What exactly is the middle class these days?
- Thread starter brahmanknight
- Start date
Fine. Let's throw out the complete consensus amongst every economist in the United States, on what is and isn't considered a middle class income in AMerica, and accept your idiotic narrative instead.
$400K isn't rich! You're only rich if you net $4M per year! Middle class is $300K per year!
Since you live in fantasy land, we'll tailor the debate into something you understand.
Hahaha, did that dood really agree with my completely ridiculous, sarcastic post? Hahha. He must be trolling.
Seriously - my parents grew up in the midwest. My mom was 1 of 7 kids, dad 1 of 9. Neither of my grandmothers worked. When they showed me the houses they get up in...the would be considered small by today's standards - 1500 and 1700 sqft.
They both came from average families. Back then the middle class didn't necessarily get new cars, handed down clothes, shared toys, cooked meals at home, etc.
Today people think middle class needs to eat out whenever, have 2 new cars, have boats, etc. To keep up with that, both parents work, which means they have more money, buy bigger houses driving up housing costs, etc.
Thus feeling of not being middle class is the result of all you selfish bastards thinking you need all this stuff.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Seriously - my parents grew up in the midwest. My mom was 1 of 7 kids, dad 1 of 9. Neither of my grandmothers worked. When they showed me the houses they get up in...the would be considered small by today's standards - 1500 and 1700 sqft.
They both came from average families. Back then the middle class didn't necessarily get new cars, handed down clothes, shared toys, cooked meals at home, etc.
Today people think middle class needs to eat out whenever, have 2 new cars, have boats, etc. To keep up with that, both parents work, which means they have more money, buy bigger houses driving up housing costs, etc.
Thus feeling of not being middle class is the result of all you selfish bastards thinking you need all this stuff.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I agree with 85, $300k is not middle class. You didn't have to get a mortgage with $4000 a month payments, you did it because you could afford it. Not sure what your term is, but that's a pretty nice house at the monthly mortgage for 30 years. If you can "choose" to live in luxury, even if you do have to work still, you're not middle class.
I had no idea the upper income folks had to buy a home and car equal to the income they make. Jail time if they dont comply?
I will put out what is realistic in East Orlando since that is where UCF is.
Cheapest way to live is to rent so you don't have surprise expenses like a new AC or anything like that. So to rent a 3 Bedroom house is $1,500 - $2,000 in East Orlando. We'll take the low at $1,500.
You have to have 2 cars because you can't really walk to the stores around here so we will assume 1 is paid off and 1 is modest at $250 a month.
Car insurance is $150 a month
Gas is $50 a tank x 2 tanks (1 for each car) per week so $400 a month (that seems high so we will cap it at $250 a month for gas)
Tolls most of us are sitting around $50 a month so cut that in half to $25.
Cell Phones - we all have the Cricket wireless drug dealer plan at 2 phones x $25 per line = $50 a month
Clothes - we have jobs so we have to replace an average of 1 outfit a month due to wear and tear. We are shopping at Kohls so that outfit is $40 per person per month = $80 per month plus we are going to buy the kids a new outfit each per month at $20 a kid because we shop at Old Navy and Target. Clothes are now $120 a month.
Cable and internet in our house - $50 a month we are going well below the average here.
Our kids aren't going to host or attend any birthday parties and we aren't going to give them any money for field trips or school fundraisers and won't be in any after school activities. They will be the lonely losers, but we are going for the cheapest method. We will, however, have to put them in after care because we are both working full time jobs so that is going to cost us $100 a week or $400 a month because we are using the after care at the school they attend.
During the 10 weeks of summer, my wife is going to take her 1 week of vacation and I will take my 1 week of vacation so we only have to pay for summer day care for 8 weeks which is $150 per kid per week so $2,400 for the entire summer.
We aren't going to go to church, join a gym, have any activities that require paying any memberships.
We are going to end up paying for doctor's visits and co-pays about 1 per month = $50 per month in medical scrips and appointments.
Our health insurance is $100 a week for all four of us so $400 a month.
We are not going to give any gifts at Christmas or for Birthdays, nor are we going on any vacations or any theme parks or any movies that require us to spend any money.
At the beginning of school each year, we have to buy school supplies at $75 per child (yes, it really is that expensive) they will get 1 pair of shoes, 3 pair of jeans, 5 shirts, a pack of underwear and a pack of socks. Total bill $150 each x 2 = $300.
Electricity will be as economical as we can make it and average $150 a month (that is a joke of course).
We will have no pets, buy no books (we have a library), play no video games and attend no UCF or Magic games.
