Getting Serious about Curbing Gun Violence
- Thread starter DaShuckster
- Start date
Well mass shootings have increased since 2004 when the assault weapon ban expired, that is simply a fact. Is that the reason? I don't know but it certainly doesn't help. Beyond that it is hard to say, but we know that countries with less access to guns, don't have this issue anywhere near to the degree we do. It is certainly obvious access to guns is what allows this to happen so often.
I think either side of the argument is being naïve if they think it's "all about easy access to guns" or it's "all about Hollywood's glorification of gun violence" or "it's all about the NRA" or "it's all about the Second Amendment" or "It's all about banning semi-automatic weapons"....and on and on and on.
The reality is it's ALL OF IT. You look at today's American Gun Culture with:
- Top selling video games like Fortnite featuring mass murdering;
- Top grossing movies featuring gun violence;
- Top rated TV shows featuring gun violence
- The easy availability of guns in our country, including semi-automatic weapons
- The NRA hiding behind the Second Amendment to ward off ANY reasonable gun legislation
- No universal background checks
- Horrendous Mass Murdering Sprees -- including one where the victims were little grade school kids -- being addressed with nothing more than "thoughts and prayers" and
- Lame restrictions to prevent mentally unstable people from purchasing guns
But the solution explains why we've done nothing. Our Gun Culture is so engrained in us that we lack the will.
U
You mean the assault weapon ban that had no measurable affect on gun related homicides?
You mean the assault weapon ban that had no measurable affect on gun related homicides?
No, and I agree with pretty much the rest of the post, but we already have background checks to the point that is reasonably enforcable.
That ban did absolutely nothing. The rifles were still manufactured without a few features (bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, retractable stocks, magazine capacity, etc.) Previous versions were grandfathered in, as well as magazines over 10 rounds.
Our society seems to be getting crazier, different databases don't communicate, and like what was mentioned--the POS in Dayton even had a hit-list that he created in high school.
Last edited:
The funding for database integration and people at all of the agencies isn’t really there. Local politicians spend money on fire trucks and splash pads and national politicians allocate money to research for the most obscure and irrelevant things, but money for law enforcement gets cut. Especially when there is a public sentiment against police, as there is now. It’s going to take a pretty big set of programs to deal with the intel side of this equation.
If people want to have the gun access discussion thats fine, have at it and make some changes. Confiscation is a nonstarter but maybe access slows it down and hides the actual problems enough that it's more palatable to the masses. At the end of the day none of that will do anything about some of the ills that I personally feel plague us. I'm much more interested in the philosophical question around culture and society.
My high level view of it is a sort of crisis of consciousness or understanding on a level that feels so real but I can't even begin to articulate. It just feels so many people are looking for a different way to live, for a change but we don't know what we want. All that clichéd shit about being more connected than ever yet more alone etc. We have soo much information ab the physical world yet are as confused as ever in matters of value, purpose and a life of fulfillment. Throw in a feeling of hopelessness when it comes to the current state of all these interconnected conflicts, leaders who are just completely out of touch and people are just freaking the fukc out.
Suicide, depression, anxiety rapidly increasing amongst young people right? I mean we can ridicule Millennials and subsequent generations and call them snowflakes or maybe just maybe recognize we might need to start looking at the whole damn construct. What are the things we value? Reward? Praise? Glorify? People aren't happy .... they aren't fulfilled! What actually matters?
We're at real crossroads as a species. Shit is happening incredibly fast on the technological front and I think it's very fair to ask where this is headed if we're able to keep up?
This doesn't even need to be a spiritual/religious discussion although I think it's hard to tackle these questions without dipping your toe in that ocean. I think most of us in our heart know these are the types of things we need to be thinking about but don't even know how to begin. I can go down this road forever but I'll stop and go smoke a blunt.
So cool, let's start with tightening access if that's what the people want bc I don't want to be considered someone who doesn't want to do anything to slow down the bleeding. I'm much more interested in the deeper messy convos though.
You can’t change society, culture, or people. That’s a variable that cannot be eliminated
Eliminate all guns or at least ones that can kill a lot of people very quickly
If you don’t, nothing will work
Since that isn’t likely, nothing will get better
Who is running the country won’t make a damn bit of difference as far which party wins the presidency and their beliefs
Eliminate all guns or at least ones that can kill a lot of people very quickly
If you don’t, nothing will work
Since that isn’t likely, nothing will get better
Who is running the country won’t make a damn bit of difference as far which party wins the presidency and their beliefs
Honest question, do all countries use the same criteria as the US when labeling an attack as a mass shooting or as gun violence? Is there a universal standard definition for what constitutes a mass shooting? How about a threshold number of causalities in a shooting, or the circumstances leading to the shooting? Is all that standardized?
