DOW back over 25,000

Crazyhole

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That is what would normally happen when our central bank is flooding our markets with currency just to keep stocks afloat for their billionaire buddies.
Funny how no matter what they try, they can't rid themselves of free market fundamentals.
 

Retnuhrace

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I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I’m not happy to see the stock market booming. I think it’s a great indictment on the flaws of our greedy capitalist society that, during a worldwide pandemic when thousands of people are dying and millions are negatively impacted, that many of these big businesses are thriving.
 
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sk8knight

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I’m sure I’m in the minority, but I’m not happy to see the stock market booming. I think it’s a great indictment on the flaws of our greedy capitalist society that, during a worldwide pandemic when thousands of people are dying and millions are negatively impacted, that many of these big businesses are thriving.
I don't think that there's a need to pass a moral judgement here nor do I think that it's healthy to look at the stock moral scale.

There are a number of businesses that have experienced an uptick from their business model being suited perfectly to the environment. That doesn't mean that they are somehow predatory and taking advantage of sick people. Aside from the worries that have been stated on this board about the sustainability of such gains, having businesses that show stronger stockholder value may help maintain jobs, consumer spending, business growth in a period where a bear market would pile onto the hardships.

While it's true that the largest share of stocks are held by the "rich", you also have to look beyond that to see all of the groups that are invested in the stock market that you would consider middle class or even poor. On average, public employee pension funds invest 60% of their portfolio in the stock market. 40% of households earning 22k - 49k are invested in the market. That number goes up to 60% of households earning 50k-90k per year.

It's just not as simple as the "corporations are profiting while people are struggling" emotional appeal makes it sound and falling into that trap only leads to bad ends.
 
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Crazyhole

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It's worth noting that the DOW reindexed earlier this year. It got rid of Exxon, Raytheon, and Pfizer and added 3 companies with higher ticker prices so 30k isn't exactly apples to apples from what it would have been had we hit that point last 3.
 

chemmie

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I don't think that there's a need to pass a moral judgement here nor do I think that it's healthy to look at the stock moral scale.

There are a number of businesses that have experienced an uptick from their business model being suited perfectly to the environment. That doesn't mean that they are somehow predatory and taking advantage of sick people. Aside from the worries that have been stated on this board about the sustainability of such gains, having businesses that show stronger stockholder value may help maintain jobs, consumer spending, business growth in a period where a bear market would pile onto the hardships.

While it's true that the largest share of stocks are held by the "rich", you also have to look beyond that to see all of the groups that are invested in the stock market that you would consider middle class or even poor. On average, public employee pension funds invest 60% of their portfolio in the stock market. 40% of households earning 22k - 49k are invested in the market. That number goes up to 60% of households earning 50k-90k per year.

It's just not as simple as the "corporations are profiting while people are struggling" emotional appeal makes it sound and falling into that trap only leads to bad ends.
$3 Trillion deficit.
Taxes for the highest earners were already low, and recently dropped lower.
0% interest rates.
Corporations STILL sitting on mountains of cash.
40 years of stagnant wages for over 90% of the population.

I seriously don't know how you can have the wool pulled over your eyes even more than it is now. Every economic decision in this country is made to the benefit of those whom are already ultra-wealthy, and most often at the expense of the large majority of the population.
 

ElprofesorJuan

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I don't think that there's a need to pass a moral judgement here nor do I think that it's healthy to look at the stock moral scale.

There are a number of businesses that have experienced an uptick from their business model being suited perfectly to the environment. That doesn't mean that they are somehow predatory and taking advantage of sick people. Aside from the worries that have been stated on this board about the sustainability of such gains, having businesses that show stronger stockholder value may help maintain jobs, consumer spending, business growth in a period where a bear market would pile onto the hardships.

While it's true that the largest share of stocks are held by the "rich", you also have to look beyond that to see all of the groups that are invested in the stock market that you would consider middle class or even poor. On average, public employee pension funds invest 60% of their portfolio in the stock market. 40% of households earning 22k - 49k are invested in the market. That number goes up to 60% of households earning 50k-90k per year.

