

Correct! But the immune system is in a weakened state.

What is one of the major side effects of the flu shot in the elderly? Tell me. And it's really a misnomer, because it's not a 'side effect,' but more of a result of the immune system being 'busy.'

That's why I advocate SDV flu shots and a good rest after. It not only keeps you from having other issues, but it maximizes the efficacy of the flu shot!

Now do you see what I'm saying, and not what these fools debating at a 3rd grade level are saying and assuming?! I think we agree!

Dude, we're so in agreement here. I think your biggest mistake is not paying attention to the details of what I'm saying.

As you know, everything is about ...

risk v. reward -- the communicability + mortality (or risk of complications) + efficacy

There is also the reality that efficiacy doesn't just have to do with effectiveness, immediately, but long term.

Which is why flu shots change, and an update recommended, even if one's been vaccinated against the same strand of the flu before.

So ... agreed all around here, right?

But yet pro-vaxxers say every HPV shot on the market was safe, which gives the damn anti-vaxxers an immediate counter! That's my problem. The pro-vaxxers need to shut up because they are giving the anti-vaxxers ammo!

Because as you know, the cultures and substrates and other things are also a factor, especially the mediums and non-reactants (that end up being reactants in some people). That's the problem! There are lawsuits on this now, because of reality.

Yes, the HPV vaccine itself is looking really good. I 100% believe in the HPV vaccine, but it came around too late in my generation to have high efficacy. I strongly recommend it to all Gen-Y'ers.

But remember ... some implements that were rushed-to-market and freak'n distributed without consideration ended up being a major liability! There are lawsuits for a reason, and it's not just anti-vaxxers!

That's why the pro-vaxxers need to STFU because there really was a Big Pharma issue there. The CDC and FDA not being on the same page at one point only made it worse too.

What anti-vaxxer argument? I'm arguing against pro-vaxxers on everything, the state deciding for everyone, without option, as much as anti-vaxxers.

Why did you paint me an anti-vaxxer? Don't you understand I agree with most of your points! The problem here is ... too many here don't. Have you seen what Shingles does to people, even those that have had the vaccine?

It would be one thing if VZL prevents me from not only not get getting the Chicken Pox, but after, Shingles. But it cannot. That's the why VZV and VZL is such a complex argument.

Because ... statistically ... I'm more likely to die or have major skin issues from Shingles, than Chicken Pox right now. Again, I'm one of those 'case studies' that are part of a new group, ones the UK NIH outlawed, but the AMA is very interested in.

So ... we actually agree on a lot here! Yes?


^^^ This is the problem. This attitude right here. You want me to choose, when in reality, I refuse to do so ... because it destroys objectivity.

Yes I agree with Liberals, and even Progressives at times.
Yes I agree with Conservatives, and even Religious Right at times.

But no, not 100%.

But the attack on a woman's right to choose and the attack on a person's right to defend themselves are the exact same from a Constitutional reality.

Both are supported rights by a supermajority of Americans, and because of that, opponents of both use laws to attempt to make them illegal to exercise in most cases at all, bypassing Constitutional process to get the same effect.

Do you see that now? That's what Libertarians almost universally complain about. The left and right use the same strategy to bypass Constitutional process to destroy civil rights.

I didn’t read a word of that shit and it still took 10 minutes to scroll through .

 

[NinjaKnight]

Goddamn this is amazing. What a fuking moron.

 

[UCFBS]

I told you to gtfo you ignorant donkey. How is that coming along?
Ucfbs gets his ass beat and he blames tribble for not understanding him. Hahahahahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahshahah. You’re an idiot.

I didn’t read a word of that shit and it still took 10 minutes to scroll through .

I'm glad you guys stopped fighting on the playground to make fun of the adult watching you outside the fence. Pathetic.

If you guys had even 1/10th the consideration to detail of @tribbleorlfl , who took the time to respond and go to the depth I desired, I'd respect you 10x more. But you don't.

 

[NinjaKnight]

I wish I had a better insult, but nothing I could come up with would ever top BS's own writing.

Holy shit you are a weird one.

