Getting Serious about Curbing Gun Violence

[Crazyhole]

Ok, so were the thousands of German soldiers carrying out the holocaust just mentally ill? They all had a genetic disorder?

In a way, yes they were mentally ill because they had been brainwashed. There were also probably a lot of them who were taking orders out of fear. I'm sure a great many of them just became numb to the plight of other people because they had their own problems to focus on.

 

[Crazyhole]

See now you're just conflating things and confusion an emotion for a mental state. C'mon.

Anger is anger. It's impulsive and entirely emotional, which is typical when someone blows their lid and shoots someone out of anger. Typically that person will instantly regret it and realize what they've done. No one ever said it's a "mental illness" but anger is a temporary emotional state, not a semi permanent state of existence.

This terrorist in El Paso was not driven out of anger as an emotion. He didn't plan this, drive 600 miles, and kill people at will because of anger. There was a much more deeply seeded mix of likely mental unwellness, racism, insecurity, delusion, etc.

I don't know why you're even trying to debate this, really. Unless, again, you need this to fit a certain identity box that fits nicely into the prevalent narrative.

Anger is fine, it's just a normal emotion. Rage, on the other hand, can be the result of a mental illness or instability.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

Ok, so were the thousands of German soldiers carrying out the holocaust just mentally ill? They all had a genetic disorder?

Clearly I'm doing a terrible job of getting my point across.

I conceded this above:

I saw this in a Psychology Today article from last year: Having ”mental health issues” like getting in fights at school, beating your spouse, or being a loner who spends too much time on Internet hate sites is different from having a mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

So ok fine. If someone wants to distinguish between mental health/illness/disorder then fine but I think the point remains. The big picture idea is to create an environment that minimizes mental health related issues for as many individuals as possible.
​

I don't know know which German soldiers had genetic disorders or not, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm saying.
​

According to Medilexicon's medical dictionary, mental health is:

"Emotional, behavioral, and social maturity or normality; the absence of a mental or behavioral disorder; a state of psychological well-being in which one has achieved a satisfactory integration of one's instinctual drives acceptable to both oneself and one's social milieu; an appropriate balance of love, work, and leisure pursuits."

According to the WHO (World Health Organization), mental health is:

"... a state of well-being in which the individual realizes his or her own abilities, can cope with the normal stresses of life, can work productively and fruitfully, and is able to make a contribution to his or her community."

The WHO stresses that mental health "is not just the absence of mental disorder."

Mass murder is the EXACT opposite of making a contribution to one's community.

I honestly don't understand what there is to argue. There's almost no refuting that individuals that carry out these attacks are not mentally healthy.

You even mentioned "anger". Anger is an EMOTION .. that is the entire point.

If you're stuck on mental illness vs mental health then I apologize and ask that we move forward. My belief is that many people conflate the 2 when really what we mean to say is mental health. Either way, mental illness is under the mental health umbrella.

Racism is not mental illness. Racism is a set of complexes that if traced back are unhealthy. This is obvious. Racism itself doesn't just exist apart from the sum of its parts.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

The point that is trying to be reached, is what leads a person to be a racist. It's not a natural part of the human condition at birth, it is nurtured in some way or another and my personal question is how that nurturing permeates the thought process of people.

A white guy gets attacked by a black guy and nearly killed (or vice versa), I could see how that kind of experience could permeate a person's psychology and grow. A person who is friends with those of a different color as a child, how does THAT person become racist?

Yes thank you!!!

Whats the old saying? "Hurt people, hurt people"

This excuses absolutely nothing but it's the only way to curb it. Laws in a vacuum don't stop unhealthy people from being unhealthy.

 

[Cubs79]

See now you're just conflating things and confusion an emotion for a mental state. C'mon.

Anger is anger. It's impulsive and entirely emotional, which is typical when someone blows their lid and shoots someone out of anger. Typically that person will instantly regret it and realize what they've done. No one ever said it's a "mental illness" but anger is a temporary emotional state, not a semi permanent state of existence.

This terrorist in El Paso was not driven out of anger as an emotion. He didn't plan this, drive 600 miles, and kill people at will because of anger. There was a much more deeply seeded mix of likely mental unwellness, racism, insecurity, delusion, etc.

I don't know why you're even trying to debate this, really. Unless, again, you need this to fit a certain identity box that fits nicely into the prevalent narrative.

I am not debating it as much I am not running with theories supported by absolutely nothing at this point. You on the other than, are running with unsupported theories.

Has everyone who has ever killed for political or racial reasons been mentally ill?

