you do realize that reps have come up with several bills to update the background check system right? but then the dems try to paperclip tons of extra stuff that arent broadly supported and the bills die. thats politics.
Getting Serious about Curbing Gun Violence
- Thread starter DaShuckster
- Start date
What are the bill #s I will look into it.
And yes, Pat Toomey and a few others have worked with Democrats on this for years, but it never passes with Republicans. I am specifically asking for bill #s since you say they don't pass because of Democrats adding things to the bills.
i dont remember them but they generally resurface after every shooting. did you know that the nra supports a bill that would force all the states to report various criteria into the background check system? why arent all the states doing that already?
if that were in a bill all alone, nothing else added it would probably pass with unanimous support. the problem is politics and the need to paperclip all kinds of other bs on there like "universal background checks" instead of just doing basic bills to fix the problem. thus nothing gets done.
The NRA gives lip service and then donates to politicians who consistently vote against background checks. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/05/nra...g-against-expanded-background-check-laws.html
again, alot of that crap that doesnt get passed is because of add ons that arent broadly supported and can kill bills that would help the system. unfortunately thats politics.
You cant just keep making that claimant without providing any support. Especially after I just gave you an article about the NRA donating to candidates to stop background checks.
to stop universal background checks maybe. that is stupid and pointless rule that wont do a damn thing.
Remember how when Trump says things like "infested" it's a dog whistle? When Democrats say "NRA" it's also a dog whistle. The NRA isn't nearly as pro 2nd amendment and pro-gun as they are made out to be. They are, in my opinion, good on both of those but not nearly the boogieman they're made out to be.
The NRA is an actual lobby group who donates to a lot of political candidates. Talking about specific lobby group is a dog whistle?
I agree they aren't really a guns rights group, and they are gun manufacturers lobby. Two of their biggest donors are Italian companies, who only care about gun rights in America because they can sell more guns.
Ask your average democrat voter a question about the NRA and the term incites an emotional response. Very few can give you a single detail about what the organization does but they know that it's evil.
Well you’re full of crap. The NRA national training academy is the gold standard in the US for commercial safety and training advocacy, and they have a huge membership base comprised of normal people from coast to coast. If they didn’t have such grassroots support then they wouldn’t have the top level political clout that they do.
You want to invent this narrative that they only exist to serve OEMs but this is something that people say when they have absolutely no idea what the NRA actually is or what they do.
I think red flag laws have promise if considered and applied correctly. They have the possibility of infringing on a number of rights and should be balanced with due process.
I’ve said many times that the solution space is not in gun laws but in solving the cultural issues. You rejected that a while ago.
One of the laws the house passed is a red flag law that you earlier called window dressing.
I am not saying they "only" serve manufacturers, but anyone who denies their work in Washington with politicians isn't based around manufacturers is naïve. Nobody cares if they teach safety and training, more power to them. People care because they influence our laws.
https://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1
They have influence BECAUSE they have a nationwide grassroots membership
What don’t you get about that?
I know many people that care about them teaching safety. You don’t care because the media has you convinced they’re evil.
He has no idea what the NRA is beyond what the Huffington Post writes about them
Oh good lord. I am saying it is fine if they teach safety. When people talk about their concerns with the NRA it isn't because they teach safety, it is because of their lobbying, and you very well know that.
If you are dismissing their lobbying powered by corporate dollars, then it is you who has no idea what the NRA is in 2019.
in the grand scheme of things the nra doesnt donate a ton of money to candidates as compared to other lobby groups. even with the nra having alot of problems right now, that doesnt stop a large group of people that support the second amendment. not to mention that people who support the second amendment arent just republicans. there are plenty of liberals that also support it. i know several.
This is so dumb. Why would politicians care if corporations have money to them if it didn’t mean a damn thing back home electorally? It wouldn’t matter.
The NRA matters because they represent a lot of people in every state that are NRA members and care about what they advocate.