With food, we get PB&J's every day for lunch, cereal for breakfast and something where we can feed the whole family for $10 for dinner. So our weekly food budget is $120 a week. We won't drink milk because that is $3.50 a gallon these days.
Once a month we will order pizza and go to Twistee Treat for our special meal. That is $30.
TLDR version
- Ultra conservative budget for family of 4 with 2 kids in Elementary or Middle school living in East Orlando
Housing - $1,500Power, Cable and Water - $225Car Related (gas, payment, tolls, insurance) - $675Cell Phones - $50Clothing - $120 per month + $300 for back to schoolFood - $510 per monthMedical - Health Insurance, copays, no dental, no braces, no glasses, no recurring meds - $450Kids After Care - $400 per month for 9 months = $3,600 per yearKids Summer Care - $2,400 per year
Total for year - $48,660.
We lose 7% to FICA and Social Security
We lose 10% to withholding.
We do our own taxes and pay exactly what we are supposed to so no refunds.
We have to earn $58,626 just to get by. That is a miserable existence too with absolutely no trappings of keeping up with the Jones'. I mean we even removed any presents for Christmas and birthdays and we do absolutely nothing but go to work and come home. We don't even own bikes and get 1 pair of shoes a year.
Cheapest way to live is to rent so you don't have surprise expenses like a new AC or anything like that. So to rent a 3 Bedroom house is $1,500 - $2,000 in East Orlando. We'll take the low at $1,500.
You have to have 2 cars because you can't really walk to the stores around here so we will assume 1 is paid off and 1 is modest at $250 a month.
Car insurance is $150 a month
Gas is $50 a tank x 2 tanks (1 for each car) per week so $400 a month (that seems high so we will cap it at $250 a month for gas)
Tolls most of us are sitting around $50 a month so cut that in half to $25.
Cell Phones - we all have the Cricket wireless drug dealer plan at 2 phones x $25 per line = $50 a month
Clothes - we have jobs so we have to replace an average of 1 outfit a month due to wear and tear. We are shopping at Kohls so that outfit is $40 per person per month = $80 per month plus we are going to buy the kids a new outfit each per month at $20 a kid because we shop at Old Navy and Target. Clothes are now $120 a month.
Cable and internet in our house - $50 a month we are going well below the average here.
Our kids aren't going to host or attend any birthday parties and we aren't going to give them any money for field trips or school fundraisers and won't be in any after school activities. They will be the lonely losers, but we are going for the cheapest method. We will, however, have to put them in after care because we are both working full time jobs so that is going to cost us $100 a week or $400 a month because we are using the after care at the school they attend.
During the 10 weeks of summer, my wife is going to take her 1 week of vacation and I will take my 1 week of vacation so we only have to pay for summer day care for 8 weeks which is $150 per kid per week so $2,400 for the entire summer.
We aren't going to go to church, join a gym, have any activities that require paying any memberships.
We are going to end up paying for doctor's visits and co-pays about 1 per month = $50 per month in medical scrips and appointments.
Our health insurance is $100 a week for all four of us so $400 a month.
We are not going to give any gifts at Christmas or for Birthdays, nor are we going on any vacations or any theme parks or any movies that require us to spend any money.
At the beginning of school each year, we have to buy school supplies at $75 per child (yes, it really is that expensive) they will get 1 pair of shoes, 3 pair of jeans, 5 shirts, a pack of underwear and a pack of socks. Total bill $150 each x 2 = $300.
Electricity will be as economical as we can make it and average $150 a month (that is a joke of course).
We will have no pets, buy no books (we have a library), play no video games and attend no UCF or Magic games.
With food, we get PB&J's every day for lunch, cereal for breakfast and something where we can feed the whole family for $10 for dinner. So our weekly food budget is $120 a week. We won't drink milk because that is $3.50 a gallon these days.
Once a month we will order pizza and go to Twistee Treat for our special meal. That is $30.
TLDR version
- Ultra conservative budget for family of 4 with 2 kids in Elementary or Middle school living in East Orlando
Housing - $1,500Power, Cable and Water - $225Car Related (gas, payment, tolls, insurance) - $675Cell Phones - $50Clothing - $120 per month + $300 for back to schoolFood - $510 per monthMedical - Health Insurance, copays, no dental, no braces, no glasses, no recurring meds - $450Kids After Care - $400 per month for 9 months = $3,600 per yearKids Summer Care - $2,400 per year
Total for year - $48,660.
We lose 7% to FICA and Social Security
We lose 10% to withholding.