 

[Cubs79]

The point that is trying to be reached, is what leads a person to be a racist. It's not a natural part of the human condition at birth, it is nurtured in some way or another and my personal question is how that nurturing permeates the thought process of people.

A white guy gets attacked by a black guy and nearly killed (or vice versa), I could see how that kind of experience could permeate a person's psychology and grow. A person who is friends with those of a different color as a child, how does THAT person become racist?

Racism has been around as long as societies have been around. And look, I most certainly believe in mental illness, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc etc. But every time a person doesn't fit in to how society thinks they should, or does something society doesn't find acceptable, does not make them mentally ill, which is where we appear to be going a lot with these conversations. The dude's manifesto was based on racism and political reasons. People have killed for centuries based on these things, so I don't understand why all of a sudden now we believe it must be a mental illness.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

I am not debating it as much I am not running with theories supported by absolutely nothing at this point. You on the other than, are running with unsupported theories.

What are you talking about unsupported?

What exactly do you think racism and hatred is? Do you think that they are physical things? How does it come about? Is it normal and healthy?

 

[Crazyhole]

"can cope with the normal stresses of life" seems to be the applicable part of that definition.

Were there abnormal stresses in this guys life? If so, what were they?

 

[Cubs79]

What are you talking about unsupported?

What exactly do you think racism and hatred is? Do you think that they are physical things? How does it come about? Is it normal and healthy?

I think hatred, anger, and anything similar is most certainly a natural human emotion. Racism is a subset of those things that can be brought on through a variety of reasons. No I don't think racism is good or healthy, but I don't know you can say something that has been around for the entirety of the human experience is abnormal.

 

[Cubs79]

"can cope with the normal stresses of life" seems to be the applicable part of that definition.

Were there abnormal stresses in this guys life? If so, what were they?

This is kind of my point. We don't know. What we know is what he wrote down. If something else comes out abut him we can have that conversation. But it appears people are trying to gloss over the stuff we do know, and run with information they are more or less guessing about. That is why I am taking issue to this conversation.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

This is kind of my point. We don't know. What we know is what he wrote down. If something else comes out abut him we can have that conversation. But it appears people are trying to gloss over the stuff we do know, and run with information they are more or less guessing about. That is why I am taking issue to this conversation.

And my point is it doesn't matter if the stresses were normal or abnormal .... HE COULDN'T COPE.

And seemingly more and more people are finding it more and more difficult to cope.

 

[Crazyhole]

This is kind of my point. We don't know. What we know is what he wrote down. If something else comes out abut him we can have that conversation. But it appears people are trying to gloss over the stuff we do know, and run with information they are more or less guessing about. That is why I am taking issue to this conversation.

That's a fair point, but kind of misses the mark. The reason that it's important to dig deeper into these things is to determine how he got there. Was his act based on some kind of stressor in his life that was out of his ability to cope with in a healthy manner, or was it simply an act caused by deep seated hatred? And if it was hatred, how did he get to that point? Either way, shooting a bunch of people doesn't exactly scream mental health.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

"can cope with the normal stresses of life" seems to be the applicable part of that definition.

Were there abnormal stresses in this guys life? If so, what were they?

Great question. And do we as a society keep uncovering more and more stresses without the ability to cope? Or are they the same stresses in different form? Either way .... seems like more people aren't coping right?

 

[ChrisKnight06]

I think hatred, anger, and anything similar is most certainly a natural human emotion. Racism is a subset of those things that can be brought on through a variety of reasons. No I don't think racism is good or healthy, but I don't know you can say something that has been around for the entirety of the human experience is abnormal.

Psychologist Bernard Golden, author of Overcoming Destructive Anger: Strategies That Work, believes that when hate involves participation in a group, it may help foster a sense of connection and camaraderie that fills a void in one’s identity. He describes hatred of individuals or groups as a way of distracting oneself from the more challenging and anxiety-provoking task of creating one’s own identity:


"Acts of hate are attempts to distract oneself from feelings such as helplessness, powerlessness, injustice, inadequacy and shame. Hate is grounded in some sense of perceived threat. It is an attitude that can give rise to hostility and aggression toward individuals or groups. Like much of anger, it is a reaction to and distraction from some form of inner pain. The individual consumed by hate may believe that the only way to regain some sense of power over his or her pain is to preemptively strike out at others. In this context, each moment of hate is a temporary reprieve from inner suffering."

