The Church and Homosexuality

[DaShuckster]

Below is a post taken from "PA priests raped over 1000 kids."

Then your response when this religion is criticized:

Rather than responding to this post by going WAY off-topic, I decided to give it its own discussion thread.

I find it interesting how many times I've heard people point to Islam and decry some of the old beliefs of SOME Muslims that rub us all the wrong way given today's societal norms (the above being a case in point.)

But while Conservative Christians are happy to single out some of the ancient beliefs of other religions that that are now frowned upon given our values today, these same people often take offense if anyone dares to challenge anything to do with their particular orthodoxy.

Case in point: Christianity's view of homosexuality. Some churches, my own included, are making a concerted effort to be more open and accepting of homosexuals in their congregations. As you would expect, there's also a lot of push back too. While I can appreciate how God's message to the ancient writers of the Bible could have been interpreted 'homosexuality to be a sin,' procreation is no longer critical given the size of our human population. And the natural bisexual feelings that most humans have to varying degrees is not nearly as "scary" today as they were even 20 years ago. Thanks to science we now know a heck of a lot more about human sexuality than we did back then---let alone centuries and centuries ago.

The response I've gotten when I've presented this in the past is that GOD'S WORD IS GOD'S WORD, DAMMIT, YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT'S A SIN AND WHAT'S NOT.

Funny thing is, all religions -- especially Christianity -- have been changing their practices and beliefs for centuries. So anyone who wants to use the Bible to justify their bigotry and homophobia, better be careful. The times they are a-changing.

 

[HeupelsThirdChin]

I don't have to be a "conservative Christian" to point out that the religion of Islam is absolute garbage. When's the last time someone blew themselves up and yelled "praise Jesus?

Sure, some Old Testament scripture is probably bigoted, but are their followers acting in accordance? Where's the Christian version of ISIS? Where are the countries where rape and sexual assault are skyrocketing because of Christian migrants? (See Sweden and Germany for how that trash faith destroys peaceful environments)

Where are the Christian grooming gangs that are running wild? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html

Where are the Christian countries that are doling out the death penalty to homosexuals? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...death-2/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6a210a746a35

Which Christian country is giving rape victims the death penalty as punishment for "adultery"?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reyhaneh_Jabbari

Where are the Christian countries that are destroying the health of their gene pool due to the prevalence of inbreeding?
https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/m...cessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/

Not even close to being equivalent. Breeds a toxic culture that needs major reform before it deserves tolerance.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Christians sre hypocritical, this isn't news to you I hope. Hell 5 minutes on this board with the likes of 85 and fab is enough to prove it.

 

[DaShuckster]

Where are the Christian countries that are doling out the death penalty to homosexuals?

Um, I suppose we can pat ourselves on the back that we're not 'doling out the death penalty.'

But we're a long way away from opening accepting Gays into our Christian churches.

 

[goodknightfl]

Hopefully the church gets it stuff together, but I doubt it. The countries involved need to prosecute priest, and Fine the church big time. You hit em in the pocket hard enough they will pay attention.

 

[Jedi.Knight]

Um, I suppose we can pat ourselves on the back that we're not 'doling out the death penalty.'

But we're a long way away from opening accepting Gays into our Christian churches.

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

 

[NinjaKnight]

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

Leviticus 19

19“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them.
34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born.in EgyptI am the Lord your God.

Funny how we don't see churches protesting any of the above. Where are the protesters about medium rare steak? Where is the outrage about tattoos? Why isn't Chik Fil A donating millions to protest beard trimming? The bolded one is particularly incredible in todays day and age. Would love @fabknight to comment, but he's too much of a hypocritical pussy.

 

[DaShuckster]

Funny how we don't see churches protesting any of the above.

When Fundamentalist Christians rant about "those gays," I wonder why The Greatest Commandment of the Bible always seems to take a back seat to their hatred over "the sin" of homosexuality.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Leviticus 19

19“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
26 “‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.
27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
28 “‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them.
34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born.in EgyptI am the Lord your God.