We do our own taxes and pay exactly what we are supposed to so no refunds.
We have to earn $58,626 just to get by. That is a miserable existence too with absolutely no trappings of keeping up with the Jones'. I mean we even removed any presents for Christmas and birthdays and we do absolutely nothing but go to work and come home. We don't even own bikes and get 1 pair of shoes a year.
Sorry but people making $58K a year, with kids, are not "losing" 10% to witholding. They get to take advantage of very generous tax breaks and the earned income tax credit. If anything they end up not owing anything and getting a net positive from the government via these tax programs.
It might be off this topic but a person and their family are idiots if they spend that much on rent. Sorry.
Two kids at 58k get $8,000 back just for the kids. EITC on top of that. And like Joe said a family only making that much a year has no business paying $1500 a month for rent.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
You guys obviously haven't shopped for a place to rent in East Orlando.
And sorry, I didn't do their taxes. I didn't have an HR block guy on the phone with me when I was filling out this philosophical family.
Of course this same philosophical family won't be around long enough because their lack of a life will cause either mom or dad to stab (not shoot, they can't afford a gun) their whole family.
But yes, your idea that a family of 4 can live comfortably on $40k a year is just as realistic as Sir G's $300k a year fantasy. But I know that you guys all spend $5k a year on living expenses, $10k on your UCF Athletics donation and make $200k a year so you don't have to worry about it. Just go back to banging your super model wives.
And sorry, I didn't do their taxes. I didn't have an HR block guy on the phone with me when I was filling out this philosophical family.
Of course this same philosophical family won't be around long enough because their lack of a life will cause either mom or dad to stab (not shoot, they can't afford a gun) their whole family.
But yes, your idea that a family of 4 can live comfortably on $40k a year is just as realistic as Sir G's $300k a year fantasy. But I know that you guys all spend $5k a year on living expenses, $10k on your UCF Athletics donation and make $200k a year so you don't have to worry about it. Just go back to banging your super model wives.
Where did you get that from? You get a deduction for each kid, but I'll assume you know the difference between a deduction and a credit. Child tax credit is $1k per kid. I don't know that 58K would get you any EITC.
Anyone that thinks tax breaks or credits for kids even comes close to paying for what it costs to raise a child is out of their mind. I've got three kids and no day care and our kids cost us a fortune. We do not go overboard on things either. We eat out maybe once or twice a month, kids are only in one sport/activity at a time. But between eating out, groceries, one vacation a year, sports/activities, field trips, new clothes and shoes (kids grow, so new clothes and shoes are a necessity) it adds up quick.
Yes you could buy all your clothes at goodwill, never go out to eat, never go on vacation and never allow you kids to do any activities, but I'd say all those things should be reasonable for a "middle class" person to afford.
Middle class is a relative term. The buying power of someone that is single versus dink versus one or two or three kids is a huge difference.
Again, we are talking middle class decent neighborhood with decent school. For that, $1,000 - $1,500 is right. $2,000 is a little bit high.
I am more interested to see what net worth looks like this decade versus the previous 2. My guess is the flow-through isn't there and people took huge hits in net worth that haven't made it back even with a good stock market along with property values coming back to 90s level for the most part.
There are credits and deductions with kids. They would have paid about $8000 in withholding throughout the year so they get that back with the EITC and kids credit and dependent deduction.
$5548 for EITC with two kids
$2000 for Child Tax Credit
$7300 Deduction for two dependents.
2014 Tax Year
Earned Income and adjusted gross income (AGI) must each be less than:$46,997 ($52,427 married filing jointly) with three or more qualifying children$43,756 ($49,186 married filing jointly) with two qualifying children$38,511 ($43,941 married filing jointly) with one qualifying child$14,590 ($20,020 married filing jointly) with no qualifying children
Our mythical family made $58 with 2, they get nothing.
According to Tax Estimator, with $5,800 withheld for income tax, they will get $4,200 back and no EITC.
Here it is for you from Zillow.com, properties available for rent in 32828 with 3 bedrooms (our mythical family's requirement with a son and a daughter) I did townhomes and single family homes in the search. Apartments in 32828 are either rent subsidized Section 8 or they are crazy expensive so I threw them out because either side skews the results.
http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/Orange-County-FL-32828/house,townhouse_type/72252_rid/3-_beds/paymenta_sort/28.593264,-81.055326,28.465522,-81.278486_rect/12_zm/
Range is from $1,250 for a townhome to $1,750 (look at that $1,500 is right in the middle) during January which is notoriously the slow time of the year for residential real estate.