It's just not as simple as the "corporations are profiting while people are struggling" emotional appeal makes it sound and falling into that trap only leads to bad ends.
No your numbers are way off ..How do i Know used to make 22000 no way those people invest in stockmarket. I only invested when i hit 40,000 plus...When you make less than 30,000 ypu only think aboit paying bills. Plus many companies do nor offer Stock options. McDonald's anf others come to mind...
 

sk8knight

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No your numbers are way off ..How do i Know used to make 22000 no way those people invest in stockmarket. I only invested when i hit 40,000 plus...When you make less than 30,000 ypu only think aboit paying bills. Plus many companies do nor offer Stock options. McDonald's anf others come to mind...
I didn’t pull the numbers out of thin air. I’m sure that is your experience; however that is anecdotal. Barring fake news, of course.

“Just around 40% of American households with incomes between $22,000 and $49,000 a year have money invested in the stock market, according to the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College.

Around 60% of households making between $50,000 and $90,000 a year own stocks. “


“On average, public employee pension funds have 60 percent of their assets invested in the stock market, including roughly 15 percent in foreign stock markets. Union pension funds have a slightly smaller share of their assets in the stock market, 57 percent.”

 
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Crazyhole

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$3 Trillion deficit.
Taxes for the highest earners were already low, and recently dropped lower.
0% interest rates.
Corporations STILL sitting on mountains of cash.
40 years of stagnant wages for over 90% of the population.

I seriously don't know how you can have the wool pulled over your eyes even more than it is now. Every economic decision in this country is made to the benefit of those whom are already ultra-wealthy, and most often at the expense of the large majority of the population.
In fairness, we did experience some real wage growth over from 2017-2019, but it was pretty small. Everything else you said: 100% nailed it.
 
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sk8knight

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In fairness, we did experience some real wage growth over from 2017-2019, but it was pretty small. Everything else you said: 100% nailed it.
So what do you want to do about it? Penalize corporations with higher taxes? That just pushes expenses down the line and encourages offshoring. Increase regulations? Same problem. Nationalize industries?

What are we going to do about government? The people there that can solve the problem make more money and power off the problems than they do solving the problems. But for some reason there’s a big move towards more government. So what is the real answer?
 
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Crazyhole

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So what do you want to do about it? Penalize corporations with higher taxes? That just pushes expenses down the line and encourages offshoring. Increase regulations? Same problem. Nationalize industries?

What are we going to do about government? The people there that can solve the problem make more money and power off the problems than they do solving the problems. But for some reason there’s a big move towards more government. So what is the real answer?
Quite the conundrum, isn't it. I dont think any of the "solutions" you presented help at all. Honestly, collapse and start over seems like the only way to correct things at this point.
 

chemmie

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So what do you want to do about it? Penalize corporations with higher taxes? That just pushes expenses down the line and encourages offshoring. Increase regulations? Same problem. Nationalize industries?

What are we going to do about government? The people there that can solve the problem make more money and power off the problems than they do solving the problems. But for some reason there’s a big move towards more government. So what is the real answer?
"Penalize corporations with higher taxes"
LOL.
We're the wealthiest country in the world with nothing to show for it but a $3Trillion yearly budget deficit and an economy waiting to crash and screw 90% of our population, and you're worried about the ultra-wealthy getting "penalized."

Short answer: yup.

First: Tax all income the same. No more getting around by stock options or whatever other loopholes they find. All income is taxed as income for individuals, even capital gains.
1B: Lose the cap on payroll taxes. Boom, social security and medicare are saved.
1C: Fix our tax brackets (easier said than done) Raise the top bracket, and establish another higher bracket with higher taxes. (for instance, 50% on earnings over $2 million, or something)

Second: for publicly traded corporations, your minimum wage is tied to your earnings.
Third: for publicly traded corporations, employee benefits are tied to your earnings.
Fourth: for publicly traded corporations, maximum wages for executives are tied to your earnings.
Fifth: for publicly traded corporations, maximize the amount of cash they can sit on without reinvestment into the business.

Being a publicly traded corporation is a privilege. By taking advantage of our system that allows the public to invest in your corporation, you have to follow certain rules which should include a basic level of income for your employees, and standard benefits.