Funny how we don't see churches protesting any of the above. Where are the protesters about medium rare steak? Where is the outrage about tattoos? Why isn't Chik Fil A donating millions to protest beard trimming? The bolded one is particularly incredible in todays day and age. Would love @fabknight to comment, but he's too much of a hypocritical pussy.

crickets.gif

 

[jt_knight]

crickets.gif

This is a good and fair question to ask. Why are some OT laws applicable today while others are not? The Law of Moses (OT Law) contains moral, civil, and ceremonial laws.

The moral law (i.e., stealing, murder, lying, child sacrifice) applies equally today as in the OT. Homosexuality along with any heterosexual activity outside of marriage is a violation of God's moral law.

Civil laws (i.e., debt, divorce, inheritance, etc.) applied to the nation of Israel. American civil law can differ from Israel's law without violating God's law. Christians are free to disagree on which civil laws and policies ought to be implemented without committing sin.

Ceremonial laws (i.e., dietary restrictions, festivals, etc.) related to the proper worship of God before the death and resurrection of Christ. They are no longer required in order to worship God.

All Christians ought to treat foreigners with the respect due to every person because every person is created in the image of God. That does not mean Christians must support amnesty or open borders as a policy of the United States. Morally, Christians must love thy neighbor, but in a civil sense, the Bible does not dictate immigration policy.

I hope this helps. If you are curious, here is a link that will explain in greater detail: https://carm.org/what-are-the-main-divisions-of-the-old-testament-law

 

[NinjaKnight]

This is a good and fair question to ask. Why are some OT laws applicable today while others are not? The Law of Moses (OT Law) contains moral, civil, and ceremonial laws.

The moral law (i.e., stealing, murder, lying, child sacrifice) applies equally today as in the OT. Homosexuality along with any heterosexual activity outside of marriage is a violation of God's moral law.

Civil laws (i.e., debt, divorce, inheritance, etc.) applied to the nation of Israel. American civil law can differ from Israel's law without violating God's law. Christians are free to disagree on which civil laws and policies ought to be implemented without committing sin.

Ceremonial laws (i.e., dietary restrictions, festivals, etc.) related to the proper worship of God before the death and resurrection of Christ. They are no longer required in order to worship God.

All Christians ought to treat foreigners with the respect due to every person because every person is created in the image of God. That does not mean Christians must support amnesty or open borders as a policy of the United States. Morally, Christians must love thy neighbor, but in a civil sense, the Bible does not dictate immigration policy.

I hope this helps. If you are curious, here is a link that will explain in greater detail: https://carm.org/what-are-the-main-divisions-of-the-old-testament-law

Thanks for the detailed response, I have read up on this quite a bit and the problem with your explanation lies with the modern day interpretation and application of "moral, ceremonial and civil laws". Not only are these not defined anywhere in the bible, but since they are not even defined who is to say which law lies where? It's painfully obvious that people put the homosexuality in the "moral" made up category when it could just as easily be put in the ceremonial or civil category.

 

[HeupelsThirdChin]

crickets.gif

Lmao this guy blocks everyone who calls him out on his conspiracies then pokes his chest out before going back to his hentai

 

[CommuterBob]

I don't have to be a "conservative Christian" to point out that the religion of Islam is absolute garbage. When's the last time someone blew themselves up and yelled "praise Jesus?

Sure, some Old Testament scripture is probably bigoted, but are their followers acting in accordance? Where's the Christian version of ISIS? Where are the countries where rape and sexual assault are skyrocketing because of Christian migrants? (See Sweden and Germany for how that trash faith destroys peaceful environments)

Where are the Christian grooming gangs that are running wild? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html

Where are the Christian countries that are doling out the death penalty to homosexuals? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...death-2/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6a210a746a35

Which Christian country is giving rape victims the death penalty as punishment for "adultery"?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reyhaneh_Jabbari

Where are the Christian countries that are destroying the health of their gene pool due to the prevalence of inbreeding?
https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/m...cessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/

Not even close to being equivalent. Breeds a toxic culture that needs major reform before it deserves tolerance.