I know you’re taught not to believe this and that the NRA is the boogeyman but it’s true
Are you honestly trying to tell me that lobbying dollars don't influence politicians?
compare the money they use to lobby vs other special interest groups. theres a big divide. the nra's power comes from their membership as well as other people that are pro 2nd but might not necessarily be nra members. there are plenty of people in this country that are pro 2nd across party lines.
Their access to politicians comes through their lobbyists, and this isn't debatable. I have already posted an article about how much they donate to politicians. You guys are simply in denial if you deny that and naïve if you don't think lobby groups influence politicians.
Jesus Christ dude, we're not debating that they lobby Congress. We are debating WHY; you have taken the spoonfed narrative that it's only because corporations donate to them or whatever. We are telling you that they have lobbying power because of their nationwide membership and electoral influence that they wield.
Which is, by the way, exactly why lobbying is not only legal but very healthy for a Republic such as ours. The right for anyone to directly lobby members of congress is a unique right granted to our citizenry which most other countries don't have.
Well we disagree about lobbying being good for the country, but that is a different conversation.
And they lobby congress to protect the corporate interests of their gun manufacturers, sorry but that is true. The only one lapping up a spoon fed narrative in this conversation is the same gullible person who was easily duped by a reality TV star, and that person isn't me.
One of the largest donors to the NRA is Beretta, and they aren't an American company, but they are donating because they are concerned about the rights of the American people? This is really how gullible you are?
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Lobbying is important because our leaders aren't experts in damn near anything. Lobbyists present their case to the legislator and back it up with data and information favorable to their cause. This is essential for legislators to be able to make an informed and measured decision. Does it go wrong sometimes, yes. But that doesn't mean that you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Sorry dude but you live in a little bubble created for you by the HuffPo or whatever else you read. You've been told that the NRA is the boogeyman and you're all in on that narrative, even though their campaign donations are tiny compared to other lobbyist and PAC money.
As for raising Beretta as some sort of point about foreign interests or whatever, you're just proving how ignorant you are on this entire topic. Beretta's HQ in Italy but they have a MASSIVE presence in America to include: Beretta USA with their largest firearms manufacturing facility in Tennesee, Steiner Optics in California, Burris optics in Colorado, Benelli USA in CT, STS in Ohio, Diffraction Ltd in Vermont, Cougar Corp in NYC, etc etc etc All of these facilities employ people who are fully supportive of 2nd Amendment rights and collectively raise money and donate to the NRA. Your attempt to label this as some foreign interest trying to meddle in our politics is just flat out wrong (again).
I bet you had no idea that the Beretta M9 was the sidearm of the United States Military for like 40 years?
![[roll]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/roll.r191677.gif "roll [roll]")
cubs is disingenuous
disingenuous[ dis-in-jen-yoo-uh s ]
adjective
lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere
disingenuous[ dis-in-jen-yoo-uh s ]
adjective
lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere
Sorry dude but you live in a little bubble created for you by the HuffPo or whatever else you read. You've been told that the NRA is the boogeyman and you're all in on that narrative, even though their campaign donations are tiny compared to other lobbyist and PAC money.
As for raising Beretta as some sort of point about foreign interests or whatever, you're just proving how ignorant you are on this entire topic. Beretta's HQ in Italy but they have a MASSIVE presence in America to include: Beretta USA with their largest firearms manufacturing facility in Tennesee, Steiner Optics in California, Burris optics in Colorado, Benelli USA in CT, STS in Ohio, Diffraction Ltd in Vermont, Cougar Corp in NYC, etc etc etc All of these facilities employ people who are fully supportive of 2nd Amendment rights and collectively raise money and donate to the NRA. Your attempt to label this as some foreign interest trying to meddle in our politics is just flat out wrong (again).
I bet you had no idea that the Beretta M9 was the sidearm of the United States Military for like 40 years?
They are still an Italian Company. They sell guns in America to make money. They want loose gun laws in America because it helps with sales. They are only interested in gun rights, because of sales. I don't understand what is complicated about this.
What the hell does the Beretta sidearm have to do with this conversation?
