Frat boys gonna fratboy
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But rioting and calling every white cop/police that shots a black kid that attacks them before knowing any facts certainly isn't racist....
"Since you find the notion ludicrous, what are your expectations for atonement? What do I, personally, have to do as a white man?"
My expectations are quite simple. That people would actually be fully aware and knowledgeable about the legacy and long lasting consequences, both intended and unintended, of failed Reconstruction and the Jim Crow economy that followed for 100 years. Acceptance of the fact that those eras directly led to the problems we have now with poverty, education, crime and unemployment. This understanding and acceptance would hopefully put and end to the "it wasn't me, fix it yourself" hand washing that allows this shit to continue and bring the whole country down.
Atonement? WTF atonement has there been? Equal rights? Lip service in the form of affirmative action policies and bullshit social welfare programs? Even if those things were actually meaningful (which they aren't) they're fought against every step of the way and seen as being "unfair" while no meaningful alternatives are brought to the table. Instead poor disenfranchised people who have been stuck for generations are blamed for not figuring out how to self medicate while those blaming them are too ****ing stubborn or blind to acknowledge the root of the issue.
So to answer your question, the atonement I expect from people is waking the hell up and quit the simple minded bullshit.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
My expectations are quite simple. That people would actually be fully aware and knowledgeable about the legacy and long lasting consequences, both intended and unintended, of failed Reconstruction and the Jim Crow economy that followed for 100 years. Acceptance of the fact that those eras directly led to the problems we have now with poverty, education, crime and unemployment. This understanding and acceptance would hopefully put and end to the "it wasn't me, fix it yourself" hand washing that allows this shit to continue and bring the whole country down.
Atonement? WTF atonement has there been? Equal rights? Lip service in the form of affirmative action policies and bullshit social welfare programs? Even if those things were actually meaningful (which they aren't) they're fought against every step of the way and seen as being "unfair" while no meaningful alternatives are brought to the table. Instead poor disenfranchised people who have been stuck for generations are blamed for not figuring out how to self medicate while those blaming them are too ****ing stubborn or blind to acknowledge the root of the issue.
So to answer your question, the atonement I expect from people is waking the hell up and quit the simple minded bullshit.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Instead of you clowns taking 5 minutes to understand how blacks fled the south (for many reasons) post Civil War and migrated to densely populated urban centers with Jim Crow segregation which led to ghettoization and other long lasting problems, you decide to shake your head at Biggie and 2pac and wonder why the **** niggas are mad and distrusting of the police.
Do you have even the slightest clue what black residential centralization has done to decimate employment rates? There are studies that show elimination of residential centralization can reduce unemployment by almost 2/3 for the college educated. Sounds great and all right? That is until some crazy liberal brings up the idea of bringing low-income housing near you!
All you care about is the symptom but b/c you didn't personally own any ****ing slaves then there's nothing to see here.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Do you have even the slightest clue what black residential centralization has done to decimate employment rates? There are studies that show elimination of residential centralization can reduce unemployment by almost 2/3 for the college educated. Sounds great and all right? That is until some crazy liberal brings up the idea of bringing low-income housing near you!
All you care about is the symptom but b/c you didn't personally own any ****ing slaves then there's nothing to see here.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Black people are mad b/c nothing meaningful has been done and we see the lasting impact. White people are mad b/c they didn't personally own a slave and think it's excuse making.
The fix is everyone actually wanting to fix a problem even if it doesn't affect them and realizing the country is better off for it. But inevitably it devolves in to political fighting and the cycle continues. There is a hard line in this country and you're on the left or the right. Anything that remotely touches the problem will involve some form or fashion of social and economic "welfare" and we know that instantly 50% of the country is against that. The next option is organic grassroots change from within which will HAVE TO involve people currently unaffected. Good luck with that!
**** it, let's just ignore it and go worry about the middle east or something.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
The fix is everyone actually wanting to fix a problem even if it doesn't affect them and realizing the country is better off for it. But inevitably it devolves in to political fighting and the cycle continues. There is a hard line in this country and you're on the left or the right. Anything that remotely touches the problem will involve some form or fashion of social and economic "welfare" and we know that instantly 50% of the country is against that. The next option is organic grassroots change from within which will HAVE TO involve people currently unaffected. Good luck with that!