Well, there's a growing sect of evangelical Christians who are hoping to bring about the end of the world...



...and believe supporting Israel is the way to do that.

 

[jt_knight]

Thanks for the detailed response, I have read up on this quite a bit and the problem with your explanation lies with the modern day interpretation and application of "moral, ceremonial and civil laws". Not only are these not defined anywhere in the bible, but since they are not even defined who is to say which law lies where? It's painfully obvious that people put the homosexuality in the "moral" made up category when it could just as easily be put in the ceremonial or civil category.

Since we are talking specifically about Christians then we look to both the Old and New Testament. The NT affirms the OT sexual ethics as part of the universal moral law of God. This includes the prohibition on homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality (and all heterosexual practices outside of marriage) cannot be relegated to a feature of the civil or ceremonial Law of Moses.

Conversely, the NT talks about why the ceremonial laws no longer apply to Christians. As for civil laws, they are not binding on Christians either because we do not live in a theocratic nation-state like ancient Israel. Christians may advocate for any civil law that does not violate the moral law of God.

 

[DaShuckster]

Since we are talking specifically about Christians then we look to both the Old and New Testament. The NT affirms the OT sexual ethics as part of the universal moral law of God.

As we've seen - and you've outlined - Christian laws have changed over the centuries. With what we know today about human sexuality, the church will eventually respond to the issue of homosexuality the same way they've responded to other changes in societal sensibilities in the past. To do anything less would be hypocritical of the Golden Rule.

It's worth noting that even though Jesus lived over 20 centuries ago and didn't have the benefit of today's science, he never condemned homosexuality.

 

[NinjaKnight]

Since we are talking specifically about Christians then we look to both the Old and New Testament. The NT affirms the OT sexual ethics as part of the universal moral law of God. This includes the prohibition on homosexuality. Therefore, homosexuality (and all heterosexual practices outside of marriage) cannot be relegated to a feature of the civil or ceremonial Law of Moses.

Conversely, the NT talks about why the ceremonial laws no longer apply to Christians. As for civil laws, they are not binding on Christians either because we do not live in a theocratic nation-state like ancient Israel. Christians may advocate for any civil law that does not violate the moral law of God.

The problem with your argument is still that no where in the bible are these "ceremonial, civil and moral" laws defined. This is a modern day invention. And I'm glad you mentioned that all sexual sins are mentioned in the new testament. I just wonder why the modern church turns a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, etc when it is clearly just as "bad" in the bible as homosexuality.

 

[jt_knight]

As we've seen - and you've outlined - Christian laws have changed over the centuries. With what we know today about human sexuality, the church will eventually respond to the issue of homosexuality the same way they've responded to other changes in societal sensibilities in the past. To do anything less would be hypocritical of the Golden Rule.

It's worth noting that even though Jesus lived over 20 centuries ago and didn't have the benefit of today's science, he never condemned homosexuality.

To fairly respond to your point about "Christian laws" changing would require far too detailed examination of theology and church history not suitable for this forum. But in short, the laws and practices of nations change but the Bible remains the same. Our understanding and application of the Bible can change based on the context in which we are living, but the foundation of God, man, sin (including all sexual sin), and salvation (the Gospel) remain the same. Christians should not worry about shifting cultural understandings of marriage and sexuality because ultimately scripture, not culture is the authority for Christians. I realize the issue of authority (especially concerning scientific discovery) creates a dozen new threads for this topic but I would suggest it be dealt with separately.

As far as Jesus is concerned, he affirmed the OT teachings on marriage and sexuality. This teaching included the prohibition on homosexual activity and any sexual activity outside of marriage.

