Methodists Vote to Keep Traditional Marriage Stance
- Thread starter UCFWayne
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I am pretty well versed in doctrine and the history of a lot of churches. Its something that I do because IMO the basis of Christianity is the pusuit of truth. I don't believe in sola scriptura because I think that God continues to reveal wisdom to people every single day. At the same time, the Bible contains a heck of a lot of wisdom and truth, and its hard to deny it, particularly the new testament. People look at the bible and see a set of rules and laws, but when you read it enough you can see the humanity in the authors as well and can relate to their struggles. They arent just a bunch of holy rollers preaching from a soapbox. Paul in particular is a very relatable person. He starts out being a terrible person, then is compelled to change his ways. Then, over the course of his life you can see how he goes from being a man who is headstrong to a meek, beaten down man in prison feeling sorry for himself. Its such an inspiring story that shows humanity at its best, at its worst, at its strongest, and at its weakest. No religion has been able to encapsualte that in doctrine because how to you legislate humanity? Thats why I dont ascribe to any one denomination.
I posted some of these videos years ago but I think you'd enjoy this guy's channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/InspiringPhilosophy
Hmm I like this. Is this like an idea of an awakenig? Truth being your divine spiritual essence seeking a return or unification with its source? Like a raindrop finding its way back to the ocean. What you seek is seeking you. Once you realize this the rest is just how smooth the ride is back to the ocean?
Thats a pretty awesome analogy.
I like to look at it like this: a child doesn't play hide and seek without knowing what they are seeking. They don't go looking for someone unless they already know they are there to be found. That's the fun in it and they already know the reward. If you are seeking, you already know what it is you are going to find, which means you've already found it, but the game goes on and on and on. Its when you quit the game because something else grabs your attention that you lose.
Gays burn in hell?
I'M KIDDING!!!!!!!!
but seriously, its all about Gods grace. Starting with Judaism, it was always about performance and "rightousness" because that makes people feel like they are in control. The truth is that God can forgive and will forgive anything as long as we continue seeking him and recognize our failures, but people have an inherent desire for control. Thats why church structure worked for so long. Give us a set of rules to follow and its under my control.
God doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves through our guilt and refusal to accept his grace. What was the point of the 10 commandments? Not to give us rules to live by because he will punish us if we dont follow them, but to give us a roadmap of things to avoid because its on us to continue seeking him. He wants all of us to come back to him. Then he also gave us the biggest out in the history of the world in Jesus.
I think this whole thing is a good listen but at least check from 11:45 to like 37:00.
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Not only control but ease right? It's easier to just adhere to a system already in place than take personal accountability for spiritual truth seeking. Once a week show up and recite xyz and perform these rituals. A lot easier than the messy work that comes with a spiritual self actualization. Not saying there isn't use in tradition or that there aren't people who do both, just that it appears far too many get hung up on the wrong stuff.
How do you know that the answer hasn't already been provided via the church? MAybe the goal of the church was simply to make it easier for you instead of having you waste your time going down the wrong path?
There's probably some truth to this. It seems to me that churches who have an abundance of rituals are focusing on doing things that help you stay righteous so that you don't live with guilt. Guilt is poison to faith. On the flip side, the more charismatic churches focus on the experience of a relationship with the holy spirit. Both approaches can lead to a person having both of those attributes in their faith but its still up to each person to pursue the one that their church isnt feeding them.
I know a lot of Catholics who are great people but are spiritually dead. I also know a lot of evangelicals who have great prayer lives but aren't very ethical people. I probably only know a half dozen people who truly have both.
I think its mostly about having the comfort in feeling like a person controls their own destiny. While we do to a certain point, the reality is that we can't be perfect and need Gods grace, christs sacrifice, and the guidance of the holy spirit to truly be saved.
To the main topic of the thread, the UMC has merely affirmed what Christianity has always taught. In other words, remaining faithful in the face of opposition.