Lastly, f*ck your white collar prisons. When these corrupt assholes get caught cheating or endangering the public, then need to be thrown in a pound-me-in-the-ass prison.
 
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Crazyhole

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"Penalize corporations with higher taxes"
LOL.
We're the wealthiest country in the world with nothing to show for it but a $3Trillion yearly budget deficit and an economy waiting to crash and screw 90% of our population, and you're worried about the ultra-wealthy getting "penalized."

Short answer: yup.

First: Tax all income the same. No more getting around by stock options or whatever other loopholes they find. All income is taxed as income for individuals, even capital gains.
1B: Lose the cap on payroll taxes. Boom, social security and medicare are saved.
1C: Fix our tax brackets (easier said than done) Raise the top bracket, and establish another higher bracket with higher taxes. (for instance, 50% on earnings over $2 million, or something)

Second: for publicly traded corporations, your minimum wage is tied to your earnings.
Third: for publicly traded corporations, employee benefits are tied to your earnings.
Fourth: for publicly traded corporations, maximum wages for executives are tied to your earnings.
Fifth: for publicly traded corporations, maximize the amount of cash they can sit on without reinvestment into the business.

Being a publicly traded corporation is a privilege. By taking advantage of our system that allows the public to invest in your corporation, you have to follow certain rules which should include a basic level of income for your employees, and standard benefits.

Lastly, f*ck your white collar prisons. When these corrupt assholes get caught cheating or endangering the public, then need to be thrown in a pound-me-in-the-ass prison.
Lol. I'm not going to agree with every point there, but props on your thought process and damn near nailing it.
 
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sk8knight

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Lol. I'm not going to agree with every point there, but props on your thought process and damn near nailing it.
I don’t know. Chemmie’s been spewing wealth envy big government solutions here for years. His solution is basically fascism without the price controls. Especially when he starts talking about anything being a “privilege.”
 

chemmie

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I don’t know. Chemmie’s been spewing wealth envy big government solutions here for years. His solution is basically fascism without the price controls. Especially when he starts talking about anything being a “privilege.”
How hard do you have to ignore reality to come up with statements like "fascism without the price controls" and "wealth envy?"
 

Crazyhole

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I don’t know. Chemmie’s been spewing wealth envy big government solutions here for years. His solution is basically fascism without the price controls. Especially when he starts talking about anything being a “privilege.”
I can't speak to any of the privilege stuff, but he is correct in recognizing the problem that we are facing.
 
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sk8knight

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I can't speak to any of the privilege stuff, but he is correct in recognizing the problem that we are facing.
Sure. But I can tell you firsthand that there are people in Washington DC that don’t think there is a problem and they are pushing very hard for more of the same.
 

Ucfmikes

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"Penalize corporations with higher taxes"
LOL.
We're the wealthiest country in the world with nothing to show for it but a $3Trillion yearly budget deficit and an economy waiting to crash and screw 90% of our population, and you're worried about the ultra-wealthy getting "penalized."

Short answer: yup.

First: Tax all income the same. No more getting around by stock options or whatever other loopholes they find. All income is taxed as income for individuals, even capital gains.
1B: Lose the cap on payroll taxes. Boom, social security and medicare are saved.
1C: Fix our tax brackets (easier said than done) Raise the top bracket, and establish another higher bracket with higher taxes. (for instance, 50% on earnings over $2 million, or something)

Second: for publicly traded corporations, your minimum wage is tied to your earnings.
Third: for publicly traded corporations, employee benefits are tied to your earnings.
Fourth: for publicly traded corporations, maximum wages for executives are tied to your earnings.
Fifth: for publicly traded corporations, maximize the amount of cash they can sit on without reinvestment into the business.

Being a publicly traded corporation is a privilege. By taking advantage of our system that allows the public to invest in your corporation, you have to follow certain rules which should include a basic level of income for your employees, and standard benefits.

Lastly, f*ck your white collar prisons. When these corrupt assholes get caught cheating or endangering the public, then need to be thrown in a pound-me-in-the-ass prison.
Why do poor lazy people like yourself hate the hard working wealthy so much? Is it envy or jealousy?
 