The problem with your argument is still that no where in the bible are these "ceremonial, civil and moral" laws defined. This is a modern day invention. And I'm glad you mentioned that all sexual sins are mentioned in the new testament. I just wonder why the modern church turns a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, etc when it is clearly just as "bad" in the bible as homosexuality.

I agree. Churches turning a blind eye to heterosexual sin are in error and fall under the righteous judgment of God.

As far as the distinctions being a modern concept it has been understood since the early church fathers. Though not spelled out explicitly in scripture, it is evident from scripture as an observation a posteriori.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/on-the-tripartite-division-of-the-law/.

Using reason, one can read scripture and arrive at the conclusion that God intended certain divine ordinances to have a temporal limitation while others are eternally and universally binding. I do not see biblical evidence to suggest that homosexuality should be treated with temporal limitations. But I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.

 

[UCFBS]

Rather than responding to this post by going WAY off-topic, I decided to give it its own discussion thread.

I find it interesting how many times I've heard people point to Islam and decry some of the old beliefs of SOME Muslims that rub us all the wrong way given today's societal norms (the above being a case in point.)

But while Conservative Christians are happy to single out some of the ancient beliefs of other religions that that are now frowned upon given our values today, these same people often take offense if anyone dares to challenge anything to do with their particular orthodoxy.

Because the US media excuses the former, but not the latter.

Are some Christians hypocritical? Even harmful? Absolutely!

But does the US media give some Muslims a pass? Absolutely!

That's what the right is complaining about, and they have a point.

 

[DaShuckster]

An UPDATE to this thread - The past two weeks, the United Methodist Church held it's general conference held once every four years. Back in 2019, reports were the world church was going to split in half over the issue of openly gay members, openly gay clergy, and gay marriage.

But the 2020 conference where the issue was to be decided was delayed until 2024 due to the pandemic. This past week, the Church overwhelmingly endorsed removing harmful LGBTQ language from its book of discipline and now allow churches to conduct gay marriages. It also lifted its ban on gay clergy. Some UMC churches in the South left but the predicted giant split did not occur.

I found the push back fascinating. One can't help but wonder how people who say they believe in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ convert to Old Testament Evangelists when the subject is human sexuality.

 

[thall_]

You got peepee slapped in your Israel thread so you're trying to shift gears 😆

Teachers, like you, are bigger predators to children than Priests

Educator Sexual Misconduct Remains Prevalent in Schools

Twenty years after the Shakeshaft Report, educator sexual misconduct remains rampant in U.S. schools. The results of a new study give insights into the abuse and how to prevent it.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[UCFBS]

Some people are just anti-Christian.
No different than any other bigotry.

 

[goodknightfl]

The problem with your argument is still that no where in the bible are these "ceremonial, civil and moral" laws defined. This is a modern day invention. And I'm glad you mentioned that all sexual sins are mentioned in the new testament. I just wonder why the modern church turns a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, etc when it is clearly just as "bad" in the bible as homosexuality.

I don't think most modern churches do turn a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, ect. I have heard plenty of sermons on it over the years, you can accept reality and love the sinner without condoning the sin. The same should be true in how the church handles gays,. It is more than possible to love the sinner without loving the sin.
No Christian should condone the sin, but that doesn't mean we have a right to mistreat the sinner.

 

[DaShuckster]

The same should be true in how the church handles gays,. It is more than possible to love the sinner without loving the sin.

Here in 2024, it is beyond ridiculous to still opine that homosexuality is "a sin." Scientists have learned more about human sexuality and the workings of the brain in the last 50 years than all of human history before then.

Once upon a time, homosexuality was feared because procreation was the key to the survival of the human species. With over eight billion people on the planet, I don't think we have to worry about that anymore.

No Christian should condone the sin, but that doesn't mean we have a right to mistreat the sinner.

Christianity is about love, not hate. People who believe that a Jesus Christ living today would call gays "sinners" hasn't spent much time reading the New Testament. Interestingly, Jesus and his teachings become more progressive -- amazingly so given the age he lived in -- if you read books about Jesus that the church's Powers-that-Be chose not to include in the Bible (i.e. the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary as examples.) Conservative censorship has a very long history in the church.

