Venezuela Crisis

[UCFKnight85]

Again, this super simplistic. If you don't think sanctions hurt an economy, I don't know what to tell you. And as far as the oil industry, it was basically deciding between nationalizing and keeping the profits in Venezuela, or not nationalizing and having the profits go to shareholders in America and Europe. Nobody is saying Venezuela has handled it perfectly, but to dismiss the other factors and to be nothing more than the parrot squawking "socialism bad, socialism bad" is simply ignorance.

Um, sanctions only were applied recently. You do know that right? VZ has had an economy in ruin for years now, inflation for years, people falling into poverty, hyperinflation since roughly 2013, etc

Socialism is bad. And it's directly to blame for VZ having a resource rich country and somehow creating an economy that is in shambles, with 3.4M people having already fled the country due to absolute poverty and despair.

This stops at 2016 but incredibly, inflation has only gotten WORSE since this graph was published. US sanctions on oil only started in early 2019.

 

[Cubs79]

Um, sanctions only were applied recently. You do know that right? VZ has had an economy in ruin for years now, inflation for years, people falling into poverty, hyperinflation since roughly 2013, etc

Socialism is bad. And it's directly to blame for VZ having a resource rich country and somehow creating an economy that is in shambles, with 3.4M people having already fled the country due to absolute poverty and despair.

This stops at 2016 but incredibly, inflation has only gotten WORSE since this graph was published. US sanctions on oil only started in early 2019.

The US has been involved with Venezuela for decades, and things went sour during the Bush-Chavez years. Maybe sanctions technically started recently, but there is evidence we backed a coup against Chavez years ago for goodness sake, so we have certainly been involved in Venezuela on multiple levels for the last 2 decades.

And if you think socialism was the problem, then I assume you think they should have sold the rights to their oil to the multinationals. How much of that money do you think would have been kept in Venezuela?

 

[fabknight]

And if you think socialism was the problem, then I assume you think they should have sold the rights to their oil to the multinationals. How much of that money do you think would have been kept in Venezuela?

Didn't the Venezuelan government just reneg on all the contracts and steal them back from the oil companies? Yes, they should have offered to buy them instead of just stealing them.

 

[Cubs79]

Didn't the Venezuelan government just reneg on all the contracts and steal them back from the oil companies? Yes, they should have offered to buy them instead of just stealing them.

Their oil has been nationalized since 1976, I honestly don't know if they just reneged on contracts or not. Regardless, this doesn't answer the question I asked. Would it be better for profits to stay in Venezuela, or for the profits to go to shareholders in other parts of the world?

 

[UCFWayne]

i used to think cubs was a decent liberal poster until this. he wont even admit to basic facts about the venezuelan gov. we cant have a conversation if you cant agree that the sky is blue.

 

[Cubs79]

i used to think cubs was a decent liberal poster until this. he wont even admit to basic facts about the venezuelan gov. we cant have a conversation if you cant agree that the sky is blue.

Dude, I don't know what this means. What basic facts? If you disagree with something I say that is perfectly fine, but actually say what you disagree with, not just some ad hominem attack. We are capable of having a conversation about anything, that is your choice as to whether or not you want to participate.

 

[UCFWayne]

Dude, I don't know what this means. What basic facts? If you disagree with something I say that is perfectly fine, but actually say what you disagree with, not just some ad hominem attack. We are capable of having a conversation about anything, that is your choice as to whether or not you want to participate.

is venezuela a socialist country or not?

 

[Cubs79]

is venezuela a socialist country or not?

Yes, nobody has denied that. I am simply saying all their problems aren't just because of socialism. There are other factors at play.

 

[UCFWayne]

Yes, nobody has denied that. I am simply saying all their problems aren't just because of socialism. There are other factors at play.

ive acknowledge other factors at play. such as the drop in oil price. you keep listing things like sanctions hurting them. we can point to exact dates sanctions were put in place. they dont align with the fall. why are you failing to recognize one of the bigger aspects in venezuelas fall?

 

[Cubs79]

ive acknowledge other factors at play. such as the drop in oil price. you keep listing things like sanctions hurting them. we can point to exact dates sanctions were put in place. they dont align with the fall. why are you failing to recognize one of the bigger aspects in venezuelas fall?

I am saying the international community has been involved with Venezuela for decades. It isn't a coincidence the outside world has decided another oil rich nation needs a change in leadership.