 

[UCFKnight85]

What 'beat down'?! I actually agree with @tribbleorlfl on most everything!

You guys debate on a 3rd grader level. That's why nothing gets solved. That's why I threw the censored f-bomb at all of you doing it too. You guys will argue with each other ... until I come in, and require deep understanding. So then you'll both stop your bickering to hate me.

At least @tribbleorlfl is deep, which I can respect. That's why I agree with most everything he said. Now, it's just on him to recognize what I actually said! Not what you 3rd graders think.

Now, let's go through his post ...

No, you're mis-reading what I'm saying, because your applying the anti-vaxxer template.

But that said, thank you for actually reading and taking the time to understand. I hope this response clears everything up ...

Then you're not understanding what some of these newer vaccines are, pushed by Big Pharma. Please research exactly what the VZL is.

I use the term 'inoculation' for a reason. In reality, things like VZL aren't really either a vaccine or inoculation, as people use them. I use the term 'innoculation' to purposely demonize Big Pharma, because things like VZL aren't exactly a vaccine that eradicates or prevents things.

You still get the live virus. You can get Shingles later in life as a result of the Chicken Pox vaccine. Those who haven't had it, and have not had the vaccine, cannot. That's why it's far more like an 'inoculation.'

People should think of VZL as kinda like "training your body." You need them regularly for them to work, especially later in life in the case of the Shingles. Same with the flu shot.

Can we agree on that, for starters?

Exactly! We 100% agree.

The thing here is ... among their half-truths, there is still a modicum of truth.

The FDA is in a serious 'fight' with Big Pharma over efficacy.
And why I don't believe for a second that vaccines are behind

Correct! Which brings me to ...

Or our bodies won't take it in via airbourne or touch communicable methods. Yes, that's where we 1% come from!

There is a theory that we literally have direct fluid exchange to get it. My brother had chicken pox, and I played with all the same toys he did, and 'roughhoused' like a pair of Irish Twins do.

Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!!! Thank you!!! Thank you!!!

I.e., if one more Pro-Vaxxer tells me I can get the Shingles -- the "worse form of Chicken Pox" -- because I've never had the Chicken Pox ... grrrr!!!

But how much more than the Shingles, including those who had the Chicken Pox as a kid, then the Shingles inoculation?!?!?!

That's where the statistics get interesting! Read on ...

Correct! And in the same regard, after much discussions of all my 'exposures' to it, and the fact that VZV isn't in my system, the doctors all agree ... I might be that outlier 1%.

Because the chance of me dying or having complications from Chicken Pox as an adult is lower than if I get the Shingles, even if I've had the Shingles innoculation.

If I don't have VZV in my system, I can never have that! And there's good evidence that there are many of us that cannot get it through common methods. I'd literally have to transfer the virus directly into my blood.

Now do you see what I'm actually saying?!

Now if I do ever get the Chicken Pox ... yes, I will start getting VZL inocuations on schedule. But not until then.

This is what my doctor and I have long discussed.

Correct, it's extremely effective. No argument!

But it does not prevent sloppy technicians from transferring germs in other ways. That's why I never get MDVs. People think the mercury stops things that have nothing to do with the mercury.

A SDV doesn't have any of those issues. It still has some issues, but not several of the issues with transference that MDV does. A lot of these really have to do with the greater 'bus mentality.' Which brings me to ...

Correct, we're in 100% agreement.

No, no, no, that's not what I said!

I said sloppy technicians f'up MDVs regularly. Their release of liability forms here in the US are a reason for that! Have you seen some of the lawsuits where those get pulled? And I don't just mean because of the Mercury allergy either.

Do you know how many times pro-vaxxers, even technicians, tell me that the mercury prevents any transference? And when I try to explain to them otherwise, they literally think I'm an anti-vaxxer?

Did I ever tell you about I had a major blood clot -- twice -- giving blood on a bus? The 2nd time I had to go get the RN on-staff, and she finally put the f'ing technician in their damn place!

The same f'ing morons giving flu MDVs on those busses are the same f'ing morons on blood bank busses.

Correct! But the immune system is in a weakened state.