 

[goodknightfl]

Do we not call murderers, murderers? Yes, it is about love, but isn't about ignoring what is deemed to be a truth.

We are all sinners, and part of being a Christian is trying to be better person every day. Individually it is our job to address our own sins.
The Gospel of Mary and Thomas are not recognized by most scholars, Thomas gospel at the earliest was written 60 AD, and possibly 50 to 100 years later. That said it is considered the most anti women of the gospels. Most Christians do not see them as part of the bible, if your church does great.

 

[NinjaKnight]

I don't think most modern churches do turn a blind eye to sex out of wedlock, divorce, ect. I have heard plenty of sermons on it over the years, you can accept reality and love the sinner without condoning the sin. The same should be true in how the church handles gays,. It is more than possible to love the sinner without loving the sin.
No Christian should condone the sin, but that doesn't mean we have a right to mistreat the sinner.

Again, there's no prize for being the dumbest motherfûcker in the WC, stop trying so hard to earn it.

 

[thall_]

Scientists have learned more about human sexuality and the workings of the brain in the last 50 years than all of human history before then.

what did the scientists mean by this?

source

 

[goodknightfl]

I left the church a long time ago, Partially because of politics of the church and because what they preach and teach often go against the scriptures they say they follow. I am against discriminating against people simply because they are different. If you wish to go to a conservative church great, If you wish to go to a church where it is only about getting together for fellowship great. Any Christian church should be about following the teachings of Christ, If a church doesn't do that I see no reason for it to exist. Yes there is room for disagreement on what exactly what scriptures say or don't say, but I see no way to ignore everything we don't want to agree with.

 

[Nautiknight]

Yall can argue this stuff. It's fun to read. I wear clothes all the time woven with different fibers. I am doomed !
That advice of not eating meat with blood in it is spot on. Ever catch a black fin tuna or yellow fin tuna and not slit it's throat behind the operculum ? Man, the blood pools in the meat abd ruins it. Same thing with raising chickens for food. You slit their throats and hang them upside down to drain the blood otherwise it pools in the meat.

That thing about treating foreigners nice. You know there is a difference between treating somebody with dignity and say, giving them free healthcare, free housing, free food, and free education. Meanwhile, we have tens of thousands of homeless veterans the same government giving illegals a free ride are dumping on largely homeless men, who served this nation.

We are treating foreigners better than we are treating our own. The foreigners are breaking numerous laws , they arent some kind of benevolent and beneficiary group of people. They are coming here in large part to sponge off the good will of the American people. I guess I am going to hell for wanting to stop illegal immigration and deport people back to their countries.

Back to the topic though. The entire point of Christ is forgiveness. Everyone reading this thread who has breath is a dirty sinner. I am . You are Shuck . Everyone is including every stinking Christian in every church. WE suck. We all fail. We all do bad stuff. We are all hypocrites and very few of us can live up to the law in Levitucus. All my clothes right now are woven with cotton and some polyester.

I have two lesbian nieces. One is conservative as the day is long. She loves God. She loves America and the Bill of Rights. She just happens to like girls instead of boys for companionship . My other niece is married to her partner. She is generally kind but leans left and is kind of nutty in that regard. She is not a fan of the church.

I don't see how either of their sins are any different than my own. I know this. Christ came to cover our sinfulness. He paid the ultimate price and without Christ none of us past muster.

Boil Christianity down and it's this. Love God, love your neighbor and forgive one another. That's what Christ is about. That was his purpose to bridge the gap between humanity and God's perfection.

Radical Islam like practiced by Hamas , Iran and others is a bankrupt religion. I am sorry you don't get to claim you get to kill everyone who doesn't attend your church as it were because your god wills it. That's Fd up.