Not really, Whata. The center is associated with UNC-Chapel Hill and only available for faculty or medical folks who work at the university or the hospital. Its certainly a very good daycare center with excellent teachers and curriculum, but definitely not swanky.
$1500 in east Orlando is a truly horrible deal.
I used to rent a 2,200 sq ft house in Oviedo for $950 a month. And it was only 5 minutes from 417 for commuting.
I used to rent a 2,200 sq ft house in Oviedo for $950 a month. And it was only 5 minutes from 417 for commuting.
That's fine, what about New York, Charlotte or any part of the world not named Orlando. Go to Long Island you might find a decent 3/2, 1,500 square feet around $3,000 a month. Now add state income taxes, tolls, city taxes and God knows what else. I guess if you never move five miles away from UCF that might be your view.
How long ago? Prices jumped on rents with the foreclosure boom. Though not blanket across the board, East Orlando homes will be newer than Oviedo as well. And sure, you can get a place in Apopka for less and Winter Garden, etc. The more urban, typically the higher the rent based on the convenience of amenities.
Quality of schools have a bearing on it. The 32828 "shit hole" has the top ranked schools at every level with the top high school, top 2 middles and 4 out of the top 10 elementary schools including the 3 of the top 4. So you do pay for that as well, but it is the residential zip closest to UCF which since this is a UCF message board, we all know it and can relate to it.
So, I take it that most of you are starting to realize that our "middle-class" is garbage. Well, except Bob, because he thinks everyone should live in a trailer for $250 a month and buy Wal-Mart brand everything.
Now you just need to come to the realization that Republican policies are what got us here.
Now you just need to come to the realization that Republican policies are what got us here.
Let me guess: you think the entire cauuse of this is the meanie Reagan tax breaks, which relieved this country of the Soviet-esque tax rates of 80%, and was drafted and passed by a Democratic congress. Right?
Exactly what awesome Clinton policies did we abandon in the recent years to cause this?
Obama and the Dems had a supermajority for 2 entire years. Why didn't they undo the meanie Republican policies if they were hurting everyone?
You can't have a debate without crying about Republicans and calling others racists.
Chemmie, the definition of middle class is a joke. Depending on where you live middle class can mean a lot of different things. My admin makes $65,000 a year, she lives in New York and I promise you she is not living what our parents called middle class lives.
Fact is, your moronic leadership has tried like hell to tell everyone how great the economy is doing without looking at the actual cost of living. They keep saying there is no inflation yet have no clue that groceries alone have gone up 35% over the past three years.
Fact is, your moronic leadership has tried like hell to tell everyone how great the economy is doing without looking at the actual cost of living. They keep saying there is no inflation yet have no clue that groceries alone have gone up 35% over the past three years.
Entire cause? No. A significant cause? Yes.
What else could explain the drastic change in wealth equality in the U.S. that started in the early 80's? Is there something else that caused this?
I will answer the question, though. Reagan's enormous tax cuts, deregulation, globalization and elimination of protected tariffs, relaxed labor laws and the destruction of organized labor, and a complete move from a production-based economy to a service-based economy, are all to blame! These policies have been supported by Republicans and Democrats alike.
We now have all the empirical evidence we need to prove Reagan's tax cuts, and other conservative policies, have failed the middle class. It is time to start rolling back and giving more power to the typical, middle-class, American who has had it stripped away during the last 40-or so years.
chemmie, you're so full of shit yet again.
Your implication here is that "if only' we started taxing those rich assholes at 60-70% again on top marginal income, we'd have a BOOM! of revenue that we could re-direct into the mouths of the middle class and all would be solved. HAPPY TIMES IN THE USA, AGAIN!
Your implication: tax more = more revenue = bigger middle class
Except you ignore the fact that we are already running historic revenues when inflation adjusted. Do you get that? In the history of the US, when adjusting for inflation, we are running the biggest revenue receipts in HISTORY.
So why then were people so much "better" yeras ago if statistically we are collecting more than EVER, spending more than EVER, and re-directing more than EVER into social welfare accounts?
Also, the assertion that meanie Reagan steered the entire world into "globalization" is a hilarious load of bullshit. You know what caused globalization? These 2 countries called China and India, who suddenly adopted market based economies in the early-mid 90's, and saw record historic economic growth.
I guess your stance is that Reagan should have simply bombed both into oblivion. If neither country grows economically and has domestic capability for new jobs, then we would still have guys from Ohio plugging in in widgets on production lines!
