Gun Policy in America

[UCFBS]

Below is a post my liberal, hunting friend made on Facebook and I would appreciate it if those of you who are gun owners would way in seriously on his ideas:

Let me preface this by saying that IF I were, for whatever reason the person who had to say "yes" of "no" to using the "no-fly list" as part of the background check for purchasing firearms, I would most likely say "yeah sure" and hope that the list was being built in a responsible way.

The problem, though, is we have NO IDEA how this list is being made, and what is being asked here is to curtail Constitutionally protected rights without due process. At which point we are side-stepping both the 2nd and 14th Amendments. (Our friends at the ACLU agree that there is a problem here: https://www.aclu.org/…/until-no-fly-list-fixed-it-shouldnt-…)

So what does your friend think of Senator Cornyn's proposal?

Although Cornyn has his own motives (he's big on domestic wire tapping), he wants to clean up the watch lists, to make them more effective. It's funny, but it was more moderate, Liberal media that "challenged" the Republicans on this. Cornyn just called their bluff, and he believes in his bill too.

I.e.,

• Every American citizen on any Federal watch list will be prevented from buying a gun, but ...
  
• The government agency who put that American on that list has 72 hours to prove to a judge that their inclusion on the list, even if they didn't commit a crime, is warranted
• If so, then they still cannot buy a gun, even if they didn't commit any crime, but ...
• If not, the American citizen is removed from the watch list, so the citizen now buy a gun.

In other words, it's going to help "clean up" the various watch lists, including the "Terrorist Watch List" that has millions of people on it -- 30-40x as many as the "No Fly" list -- including 5% American citizens.

BTW, the 72-hours rule was the Brady Foundation's original "waiting period" requirement, per their compromise with the ACLU, and has stuck since on these matters.

 

[chemmie]

Switzerland, Sweden and Norway are all in the top 10 of gun owners per capita. Hell nearly every home in Switzerland with a military age male has a Sig 550 (a true assault rifle as it is fully automatic) and ammo in it. Yet they have an order of magnitude fewer gun homicides per capita then us.

You said exacly what I knew you would say. Nevermind that Switzerland still has less than half of the per-capita guns that the U.S. does, they also have extreme amounts of gun regulation that the U.S. doesn't have. Their gun laws are very strict.

Which brings us to 85's post full of bullshit...

Every single goddamn person of military service age is issued a rifle for conscription- a Sig 550/551 and more commonly the Sig 552. Not only are these "scary" AR type rifles, they are also fully automatic, something illegal in the US.

People literally bike down the street with the rifles on their backs. There are shooting ranges in every town where you can freely go to shoot your issued rifle.

They are issued automatic weapons, and trained to use them. They can take the weapon home, but no ammo. Ammo stays with the Army, Copernicus. When they leave the service, the weapons are converted to semi-automatic. Automatic weapons are banned from personal use.
To purchase a gun for personal use, you need a permit. To get the permit, you must be over 18, not have a criminal record, and undergo a psychiatric and security background check.
To purchase ammunition, you need to provide a most recent criminal record check, and the ammo may only be for a gun you legally own.
To carry a gun in public, you need another permit.


Bottom line is the U.S. needs more gun regulation, and needs to get the outrageous numbers of guns we have off the street. Licensing, taxing, proficiency tests, psychiatric and security checks, buybacks, etc... none of these would take away from your 2nd Amendment rights, but would possibly help deter some gun crime.
It doesn't matter, though. Because you guys still can't get your heads out of your asses long enough to admit that we really do have a problem with gun crime.

 

[UCFWayne]

300 million + guns in the US with likely billions of rounds of ammo. IF there was a gun problem here, you would know it. IF there was a gun problem, there would be war in the streets.