**** it, let's just ignore it and go worry about the middle east or something.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Since I am in the Affordable Housing business I can speak to this. The basically eliminated any new Project-Based Section 8 subsidized properties from being built in the late 80's and went to the model of Housing Choice Vouchers which gives the tenant the ability to take that anywhere that will accept it (market rate apartment complex, single family housing, etc). These are for Tenants making 30% of Area Medium Income or less. Ex: Tenant makes $1,000 per month, they would pay 30% of their income or $300. If the apartment rent was $600, the government cuts a check to the owner for the additional $300.
The reason for this was to eliminate the Ghetto or the "projects" and spread low income tenants around and give them a choice where they want to live.
They also created the Low Income Housing Tax Credit program which builds properties for tenants at 60% of Area Medium Income which creates a rent cap but there is no subsidy so these are actually tenants working in the community in low paying jobs. These are the properties that the NIMBY's get up in arms over which is just stupid because these are the people working in your area at the restaurants, coffee shops, stores, and schools. The properties are also usually very nice with good amenities and you have no idea it is rent restricted until you ask for an application. It comes down to people not being informed and this includes most politicians, etc.
Not to flatter, but you're good at this stuff, Chris.
I understand what you are saying but still have some reconciliation that's got to happen in my skull.
You're saying that a lot of the legislation and policies that have been put in place (affirmative action, equal employment opportunity, social welfare,...) have potentially and unintentionally done more harm than good in the long-term relative to the socio-economic advancement of black folks. To say this in a different way, black folks born in the USA are at an inherent disadvantage as compared to poor, newly arrived immigrants because the immigrant has not been "indoctrinated" into prevailing stereotypes and bigotries and therefore haven't "learned" that they cannot be successful and to simply accept their plight.
I understand what you are saying but still have some reconciliation that's got to happen in my skull.
You're saying that a lot of the legislation and policies that have been put in place (affirmative action, equal employment opportunity, social welfare,...) have potentially and unintentionally done more harm than good in the long-term relative to the socio-economic advancement of black folks. To say this in a different way, black folks born in the USA are at an inherent disadvantage as compared to poor, newly arrived immigrants because the immigrant has not been "indoctrinated" into prevailing stereotypes and bigotries and therefore haven't "learned" that they cannot be successful and to simply accept their plight.
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"You're saying that a lot of the legislation and policies that have been put in place (affirmative action, equal employment opportunity, social welfare,...) have potentially and unintentionally done more harm than good in the long-term relative to the socio-economic advancement of black folks. To say this in a different way, black folks born in the USA are at an inherent disadvantage as compared to poor, newly arrived immigrants because the immigrant has not been "indoctrinated" into prevailing stereotypes and bigotries and therefore haven't "learned" that they cannot be successful and to simply accept their plight."
What I think I'm trying to say is that those programs are nothing but band-aids and were designed to at least help policymakers sleep better at night to cope with whatever "white guilt" they had. People can point and say hey we did something and then blame the people for not trying when it doesn't work when. At the end of the day it's nothing more than the fish vs. teaching to fish scenario.
It all comes down to a couple of things:
1. You can't expect the sick to heal themselves, it's illogical. And if you think the solution is just successful black people helping "their own" then you're proving the point that it IS about race and the rhetoric about racism being over is bs.
2. If you accept that intervention must take place then the next question is in what form. The logical conclusion is real investment that is self-sustaining.
3. If you're on board up to this point then it's time to implement actual strategies that help everyone.
The only way to get to 3 is to start with 1 right? And you're only gonna accept 1 if you have an understanding of wtf the problems are and WHY they exist. If there's a solid grasp on that then there naturally comes forth more empathy and a desire to improve the situation.
I mean what was the big argument with Iraq and Afghanistan? We can't just leave before the job is done b/c of the mess and long term problems it creates. It's cheaper and everyone is better off by doing it right the first time.
Why the hell would post Civil War America be any different? Not only did we "pull out" but there literally was another 100 freaking years of LAWS exacerbating the disaster. For some reason the discussion always ends at slavery.