But how has socialism caused the downfall? What specifics can you point to that make you say that? Venezuela isn't a wealthy nation, outside of oil. Their economy is very much aligned with that industry. It is easy to say "socialism bad", but the reality is that even a capitalist society that is primarily built around one resource will suffer if the prices for that resource drop. Their economy was actually pretty good after Chavez took over, because oil prices were high. Then when oil prices dip, their economy is hurt. But again, these are things that would impact a capitalist society as well.

And of course now there are other issues, like what appears to be a coup being supported by foreign countries, including the US, which obviously causes instability. And look, I am not saying their government is perfect, I am simply saying it is a far more complex situation than people give it credit for. Like I mentioned earlier, you could honestly have college courses about the Venezuela situation and not even cover it all over a full semester, so it can't simply be watered down to sound bites.

 

[UCFKnight85]

I never thought I’d see someone on this board attempt to blame everyone but the socialists who run VZ for what’s going on there.



First it was sanctions to blame that didn’t actually exist. Then Bush waging a “coup” against Chavez or something. And then corporations stealing from VZ oil despite the VZ government having total control over their oil.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Yes, nobody has denied that. I am simply saying all their problems aren't just because of socialism. There are other factors at play.

Yes, factors like idiots trying to centrally plan an economy and utterly failing to do so.

 

[Cubs79]

I never thought I’d see someone on this board attempt to blame everyone but the socialists who run VZ for what’s going on there.



First it was sanctions to blame that didn’t actually exist. Then Bush waging a “coup” against Chavez or something. And then corporations stealing from VZ oil despite the VZ government having total control over their oil.

There was a coup attempt against a Chavez, and there is plenty of speculation, that the US was involved. There is no question the US knew about it before hand and made no effort to stop it at the very least. And I don't know why you think that is crazy, it is essentially the exact situation going on now, and we certainly have a history of overthrowing leaders that we don't like.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/21/usa.Venezuela
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/...how-cia-knew-of-a-coup-plot-in-venezuela.html

Oil was nationalized in Venezuela in the 70s to keep profits in Venezuela. Before that, they did not have total control of their oil. Exxon, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, etc all operated in Venezuela prior to 1976 and of lot of the profits obviously left the country.

 

[UCFKnight85]

There was a coup against a Chavez, and there is plenty of speculation, that the US was involved. There is no question the US knew about it before hand and made no effort to stop it at the very least. And I don't know why you think that is crazy, it is essentially the exact situation going on now, and we certainly have a history of overthrowing leaders that we don't like.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/21/usa.Venezuela
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/03/...how-cia-knew-of-a-coup-plot-in-venezuela.html

Oil was nationalized in Venezuela in the 70s to keep profits in Venezuela. Before that, they did not have total control of their oil. Exxon, Chevron, ConocoPhillips, etc all operated in Venezuela prior to 1976 and of lot of the profits obviously left the country.

So you’re blaming current problems on the fact that in 1976 they had a market economy and sold oil to foreign companies?

It’s a good thing nothing has happened since 1976 I guess so we can blame everyone but the socialists running the place for reducing the country to chaos, poverty, and violence

 

[Cubs79]

So you’re blaming current problems on the fact that in 1976 they had a market economy and sold oil to foreign companies?

It’s a good thing nothing has happened since 1976 I guess so we can blame everyone but the socialists running the place for reducing the country to chaos, poverty, and violence

Huh? Where did I blame anything on 1976? I am point out why they nationalized their oil. I didn't indicate any sort of blame or success to the nationalization. I am pointing out that all the people yelling "socialism" wont acknowledge that it was global capitalism that was initially taking profits out of the country, which is why it was nationalized in the first place, and also a big reason that the outside world is always so interested in Venezuela. They want to be able to profit off their oil.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/new...on-leaders-us-envoy-says/ar-BBTcweq?li=AA54rU

You think it's just a coincidence that the US (and other countries) are so interested in this guy becoming the leader in Venezuela?

 

[UCFKnight85]

Talk about destroying your own narrative

 

[UCFKnight85]

Huh? Where did I blame anything on 1976? I am point out why they nationalized their oil. I didn't indicate any sort of blame or success to the nationalization. I am pointing out that all the people yelling "socialism" wont acknowledge that it was global capitalism that was initially taking profits out of the country, which is why it was nationalized in the first place, and also a big reason that the outside world is always so interested in Venezuela. They want to be able to profit off their oil.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/new...on-leaders-us-envoy-says/ar-BBTcweq?li=AA54rU

You think it's just a coincidence that the US (and other countries) are so interested in this guy becoming the leader in Venezuela?