If, for example, we're the only country that considers suicides as gun violence, or if other countries happen to exclude circumstances such as gang-on-gang shootings from their reporting while we don't, then that data is shit.
The deeper messy convo is the one that has to happen though and sadly it won’t happen becuase it would require admitting that our morals, spirituality, condition as humans, and priorities as a people are utterly fuked.
A simple good first step would be getting people to simply reengage with one another and stop getting sucked into social media for hours on end with their face down in their phone to consume hate and fake outrage that doesn’t really involve them.
There are studies now being produced that show that we have a growing generation of young adults addicted to social media and of that group, they have a decreased empathy for people in their community, they don’t recognize their local community often, and they are more likely to be emotionally driven by national issues with online agreement of opinion rather than being emotionally driven by what’s going on with their neighbor(s)
This isn't a gun problem. This isn't a video game or movie problem. It's much, much deeper than that.
the people that want to ban guns are just trying to make themselves feel better because they "did something". Most of them have to realize that it won't stop mass shootings. How could it? At best, maybe instead of killing 30 people, a kid can kill 25 people and the "anti-gun" folk will say they saved 5 lives.
There have always been mass shooters. It's just that the mass shootings are more deadly and more public than ever before. Why is that? In order to solve the problem, you have to look at the last 20, 30, 40 years and say "what changed?". Did access to guns change in that time? Well, yes. It's actually harder to get them now than before. So that aint it.
It's a combination of a BUNCH of things ... with each one not being THE reason but a contributing factor. All of these things listed below have actually changed for the worse in the last 20,30, 40 years.
1. Untreated/mistreated mental illness
2. Breakdown of the family unit
3. Children out of wedlock
4. Divorce rate rapidly increasing
5. Young children on mood altering medicines (ritalin, ADHD stuff etc.)
6. Increase in violent video games
7. Increase in violent movies
8. Declining importance in religion
9. Increase in recreational drug use
All of those things, and more I haven't listed, have contributed to the breakdown in society. It is creating these 21 year old severly mental kids that are shooting up the batman movie, Parkland, Garlic festival, dayton, etc. Does any one of them alone create a mass shooter? Nope. Will fixing just one of those above eliminate mass shooters? Nope.
But one thing for sure, banning any sort of guns or even making it slightly more difficult to get them isn't going to solve ANYTHING. As usual, it's not a gun issue. Its a mental health issue. A kid that can't get an AR15 is not going to be cured of his mental illness that makes him want to kill massive amounts of people and then himself.
the people that want to ban guns are just trying to make themselves feel better because they "did something". Most of them have to realize that it won't stop mass shootings. How could it? At best, maybe instead of killing 30 people, a kid can kill 25 people and the "anti-gun" folk will say they saved 5 lives.
There have always been mass shooters. It's just that the mass shootings are more deadly and more public than ever before. Why is that? In order to solve the problem, you have to look at the last 20, 30, 40 years and say "what changed?". Did access to guns change in that time? Well, yes. It's actually harder to get them now than before. So that aint it.
It's a combination of a BUNCH of things ... with each one not being THE reason but a contributing factor. All of these things listed below have actually changed for the worse in the last 20,30, 40 years.
1. Untreated/mistreated mental illness
2. Breakdown of the family unit
3. Children out of wedlock
4. Divorce rate rapidly increasing
5. Young children on mood altering medicines (ritalin, ADHD stuff etc.)
6. Increase in violent video games
7. Increase in violent movies
8. Declining importance in religion
9. Increase in recreational drug use
All of those things, and more I haven't listed, have contributed to the breakdown in society. It is creating these 21 year old severly mental kids that are shooting up the batman movie, Parkland, Garlic festival, dayton, etc. Does any one of them alone create a mass shooter? Nope. Will fixing just one of those above eliminate mass shooters? Nope.
But one thing for sure, banning any sort of guns or even making it slightly more difficult to get them isn't going to solve ANYTHING. As usual, it's not a gun issue. Its a mental health issue. A kid that can't get an AR15 is not going to be cured of his mental illness that makes him want to kill massive amounts of people and then himself.
Completely agree. Good post.
Bullying in schools doesn’t help either
However, you’re basically saying that there’s no hope to solving this problem
Guns are the only variable that can be improved since the others are likely going to get worse.
Your first premise is wrong. The culture and society have been changing rather remarkably over the last 100 years. Even over the last 10 and I would even say that it’s rather fluid. It’s a dangerous statement to say that people can’t change or be responsible so we need to enact rules to force behavior. You’re making a conscious choice to prefer government power over individual responsibility.
Yea I wanted to respond to that but it was super late. It's a terrible philosophy. Society is a reflection of the individual. The only answer is to ask questions about how to best nurture thriving individuals. It's incredibly daunting and maybe that was his point, no one thing is going to change that overnight but it's the only way.