It's just beyond frustrating to me b/c it's not about handouts or anyone today being evil. To me it literally is as simple as just understanding how and why we got here, wanting to address it, and being confused as to why we choose to ignore it.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
This post was edited on 3/11 12:48 PM by ChrisKnight06
What I think I'm trying to say is that those programs are nothing but band-aids and were designed to at least help policymakers sleep better at night to cope with whatever "white guilt" they had. People can point and say hey we did something and then blame the people for not trying when it doesn't work when. At the end of the day it's nothing more than the fish vs. teaching to fish scenario.
It all comes down to a couple of things:
1. You can't expect the sick to heal themselves, it's illogical. And if you think the solution is just successful black people helping "their own" then you're proving the point that it IS about race and the rhetoric about racism being over is bs.
2. If you accept that intervention must take place then the next question is in what form. The logical conclusion is real investment that is self-sustaining.
3. If you're on board up to this point then it's time to implement actual strategies that help everyone.
The only way to get to 3 is to start with 1 right? And you're only gonna accept 1 if you have an understanding of wtf the problems are and WHY they exist. If there's a solid grasp on that then there naturally comes forth more empathy and a desire to improve the situation.
I mean what was the big argument with Iraq and Afghanistan? We can't just leave before the job is done b/c of the mess and long term problems it creates. It's cheaper and everyone is better off by doing it right the first time.
Why the hell would post Civil War America be any different? Not only did we "pull out" but there literally was another 100 freaking years of LAWS exacerbating the disaster. For some reason the discussion always ends at slavery.
It's just beyond frustrating to me b/c it's not about handouts or anyone today being evil. To me it literally is as simple as just understanding how and why we got here, wanting to address it, and being confused as to why we choose to ignore it.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
This post was edited on 3/11 12:48 PM by ChrisKnight06
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Right on Chris, great posts.
If every person that complained about social welfare got out and spent 12 hours a month mentoring a youth that is stuck in the cycle of poverty (that started as you mentioned), we'd see pretty significant changes over the next couple generations.
Of course it's much easier to sit back and complain.
If every person that complained about social welfare got out and spent 12 hours a month mentoring a youth that is stuck in the cycle of poverty (that started as you mentioned), we'd see pretty significant changes over the next couple generations.
Of course it's much easier to sit back and complain.
I treat people the way I want myself and my family to be treated and that's about what I can do . There are still plenty of race problems on this country and probably always will be . The people on both sides of this who sensationalize every event will make sure of it . The idiots in ferguson who rioted don't make all blacks criminals anymore than a racist white cop roughing up a black teen because of his color means all white folk are racist . Truth is I understand what Chris is saying . I do what I can and that's about all I can do
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
"WELFARE" is something I always scream. There is never a real solution from either side, they just throw more money at it. If the government is already paying 47% of the population why not give them something to do and train them to become productive members of the country. I'm always against more welfare because it never works and hasn't worked. It provides no incentive to get off the government tit.
It goes both ways. You never see outrage from the black community when a black person kills a white person, or another black person. When you talk about crime rates it's always the police are racist, blah blah blah...never we need solutions to reduce crime rates. The only time you hear anything is a polarizing situation like Ferguson where there really are a lot of unknown facts. Now it's time to protest baby, burn it down we have been wronged! No outcry when two black guys killed a black 5 year old in Ft. Myers in November. No outcry when 4 black guys killed two older white ladies in Polk County a few months ago in a home invasion. No outcry that the grade level reading proficiency for blacks in Florida is 38%. Years went by and not a peep until the black community found out that the goal wasn't the same as the other students who were at a substantially higher level and then pull out that big race card and wave it around.
But it's much easier to sit around and worry about things that happened in the past and blame everyone else than actually have 1 ounce of accountability.
False.
Just because those voices talking about the bolded aren't the loudest on social or television media, don't think those things aren't talked about in the black community, and even trying to fix it ( a community effort in my hometown is working to help mentor young folks now, created when we would go back home and notice how much worse the condition of the neighborhood and school system were ).
It's like saying all rap music is misogynistic and glorifies crime. It just isn't typically the type of hip hop that sells the most units.
You black people should really issue joint statements on every single incident that occurs involving a black person.
We expect nothing less than all 3M black people residing in Florida to speak out in parallel on every single matter*
We expect nothing less than all 3M black people residing in Florida to speak out in parallel on every single matter*
okay so what are the problems and how do you address them?