Ummmm better question: why is it that the only countries in the world standing behind Maduro are totalitarian crapholes run by thug socialists and communists in countries where actual democracy does not exist?

 

[Husk in butt]

Typical socialist mess. They would steal private assets until nobody wanted to do business. Now they can't steal anything else.

Bernie template! The ruling class will always do fine though.

 

[Cubs79]

Ummmm better question: why is it that the only countries in the world standing behind Maduro are totalitarian crapholes run by thug socialists and communists in countries where actual democracy does not exist?

Well he was the elected leader, so they are actually backing the guy who was elected. I am sure they have their interests as well, but it doesn't change the fact they guy they back is the person who was elected. We are the one's trying to remove him. And no, there is no indication the election was rigged. One side decided to boycott, which certainly makes it hard to win an election, but that was their choice. Maduro, like it or not, was the person elected.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ins-boycotted-elections-amid-charges-of-fraud

 

[UCFKnight85]

Well he was the elected leader, so they are actually backing the guy who was elected. I am sure they have their interests as well, but it doesn't change the fact they guy they back is the person who was elected. We are the one's trying to remove him. And no, there is no indication the election was rigged. One side decided to boycott, which certainly makes it hard to win an election, but that was their choice. Maduro, like it or not, was the person elected.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ins-boycotted-elections-amid-charges-of-fraud

Now you’re defending the validity of the election in VZ? Holy shit. Do you also think Russian elections are free and fair?

Are you by chance related to Maduro?

 

[btbones]

So according to NBC news Maduro was ready to flee to Cuba but Russia told him to stay put . Pompeo was their source .

 

[UCFBS]

Just remember, debt is why this happens. We're not that far off, although the Progressives want to accelerate it even worse than Trump or Obama before him.

 

[Cubs79]

Now you’re defending the validity of the election in VZ? Holy shit. Do you also think Russian elections are free and fair?

Are you by chance related to Maduro?

We arent talking about Russia. While there was certainly controversy leading up to the elections, the reality is that many people opposed to Maduro didnt bother to vote, and then claimed the election was rigged. Not participating doesnt make it rigged, it means people didnt participate.

And BTW, Juan Guaido, who will likely be the president if we have our way, didnt even run. Is it Democracy for foreign country to basicaly appoint a guy as president who didnt even run in the election? HIs current position is similar to the Speaker of the House. If Democrats just decided Pelosi was president, and someone like China (or whoever), decided to recognize her as the president, I think we would see that as a problem.

IT has nothing to do with liking Maduro. I simply dont see why it is our job to be involved in it what so ever, and, there is a lot of propaganda in regards to Venezuela supporting a coup. I am just saying maybe we don't need to just take our governments narrative of events at face value, as we do have a history of removing leaders in oil rich countries. And we do have a history of getting involved in Central and South America.

 

[UCFKnight85]

We arent talking about Russia. While there was certainly controversy leading up to the elections, the reality is that many people opposed to Maduro didnt bother to vote, and then claimed the election was rigged. Not participating doesnt make it rigged, it means people didnt participate.

And BTW, Juan Guaido, who will likely be the president if we have our way, didnt even run. Is it Democracy for foreign country to basicaly appoint a guy as president who didnt even run in the election? HIs current position is similar to the Speaker of the House. If Democrats just decided Pelosi was president, and someone like China (or whoever), decided to recognize her as the president, I think we would see that as a problem.

IT has nothing to do with liking Maduro. I simply dont see why it is our job to be involved in it what so ever, and, there is a lot of propaganda in regards to Venezuela supporting a coup. I am just saying maybe we don't need to just take our governments narrative of events at face value, as we do have a history of removing leaders in oil rich countries. And we do have a history of getting involved in Central and South America.

Dude, you’re defending a dictator thug who rigged the entire election and the entire government to assure that NO election could possibly be fair. That no election would ever yield a result beyond him being “elected.”

The 14 LATAM nations, Canada, the US, Europe, and Australia all declared that the election was a joke and don’t recognize the results.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...inion/venezuela-maduro-sham-election.amp.html

Your comparison to Pelosi just tells me that you either don’t remotely understand what actually has taken place in VZ, or you do and for some reason you’re going to bat for Maduro anyways. Maybe since protecting the idea of socialism is just good left wing politics in 2019 America.

 

[Cubs79]

Dude, you’re defending a dictator thug who rigged the entire election and the entire government to assure that NO election could possibly be fair. That no election would ever yield a result beyond him being “elected.”