I have no respect or regard for that religion. It's not Islamophobic. It's called reason and discernment. It's a whacked religion . I don't have an irrational fear of Islam. My disdain for it is watching over my 56 years on this earth that those who lead it are constantly killing people in the name of their god. Yah, flying planes into buildings killing thousands is a great way to change hearts and minds said no one ever.

What's really fd up are the gay and lesbian students who are part of the organization that supports Hamas and Palestinians. It's actually kind of an oxymoron because those leaders in Hamas would kill them where they stand if they could . So, we rag on the Church in America because they say being gay is a sin, yet in many Islamic countries they flat out kill people for being gay.

I consider myself a Christian . I sin. I fail. I stumble and I try to reach to be a better person and to love my neighbor ,love God and forgive. Our churches would be better off if many more people see their own sins, their failings and work towards love and forgiveness more and judging others less.l

 

[thall_]

@goodknightfl @Nautiknight

you both keep trying to make good faith arguments to someone who will never change their mind, let alone read what you have to say

call him stupid and move on

 

[DaShuckster]

Any Christian church should be about following the teachings of Christ, If a church doesn't do that I see no reason for it to exist.

I 100% agree with you.

Yes there is room for disagreement on what exactly what scriptures say or don't say, but I see no way to ignore everything we don't want to agree with.

Why? Over the centures, we've grown to routinely "ignore old beliefs we don't agree with" anymore. Is eating shellfish a sin? Is it a sin for women to speak in church?

As we've grown to understand homosexuality is a part of nature and see more and more brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, children, and friends who we know and love come out as gay, churches across the country of all demoninations are recognizing it's not a sin either.

 

[AuburnLegacy_1]

I read this entire thread. So much to unpack. I purchased a 1931 Bible American Translation + Old Testament and will use the language from it.

No. 1, The Bible does not address 'monogamous' pedophilia.

Marriage is a covenant between a "man and his wife" (age unspecified), Genesis 2:24. Mary was 14 when she began pregnant with Jesus. Joseph was likely 19 or older. In America today, Joseph is charged with statutory rape, and if found guilty, must register as a sex offender. Mary is poked and prodded to test her virtue while being branded a "whore" at school and on social media. When found to be pure, her story is exploited in tabloids as fake. She must undergo additional medical testing to validate her claims. Meanwhile. Joseph's sentence is expunged, but his reputation is ruined in the city of crime. He and Mary must relocate to a small town where they have family and friends.

Per the Consortium for Street Children, "The age of consent in Israel is 14; any sexual activity with a girl below that age constitutes rape (Penal Law, section 345(a)). The law does not use gender neutral wording, so the rape of boys is not covered by section 345(a). 😱 However, sections 346 and 347 criminalize forbidden intercourse and sodomy where the victim is underage or the act was carried out by taking advantage of an imbalance of power (where the offender is in a position of authority, for example)."

No. 2, Homosexuality is a sin.

It should be neither tolerated, nor accepted. The word "homosexual" did not exist until 1868. It was not added to The Bible until 1946. However, the exact language of Leviticus 18:22 states "You must not lie with a male as with a woman since that would be abominable." Paul wrote, "That is why God has abandoned them to degrading passions. Their women have exchanged their natural functions for one that is unnatural, and men too in the same way have disregarded the natural function of women and been consumed with passion for one another, men for men, acting indecently, and experiencing in their own persons the inevitable penalty of what they have done" Romans 1:26-28.

Though homosexuality is a sin, it is no worse than any other sin, and any person who claims otherwise is committing a sin.

Paul writes, "Do not let anyone mislead you. People who are immoral or idolators or adulterers or sensual or given to unnatural vice or thieves or greedy--drunkards, abusive people, robbers--will not have any share in God's kingdom" First Letter to the Corinthians 6:9

James writes, "If you really obey the supreme law where the Scripture says, 'You must love your neighbor as you do yourself,' you are doing right, but if you show partiality (i.e., condemn homosexuals for example), you are committing a sin, and stand convicted before the Law as law breakers. For anyone who obeys the whole of the Law but makes one single slip is guilty of breaking all" James 2:9-10.