I honestly think that President Obama had the oportunity to do somthing no other president has had the opportunity to do. He had the chance to reach out to blacks and say you can do anything you want to, but he let politics stop him. He was more afraid of what the news would say or what other democrats would say (some would probably say he was hurting the party if he focused on social issues). I know the $#1t storm that would go on in this forum if he did but that could have been his biggest and most important contribution and he does nothing
He would go into it a little and then stop (with the if I had a son he could have looked like treyvon comment) because of the news. He would sugar coat his opinions on things rather than say flat out what he felt. And maybe if he didnt you would have that talk. In the end the most powerful (non billionaire) man in the world ignored problems he was more qualified to address than anyone else in his position before him.
(this is obviously coming from my position of white privilege so blast it if you want to)
This post was edited on 3/11 1:53 PM by Dmarino110
You are welcome to point out where I am wrong but you would rather sit back and ignore the facts.
I'm sure that's true. But if Sharpton and Jackson are going to blow up every situation they feel black people have been wronged then they should be willing to bring these other issues into the forefront. Life changes drastically when you worry about yourself instead of what everyone else is doing.
What you're discussing has nothing to do with what was being discussed. The topic evolved into cause of the current situation and not superficial discussions of symptoms. A lot of the current symptoms are simply a manifestation of government action and long-term reaction that's turned into a giant vicious cycle that will take generations to undo. Chris is simply pointing out that it can't be undone without a thoughtful understanding of the root cause of the problem.
My boss and I were talking about this a few weeks back. Referring to Lupe Fiasco's criticism of 44 along the lines of what you said, he retorted, "He's one guy. Everything ain't gonna change overnight."
I hate to break it to you, but politicians, especially national politicians who have to appeal to a broad base, don't say what they really think about things frequently. Politicians, by definition, "let politics stop them." "Change and hope" and "Post racial politics" are no different than "no new taxes." Advertising slogans for campaigns. Nothing more, nothing less.
He did challenge more black men to be fathers early in his first term ( and he's correct ). Otherwise, there isn't much more he can do other than being an example for kids looking for positive role models. He's kinda busy running the free world, with it's budget issues and foreign policy. Carter, Bush 41, and Clinton have had active post presidential lives in policy, maybe 44 will, too, in matters of the black community.
This is the truth. If we all decide together to recognize facts then our behaviors as a society would change almost overnight.
And here comes my favorite part of any debate involving matters of the black community with folks not from that community. Sharpton and Jackson.
Let me break it down, again, on these two.
No black folks under the age of 55 care what they say. They do not matter. We don't listen to them, and don't solicit their services. Do not refer to them, ever. Their efforts and influence waned when the calender moved into the 1990s.
Do not pay any attention to them, do not bring them into any discussion about black folks. They mean nothing now. The moment everyone not black understands that, that will be the moment they stop getting interviewed all the time on news shows, they will disappear, and you won't have to worry about what they say.
This post was edited on 3/11 2:16 PM by brahmanknight
Most educated people recognize the facts though and realize there is nothing they can do about it. It's been a problem for so long and the people in Washington have zero incentive to fix it. They keep giving out the easy money so they keep getting the votes.
Don't come back into this thread until you can actually back up your allegations, your ignorance is a major part of this problem.
No, what the black community says is we don't care who we kill but a white cop better not kill a black kid no matter what the facts are or you will hear it from us. Is that what they mean? I don't know, but that is how it is perceived. If a black person kills an unarmed black person isn't that the same injustice? So why are there riots when it's a white on black crime but any other way no one cares? If you want all people to be treated equal shouldn't you be reciprocal?
The accountability I am talking about is as a whole community not specifically individuals. I guess you can looks specifically at the "leadership" that just points fingers instead of acknowledging problems and providing solutions.
absolutely, everything is not going to change over night. My issue would be he could do more, he could talk about where he came from, and what he did to get where he is. How did he get to harvard? What kind of sacrifices did he have to make to get there? That kind of thing. As you said be a role model. He smoked weed, he did a little blow, but he decided he wanted to do something and he did it.