The 14 LATAM nations, Canada, the US, Europe, and Australia all declared that the election was a joke and don’t recognize the results.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...inion/venezuela-maduro-sham-election.amp.html

Your comparison to Pelosi just tells me that you either don’t remotely understand what actually has taken place in VZ, or you do and for some reason you’re going to bat for Maduro anyways. Maybe since protecting the idea of socialism is just good left wing politics in 2019 America.

Again, I am not defending anyone. I am questioning our motives and I am questioning the propaganda behind it. And again, we have a history of putting people we want in power. Just look at Pinochet in Chilie who We backed a coup to install him into power, and he ended up killing, arresting, and torturing an estimated 40,000 of his own people. We dont get involved in these things actually caring about peoples freedom. We get involved to put people in power that are pro America. This is most certainly about oil. You can like Maduro, hate Maduro, or anywhere in between. That doesnt change the fact we are actively trying to install someone as their president who would be favorable to us, but was not elected by the people. That is no more Democratic than supporting Maduro.

https://www.apnews.com/2ded14659982426c9b2552827734be83

An article highlighting many instances of us pushing for, and in some cases causing regime change in Central and South America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

 

[sk8knight]

I’m sure Cubs79 thinks we unseated a duly elected Sadam Hussein as well.*

Serious question Cubs, are you from Chicago?

 

[Cubs79]

I’m sure Cubs79 thinks we unseated a duly elected Sadam Hussein as well.*

Serious question Cubs, are you from Chicago?

No, I am from Nashville. I am a Cubs fan, but honestly I just picked a simple user name years ago when I signed up on rivals.

And no, I dont think Saddam was elected, but interestingly enough, we did help install the Baath party, of which he was a prominent member.

 

[UCFKnight85]

Again, I am not defending anyone. I am questioning our motives and I am questioning the propaganda behind it. And again, we have a history of putting people we want in power. Just look at Pinochet in Chilie who We backed a coup to install him into power, and he ended up killing, arresting, and torturing an estimated 40,000 of his own people. We dont get involved in these things actually caring about peoples freedom. We get involved to put people in power that are pro America. This is most certainly about oil. You can like Maduro, hate Maduro, or anywhere in between. That doesnt change the fact we are actively trying to install someone as their president who would be favorable to us, but was not elected by the people. That is no more Democratic than supporting Maduro.

https://www.apnews.com/2ded14659982426c9b2552827734be83

An article highlighting many instances of us pushing for, and in some cases causing regime change in Central and South America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

Again, you don’t seem to know what’s going on. Gauido is the President of the ONLY body of government in VZ that was actually elected by free and fair elections by the people. He is therefore the only legitimate President since Maduro is merely a thug who rigged a fake election and declared himself winner.

Gaudio is not being “installed” by the US. This isn’t the 1980s anymore so you can stop pretending like it’s 1984 all over again. Most every country in South America agrees with the US, Canada, Europe and 50 other democracies who recognize him as the only legitimate leader in VZ.

 

[sk8knight]

No, I am from Nashville. I am a Cubs fan, but honestly I just picked a simple user name years ago when I signed up on rivals.

And no, I dont think Saddam was elected, but interestingly enough, we did help install the Baath party, of which he was a prominent member.

That we did. It was a tongue in cheek remark, hence the asterisk.

Was just interested because I’m from the South Side, so I was wondering if you were from close by. No luck though.

 

[Cubs79]

Again, you don’t seem to know what’s going on. Gauido is the President of the ONLY body of government in VZ that was actually elected by free and fair elections by the people. He is therefore the only legitimate President since Maduro is merely a thug who rigged a fake election and declared himself winner.

Gaudio is not being “installed” by the US. This isn’t the 1980s anymore so you can stop pretending like it’s 1984 all over again. Most every country in South America agrees with the US, Canada, Europe and 50 other democracies who recognize him as the only legitimate leader in VZ.

But it isnt those countries jobs to determine who the president of Venezuela is. He also didnt win a national election. Only 97,000 people in a country of over 30 million, people voted for him in 2015 (his only election) and since then he has simply been appointed by his own party to other positions. Yes he was elected, but not in a national vote. If we were actually interested in Democracy, we would push for a new election and provide assistance in making sure it was a fair election.

And you say Maduro faked the election, but the opposition party decided to boycot it. YOu dont see why this is problematic? It also kind of shows they were basically just interested in taking power by declaring the elections as fraudulent, even though they decided they simply werent going to participate. There is certainly an argument that both sides of this ordeal done their share of wrong.