 

[chemmie]

Chemmie you and I had a very reasonable discussion about this the other day. There are lots of things we can do better in this country with regards to gun violence. It's mostly just eliminating unnecessary violence towards other human beings. The neighborhoods with high murder rates are not that way because of guns or a culture of guns. They are the way they are because of a culture of disrespect. Too many are raised in plain view of beatings, stabbings , shootings and just generally disrespecting everyone that comes along from the time they can talk. All this shit adds up to disaster . You can make valid points but when your conversation starts with republicansand the nra are to blame for everything you show a fundamental lack of knowledge and intelligence and anything relevant you say will be tuned out

Those neighborhoods are like that because they are poor and under-educated. Fixing that is a completely separate problem. But, when anyone, even the poor, uneducated, those with criminal records, etc., can purchase a gun and ammo cheaply and without issue, it makes it much easier for gun problems to develop.
Very few people are calling for bans on guns. Most people just want some more regulation that can possibly help matters, or make some guns less lethal to minimize the impact of somebody firing off in a crowd. The way it is portrayed, one group wants to take all of your guns and the other group won't budge on a single regulation. Screw that, we need to be smarter, because we out pace the rest of the civilized world in gun violence by a gigantic margin.

 

[btbones]

For the record I said we do indeed need to do much better . But let's enforce the regulations we have first and it should be immediate and then see what else we need to do .

 

[UCFBS]

You said exacly what I knew you would say. Nevermind that Switzerland still has less than half of the per-capita guns that the U.S. does, they also have extreme amounts of gun regulation that the U.S. doesn't have. Their gun laws are very strict.

And still ... you are over 11x more likely to die in a mass shooting in Switzerland than the US.

 

[chemmie]

300 million + guns in the US with likely billions of rounds of ammo. IF there was a gun problem here, you would know it. IF there was a gun problem, there would be war in the streets.

Remember that thing I wrote about removing head from ass?

 

[NinjaKnight]

You said exacly what I knew you would say. Nevermind that Switzerland still has less than half of the per-capita guns that the U.S. does, they also have extreme amounts of gun regulation that the U.S. doesn't have. Their gun laws are very strict.

Which brings us to 85's post full of bullshit...

They are issued automatic weapons, and trained to use them. They can take the weapon home, but no ammo. Ammo stays with the Army, Copernicus. When they leave the service, the weapons are converted to semi-automatic. Automatic weapons are banned from personal use.
To purchase a gun for personal use, you need a permit. To get the permit, you must be over 18, not have a criminal record, and undergo a psychiatric and security background check.
To purchase ammunition, you need to provide a most recent criminal record check, and the ammo may only be for a gun you legally own.
To carry a gun in public, you need another permit.


Bottom line is the U.S. needs more gun regulation, and needs to get the outrageous numbers of guns we have off the street. Licensing, taxing, proficiency tests, psychiatric and security checks, buybacks, etc... none of these would take away from your 2nd Amendment rights, but would possibly help deter some gun crime.
It doesn't matter, though. Because you guys still can't get your heads out of your asses long enough to admit that we really do have a problem with gun crime.

How exactly are they "very strict" when nearly ever 18-40 year old male has a FULLY AUTOMATIC assault rifle in their house? With access to ammo that must be kept sealed in their house (but still have access to). I think you are proving my own point, it's a cultural problem. These "outrageous numbers of guns we have on the street" (your words) aren't causing the problems. My guns have never been used in a crime, because I am a responsible logical adult.

 

[UCFBS]

For the record I said we do indeed need to do much better . But let's enforce the regulations we have first and it should be immediate and then see what else we need to do .

Exactly.

Right now the NCIC is a mess. Law enforcement database are a mess. It's why the South Carolina shooter got through the system.

The problem is that politicians keep wasting time and money on stupid "sting" (and often political) operations, instead of enforcing existing laws. ATF and FBI agents aren't dumb, but they are often at the mercy of our politicians.

Case-in-Point: Heck, we would have never found out about the expanded gun-running if it hadn't been for three (3) ATF agents who were reprimanded for pointing out, internally, and finally whistleblew after, externally, a Democratic Congresswoman from California was holding up a Federal Gunrunning gun, therefore misleading the public.

Heck, the proposed M855 ammunition ban was another great example of how the ATF "controls" physics and science-ignorant politicians. The President called for a ban on M855 ammunition, so the ATF put it out for public comments. 98% of the comments from Subject Matter Experts (SME) showed how it would do nothing, showing that any .223/5.56 penetrates most body armor any way, and the military has moved on to a more effect round that is not sold to civilians any way. Therefore the ATF could go back to the administration and say, "Here is all the SME input."

