Another school shooting

[sk8knight]

Oh FFS, Really? Seriously? In 39 states you can buy at gun shows or online without a background check and with no proof of ID.

And don't come back at me with "it's a private sale." Please save yourself the time.

I'm still LMAO at the cartoon.

You cannot buy from a dealer at a gun show or online without a background check in any state. For online sales, you have to go to a gun shop where they check your ID and run a background check.

There are private sales at gun shows but the law states that they have to know you or be related to you. They maintain transitional liability and it is still illegal for them to transfer to a minor or prohibited person.

I’m sorry that the truth is inconvenient but you just cannot go to a store, online or not, and purchase a firearm without a background check.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

You cannot buy from a dealer at a gun show or online without a background check in any state. For online sales, you have to go to a gun shop where they check your ID and run a background check.

There are private sales at gun shows but the law states that they have to know you or be related to you. They maintain transitional liability and it is still illegal for them to transfer to a minor or prohibited person.

I’m sorry that the truth is inconvenient but you just cannot go to a store, online or not, and purchase a firearm without a background check.

When Are Background Checks Required?​

Whichever term you prefer, or even if you think the loophole doesn’t exist, the phrase represents a real phenomenon under federal law: Not every gun sale is preceded by a background check.

The laws vary, but in most states private sellers only break the law if they knowingly sell to a prohibited person.

For example, Nelson is not supposed to sell a gun to convicted felons, or to people who live outside of Oklahoma. He doesn’t, however, legally have to ask about those things.

In the absence of required formal background checks, Nelson, a retired police officer and Air Force veteran, said he developed his own system to judge who to sell his guns to. If they look younger than 21, for instance, or if they look “thuggish,” he says he won’t sell.

Please educate yourself: https://gunsandamerica.org/story/19/01/29/what-the-so-called-gun-show-loophole-really-looks-like/

 

[hemightbejeremy]

You cannot buy from a dealer at a gun show or online without a background check in any state. For online sales, you have to go to a gun shop where they check your ID and run a background check.

There are private sales at gun shows but the law states that they have to know you or be related to you. They maintain transitional liability and it is still illegal for them to transfer to a minor or prohibited person.

I’m sorry that the truth is inconvenient but you just cannot go to a store, online or not, and purchase a firearm without a background check.

Transitional liability? Is that a term you made up? I’ve never heard of it. So you are saying a private seller is liable for crimes committed by the person they sold a gun to?

 

[sk8knight]

Transitional liability? Is that a term you made up? I’ve never heard of it. So you are saying a private seller is liable for crimes committed by the person they sold a gun to?

If they should have know that he was a prohibited possessor, or did know and sold it anyways, then I believe that answer is yes. Just like they’ve wring up strawman purchasers for aiding and abetting.

 

[sk8knight]

When Are Background Checks Required?​

Whichever term you prefer, or even if you think the loophole doesn’t exist, the phrase represents a real phenomenon under federal law: Not every gun sale is preceded by a background check.

The laws vary, but in most states private sellers only break the law if they knowingly sell to a prohibited person.

For example, Nelson is not supposed to sell a gun to convicted felons, or to people who live outside of Oklahoma. He doesn’t, however, legally have to ask about those things.

In the absence of required formal background checks, Nelson, a retired police officer and Air Force veteran, said he developed his own system to judge who to sell his guns to. If they look younger than 21, for instance, or if they look “thuggish,” he says he won’t sell.

Please educate yourself: https://gunsandamerica.org/story/19/01/29/what-the-so-called-gun-show-loophole-really-looks-like/

That is not a store. That is a private sale. And “not supposed to” is actually federally illegal to sell to convicted felons and people that live outside of the state. These laws don’t vary, they’re federal laws. All states follow them and enforce them. Some states go beyond the federal laws.

Also, Nelson certainly appears to be acting as a dealer without a license. This is a federal felony. You cannot be in the business of selling guns without a license. Oh, what, the anti-gun propaganda article didn’t mention that law?

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

That is not a store. That is a private sale. And “not supposed to” is actually federally illegal to sell to convicted felons and people that live outside of the state. These laws don’t vary, they’re federal laws. All states follow them and enforce them. Some states go beyond the federal laws.

Also, Nelson certainly appears to be acting as a dealer without a license. This is a federal felony. You cannot be in the business of selling guns without a license. Oh, what, the anti-gun propaganda article didn’t mention that law?