I also keep seeing this push now to stop saying these shooters are mentally ill bc it stigmatizes mental illness. Where is this push coming from? These are deranged individuals whether they appear coherent or not. Someone of sound mind and soul does not do this. Is this not exactly what mental illness is? What is then the argument .. That they're simply "evil" individuals? OK then please scientifically define evil for me...
i dont really believe that guns in movies/tv/video games really causes the problem, but they do desensitize us. i do believe that is at least a part of the problem.
however, as a parent, i think i would like to see the tv and movie ratings adjusted a bit. whether its pg, pg13, nc17, or r ratings they all need to have less violence/gore. i would like to see video games also sold with the type of rating system as well. this is a small step i think could help the overall picture.
one thing i will agree with is the background check system isnt perfect. the ohio kid was able to buy a gun legally and wasnt stopped. he had massive red flags. those should have been put into the system. we need to look at alot of these past occurences and see where we can make the system better.
i would also love to see an app or website interface made public. if i want to sell my gun to someone, i would like the ability to scan/take a picture of their drivers license and do an instant check. why that isnt available is beyond me.
however, as a parent, i think i would like to see the tv and movie ratings adjusted a bit. whether its pg, pg13, nc17, or r ratings they all need to have less violence/gore. i would like to see video games also sold with the type of rating system as well. this is a small step i think could help the overall picture.
one thing i will agree with is the background check system isnt perfect. the ohio kid was able to buy a gun legally and wasnt stopped. he had massive red flags. those should have been put into the system. we need to look at alot of these past occurences and see where we can make the system better.
i would also love to see an app or website interface made public. if i want to sell my gun to someone, i would like the ability to scan/take a picture of their drivers license and do an instant check. why that isnt available is beyond me.
Totally agree with this statement!
How naive! Yeah, it’s all about individual responsibility! Societies don’t need to influence acceptable behaviors through a series of laws and law enforcement. We don’t need to use tax incentives and such stuff. No cow towing to “government power”, right?
I can't define evil since it is so abstract and also deals with matters of faith, but I absolutely believe it exists. For example, I don't believe someone like Hitler could lead the mass extermination of an entire people simply because he was "mentally ill" or "filled with hate". At some point even the mentally ill or hateful would have a moment where they realize that this is too horrific to continue. Something much greater has to be at work.
Same with men who have led genocides.
The thing that irks me the most about this issue is the “we just can’t do anything about it” attitude. We absolutely have the intelligence and the means to try. Trying to make things better is what we’re all about. We are constantly trying to make automobiles safer. We’re always trying to cure diseases. We’re always trying to develop drugs to help people live longer and more productive lives.
But when it comes to mass murders, there’s nothing we can do? There’s nothing we can even try?
America acts like an addict who knows in his heart he needs to quit but lacks the willpower to even try.
But when it comes to mass murders, there’s nothing we can do? There’s nothing we can even try?
America acts like an addict who knows in his heart he needs to quit but lacks the willpower to even try.
The El Paso shooter made it pretty clear he was targeting people out of hate. If there is evidence he was mentally ill then we can discuss that, but at this point the evidence points to him doing this for political reasons and his hatred of Hispanics.
there are things that we could do and it seems like after these shootings there is always a call to better the current background check system.
so a senator/house rep creates a decent bill to help fix the current system. the problem then because others get involved and try to add extra stuff on and the bills become bloated and then the original people no longer support it. thus it never really changes.
We have tried. A lot has been done and passed at both the State and Federal levels to try and make this less likely to occur.
The problem is that to a lot of people, it's not "trying" unless someone is outright pushing for total bans or confiscation.
What is hatred if not psychological unwellness?
Mental health refers to our cognitive, behavioral, and emotional wellbeing. As far as I'm concerned hatred 100% falls under the mental health umbrella.
I saw this in a Psychology Today article from last year: Having ”mental health issues” like getting in fights at school, beating your spouse, or being a loner who spends too much time on Internet hate sites is different from having a mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
So ok fine. If someone wants to distinguish between mental health/illness/disorder then fine but I think the point remains. The big picture idea is to create an environment that minimizes mental health related issues for as many individuals as possible.
My problem with not wanting to look at these instances through the lense of mental health is that it creates for some people this idea that "some people did something" and if it weren't for easy gun access these people would be leading fulfilled and productive lives and benefiting society.
I don't need a medically diagnosed disorder that can be treated with a pill to know something was broken in the head. I'd prefer to discuss it now.
This logic almost implies that humans are incapable of doing bad things, unless they are mentally ill. I simply don't believe that. Was everyone who did Hitler's bidding mentally ill? Was everyone who owned slaves mentally ill? What about the people who did bad things in medieval times, or biblical times, etc etc mentally ill?