That's why the President no longer involves the ATF, although the ATF is quite humorous at times, including their "advisement" on the new "restrictions" on some fully-automatic and "stamp" weapons -- which are actually "relaxing" in some ways.

 

[UCFKnight85]

chemmie reads a f*cking Wikipedia post while I actually go there and see first hand that all of that is BULLSHIT. I've walked into apartments of conscripts and active Army and seen hundreds of rounds of ammo.

The Army does not control all of the ammo. I've seen guys arrive at vacant firing ranges with their own M2A1 can to target shoot. Easily with 100-150 rounds.

Stop believing what gun control blogs tell you.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Here's a picture from a Geneva Apple store. Sig 551 slung over the shoulder of a guy in plain clothes.

Just imagine the hysteria here if this happened.

 

[UCFBS]

Remember that thing I wrote about removing head from ass?

My thoughts exactly ... aimed at you! Gun crime is down in the US. It continues to go down. You keep watching too much TV.

Barely 1,000 unlawful homicides by non-organize crime per year on average. 300M guns, only 1,000 unlawful homicides. Considering the sheer number of firearms in the US, it's unreal that it doesn't happen far, far more.

Now factor in accidents, around 1,200 of those per year. That's extremely low compared to most other accidents. Take pools for example. If you own a gun in the home and a pool, you are 40x more likely for any kid -- yours or a friend's -- to die from your negligence with your firearm than your pool.

Now factor in organized crime. It baloons to 8,000+.

Now factor in domestic terrorism that, despite the media, does happen 12-15x more from a Muslim, than other faiths. Yes, aggregately, the average American citizen "edges out" Muslims. But they are very close, and then you factor in how small of a demographic.

And we can go on and on.

This is literally the against statistical and scientific fact the average "Progressive Liberal" is. They are literally like a "Religious Conservative" believing the Earth is only a few thousand years old. Why? "Blind Faith" in the "Church of Popular Media" because they spew facts they do not bother to check and are at odds with scientific facts.

 

[chemmie]

And still ... you are over 11x more likely to die in a mass shooting in Switzerland than the US.

That is deaths per capita, Copernicus.
Switzerland has had two mass shootings, that I can find. Two.

The U.S. has had over 130.

 

[UCFWayne]

Remember that thing I wrote about removing head from ass?

You are 100% correct. You need to remove your head from your own ass. Then maybe you can start looking at actual facts vs using emotion to drive your narrative.

 

[chemmie]

chemmie reads a f*cking Wikipedia post while I actually go there and see first hand that all of that is BULLSHIT. I've walked into apartments of conscripts and active Army and seen hundreds of rounds of ammo.

The Army does not control all of the ammo. I've seen guys arrive at vacant firing ranges with their own M2A1 can to target shoot. Easily with 100-150 rounds.

Stop believing what gun control blogs tell you.

Stop believing the actual laws of Switzerland, believe 85 because he spent a hot and sweaty Swiss night in Jurgen's apartment.

BTBones, this is why I continuously insult people around here. They are impervious to facts. They just believe whatever the hell they want to believe and ignore the rest.

 

[NinjaKnight]

That is deaths per capita, Copernicus.
Switzerland has had two mass shootings, that I can find. Two.

The U.S. has had over 130.

And Switzerland has far, far more assault rifles in peoples houses than the US does. Thanks for proving my point that more assault rifles does not equal more mass shootings.

 

[UCFKnight85]

That is deaths per capita, Copernicus.
Switzerland has had two mass shootings, that I can find. Two.

The U.S. has had over 130.

Considering that the FBI can't even clearly define what a "mass shooting" is, it's interesting that you seemingly know the exact number. I say this knowing that many "mass shootings" in this country are anything but, and only get labeled this way to make the number seem outrageous.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Stop believing the actual laws of Switzerland, believe 85 because he spent a hot and sweaty Swiss night in Jurgen's apartment.