You're having a hard time with this, I see. All over a cartoon that I guess got you riled up. I am very sorry if you can't see through all of this and that you'd rather pick fly shit out of the pepper. I already told you not to come back with the private sale stuff. I am still LMAO at the cartoon, regardless...

And LMMFAO about the "anti-gun article." You mean the same article that acknowledges "Studies have generally found some evidence that universal background checks help reduce gun violence, but the research is less than compelling. Recent research found that over 10 years, universal background checks had no effect on gun homicide or suicide rates in the state of California." That one? You skip over that part?

 

[sk8knight]

You're having a hard time with this, I see. All over a cartoon that I guess got you riled up. I am very sorry if you can't see through all of this and that you'd rather pick fly shit out of the pepper. I already told you not to come back with the private sale stuff. I am still LMAO at the cartoon, regardless...

And LMMFAO about the "anti-gun article." You mean the same article that acknowledges "Studies have generally found some evidence that universal background checks help reduce gun violence, but the research is less than compelling. Recent research found that over 10 years, universal background checks had no effect on gun homicide or suicide rates in the state of California." That one? You skip over that part?

Yeah, I did miss that part. You’re also right that I’m too invested in this conversation. I really wanted to see what ideas we had outside of the polarized gun debate but we keep coming back to that. So I guess I’m out then.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Just for reference, a single web forum for a single state has over 100K+ members selling millions of firearms and accessories with zero background checks.

The Outdoors Trader

Firearms and outdoors related discussion with free and very active classifieds section! Forums for guns, hunting, fishing, class iii weapons, and much more!

www.theoutdoorstrader.com

 

[goodknightfl]

Like I said, I’m in favor of an older restriction for purchase. I think it’s up to the states, though, and I think that we need to be careful about possession restrictions. There are Alaskan teens whose families need them to hunt in order for survival. A federal restriction on possession would get in the way of that.

make cell phones and video games illegal until 21 too.

Transitional liability? Is that a term you made up? I’ve never heard of it. So you are saying a private seller is liable for crimes committed by the person they sold a gun to?

makes sense if you sell a car and a buyer kills some one with it you should be liable. *

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

make cell phones and video games illegal until 21 too.

makes sense if you sell a car and a buyer kills some one with it you should be liable. *

Brain but not lung functions impaired after a chlorine incident - PubMed

A workplace bleach exposure incident was studied in 13 women to determine whether chlorine caused neurobehavioral and pulmonary functional effects. We compared neurophysiological and neuropsychological measurements in 13 chlorine-exposed women, 4.5 years after exposure, and 41 unexposed women...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In sum, you're stupid because of your extended exposure to pool chorline. Chlorine bleach exposure was associated with impaired neurobehavioral functions and elevated POMS scores and symptom frequencies. Alternatives to chlorine should be used.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

make cell phones and video games illegal until 21 too.

makes sense if you sell a car and a buyer kills some one with it you should be liable. *

A car is made to transport people.
A gun is made to kill things.

 

[KnighttimeJoe]

A car is made to transport people.
A gun is made to kill things.

It really isn't even cute any longer. This goofy pool cleaner needs to stop posting.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Brain but not lung functions impaired after a chlorine incident - PubMed

A workplace bleach exposure incident was studied in 13 women to determine whether chlorine caused neurobehavioral and pulmonary functional effects. We compared neurophysiological and neuropsychological measurements in 13 chlorine-exposed women, 4.5 years after exposure, and 41 unexposed women...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In sum, you're stupid because of your extended exposure to pool chorline. Chlorine bleach exposure was associated with impaired neurobehavioral functions and elevated POMS scores and symptom frequencies. Alternatives to chlorine should be used.

Damn, makes sense why goodknight is a moron even by boomer standards.

He got the standard boomer dose of lead poisoning from breathing in leaded gasoline fumes during his formative years, resulting in lowered IQ.

Then huffing chlorine made him even dumber. A moron among morons.

 

[DaShuckster]

Participation Awards = Kids not taught how to cope with defeat
Video Game Counsels (imbalance) = Reset Buttons, careless decision making has no consequences
Violent Movie / Music Culture = Glorifies Violence, mistreatment of women, drugs, disrespect for authority, etc.
Extreme Violent games = Desensitized behavior / emotions.
Uber-Litigious and Sensitive Society: Anyone who observes a red flag dare not do anything which may offend someone's child.
...I'd start here.

I'm not going to discount the influence that our gun-loving entertainment culture has on people. But ironically, it's influence goes to the purchase of deadly guns.