Now, far be it from me to judge anyone’s beliefs about God and their own spiritual journey but there seems to be some misunderstanding of historic, orthodox, biblical Christianity. If you consider yourself a Christian, then this should be familiar to you:
Every religion (theistic and non-theistic alike) is about man seeking God (or whatever you substitute for God). The scandal of Christianity is that it’s about God seeking man through Jesus. It begins with the first announcement of the gospel immediately after the fall of man (Genesis 3:15).
It is foreshadowed throughout the law and the prophets (Old Testament) and is fulfilled in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is the only way to salvation and no one is saved apart from him (John 14:6).
In God’s grace and mercy he is patient in judgment, not wanting any to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
However, if you reject Jesus as both Lord and savior, God gives you over to your desire which is eternal separation (2 Thessalonians 1:9).
But those who receive God’s gift of redemption, through Jesus, become children of God (John 1:12).
Again, I don’t write this to condemn anyone for their own personal beliefs, I’m merely challenging those who think they have discovered the true meaning of Christianity as a journey of spiritual self-enlightenment.
If you don’t consider yourself a Christian then I understand why you reject everything I wrote and I am not directing this at you. If you consider yourself a Christian and disagree with anything I wrote, then I welcome a thoughtful and reasoned response; I may not be quick to answer due to my job but I'll try to eventually respond.
TL; DR: It's basic Christianity
I really enjoyed this post. Please don't misinterpret what I am suggesting is replacing christian faith with a spiritual journey of gnosis or enlightenment. I do believe that aspects of the Christian journey reflect that, but not as an alternative to it.
Sorry, but I'm not buying the "b-b-but we've ALWAYS done it this way" defense. The notion that 'homosexuality is a sin' just doesn't hold up anymore based on what we now know about human sexuality. Like heterosexuality, it CAN be a sin if it involves adultery, sexual assault, etc. But goodness gracious, this is 2019 AD, not 1513 BC. In today's world, are 'the faithful' to believe that Gay Christianity is an oxymoron?
If "remaining faithful in the face of opposition" means believing the love between two honorable, caring, faithful, individuals of the same sex is an "abomination" then I would argue we Christians have lost our way and forgotten that the core message of our Lord Jesus Christ is one of hope and love.
I don't think the basis of the discussion has ever been about love. Its about whether a church should advocate a relationship that includes activity that includes something that God described as fornication. No church would knowingly endorse a marital lifestyle that involves swinging or sex orgies because they are also forms of fornication.
Fornication is sexual intercourse OUTSIDE of marriage.
This whole thing with the UMC escalated when some GLBT-friendly Methodist clergy performed Gay marriages.
I should have said "sexual immorality" as opposed to fornication. The basis of that comes from Leviticus 18, which lists all of the people we shouldnt have sex with. That includes homosexuality which is forbidden in the most deliberate terms of all of the actions listed.
Sort of. I guess it really just comes down to whether when christ came to abolish the old law, is that a reference to Leviticus in totality and whether we should view Leviticus as just a book of Hebrew laws or a book that includes both laws and suggestions for living a righteous life. For example, leviticus is the basis for tithing. If we accept that jesus abolished the old law, tithing shouldn't be a thing because it isnt required, but we know that tithing is a good thing for a parishoner of a church and for the church body. Its something that is beneficial but not a requirement. Possibly the same applies to sexual immorality except instead of being an inclusion for a righteous life it would be seen as an exclusion for a righteous life.
Again, sexual immorality is sex outside of marriage. Gay marriage is a reality in this country because -- thanks to science -- there is wide-spread understanding that Gay and Bisexual men and women exist naturally within our species. This has let to the natural conclusion that gay couples should be allowed to legally marry within our society. Seems to me that a monogamous gay couple who worships our Lord Jesus Christ should be welcomed by The Faithful, not turned away because of who they are.
I don't think it is a matter of whether they should be welcomed, rather its a matter of whether they should be advocated. And don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting one is right and the other is wrong; I'm just making an observation on how churches have and still do approach the issue.
Advocate? That's weird. For some reason when my wife and I go to church, I've never once felt like we were 'advocating' our heterosexuality. We're just two Christians there to honor God.
I'm no psychic, but gut tells me that a Gay couple goes to church for the same reason.