Retnuhrace

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Why do poor lazy people like yourself hate the hard working wealthy so much? Is it envy or jealousy?
If there truly was a linear correlation between “hard work” and wealth, then this would not be an issue. The problem is, there isn’t. There are millions of Americans who work stressful jobs and crazy hours only to just make ends meet, while there are many (of course not all) very wealthy Americans who create and maintain their wealth thanks to offshore accounts, finding tax loopholes, cronyism, and screwing over the middle/working class. That is what needs to change in order for the country to get back in the right direction.
 

Ucfmikes

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If there truly was a linear correlation between “hard work” and wealth, then this would not be an issue. The problem is, there isn’t. There are millions of Americans who work stressful jobs and crazy hours only to just make ends meet, while there are many (of course not all) very wealthy Americans who create and maintain their wealth thanks to offshore accounts, finding tax loopholes, cronyism, and screwing over the middle/working class. That is what needs to change in order for the country to get back in the right direction.
The problem is that sometimes you’re unfairly taxing the wealthy that have killed themselves their whole lives clawing to the top only to penalize them more than the many more millions who will benefit from showing very little ambition. If you want to put an end to all those loopholes then that’s fine, but to simply have a higher income tax for hard working ambitious people who make say $250,000-$500,000 is ridiculously unfair. There is no way that one American should be taxed more than another percentage wise

@chemmie stated that we should all be taxed the same, but in the same post states that the richest should be taxed more. Why should that be?
 

chemmie

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The problem is that sometimes you’re unfairly taxing the wealthy that have killed themselves their whole lives clawing to the top only to penalize them more than the many more millions who will benefit from showing very little ambition. If you want to put an end to all those loopholes then that’s fine, but to simply have a higher income tax for hard working ambitious people who make say $250,000-$500,000 is ridiculously unfair. There is no way that one American should be taxed more than another percentage wise

@chemmie stated that we should all be taxed the same, but in the same post states that the richest should be taxed more. Why should that be?
(I hope you read this whole thing. It isn't "wealth envy," but realizing the reality of the situation)
No, I didn't say that. I said all income should be taxed the same, as income. No more getting paid in stock options and paying long-term capital gains taxes on millions upon millions of dollars. No more finding other loopholes to pay less and less. Income is income.

Progressive taxation is the norm for most of the civilized world. It isn't unfair. It isn't wrong.
The real issue is believe people making $250K-$500K are in the group of ultra-wealthy that we're talking about. They aren't. Those people are usually mid-to-upper management, entrepreneurs, doctors, lawyers... they are typical Americans who have done well for themselves.
And, they are getting screwed in the ass by this situation just as much as you, me, and the plumbers of the world.

When the $3T deficit needs to be paid, or when the artificially inflated stock market crashes, or when there is a pandemic, they and the rest of us will feel the brunt of the pain. Why?
Because the vast majority of money our government has artificially pumped into the economy is sitting (yes, sitting) at the very, very, very, top. It is just sitting there. Not trickling down. Not being invested in R&D. Not used for paying employees. It is just sitting there, waiting for the bubble to burst and the day to come when 95% of the population, including those making $250-$500K has to fix what they caused.
 
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KNIGHTTIME^

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I see wealth envy or productive envy here. There is nothing stopping you from improving your skills.
 

chemmie

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I see wealth envy or productive envy here. There is nothing stopping you from improving your skills.
There is nothing stopping you from being willfully ignorant of our economic situation, abnormally large wealth gap, $3T budget deficit, stagnant wages, poor infrastructure, and having a huge portion of our country's wealth sitting with the top 1%.
 

chemmie

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Sure. But I can tell you firsthand that there are people in Washington DC that don’t think there is a problem and they are pushing very hard for more of the same.
This is also a correct statement. Democrats and Republicans. The Federal Reserve pumps were on high during the Obama presidency too, and Janet Yellen just got herself a new job. None of them want to fix the actual issues, they are making too much money from it.

However, there are a few people in Washinton D.C. who do want to change it. Unfortunately, people just scream and cry and call them "socialists."
There is a big difference between changing Capitalism to make is sustainable, and Socialism.
 