BTBones, this is why I continuously insult people around here. They are impervious to facts. They just believe whatever the hell they want to believe and ignore the rest.

Yea, we get it. You once ate some pretentious $300 dinner there once, so you know the area better than me. Or anyone else. This is an old, tired story.

If you really think that it'd be difficult for a mass murderer/jihadist/suicidal asshole to get his hands on plenty of ammo in Switzerland, you're a delusional moron. Period. But that's my point- the place is flooded with REAL assault rifles and yet no one is itching to go kill innocent people.

You keep side stepping that issue. It's because admitting that society is sick will mean admitting that the war on the "traditional family" is flopping.

 

[chemmie]

With access to ammo that must be kept sealed in their house (but still have access to).

This is a false statement. The law was changed several years ago and the ammunition returned to the Army.

...and why can't you understand the difference between trained soldiers owning weapons, and any idiot off the street owning a weapon?

 

[chemmie]

Yea, we get it. You once ate some pretentious $300 dinner there once, so you know the area better than me. Or anyone else. This is an old, tired story.

If you really think that it'd be difficult for a mass murderer/jihadist/suicidal asshole to get his hands on plenty of ammo in Switzerland, you're a delusional moron. Period. But that's my point- the place is flooded with REAL assault rifles and yet no one is itching to go kill innocent people.

You keep side stepping that issue. It's because admitting that society is sick will mean admitting that the war on the "traditional family" is flopping.

I obviously know their laws better than you.
...and just because Jurgen was wearing a leather gun belt and full metal jacket of ammo while he jackhammered you, doesn't mean you know the laws.

 

[chemmie]

the war on the "traditional family"

Oh, goddamn, that is hilarious.

 

[UCFBS]

That is deaths per capita, Copernicus.

Do you not understand how per-capita works?

This is this why people use the term "Libtard" for the new age, Totalitarian "Progressive Liberal." They literally cannot fathom math.

That's why many arrogant Europeans like to talk about how much energy the US uses versus their country ... until per-capita comes about. Even better still? Combine the EU as a whole, and the population, energy consumption, CO2 output is fairly comparable.

But just like Libtards, many arrogant Europeans do the same thing ... totally avoid per-capita.

 

[UCFBS]

Considering that the FBI can't even clearly define what a "mass shooting" is, it's interesting that you seemingly know the exact number. I say this knowing that many "mass shootings" in this country are anything but, and only get labeled this way to make the number seem outrageous.

And yet, statistically, more people die in a mass shooting in the EU, largely because people do not have their firearms on them.

 

[1ofTheseKnights]

The NRA is for pussíes. It's all about the GOA.

 

[jetsaholic]

Every time I think chemmie can't be any more stupid, he posts golden material like this.

So, basically, in other countries, the person is at fault. In the U.S., the gun is at fault. If you think that is not what you said, then you're a dumber bag of dicks that you think, dude.

 

[UCFBS]

The NRA is for pussíes. It's all about the GOA.

Actually a lot firearms instructors, law enforcement and owners feel the NRA are pussies and are too accommodating. The original split started back after the '68 law. To be honest, they were right ...

I.e., the media has done exactly what the naysayers said in '68, as well as later predicted the Brady Foundation would go back on their word to the ACLU.

We're living in a society that doesn't realize automatic military weapons are already outlawed. The civilian "black rifle" (AR-15 like similar) semi-auto shoots no faster than a pistol, and not really much faster than bolt-action or shotgun.

People also forget most of the strongest, legally, and most universally enforced laws were written with the help of the NRA, who are still -- by far -- some of the best authorities on firearm safety and training.

 

[chemmie]

Every time I think chemmie can't be any more stupid, he posts golden material like this.

So, basically, in other countries, the person is at fault. In the U.S., the gun is at fault. If you think that is not what you said, then you're a dumber bag of dicks that you think, dude.