Church structure is a pretty amazing thing really. Being able to maintain a form of unity amongst people who all have differing opinions on things is a difficult proposition. Maybe thats the real beauty in having a faith structure.
Consider this: would you belong to a church that embraces and advocates for a man's right to marry and have sexual relations with his son? Probably not. Thankfully that is something that no mainstream churches have ever had to deal with, but thats only the case because the morals that are set forth in the bible and extra-canonical books are so widely accepted as being eternal truths. As we chip away at those truths due to societal norms and a desire to form our own personal church, those churches split or we have a schism. The question still and always will remain, how much of the bible do I truly believe and how consistent is my church with those beliefs? Just the fact that no 2 people have the exact same beliefs make the fact that so many churches have survived for centuries a remarkable achievement
Consider this: would you belong to a church that embraces and advocates for a man's right to marry and have sexual relations with his son? Probably not. Thankfully that is something that no mainstream churches have ever had to deal with, but thats only the case because the morals that are set forth in the bible and extra-canonical books are so widely accepted as being eternal truths. As we chip away at those truths due to societal norms and a desire to form our own personal church, those churches split or we have a schism. The question still and always will remain, how much of the bible do I truly believe and how consistent is my church with those beliefs? Just the fact that no 2 people have the exact same beliefs make the fact that so many churches have survived for centuries a remarkable achievement
You don't have to actively advocate for a heterosexual marriage because the bible explicitly says that its ok. You could probably make the argument that Paul said its better to not get married but he never condemned the act either. Monogamous heterosexual marriage isnt just something that society claims to be an acceptable practice, God does as well.
Come on, Crazy. So now you're going with "the slippery slope" defense? If we accept Gay couples and Gay priests in our churches, it's only a matter of time before practitioners of incest and beastiality will want to join up too?
Science has changed the game -- and society's attitude -- when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. Mainstream churches who continue to ignore this fact, do so at their peril. The hard reality is that the churches who want to remain mainstream will have to adapt because their congregations will demand it, by their butts in the pews on Sunday and by their donations.
When large, international churches like the United Methodist Church are confronted with the challenge of progressive American congregations who are demanding it and others who remain stuck in the past, I'm afraid a split is inevitable.
Thats not my point at all. I was just talking about how amazing it is that churches have been able to exist for so long in spite of individuals having such differing viewpoints. Just think about how quickly any relationship can end based on a difference of opinion, and yet somehow 4 billion Christians over 2000 years have all found a connection that is enough to maintain a common bond. You support gay marriage but the guy sitting in front of you in church may not, and yet you are both there, sharing your time with one another in a common bond that transcends your differences. My point was that if he married his son and that church embraced it, you probably would delineate yourself and find a different church, but its relatively rare that something of that magnitude permeates the basic Christian faith.Come on, Crazy. So now you're going with "the slippery slope" defense? If we accept Gay couples and Gay priests in our churches, it's only a matter of time before practitioners of incest and beastiality will want to join up too?
Science has changed the game -- and society's attitude -- when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. Mainstream churches who continue to ignore this fact, do so at their peril. The hard reality is that the churches who want to remain mainstream will have to adapt because their congregations will demand it, by their butts in the pews on Sunday and by their donations.
When large, international churches like the United Methodist Church are confronted with the challenge of progressive American congregations who are demanding it and others who remain stuck in the past, I'm afraid a split is inevitable.
The questions becomes “who decides the purpose of existence, the creator or creation?” Not to be too graphic, but who gets to decide the proper use of our bodies?
When we reject what God has clearly said regarding marriage and human sexuality, we echo the serpent’s question to Eve in the Garden, “did God really say ‘you shall not eat from any tree’?” (Genesis 3:1).
In the context of “gay marriage,” the Bible (incl. the NT) prohibits Christians from engaging in sexual immorality; this includes homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9).
The bottom line is that we don’t reinterpret scripture’s moral exhortations in light of shifting cultural opinions, or vague invocations to “science,” because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8-9). (Caveat, we embrace science for what we can learn but questions of theology and morality are inherently not answered by "science"). Rather Christians must hold firmly to the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1) and not be misled by hollow and deceptive philosophy based on human tradition rather than on Christ (Colossians 2:8).