Holy shit thank you. I honestly don''t even know where to begin. It's like we're not even on the same book let alone the same page. The part that pisses me off is that I think it's a fairly prevalent point of view from people who are uncomfortable with the current situation. I mean really, wtf does anything said have to do with what I was saying?
Your last sentence absolutely nails it. If you have no understanding of the history of ghettoization, and institutionalized racism in the legal system then you look at angry people in Ferguson with absolutely no context. OBVIOUSLY on the individual level there is personal responsibility that comes in to play and it's not right to loot and riot. Individually those people should be dealt with. That surface level shit that we all understand. Go deeper! Now once you get past that you ask yourself wtf has happened to a community of people that led to such a pathology of distrust and anger? B/c if you wanna be a simpleton and ignore it then it's an open wound that will continue to fester and burst open again and again with each incident that follows.
Below is from a NYT article on Ferguson. IT DOESN'T EXCUSE INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOR. But it at least helps to paint a picture of an environment that would allow tensions to build over time and get to the point where incidents like Michael Brown, while very unfortunate, are not at all surprising. So while every rioter should face punishment, when that is over maybe we can figure out how to work with local government so that the community has a more equitable partnership with policymakers and law enforcement. Again.... the root is real. Meaningful solutions targeted there prevent future Sanfords and Fergusons.
The
F.B.I. may be able to answer the many questions surrounding the death
of Michael Brown, an 18-year-old black student from Ferguson, Mo., who
was a few days from heading off to college when he was shot by a police
officer on Saturday. The shooting of Mr. Brown, who was unarmed, led to
three days of protest, some of it violent, and several tense
confrontations between residents of the St. Louis suburban town of
21,000 and the police.
But
it doesn't take a federal investigation to understand the history of
racial segregation, economic inequality and overbearing law enforcement
that produced so much of the tension now evident on the streets. St.
Louis has long been one of the nation's most segregated metropolitan areas,
and there remains a high wall between black residents - who
overwhelmingly have lower incomes - and the white power structure that
dominates City Councils and police departments like the ones in
Ferguson.
Until
the late 1940s, blacks weren't allowed to live in most suburban St.
Louis County towns, kept out by restrictive covenants that the Supreme
Court prohibited in 1948. As whites began to flee the city for the
county in the 1950s and '60s, they used exclusionary zoning tactics -
including large, single-family lot requirements that prohibited
apartment buildings - to prevent blacks from moving in. Within the city,
poverty and unrest grew.
By
the 1970s, many blacks started leaving the City of St. Louis as well.
Colin Gordon, a professor at the University of Iowa who has carefully mapped the metropolitan area's residential history,
said black families were attracted to older, inner-ring suburbs like
Ferguson in the northern part of the county because they were built
before restrictive zoning tactics and, therefore, allowed apartments.
As black families moved into Ferguson, the whites fled.
In 1980, the town was 85 percent white and 14 percent black; by 2010,
it was 29 percent white and 69 percent black. But blacks did not gain
political power as their numbers grew. The mayor and the police chief are white,
as are five of the six City Council members. The school board consists
of six white members and one Hispanic. As Mr. Gordon explains, many
black residents, lacking the wealth to buy property, move from apartment
to apartment and have not put down political roots.
The
disparity is most evident in the Ferguson Police Department, of which
only three of 53 officers are black. The largely white force stops black
residents far out of proportion to their population, according to statistics kept by the state attorney general.
Blacks account for 86 percent of the traffic stops in the city, and 93
percent of the arrests after those stops. Similar problems exist around
St. Louis County, where earlier this year the state chapter of the
N.A.A.C.P. filed a federal civil rights complaint alleging widespread racial profiling by police departments.
The circumstances of Mr. Brown's death are, inevitably, in dispute.
Witnesses said he was walking home from a convenience store when
stopped by an officer for walking in the middle of the street, and they
accused the officer of shooting him multiple times when his hands were
raised over his head. The police said Mr. Brown had hit the officer.
State and federal investigators are trying to sort out the truth.
What
is not in dispute is the sense of permanent grievance held by many
residents and shared in segregated urban areas around the country.
Though nothing excuses violence and looting, it is clear that local
governments have not dispensed justice equally. The death of Mr. Brown
is "heartbreaking," as President Obama said Tuesday, but it is also a reminder of a toxic racial legacy that still infects cities and suburbs across America.