No, that isn't even close to what I have said. I don't even understand how your simple, migrant worker, mind even came to that conclusion.
What I have said is that other countries have much stronger regulations for purchasing guns and ammo, carrying guns, demonstrating proficiency, and keeping guns. These regulations help keep their gun crime at much lower levels than ours. In the U.S., on the other hand, any idiot can go buy a gun and a stockpile of ammo, without demonstrating skill, purchasing a license, having a criminal record, or doing pretty much anything more than plopping some cash on a table. This helps keep our gun crime rates at much, much, higher levels.

 

[USFSucks]

Yea, we get it. You once ate some pretentious $300 dinner there once, so you know the area better than me. Or anyone else. This is an old, tired story.

I liked this comment just for this line. Sums up Chemmie perfectly.

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

I love seeing how stupid the other half of the country is. I probably shouldn't go home tonight, my guns outnumber me.

 

[1ofTheseKnights]

I love seeing how stupid the other half of the country is. I probably shouldn't go home tonight, my guns outnumber me.

They're gonna commit a mass shooting now any day

 

[Bob the Citronaut]

Luckily no one lives within 5-600 feet of my house. If I lived in subdivision it would be massacre.

 

[1ofTheseKnights]

Nice to c u 85 & even BS locate ur marbles. The opponent is literally someone who thinks madmen can't be stopped w pencil pushers signing documents & singing kumbuya.

 

[UCFKnight85]

This is a false statement. The law was changed several years ago and the ammunition returned to the Army.

...and why can't you understand the difference between trained soldiers owning weapons, and any idiot off the street owning a weapon?

What does "returned to the army" even mean?? They ARE the Army. This is like saying US Soldiers don't have access to ammo since it's been returned to the US Army.

I know you're again trying to assert knowledge on something you don't understand, but let me clearly explain how ammo issuance works there: the army Depot issues ammo to company commanders in each Canon. They are in charge of both active duty and Conscripts. This ammo is then issued down to unit levels where they distribute to 20-30 guys maximum and direct their training requirements. This one unit CO has access to literally thousands of rounds of ammo and they regularly issue ammo directly to conscripts and soldiers to keep at their home prior to training. Alternatively, a soldier can go to the unit level cache and request ammo to go shoot with at any time.

The point is that at any given time, getting their hands on ammo is not hard. There have been recent examples of idiot conscripts shooting their spouse over domestic disputes- they did that with ammo, not imaginary ammo.

Not to mention there is commercial ammo available in Switzerland for everyone else that is not hard to come by.

I know that you need us to believe that it's air tight regulated and THAT'S why they don't have more incidents like we do, but you're not going to do that. Not when there are people here to deflect your BS.

 

[UCFBS]

What does "returned to the army" even mean?? They ARE the Army. This is like saying US Soldiers don't have access to ammo since it's been returned to the US Army.

Yeah, in all honestly, it's the classic, ignorant US media at work. He didn't even understand why per-capita is relevant.

Smaller population EU nations, with total conscription, who use everyday roads as runways for their air force, and have entirely different concepts of everyday national defense that are foreign to Americans.

At the same time, Finland and Switzerland do have their gun issues too, per-capita. I'm the first one to admit that, and I'm pro-2nd Amendment (even though I don't own).

 

[KNIGHTTIME^]

Things will improve when Democrats quit the gun violence.

 

[NonaKnight]

I'm kinda anti-gun, but the problem isn't a gun problem. It's a hate problem. If he didn't have access to guns, he would have made a bomb, just like the Boston bombers.

.

It takes some effort and know how to make and use a bomb. You can't say that for guns.

 

[USFSucks]

It takes some effort and know how to make and use a bomb. You can't say that for guns.

Seriously? There have been simple, easy to use, bomb instructions online for over 20 years

 

[brahmanknight]

Seriously? There have been simple, easy to use, bomb instructions online for over 20 years

Shiiiit, I can build ya a dirty nuke in three months for 20.

 

[Knight_Light]

I obviously know their laws better than you...and just because Jurgen was wearing a leather gun belt and full metal jacket of ammo while he jackhammered you, doesn't mean you know the laws.

Humor is good...would read again just to laugh.

 

[NonaKnight]

Seriously? There have been simple, easy to use, bomb instructions online for over 20 years

There may be instructions, but I'm certain that it's much easier to buy and use a gun.