Consenting adults are free to make their own lifestyle choices, but just because some people choose to live contrary to the dictates of a certain religion does not obligate that religion to redefine its doctrine to accommodate the orthodoxy of non-adherents. Churches which take God's Word seriously have always outlived those which relegate the Bible to an interesting compilation of literary antiquity.
When we reject what God has clearly said regarding marriage and human sexuality, we echo the serpent’s question to Eve in the Garden, “did God really say ‘you shall not eat from any tree’?” (Genesis 3:1).
In the context of “gay marriage,” the Bible (incl. the NT) prohibits Christians from engaging in sexual immorality; this includes homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9).
The bottom line is that we don’t reinterpret scripture’s moral exhortations in light of shifting cultural opinions, or vague invocations to “science,” because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8-9). (Caveat, we embrace science for what we can learn but questions of theology and morality are inherently not answered by "science"). Rather Christians must hold firmly to the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1) and not be misled by hollow and deceptive philosophy based on human tradition rather than on Christ (Colossians 2:8).
Consenting adults are free to make their own lifestyle choices, but just because some people choose to live contrary to the dictates of a certain religion does not obligate that religion to redefine its doctrine to accommodate the orthodoxy of non-adherents. Churches which take God's Word seriously have always outlived those which relegate the Bible to an interesting compilation of literary antiquity.
Nevertheless, you've been using scripture in an effort to 'prove' that God is anti-homosexual.
I find it fascinating to observe Christians who apparently feel threatened by Gays in the church try to hide their bigotry behind Biblical scripture. But for some strange reason, they never show me a scripture where Jesus Christ speaks out against homosexuality. Weird, right?
True. But scientific research has shown us that human sexuality exists on a natural spectrum (heterosexual - bisexual - homosexual). This means that individuals with homosexual feelings and desires were made that way. That puts the discussion of Gays and Lesbians and their place in Christianity in an entirely different light.
But if you want to sit there with a straight face and ignore the scientific facts and insist these individuals are being 'tempted by Satan' to commit 'sin', you certainly can. But please don't pretend you've somehow taken the moral high ground in this discussion because you quote me scripture.
Once upon a time the church attempted to use the Bible when it charged Galileo with heresy for ...GASP! "using science" in an attempt to change the church's long-established world view of the Earth being the center of Universe. Question: Did Galileo's "hollow and deceptive philosophy" survive? And how about the Bible? Did it overcome Galileo's crass attempt to "relegate it to an interesting compilation of literary antiquity"???
Wow, color me TOTALLY SHOCKED that you begin in responding to jts' extremely well thought, well rationed reply by insinuating that he's a gay-bashing bigot.
Where did he even say that he's "threatened" by gays? Are you now just totally making stuff up to lie about people, as you did about @fabknight when you labeled him a racist, in a strikingly similar fashion as to what you're doing now?
You know that I like you and think you're a pretty good guy, but in this thread you don't seem to be debating points in good faith. Nobody is making claims or taking positions that are bigoted in any way. IMO, this is one of the best discussions that we've had on this board and everyone has been open and sincere.
I think that depends what your definition of bigot is.
Someone may view what jt was saying as bigoted. Why?
They’re basically saying that I’m not judging you on what you do but what you’re doing is WRONG and you are SINNING.
Can you not see how someone who doesn’t see it the same way would get offended or upset?
Sorry but we're talking about living, breathing, caring PEOPLE here, not some abstract, intellectually stimulating theory.
When someone quotes me 1 Corinthians 6:9 which speaks to homosexuality being immoral, what exactly is that saying about Gay people and our 'shifting cultural opinion' as it relates to Christianity?
He may be citing scripture that is provocative in regard to this topic, but nothing he said is in any way bigoted. To say that it is would be to accuse the apostle Paul and Moses of being bigots.
Would you rather have 1 Corinthians 6:9 be excluded from the bible because it isnt compatible with your faith?
Where does blindly labeling people as bigots and racists fit into that whole love thy neighbor "faith"?