Societal and Cultural Factors

The answer to why we hate, according to Silvia Dutchevici, LCSW, president and founder of the Critical Therapy Center, lies not only in our psychological makeup or family history, but also in our cultural and political history. “We live in a war culture that promotes violence, in which competition is a way of life,” she says. “We fear connecting because it requires us to reveal something about ourselves. We are taught to hate the enemy — meaning anyone different than us — which leaves little room for vulnerability and an exploration of hate through empathic discourse and understanding. In our current society, one is more ready to fight than to resolve conflict. Peace is seldom the option.”

What Can We Do?

Hatred has to be learned, Golden says: “We are all born with the capacity for aggression as well as compassion. Which tendencies we embrace requires mindful choice by individuals, families, communities and our culture in general. The key to overcoming hate is education: at home, in schools, and in the community.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201703/the-psychology-hate

 

[Crazyhole]

Great question. And do we as a society keep uncovering more and more stresses without the ability to cope? Or are they the same stresses in different form? Either way .... seems like more people aren't coping right?

You're preaching to the choir here. I know exactly what it's like to deal with abnormal stresses and use unhealthy coping mechanisms to do it. Drinking it away, distracting yourself with social media, watching TV, looking for others to validate poor decision making. Generally just trying to ignore things and become numb to life. It's a very dangerous road to go down. I also know exactly what it's like to deal with abnormal stressors in a healthy way. One path ends up in a very bad place and the other leads to personal growth and joy.

We just don't know yet whether this kid had a normal life with normal stresses and was just crazy, or if he had tragedy of some kind and didn't have the support structure or knowledge to know how to cope. But if we are honest about trying to stop these kinds of things we have to start by understanding the psychology behind the persons act.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

You're preaching to the choir here. I know exactly what it's like to deal with abnormal stresses and use unhealthy coping mechanisms to do it. Drinking it away, distracting yourself with social media, watching TV, looking for others to validate poor decision making. Generally just trying to ignore things and become numb to life. It's a very dangerous road to go down. I also know exactly what it's like to deal with abnormal stressors in a healthy way. One path ends up in a very bad place and the other leads to personal growth and joy.

We just don't know yet whether this kid had a normal life with normal stresses and was just crazy, or if he had tragedy of some kind and didn't have the support structure or knowledge to know how to cope. But if we are honest about trying to stop these kinds of things we have to start by understanding the psychology behind the persons act.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Crazyhole]

I almost hate the term because it has been so bastarsized over the last 25 years, but I truly believe that the key to ending all of this lies at the feet of self-esteem. Not the "everybody gets a trophy and we have to end bullying" approach to self-esteem, but in helping people see their strengths for what they are and their weaknesses for what they are. It's hard to be objective about oneself, but it can be done and it leads to more happiness than seeking outside approval and hiding failures.

 

[sk8knight]

That's a fair point, but kind of misses the mark. The reason that it's important to dig deeper into these things is to determine how he got there. Was his act based on some kind of stressor in his life that was out of his ability to cope with in a healthy manner, or was it simply an act caused by deep seated hatred? And if it was hatred, how did he get to that point? Either way, shooting a bunch of people doesn't exactly scream mental health.

There’s no guarantee that the manifesto is even truthful. It’s not unheard of for a perpetrator to straight up lie about their motivations to stir up more trouble or to fit some narrative. Then they tell the real story when pressed.

 

[Cubs79]

Psychologist Bernard Golden, author of Overcoming Destructive Anger: Strategies That Work, believes that when hate involves participation in a group, it may help foster a sense of connection and camaraderie that fills a void in one’s identity. He describes hatred of individuals or groups as a way of distracting oneself from the more challenging and anxiety-provoking task of creating one’s own identity:


"Acts of hate are attempts to distract oneself from feelings such as helplessness, powerlessness, injustice, inadequacy and shame. Hate is grounded in some sense of perceived threat. It is an attitude that can give rise to hostility and aggression toward individuals or groups. Like much of anger, it is a reaction to and distraction from some form of inner pain. The individual consumed by hate may believe that the only way to regain some sense of power over his or her pain is to preemptively strike out at others. In this context, each moment of hate is a temporary reprieve from inner suffering."

Societal and Cultural Factors

The answer to why we hate, according to Silvia Dutchevici, LCSW, president and founder of the Critical Therapy Center, lies not only in our psychological makeup or family history, but also in our cultural and political history. “We live in a war culture that promotes violence, in which competition is a way of life,” she says. “We fear connecting because it requires us to reveal something about ourselves. We are taught to hate the enemy — meaning anyone different than us — which leaves little room for vulnerability and an exploration of hate through empathic discourse and understanding. In our current society, one is more ready to fight than to resolve conflict. Peace is seldom the option.”

What Can We Do?