(The context of James' example was showing partiality to a rich guest over a poor guest, but I think the analogy is still appropriate.)

No. 3, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.

Matthew writes, "Do not suppose that I have come to do away with the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to do away with them but to enforce them. For I tell you, as long as heaven and earth endure, not one dotting of an i or crossing of a t will be from the Law until it is all observed. Anyone, therefore, who weakens one of the slightest of these commands, and teaches others to do so, will be ranking in the Kingdom of Heaven; but anyone who observes them and teaches others to do so will be ranked high in the Kingdom of Heaven" Matthew 5:17-19.

The Torah contains 613 commandments, but few all apply to every person. Some apply to animals. Some, the sick. Some, sex-linked. Some, job-related.

Dietary laws, for example, apply to everyone.

After the crucifixion of Jesus, Peter, while on his way to Joppa, grew hungry and went to a housetop to pray. He fell into a trance, saw the sky open, and a sheet came down, with all kinds of quadrupeds, reptiles, and wild birds on it. A voice said to him, "Get up, Peter! Kill something and eat it!" Luke writes, "But Peter said, 'Never Sir! For I have never eaten anything that was not ceremonially cleaned.' The voice came to him again a second time, 'Do not call what God has cleaned unclean.' This happened three times; then the thing was taken right up into the sky" The Acts of the Apostles 10:14-16.

Peter was tempted, but did not eat. He had not eaten anything unclean before or AFTER Jesus's death. He observed the dietary laws. So should we.

EDIT: Following the Law will not and can not save anyone. Only belief and faith in Christ and repent and turn away from sin.

 

[AuburnLegacy_1]

I 100% agree with you.

Is eating shellfish a sin?

Ceremoniously unclean.

Is it a sin for women to speak in church?

Preach, yes. Teach, no.

As we've grown to understand homosexuality is a part of nature and see more and more brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, children, and friends who we know and love come out as gay, churches across the country of all denominations are recognizing it's not a sin either.

Even the highest leaders of the church of satan disagree.

"I personally do not believe that homosexuality is a natural practice anymore than you do," Nicolas Shrek, founder of the werewolf order of satanism. (16:55) ... We do not feel that homosexuality is a healthy, or nature, or safe, or hygienic practice (17:25) ... I do not prescribe any moral onus against it. ... do whatever you want to do, but accept the consequences that come with it." (17:40)

So how does homosexuality become a "part of nature?"

"Satanism is a religion for the elite. It is a religion for leaders." (38:29). "We feel the best way to change the world into a satanic arena is by having strong individuals in different areas do their own individual work (10:31) "It's just a question of who manipulates the media. Who has the most money to put their reality forth." (22:15)

 

[DaShuckster]

I read this entire thread. So much to unpack. I purchased a 1931 Bible American Translation + Old Testament and will use the language from it.

Whooo Hooo!!! Can't wait.

No. 1, The Bible does not address 'monogamous' pedophilia.

You're telling us the Bible is apparently cool with a grown man having sex with a little girl as long as it's monogamous? Yikes.

No. 2, Homosexuality is a sin.

Pedophilia is all good but homosexuality is all bad. Gotcha.

Since you purchased a 1931 Bible for this, you might want to check out Genesis 1:27: "God created man in his own image."

The Christian faith tells us human beings were created to reflect God's moral and natural attributes. Since homosexuality has been found to be a part of the natural spectrum of human sexuality, what does that tell us?

When it comes to this issue, I find it very interesting that some so-called "Christians" choose to ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ and point to a chapter in the Old Testament instead. Odd, isn't it?

So how does homosexuality become a "part of nature?"

Your anti-LGBTQ stance is justified by.....a Youtube video by Satanic cult members??!? 🫤

 

[AuburnLegacy_1]

Whooo Hooo!!! Can't wait.