But other countries have violent movies and games too. Why are these non-stop mass murders happening in the United States and not in Japan -- the king of violent video games -- or other countries?

The notion that the proliferation of deadly guns has no role in what we're experiencing is preposterous. It's like Ted Cruz opining that THE REAL PROBLEM with mass murders at schools is.....(drumroll)....unlocked back doors.

 

[Ucfmikes]

But other countries have violent movies and games too. Why are these non-stop mass murders happening in the United States and not in Japan -- the king of violent video games -- or other countries?

Japan Shuck? Really? Americans are way more violent by nature, than the Japanese. Especially post WW-2.

Also, can 18 year-olds get AR-15s in Japan so easily?

 

[NinjaKnight]

I'm not going to discount the influence that our gun-loving entertainment culture has on people. But ironically, it's influence goes to the purchase of deadly guns.

But other countries have violent movies and games too. Why are these non-stop mass murders happening in the United States and not in Japan -- the king of violent video games -- or other countries?

The notion that the proliferation of deadly guns has no role in what we're experiencing is preposterous. It's like Ted Cruz opining that THE REAL PROBLEM with mass murders at schools is.....(drumroll)....unlocked back doors.

Huh. I guess we should poll the millions of schools in the rest of the civilized world and ask how they keep their back doors locked, when America (the greatest country on Earth) can't figure it out and keeps getting kids slaughtered.

 

[DaShuckster]

Japan Shuck? Really? Americans are way more violent by nature, than the Japanese. Especially post WW-2.

My point is we get the same old lame excuses about mentally-ill people...and violent video games....and violent movies and TV shows....as the REAL issue behind mass murders. But America isn't the only country with mentally ill people and violent entertainment. Yet for some strange reason this stuff happens in the USA, the place with more guns than any other country in the world.

 

[Ucfmikes]

My point is we get the same old lame excuses about mentally-ill people...and violent video games....and violent movies and TV shows....as the REAL issue behind mass murders. But America isn't the only country with mentally ill people and violent entertainment. Yet for some strange reason this stuff happens in the USA, the place with more guns than any other country in the world.

It’s a multifactorial problem. Guns are the #1 problem, but to fix this problem entirely we will also have to address several other issues at least, because banning guns will not be 100% foolproof. Just like rarely a mass murder occurs in the UK

 

[DaShuckster]

People ask what steps we could take to begin to curb gun violence. Raise the age to purchase guns to 21 years of age.

Look at all these crazy mass murderers. A sizeable number of them were current or recent high schoolers. Taking this common sense step seems like a no-brainer.

 

[NinjaKnight]

. Taking this common sense step seems like a no-brainer.

Well there's your problem: you expect literal cult members to use common sense.

This isn't the political divide of the past, like in the 90's when we were able to get a common sense AWB passed between the left and right. Today's political scene is far closer to 1930's Germany.

 

[NinjaKnight]

 

[sk8knight]

A car is made to transport people.
A gun is made to kill things.

You may have civil liability if you lend your car to someone and they drive recklessly and cause an accident. I thought this was called transitional liability but the legal term is negligent entrustment.

You have civil liability if you give a gun to, or fail to secure a gun properly around, a person who intends to use it to directly or in a manner to cause harm to others.

What Is Negligent Entrustment? | LaBovick Law Group

As Florida gun sales spike, the legal doctrine of negligent entrustment is more timely than ever. But what is it? Keep reading to find out.

www.labovick.com

 

[DaShuckster]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present America

Doesn't that Youtube video say it all?

Cigarettes? You look twelve. No way!
Alcohol? Think again, kid!
Lottery Ticket? Nope! You're not old enough.

Shotgun? YOU BETCHA!!! Step right up, kid!!!!

 

[NinjaKnight]

Doesn't that Youtube video say it all?

Cigarettes? You look twelve. No way!
Alcohol? Think again, kid!
Lottery Ticket? Nope! You're not old enough.

Shotgun? YOU BETCHA!!! Step right up, kid!!!!

We are the laughing stock of the world.

 

[goodknightfl]

Brain but not lung functions impaired after a chlorine incident - PubMed

A workplace bleach exposure incident was studied in 13 women to determine whether chlorine caused neurobehavioral and pulmonary functional effects. We compared neurophysiological and neuropsychological measurements in 13 chlorine-exposed women, 4.5 years after exposure, and 41 unexposed women...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In sum, you're stupid because of your extended exposure to pool chorline. Chlorine bleach exposure was associated with impaired neurobehavioral functions and elevated POMS scores and symptom frequencies. Alternatives to chlorine should be used.