Hatred has to be learned, Golden says: “We are all born with the capacity for aggression as well as compassion. Which tendencies we embrace requires mindful choice by individuals, families, communities and our culture in general. The key to overcoming hate is education: at home, in schools, and in the community.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201703/the-psychology-hate

But none of that specifies mental illness. Everyone can be anxious, sad, feel inadequate, etc etc, that doesnt mean we are all mentally ill.

 

[Cubs79]

There’s no guarantee that the manifesto is even truthful. It’s not unheard of for a perpetrator to straight up lie about their motivations to stir up more trouble or to fit some narrative. Then they tell the real story when pressed.

If that ends up being the case then obviously the story would change.

 

[sk8knight]

If that ends up being the case then obviously the story would change.

Yeah. But it’s a strong reason why we shouldn’t make policy directly following an event.

 

[Crazyhole]

There’s no guarantee that the manifesto is even truthful. It’s not unheard of for a perpetrator to straight up lie about their motivations to stir up more trouble or to fit some narrative. Then they tell the real story when pressed.

Great point. Jussie Smollet comes to mind.

 

[Cubs79]

That's a fair point, but kind of misses the mark. The reason that it's important to dig deeper into these things is to determine how he got there. Was his act based on some kind of stressor in his life that was out of his ability to cope with in a healthy manner, or was it simply an act caused by deep seated hatred? And if it was hatred, how did he get to that point? Either way, shooting a bunch of people doesn't exactly scream mental health.

But violence isnt always a sign of mental illness either. People are capable of being clear thinking and violent.

 

[Cubs79]

Yeah. But it’s a strong reason why we shouldn’t make policy directly following an event.

Ok, but we are more talking about mental healh, but got ya.

 

[ChrisKnight06]

But none of that specifies mental illness. Everyone can be anxious, sad, feel inadequate, etc etc, that doesnt mean we are all mentally ill.

But being mentally healthy means being able to cope with those things in a way that is beneficial to yourself and others!

 

[Crazyhole]

But violence isnt always a sign of mental illness either. People are capable of being clear thinking and violent.

You're really splitting hairs here.

Lay this out for me: explain how a clear thinking person drives 9 hours to shoot up a bunch of people he's never met, stating that he will likely be killed by the police or by one of the Invaders he hates so much?

 

[sk8knight]

Ok, but we are more talking about mental healh, but got ya.

Yeah, but you have candidates pushing red flag laws and plenty on this board pushing gun control/confiscation.

 

[Cubs79]

But being mentally healthy means being able to cope with those things in a way that is beneficial to yourself and others!

I dont buy that, I am sorry but I dont. With this theory, it essentially means people are good and if for some reason they arent good, it is because they are not mentally well. I believe clear thinking people are capable of doing bad things.

 

[Cubs79]

You're really splitting hairs here.

Lay this out for me: explain how a clear thinking person drives 9 hours to shoot up a bunch of people he's never met, stating that he will likely be killed by the police or by one of the Invaders he hates so much?

WHy is it not possible? We all arent the same, we all dont think the same. People are willing to die to defend their loved ones, their country, etc, and based on his manifesto he seemed to believe he was defending his country, and it was worth dying for. You and I obviously dont see it that way, but it is more than possible than a clear headed person can see a situation different than you or I.

 

[Cubs79]

Yeah, but you have candidates pushing red flag laws and plenty on this board pushing gun control/confiscation.

Yeah but this isnt a one time thing. Anyone pushing for things is doing so based on the numerous mass shootings, not this one specifically.

 

[The Branch]

Here are a few ideas that would help ....

1. High schools and colleges need to invest more in mental help. While it is true that you can't solve the "breakdown of the family" and the "children out of wedlock" with legislation, you can realize that kids these days have a lot of stress in their life (real or imagined) and lack coping skills for a variety of reasons. There should be multiple mental health counselors in every middle and high school. There should be teams of them in Universities. There should be mandatory visits, whether you have issues or not. I don't want to hear about the budgets ... don't even start.

2. You know how the police troll the internet and chat rooms for child molesters already? No politics, no banning, no narratives, just trolling for adults that want to hook up with kids. Why don't we have authorities that troll these same areas for hate and signs of great stress? Almost all of these mass shooters leave bread crumb trails a mile long. The kid that shot up Parkland was turned in to the FBI twice and they didn't do crap. Put teams of guys in these chat rooms and look for people talking about mass shootings, racial hatred, etc. etc. etc. They are there.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Crazyhole]

WHy is it not possible? We all arent the same, we all dont think the same. People are willing to die to defend their loved ones, their country, etc, and based on his manifesto he seemed to believe he was defending his country, and it was worth dying for. You and I obviously dont see it that way, but it is more than possible than a clear headed person can see a situation different than you or I.