You're telling us the Bible is apparently cool with a grown man having sex with a little girl as long as it's monogamous? Yikes.

Correct. "A man and his wife"

Pedophilia is all good but homosexuality is all bad. Gotcha.

Monogamous*

If a man and a girl elope, the girl can claim spousal privilege and not be forced to testify against her husband.

Teacher marries former student despite pending charges

Authorities are looking at how the marriage will impact the criminal case against 37-year-old Matthew Shane Wester.

www.al.com

Since you purchased a 1931 Bible for this, you might want to check out Genesis 1:27: "God created man in his own image."

Correct. We also have free will. We can serve ourselves and fulfill our own carnal desires or we can die to self and live for Him.

The Christian faith tells us human beings were created to reflect God's moral and natural attributes.

See the last response.

Since homosexuality has been found to be a natural part of human sexuality spectrum, what does that tell us? ... When it comes to this issue, I find it very interesting that some so-called "Christians" choose to ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ and point to a chapter in the Old Testament instead. Odd, isn't it?

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Thus, The Old Testament has as much value as The New.

I quoted The Old and The New Testaments.

For example, Paul wrote, "That is why God has abandoned them to degrading passions. Their women have exchanged their natural functions for one that is unnatural, and men too in the same way have disregarded the natural function of women and been consumed with passion for one another, men for men, acting indecently, and experiencing in their own persons the inevitable penalty of what they have done" Romans 1:26-28.

I quoted the devil worshipers because even they think homosexuality is unnatural despite having no moral obligations against it.

Your anti-LGBTQ stance is justified by.....a Youtube video by Satanic cult members??!? 🫤

When or where did I make that stance?

Look again...

James writes, "If you really obey the supreme law where the Scripture says, 'You must love your neighbor as you do yourself,' you are doing right, but if you show partiality (i.e., condemn homosexuals for example), you are committing a sin, and stand convicted before the Law as law breakers. For anyone who obeys the whole of the Law but makes one single slip is guilty of breaking all" James 2:9-10.

Love is NOT tolerance or acceptance. A parent can LOVE a child without tolerating, accepting, or enabling disobedience.

God LOVES us.

1 Corinthians 13:4–8a (ESV) Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

I struggle with sexual sin myself.

 

[DaShuckster]

Correct. "A man and his wife" Monogamous*

The very idea that once upon a time young teenage girls used to be routinely 'married off' to old farts is sick.

We also have free will. We can serve ourselves and fulfill our own carnal desires or we can die to self and live for Him.

If 'carnal' feelings and desires are defined as being sexual attractions without any spiritual element, how do you explain monogamous gay couples married in their church? If God is love and a loving gay couple "lives for Him," where is the sin?

If your answer is about child bearing, there are many heterosexual couples who cannot have children. Are they sinners too?

The thing about Fundamentalists like you is stuff written 3000 years ago by ancient clerics is absolute. We're to believe those early clerics had all the answers because they were "divinely inspired." But we haven't had any devinely inspired people of faith since then?

And what about all those divinely inspired authors who had their works rejected from being included in the Bible. I guess the people who made the decisions about what to include and what not to include---and what to destroy---were devinely inspired too. We didn't need a Book of Mary from the Disciple who knew Jesus best, right? And what about all the subtle changes that took place over the centuries as the Bible was translated and re-translated over the centuries into different languages? Were all the differences in all the different languages divinely inspired too?

Regarding homosexuality, we've learned more about human sexuality in the last 50 years than in all previous thousands and thousands of years of mankind's existence combined. It's understandable why ancient man feared homosexuality. It was seen as a threat to a society which depended on reproduction to survive.

But now we know that there is a wide spectrum when it comes to human sexuality. It's always been there. But men and women today are now free to express their true selves with less fear of being shunned by society. From what we know of Jesus Christ and his teachings, he would openly embrace all of God's children, including, you know, 'THOSE' people.