This guy told us why he did what he did, it was racism. Trying to brush that aside and looking for other reasons, especially when at this point we have seen no other reasons, is almost trying to act like racism doesn't exist, which we know it does.
Consider how that background check system would actually work. It would include things like:
If my dad loaned me a shotgun to go pheasant hunting, he would have to do a background check on me, and when I returned the gun to him I would have to do a background check on him.
If I want to buy my son a .22 for his 14th birthday, I would have to do a background check on him.
Would any of this affect a person who's gun is stolen from them, or the criminal who doesn't care about filing paperwork with the govt on the sale of a gun that knows it will be used for a crime? Short of having a gun registry system, which would be dangerous and unconstitutional, there is no enforcement mechanism possible for expanding background checks. And furthermore, it would make more transfers "legal" but making it legal doesn't make the transfer any safer.
You don't have to be mentally ill to be a racist sack of shit. And that's not what he was saying.
However there's a huge step in between being a racist in your private life, and being a racist to the point that you decide to effectively end your life and surrender your freedom in order to go kill as many people as possible. Maybe this jackass has a toxic mix or racism and mental illness? What if he had a sick obsession with mass murder for years and racism simply became his "justification" to finally act on it?
That's what Chris is getting at.
This isn't difficult. Hatred, racism etc are bad. We choose these things. They're a sign of unwell thinking. Same thing as being physically unhealthy from choosing to digest junk food. Yes you can have a genetic disorder that leads to obesity but often it's your own terrible choices and complexes. It's why simply stapling a stomach doesn't often work. The mind is no different.
You want to stamp out racism how do you do it? You don't make racism illegal ... You attack the psychology of it and help people not go down that path.
People don't start off wanting to choose misery hate, loneliness yet here we are. People have got to get to root causes.
Not one thing I'm saying excuses behavior. I'm trying to talk about faulty thinking that leads down the path to bad behavior.
There are clearly models out there of states of mind that are more productive and beneficial than others.
Are all the forms of hatred and bigotry (racism, sexism) not some perverted and exaggerated form of self preservation from a perceived external threat?
What happens in an individual to take it from simple observation of differences between individuals to mass murder? A fuked mind. Let's talk about that process
What happens in an individual to take it from simple observation of differences between individuals to mass murder? A fuked mind. Let's talk about that process
But it has happened throughout history. Racism and violence are not new phenomena. The guy told us why he did what he did, and I think we should believe him.
Then talk about it. He told us why he did it, but obviously you don't accept that and think there is something more. So feel free to lay out your reasoning.
You do realize that there are forensic psychologists whose sole purpose is going into the minds of mass murderers and terrorists to understand the underlying reasons why they carried out violence, yes? In fact my friend is one in Denver and she spent 7 years studying to become a PhD in this field. They don't just listen to what the killer says immediately following his violence and say "Oh well we're done here! We know everything we need to know!".
It's like you're intent on making this as black/white as possible since it fits a framework of narrative that you're comfortable with.
Ok, so were the thousands of German soldiers carrying out the holocaust just mentally ill? They all had a genetic disorder?
People also act out of anger, and anger is not a mental illness. Racism is not a mental illness. I am not intent on making anything black and white, but I am also not intent on glossing over the obvious racism to find other reasons. Which BTW, only white shooters get this treatment. If this was a Muslim terror attack mental illness would never be a part of this conversation. If this was a gang member in the inner city, mental illness would never be a part of this conversation.
BTW. We aren't talking about what he said "after" the violence. His manifesto was written before the violence took place.
The point that is trying to be reached, is what leads a person to be a racist. It's not a natural part of the human condition at birth, it is nurtured in some way or another and my personal question is how that nurturing permeates the thought process of people.
A white guy gets attacked by a black guy and nearly killed (or vice versa), I could see how that kind of experience could permeate a person's psychology and grow. A person who is friends with those of a different color as a child, how does THAT person become racist?
See now you're just conflating things and confusion an emotion for a mental state. C'mon.
Anger is anger. It's impulsive and entirely emotional, which is typical when someone blows their lid and shoots someone out of anger. Typically that person will instantly regret it and realize what they've done. No one ever said it's a "mental illness" but anger is a temporary emotional state, not a semi permanent state of existence.
This terrorist in El Paso was not driven out of anger as an emotion. He didn't plan this, drive 600 miles, and kill people at will because of anger. There was a much more deeply seeded mix of likely mental unwellness, racism, insecurity, delusion, etc.
I don't know why you're even trying to debate this, really. Unless, again, you need this to fit a certain identity box that fits nicely into the prevalent narrative.
Latest posts
-
OT: War in Israel 🇮🇱, Iran launches attack on Israel- Latest: Knightwalker94
-
-
-