I see your point, but one aspect of the human condition that exists in every healthy minded person is self preservation. I could explain away martyrdom for a person doing something with a religious motivation, but this kid is a self proclaimed atheist.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Just a reminder that 60 people were shot in Chicago this weekend alone with 10 people killed. All while using handguns and all probably illegally obtained.

This happens like every weekend and barely makes the news.

 

[sk8knight]

Yeah but this isnt a one time thing. Anyone pushing for things is doing so based on the numerous mass shootings, not this one specifically.

Well if it is that big of an issue that we need to rush policy through on emotional appeal that infringes on constitution rights, then maybe we should’ve pushed our elected leadership to work on this policy while they were so tunnel-visioned on impeachment and abortion.

 

[UCFWayne]

Well if it is that big of an issue that we need to rush policy through on emotional appeal that infringes on constitution rights, then maybe we should’ve pushed our elected leadership to work on this policy while they were so tunnel-visioned on impeachment and abortion.

well thats because trump is existential threat to our democracy!

 

[Cubs79]

Well if it is that big of an issue that we need to rush policy through on emotional appeal that infringes on constitution rights, then maybe we should’ve pushed our elected leadership to work on this policy while they were so tunnel-visioned on impeachment and abortion.

The house has passed 2 gun safety bills earlier this year that McConnell wont bring to a vote in the senate. Gun control has been a political topic for years, so I am a bit unsure why you are acting like it's a new issue all of a sudden.

 

[sk8knight]

The house has passed 2 gun safety bills earlier this year that McConnell wont bring to a vote in the senate. Gun control has been a political topic for years, so I am a bit unsure why you are acting like it's a new issue all of a sudden.

They're both window dressing bills that have no chance of passing the Senate anyways. They are billed as bipartisan because they got a few (less than 10) House R's to vote Yes.

HR 2019 is the one that requires background checks for all person-to-person transfers. This is bad policy and is simply meant to make it look like they are being responsive so that people like you feel good about their service. Putting the government in the middle of father-son or son-mother transfers is a horrible idea and only passed because D's are so good at toeing the party line.

HR 1112 extends the period in which firearms sellers have to wait before they receive an answer from the background check from 3 days to 20 days. I would like someone to point out how that would've stopped any of these mass shootings. Or something from the FBI saying that their system cannot perform a background check in 3 days. I have seen plenty of women who have tried to get firearms because they are experiencing an imminent threat and have to wait 3 days. Making them wait up to 20 days now seems like a direct attack on women.

 

[Cubs79]

They're both window dressing bills that have no chance of passing the Senate anyways. They are billed as bipartisan because they got a few (less than 10) House R's to vote Yes.

HR 2019 is the one that requires background checks for all person-to-person transfers. This is bad policy and is simply meant to make it look like they are being responsive so that people like you feel good about their service. Putting the government in the middle of father-son or son-mother transfers is a horrible idea and only passed because D's are so good at toeing the party line.

HR 1112 extends the period in which firearms sellers have to wait before they receive an answer from the background check from 3 days to 20 days. I would like someone to point out how that would've stopped any of these mass shootings. Or something from the FBI saying that their system cannot perform a background check in 3 days. I have seen plenty of women who have tried to get firearms because they are experiencing an imminent threat and have to wait 3 days. Making them wait up to 20 days now seems like a direct attack on women.

I am pretty sure you would say any bill on this issue is window dressing, because one side of this issue doesn't care about doing anything to make it better.

And BTW, Republicans are more than welcome to introduce their own bills on the issue if they don't think the Democratic bills are good enough.

 

[sk8knight]

I am pretty sure you would say any bill on this issue is window dressing, because one side of this issue doesn't care about doing anything to make it better.

And BTW, Republicans are more than welcome to introduce their own bills on the issue if they don't think the Democratic bills are good enough.

Tell me how those bills make it better rather than fall back to "Republicans bad".

 

[Cubs79]

Tell me how those bills make it better rather than fall back to "Republicans bad".

If you think the Democrats only offer window dressing, then why not put pressure on Republicans to come up with better ideas?

I think red flag laws and more background checks could at least halt some dangerous people from getting weapons. Would it be perfect? No, better than what we have now? Yes.

Now I am sure you disagree, and that is fine. But instead of just telling us how it is window dressing yadda yadda, why not save everyone some time and maybe tell us what you think is better?