In case you didn't see it is called sarcasm. Thus the *.
If any legal dealer obeys the laws and sells a legal product, obeying the laws for that sale, they should not be liable for what the buyer does with that product. Not guns, not cars, not candy bars. Now if you wish to toughen the laws on private sales of guns, I am ok with it. First limit the # of sales a private seller can do in a year without a license. That one thing would reduce the problem greatly. Improve the insta check system and require private sellers who sell more than x# of guns per year to use it.

 

[NinjaKnight]

In case you didn't see it is called sarcasm. Thus the *.
If any legal dealer obeys the laws and sells a legal product, obeying the laws for that sale, they should not be liable for what the buyer does with that product. Not guns, not cars, not candy bars. Now if you wish to toughen the laws on private sales of guns, I am ok with it. First limit the # of sales a private seller can do in a year without a license. That one thing would reduce the problem greatly. Improve the insta check system and require private sellers who sell more than x# of guns per year to use it.

Holy shit you are even dumber than I previously thought. No shit you were sarcastic, you stupid useless ****. Everyone understood you were attempting what your pathetic idiotic self thought was cleverness. Your point was idiotic, and easily debunked by Jeremy.

How do you manage to survive on a day-to-day basis? You must have a permanent live in care taker. Whatever you are paying them, I assure you it isn't enough.

 

[sk8knight]

In case you didn't see it is called sarcasm. Thus the *.
If any legal dealer obeys the laws and sells a legal product, obeying the laws for that sale, they should not be liable for what the buyer does with that product. Not guns, not cars, not candy bars. Now if you wish to toughen the laws on private sales of guns, I am ok with it. First limit the # of sales a private seller can do in a year without a license. That one thing would reduce the problem greatly. Improve the insta check system and require private sellers who sell more than x# of guns per year to use it.

I’m fine with background checks for all purchases unless the person is a family member or personally known to the individual. I.e. not someone who just walked up to you at a gun show. But, like you said, the instacheck system needs to be able to support it.

A healthy number of the gun control laws being pushed include an aspect of liability for gun manufacturers. This would largely destroy the civilian gun industry in this country and be a boon to foreign producers.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

I’m fine with background checks for all purchases unless the person is a family member or personally known to the individual. I.e. not someone who just walked up to you at a gun show. But, like you said, the instacheck system needs to be able to support it.

A healthy number of the gun control laws being pushed include an aspect of liability for gun manufacturers. This would largely destroy the civilian gun industry in this country and be a boon to foreign producers.

Is the exemption from liability due to the nature of the product? If a toy kills people, the toy company is liable. But if a gun kills people the gun company is not liable. Because, duh, that’s the purpose of a gun in the first place. I’m not even sure how the liability aspect would work.

 

[sk8knight]

Is the exemption from liability due to the nature of the product? If a toy kills people, the toy company is liable. But if a gun kills people the gun company is not liable. Because, duh, that’s the purpose of a gun in the first place. I’m not even sure how the liability aspect would work.

If the toy is a manufacturer’s defect, then the company may be liable. Or if there is a design flaw inherent and they didn’t provide a warning.

Guns have a warning on them when you buy them the first time and rarely have design or manufacturing flaws that cause injury. More than that, almost every single person above the age of 10 in the world knows that pulling the trigger of a firearm results in deadly particles coming out of the barrel.

Should we be able to sue a nail gun manufacturer if someone used it to kill people? Or a Louisville Slugger? Or a Chicago Cutlery? Or an automaker for Kenosha or Charlottesville?

 

[hemightbejeremy]

If the toy is a manufacturer’s defect, then the company may be liable. Or if there is a design flaw inherent and they didn’t provide a warning.

Guns have a warning on them when you buy them the first time and rarely have design or manufacturing flaws that cause injury. More than that, almost every single person above the age of 10 in the world knows that pulling the trigger of a firearm results in deadly particles coming out of the barrel.

Should we be able to sue a nail gun manufacturer if someone used it to kill people? Or a Louisville Slugger? Or a Chicago Cutlery? Or an automaker for Kenosha or Charlottesville?

Yes. We can sue anybody for anything.

 

[UCFloridaTech]

Doesn't that Youtube video say it all?

Cigarettes? You look twelve. No way!
Alcohol? Think again, kid!
Lottery Ticket? Nope! You're not old enough.