KNIGHTTIME^

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There is nothing stopping you from being willfully ignorant of our economic situation, abnormally large wealth gap, $3T budget deficit, stagnant wages, poor infrastructure, and having a huge portion of our country's wealth sitting with the top 1%.
Huge problem is the democrats won't open states. You have areas with gestapo strike forces shutting down businesses. Wealth gap is because of cheap money and booming stock market. If some people invested 10% of their paycheck into the market, eventually they would end up with a pile of money. Budget deficit has been going on regardless of party unfortunately.
 

Retnuhrace

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However, there are a few people in Washinton D.C. who do want to change it. Unfortunately, people just scream and cry and call them "socialists."
There is a big difference between changing Capitalism to make is sustainable, and Socialism.
Right. The thing is, people are seeing this as a black or white issue. It’s not just strictly socialism OR capitalism. Rather, let’s think of society on a spectrum, with socialism on one end and capitalism on the other. Right now, we’re a little too skewed on one end (the capitalism end), where some of the negatives outweigh the positives due to certain groups of people having too much power. All those said politicians are trying to is rebalance that spectrum just a little bit to make things more fair.
 

chemmie

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Huge problem is the democrats won't open states. You have areas with gestapo strike forces shutting down businesses. Wealth gap is because of cheap money and booming stock market. If some people invested 10% of their paycheck into the market, eventually they would end up with a pile of money. Budget deficit has been going on regardless of party unfortunately.
Your last sentence is the only one even remotely relevant, and it is true.

The wealth gap and economic issues have been going on long before the pandemic. The pandemic is merely a crystal ball to see how we (meaning most ordinary Americans) will be affected by economic calamity.

Ordinary people investing (from plumbers to those making $500k) is just chicken feed. When this thing crashes down, and it will because the way it is pumped up isn't sustainable, we (those ordinary people) will be the ones affected most. We will lose our retirements and savings, while the people who kept the money pumping, and held billions in cash, sit and watch us grovel for our scraps.

It is a matter of sustaining our Capitalist system. The current model, using the Federal Reserve, tax cuts, exploited workers, and money sitting with the Top 1%, isn't sustainable. It has nothing to do with wealth envy or socialism, but sustaining the system we once built. The only way it sustains itself is if the wealth we all have created actually "trickles down" for a change.
 

Crazyhole

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Right. The thing is, people are seeing this as a black or white issue. It’s not just strictly socialism OR capitalism. Rather, let’s think of society on a spectrum, with socialism on one end and capitalism on the other. Right now, we’re a little too skewed on one end (the capitalism end), where some of the negatives outweigh the positives due to certain groups of people having too much power. All those said politicians are trying to is rebalance that spectrum just a little bit to make things more fair.
Its not necessarily capitalism vs socialism as much as it is free market economy vs managed economy. We are experiencing the bad parts of both systems, with wealth consolidation rapidly increasing and money printing going directly into the stock market. Unfortunately, we've passed the point of no return so basically the only thing left is the collapse of our currency.
 
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chemmie

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Right. The thing is, people are seeing this as a black or white issue. It’s not just strictly socialism OR capitalism. Rather, let’s think of society on a spectrum, with socialism on one end and capitalism on the other. Right now, we’re a little too skewed on one end (the capitalism end), where some of the negatives outweigh the positives due to certain groups of people having too much power. All those said politicians are trying to is rebalance that spectrum just a little bit to make things more fair.
I tend to think about it as necessary regulation of Capitalism. Unchecked Capitalism leads to three outcomes in order for those with the wealth to keep more and more of the wealth:
1. Poorer quality products. (increases profits)
2. Exploited workers. (cheaper employees, increases profits)
3. Wealth pooling at the very top. (not spending money, holding it, sustains inflated value)

The goal of our government should be (it isn't, of course) to have a thriving Capitalist economy, while avoiding those three inevitable outcomes of unchecked Capitalism. It isn't Socialism, it is ensuring Capitalism actually works for all of society, and not just a select few.
 

chemmie

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Its not necessarily capitalism vs socialism as much as it is free market economy vs managed economy. We are experiencing the bad parts of both systems, with wealth consolidation rapidly increasing and money printing going directly into the stock market. Unfortunately, we've passed the point of no return so basically the only thing left is the collapse of our currency.
There will be a collapse. And ordinary Americans will be the ones who feel the brunt of the collapse.

and again, this isn't a Democrat or Republican this. This has been going on for decades. It is cumulative. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump... all of them are culpable.
 