What is one of the major side effects of the flu shot in the elderly? Tell me. And it's really a misnomer, because it's not a 'side effect,' but more of a result of the immune system being 'busy.'

That's why I advocate SDV flu shots and a good rest after. It not only keeps you from having other issues, but it maximizes the efficacy of the flu shot!

Now do you see what I'm saying, and not what these fools debating at a 3rd grade level are saying and assuming?! I think we agree!

Dude, we're so in agreement here. I think your biggest mistake is not paying attention to the details of what I'm saying.

As you know, everything is about ...

risk v. reward -- the communicability + mortality (or risk of complications) + efficacy

There is also the reality that efficiacy doesn't just have to do with effectiveness, immediately, but long term.

Which is why flu shots change, and an update recommended, even if one's been vaccinated against the same strand of the flu before.

So ... agreed all around here, right?

But yet pro-vaxxers say every HPV shot on the market was safe, which gives the damn anti-vaxxers an immediate counter! That's my problem. The pro-vaxxers need to shut up because they are giving the anti-vaxxers ammo!

Because as you know, the cultures and substrates and other things are also a factor, especially the mediums and non-reactants (that end up being reactants in some people). That's the problem! There are lawsuits on this now, because of reality.

Yes, the HPV vaccine itself is looking really good. I 100% believe in the HPV vaccine, but it came around too late in my generation to have high efficacy. I strongly recommend it to all Gen-Y'ers.

But remember ... some implements that were rushed-to-market and freak'n distributed without consideration ended up being a major liability! There are lawsuits for a reason, and it's not just anti-vaxxers!

That's why the pro-vaxxers need to STFU because there really was a Big Pharma issue there. The CDC and FDA not being on the same page at one point only made it worse too.

What anti-vaxxer argument? I'm arguing against pro-vaxxers on everything, the state deciding for everyone, without option, as much as anti-vaxxers.

Why did you paint me an anti-vaxxer? Don't you understand I agree with most of your points! The problem here is ... too many here don't. Have you seen what Shingles does to people, even those that have had the vaccine?

It would be one thing if VZL prevents me from not only not get getting the Chicken Pox, but after, Shingles. But it cannot. That's the why VZV and VZL is such a complex argument.

Because ... statistically ... I'm more likely to die or have major skin issues from Shingles, than Chicken Pox right now. Again, I'm one of those 'case studies' that are part of a new group, ones the UK NIH outlawed, but the AMA is very interested in.

So ... we actually agree on a lot here! Yes?


^^^ This is the problem. This attitude right here. You want me to choose, when in reality, I refuse to do so ... because it destroys objectivity.

Yes I agree with Liberals, and even Progressives at times.
Yes I agree with Conservatives, and even Religious Right at times.

But no, not 100%.

But the attack on a woman's right to choose and the attack on a person's right to defend themselves are the exact same from a Constitutional reality.

Both are supported rights by a supermajority of Americans, and because of that, opponents of both use laws to attempt to make them illegal to exercise in most cases at all, bypassing Constitutional process to get the same effect.

Do you see that now? That's what Libertarians almost universally complain about. The left and right use the same strategy to bypass Constitutional process to destroy civil rights.

I literally just scrolled through this entire post but the typical go-to code words used in that last paragraph made me lulz

 

[UCFBS]

I literally just scrolled through this entire post but the typical go-to code words used in that last paragraph made me lulz

Just trying to make sure all our rights and civil liberties remain, even if you guys are trying to tear down one half, and the Progressives the other half.

Although I think both Conservatives and Progressives are now tired of the Neo-Progressives, who label even Progressives as 'Conservatives.'

 

[btbones]

and go to the depth I desired, I'd respect you 10

Ummmmm just no

 

[UCFKnight85]

Just trying to make sure all our rights and civil liberties remain, even if you guys are trying to tear down one half, and the Progressives the other half.

Although I think both Conservatives and Progressives are now tired of the Neo-Progressives, who label even Progressives as 'Conservatives.'

Then I can only say Thank God we have you standing on guard to assure that a non-Libertarian can’t over throw the Constitution