Feel free to point out what is disingenuous about my posts. Or you can just continue with this passive aggressive approach where you never actually make a point, I couldn't care less.
you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the nra. 85 and i have both explained why the nra is as power as it is despite the somewhat limited donations they make in comparison to other lobbying groups. you shit all over it with bs talking points youve heard from the media. the nra definitely leans to the right but that doesnt mean there arent a lot of members that are liberal but happen to be pro 2nd. also 85 works in the gun industry.
but go ahead and keep repeating your uneducated talking points. at this point there is no reason to take you seriously on this subject.
You and 85 never offer any support for your views, none. I provided you a link of the corporate donors to the NRA, and your response is to simply disregard and tell me I don't know what I am talking about, but you never provide any evidence that what you are saying is true.
Facts aren't talking points. This is the most rich thing about you and 85. You act like I am relying on talking points even though I provide support for my views and in this thread provided $ numbers that corporations have provided to the NRA. You basically just tell me I am wrong and talk about the NRA's members (which BTW, I have never denied they have members), provide no support for your arguments, and then accuse me of talking points? If you cant support your own argument then you are the one regurgitating talking points genius.
And don't take me seriously, that is fine. You aren't the least bit interesting to talk to, so you don't take me seriously, I think you are a simpleton who doesn't bother to do the least bit of research on anything, so lets just move on and not engage with each other then. Deal?
You refuse to admit that Beretta donates to the NRA because thousands of Americans work for them who want advocacy on behalf of the 2nd Amendment. The fact that you refuse to even admit this tells me you have no interest in looking at this objectively
Thousands of Americans? Where are you getting that #? I'm seeing they employ about 2900 people, and I believe that is world wide, not just the US. There plant in TN employs about 150 people, and they employ about 400-500 in Maryland from I can find, and these are there largest US facilities, so where are the thousands of others?
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the nra has something like 5.5m members in all 50 states. not to mention there are plenty of members that are also liberals because believe it or not, there are plenty of people on both sides that love the 2nd. not to mention millions of people like me who support the 2nd but might not be members.
there are something like 300m guns in this country in a country of 320m people. its estimated that 1 in 3 people in this country owns at least one gun.
now im not a rocket scientist, but id be willing to bet that would correlate to 1 in 3 people being pro 2nd. now obviously they arent all in the nra, but if you dont think gun rights matters to 100+m people in this country with a gun, you are being, whats that word again? disingenuous
You can keep calling me disingenuous all you want, but your arguments are overly simplistic and you don't regard any nuance in peoples views, and as I have said before, you never support your views
What exactly is "pro 2nd amendment"? Define what you actually mean by that? The 2nd amendment clearly makes room for regulations, so one can be for gun regulations and still be pro 2nd amendment. You can't just throw out "pro 2nd amendment" as some sort of argument without clarifying how you define pro 2nd amendment.
http://pollingreport.com/guns.htm
Over 60% of Americans support stricter gun control laws, does that mean they aren't pro 2nd amendment?
over 100 million people own guns and somewhere over 300 million guns in this country. thats almost 1 gun per person with the most conservative of estimates. moderate or even high estimates put it well above 1 gun per person in this country. that is where the nra gets its support from.
then you post a poll with some very generic questions about gun control/regulation as if thats supposed to bolster your claim the nra doesnt actually derive its power from the millions of lawful gun owners in this country. here is a hint for you, im a gun owner, and i support some gun reform, i even laid out the reforms i would support. but most of the reforms im against. but because the terms in those polls are so generic you could still consider me part of your poll.
i posted the definition of disingenuous for you. then you come out and pretend you dont know what pro 2nd amendment means. im done arguing with you.
Your entire argument is very generic. It is more than possible for someone to own a gun, but still want more gun control laws. Your argument doesn't even acknowledge that as a possibility.
I know you think I am disingenuous, you have said that numerous times. We all got it, I promise you.
I also asked you to define pro 2nd amendment, and you couldn't do it, instead relying on personal insults, which is telling.
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