Crazyhole

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There will be a collapse. And ordinary Americans will be the ones who feel the brunt of the collapse.

and again, this isn't a Democrat or Republican this. This has been going on for decades. It is cumulative. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump... all of them are culpable.
Yep. It started with the S&L crisis in the early 80s. The Clinton years were actually probably the cleanest of the bunch. They just completely opened the floodgates in 2008 and it hasn't stopped since.
 

chemmie

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"New weekly unemployment claims spiked far more than expected last week to reach a five-month high, as the coronavirus pandemic and stay-in-place orders weighed heavily on the labor market. "

Meanwhile, stocks are at record highs.

Remember this when you try to blame Biden for the coming crash. It was already well in motion before Biden was elected.
 

Ucfmikes

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"New weekly unemployment claims spiked far more than expected last week to reach a five-month high, as the coronavirus pandemic and stay-in-place orders weighed heavily on the labor market. "

Meanwhile, stocks are at record highs.

Remember this when you try to blame Biden for the coming crash. It was already well in motion before Biden was elected.
Damage control before it happens. Got it
 

Ucfmikes

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I know you're not too smart, but it is already happening.
Ok.. sure. Biden will certainly start something new that we can all criticize. Should be fun.

Don’t worry I’ll bail your unemployed ass out again. *Poor people problems
 

DaShuckster

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"New weekly unemployment claims spiked far more than expected last week to reach a five-month high, as the coronavirus pandemic and stay-in-place orders weighed heavily on the labor market. "

Meanwhile, stocks are at record highs.

Remember this when you try to blame Biden for the coming crash. It was already well in motion before Biden was elected.
Honestly, this kind of talk from you and Crazy scares the shit out of me.

I pulled out of the stock market when the market made its big drop in March/April and stayed out (missing the rebound) until last November. I decided to reinvest thinking the stability that a new administration would bring plus the overall economic boom I could see coming with the new vaccines meaning that this pandemic will eventually be behind us will lead to some 'bullish' times ahead.

And since jumping back into the Market, I've been delighted to have experienced eight straight weeks of nice profits and have pretty much gotten my accounts back to where they were before last spring's big drop.

BUT...

I totally agree with Chemmie: What's wrong with this picture we're seeing right now? How in the world can stocks be rolling along in our current environment? In the immortal words of Han Solo, "I've got a bad feeling about this."

For most of the nation, the long-term security of our retirement years depends upon at least a 4% return on our investments every year. So, on one hand, there's a good chance there's a big collapse in our future. But on the other hand, most Americans can't afford to simply back out of the stock market and not play the game.

Essentially, we're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.
 

hemightbejeremy

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Honestly, this kind of talk from you and Crazy scares the shit out of me.

I pulled out of the stock market when the market made its big drop in March/April and stayed out (missing the rebound) until last November. I decided to reinvest thinking the stability that a new administration would bring plus the overall economic boom I could see coming with the new vaccines meaning that this pandemic will eventually be behind us will lead to some 'bullish' times ahead.

And since jumping back into the Market, I've been delighted to have experienced eight straight weeks of nice profits and have pretty much gotten my accounts back to where they were before last spring's big drop.

BUT...

I totally agree with Chemmie: What's wrong with this picture we're seeing right now? How in the world can stocks be rolling along in our current environment? In the immortal words of Han Solo, "I've got a bad feeling about this."

For most of the nation, the long-term security of our retirement years depends upon at least a 4% return on our investments every year. So, on one hand, three's a good chance there's a big collapse in our future. But on the other hand, most Americans can't afford to simply back out of the stock market and not play the game.

Essentially, we're stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.
I’m about 50-60% invested, but across gold, Spx, and emerging markets. I would absolutely not want to be fully invested in spx at this point.