From an economimc perspective, your argument is routinely childish and simple minded. You cannot, or refuse to, grasp the much deeper economic factors in play. Everything is the fault of meanie Republicans, tax breaks, and having less blood sucking unions around!
Your implication here is that "if only' we started taxing those rich assholes at 60-70% again on top marginal income, we'd have a BOOM! of revenue that we could re-direct into the mouths of the middle class and all would be solved. HAPPY TIMES IN THE USA, AGAIN!
Your implication: tax more = more revenue = bigger middle class
Except you ignore the fact that we are already running historic revenues when inflation adjusted. Do you get that? In the history of the US, when adjusting for inflation, we are running the biggest revenue receipts in HISTORY.
So why then were people so much "better" yeras ago if statistically we are collecting more than EVER, spending more than EVER, and re-directing more than EVER into social welfare accounts?
Also, the assertion that meanie Reagan steered the entire world into "globalization" is a hilarious load of bullshit. You know what caused globalization? These 2 countries called China and India, who suddenly adopted market based economies in the early-mid 90's, and saw record historic economic growth.
I guess your stance is that Reagan should have simply bombed both into oblivion. If neither country grows economically and has domestic capability for new jobs, then we would still have guys from Ohio plugging in in widgets on production lines!
From an economimc perspective, your argument is routinely childish and simple minded. You cannot, or refuse to, grasp the much deeper economic factors in play. Everything is the fault of meanie Republicans, tax breaks, and having less blood sucking unions around!
Do you just get so butthurt that you can't even think straight?
Seriously, I need to figure out how you can write so much, but say so little.
1. I gave seven reasons why I believe we have a shitty middle-class today, and you might have acknowledged one of them. Instead, you created a straw man about wanting 60-70% rates on top of marginal income.
2. Then you made a point that has no relevancy, that we have record tax receipts today. We also have record amounts of wealth today, and most of that wealth is sitting in the upper-class, who still do pay more tax. That money isn't creating jobs, therefore you are nowhere near addressing any point I may have.
3. Your point about Reagan and globalization is just more butthurt. I didn't blame Reagan for that. I said globalization was a reason for our current shrinking middle-class. If anything, Clinton had more to do with it by signing NAFTA, and supporting China into the WTO and giving them "most favored nation" status.
4. The rest of your post is nonsense and more hyperbole.
So, since my reasons are so wrong, please tell me your reasons for the drastic change in wealth disparity starting around 1980? ...and then tell me how it has nothing to do with Reagan.
Stop getting so butthurt every time you post and try to write something that takes thought, and possibly uses supporting evidence to back up.
The reasons the earnings are going to the top is because the jobs that are replacing all those jobs lost over the past decade are part time/minimum wage type jobs. Guess what is driving that?
Consider the source. Typical liberal who thinks the worlds problems can be solved by a text book.
Chemmie, did you ever consider the amount of degreed professionals rapidly increasing the past 35 years pushing out the union type jobs requiring no education and making 6 figures with OT? Those jobs have disssolved via automation and you have a smaller pool of educated people making more money.
1. I acknowleged most of them, you just chose to ignore it.
2. No relevancy? LMAO. You can't make a point and keep your story straight. Is, or is it not, your contention that we must tax those evil rich people more to create "more revenue" to shovel into the middle class ranks to fix all of the ills in the nation?
3. Guess you'll have to forgive me for not assuming you could midly critique a Democratic politician, since you've managed to do this roughly 2 times on this board, total. But you still don't get it. Clinton didn't have anything to do with globalization either. Again: when China and India decided to unleash market based reforms for their 1B+ populations EACH, that is what tipped the scale in favor of a globalized economy and globalized demand for jobs.
Did you really expect market booms amongst 2/5 of the entire world population to have no impact on the remedial jobs we took for granted in the US?
The wealth disparity is not nearly as "damaging" as you want us to believe and it's completely explainable. As I already pointed out, rich people by and large havce most of their money in equities. As the world economy grew, companies were able to expand their reach and drive up sahre prices, with the total backing of our Federal Reserve who made cheap money the normal. At the same time, those "middle class" jobs that Americans took for granted and assumed would last forever suddenly started moving to countries who could do the same work for less money. We as a people got extremely complacent, lazy, and the end result were millions of uneducated people who had nothing to offer in the new economy, where tech and data driven jobs outweigh turning widgets.
chemmie thinks that only the US should have good jobs.
Who are the Indians to make something more of themselves? We're 'Mericans!
You're right- he is a xenophobic bigot. And he seems to be really racist against Asian people.