Shotgun? YOU BETCHA!!! Step right up, kid!!!!

We agree kids shouldn't be acquiring guns.

But, we need to be smarter than "banning all guns". Look how well the war on drugs is going. Need to be focused on the drivers of abuse, not the substance... Starts at home, need a much more disciplined and respectful culture.

And for those that want to be independent thinkers, documentaries are up there with Maddow and Tucker news reports...easily skewed.

 

[DaShuckster]

We agree kids shouldn't be acquiring guns. But...

Always a "but."

....we need to be smarter than "banning all guns".

Always the same old arguments. Who is saying ban all guns? What I'm hearing from posters here is that we can ban kids from buying guns until they turn 21. And why not ban assault rifles like the AR-15? I've yet to hear anyone explain why the general public needs them.

Starts at home, need a much more disciplined and respectful culture.

Oooooookay. Good luck with that.

 

[sk8knight]

Yes. We can sue anybody for anything.

It sure does seem that way.

 

[DaShuckster]

Yes. We can sue anybody for anything.

Not exactly. Thanks in large part to the NRA lobby, Congress passed a law in 2005 that gave the gun industry a special legal shield from lawsuits

Who says we have a toothless, do-nothing Congress?*

 

[sk8knight]

Not exactly. Thanks in large part to the NRA lobby, Congress passed a law in 2005 that gave the gun industry a special legal shield from lawsuits

Who says we have a toothless, do-nothing Congress?*

As well they should have. It was ridiculous that they were getting threatened with lawsuits for every use of their weapon, even in a fully justified defensive use of force. You would instantly cripple the industry just through lawyers fees.

If we want to legislatively end the industry, fine. But we must not do through spurious legal action that which should be done through legislative action.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

You may have civil liability if you lend your car to someone and they drive recklessly and cause an accident. I thought this was called transitional liability but the legal term is negligent entrustment.

You have civil liability if you give a gun to, or fail to secure a gun properly around, a person who intends to use it to directly or in a manner to cause harm to others.

What Is Negligent Entrustment? | LaBovick Law Group

As Florida gun sales spike, the legal doctrine of negligent entrustment is more timely than ever. But what is it? Keep reading to find out.

www.labovick.com

This is different that what we were discussing. We were discussing the liability of someone who sold a gun without performing a background check. Obviously if you are negligent with your own possession you could have some form of liability.

 

[sk8knight]

This is different that what we were discussing. We were discussing the liability of someone who sold a gun without performing a background check. Obviously if you are negligent with your own possession you could have some form of liability.

If you are a dealer, you committed a felony and will lose your license and you may have civil liability if you sold the weapon to someone who shouldn’t have had it. If you are a private seller, and you sell to someone that you don’t know, you’re taking a risk that some lawyer or prosecutor is going to come after you.

 

[hemightbejeremy]

If you are a dealer, you committed a felony and will lose your license and you may have civil liability if you sold the weapon to someone who shouldn’t have had it. If you are a private seller, and you sell to someone that you don’t know, you’re taking a risk that some lawyer or prosecutor is going to come after you.

That’s not what the link says. It says if you knowingly provided a gun to someone who wasn’t legally allowed to own it.

 

[DaShuckster]

As well they should have. It was ridiculous that they were getting threatened with lawsuits for every use of their weapon, even in a fully justified defensive use of force. You would instantly cripple the industry just through lawyers fees.

If we want to legislatively end the industry, fine. But we must not do through spurious legal action that which should be done through legislative action.

McDonalds can be sued when some jerk spills a cup of their hot coffee in his lap in the drive-thru lane...but it's "ridiculous" that gun manufacturers who deliberately market their guns to teenagers with macho-military themed advertising might...gasp!...risk a lawsuit...when one mows down a bunch of helpless school kids to a bloody pulp with one of their assault rifles? Gosh, perish the thought!!!

Tell me, what does a teenager need an AR-15 for?

 

[sk8knight]

That’s not what the link says. It says if you knowingly provided a gun to someone who wasn’t legally allowed to own it.

Right. Or if you should’ve known that person was an illegal possessor. But trials are decided by juries and plain letter won’t stop someone from using the arguments that you all like to make in court. Such as: it’s a gun, of course the person was going to use it for a harmful purpose. If they weren’t, they’d have bought the gun from a dealer and gone through a background check.

Since we’re so hung up on the gun show “loophole,” have you ever looked up the statistics on how many gun show purchases have actually been used in criminal activity? You might be surprised.