I dont have a problem with you not liking Maduro. MY problem is I dont think it is our issue to be involved with for one. And two, what is going on now, is also not Democratic. And of course we are installing him. Without our support he most likely would not be taking power. You might think it is justified, but that doesnt take away from the fact that we are aiding him and his party in taking control of Venezuela.

 

[Cubs79]

That we did. It was a tongue in cheek remark, hence the asterisk.

Was just interested because I’m from the South Side, so I was wondering if you were from close by. No luck though.

Nope. I love Chicago, go up there for a game most every year, but I am not from there.

 

[sk8knight]

But it isnt those countries jobs to determine who the president of Venezuela is. He also didnt win a national election. Only 97,000 people in a country of over 30 million, people voted for him in 2015 (his only election) and since then he has simply been appointed by his own party to other positions. Yes he was elected, but not in a national vote. If we were actually interested in Democracy, we would push for a new election and provide assistance in making sure it was a fair election.

And you say Maduro faked the election, but the opposition party decided to boycot it. YOu dont see why this is problematic? It also kind of shows they were basically just interested in taking power by declaring the elections as fraudulent, even though they decided they simply werent going to participate.

I dont have a problem with you not liking Maduro. MY problem is I dont think it is our issue to be involved with for one. And two, what is going on now, is also not Democratic. And of course we are installing him. Without our support he most likely would not be taking power. You might think it is justified, but that doesnt take away from the fact that we are aiding him and his party in taking control of Venezuela.

The days of US taking an isolationist role and not influencing the geopolitical scene are long gone. There is way too much globalism and way too many Americans with foreign interests. Not to mention that our immigration policies and legal precedents make it extremely attractive for anyone in the Americas to come here. We simply cannot support a mass migration of low and unskilled people from a country such as Venezuela.

Especially from Venezuela, a country with ample resources to be not just self-sufficient but prosperous. The government is the reason Venezuela is suffering pure and simple. Couple that with the humanitarian crisis and the call for us to do something to solve their problems and we had to do something.

I would prefer that we didn’t have to but you also have to face reality. We can’t unring the bell.

 

[Cubs79]

The days of US taking an isolationist role and not influencing the geopolitical scene are long gone. There is way too much globalism and way too many Americans with foreign interests. Not to mention that our immigration policies and legal precedents make it extremely attractive for anyone in the Americas to come here. We simply cannot support a mass migration of low and unskilled people from a country such as Venezuela.

Especially from Venezuela, a country with ample resources to be not just self-sufficient but prosperous. The government is the reason Venezuela is suffering pure and simple. Couple that with the humanitarian crisis and the call for us to do something to solve their problems and we had to do something.

I would prefer that we didn’t have to but you also have to face reality. We can’t unring the bell.

This is a fair argument, but I also think we get involved in situations way to often that dont end up well. And also keep in mind, there are plenty of Maduro supporters in Venezuela. I think the narrative we are mostly presented is that the entire country hates Maduro and wants him gone, and while his approval rating is low, he does have supporters. And most Venezuelans, even people who want him gone, do not support foreign internvention. So even if he is removed, you will see lots of civilians who think the new president is illegitimate since he wasnt elected. This gets back to what I was saying earlier, in that these types of things are complicated and we have a tendency to over simplify things and just think we can go in and make everything better.

 

[sk8knight]

This is a fair argument, but I also think we get involved in situations way to often that dont end up well. And also keep in mind, there are plenty of Maduro supporters in Venezuela. I think the narrative we are mostly presented is that the entire country hates Maduro and wants him gone, and while his approval rating is low, he does have supporters. And most Venezuelans, even people who want him gone, do not support foreign internvention. So even if he is removed, you will see lots of civilians who think the new president is illegitimate since he wasnt elected. This gets back to what I was saying earlier, in that these types of things are complicated and we have a tendency to over simplify things and just think we can go in and make everything better.

I can agree with your premise here but there are many factors in play. A large problem that we have is not truly understanding foreign cultures and instead projecting our values and cultural tendencies on them when we make policies. The same holds for the general public when we evaluate what our leaders are doing with foreign countries. Then there’s always the fact that none of us know the real story because much of it is classified.

I can tell you that I’ve worked with some very good foreign relations people and been impressed with many of the experts. None of them have ever appeared on Fox News, CNN, or MSNBC. The people that end up on the air are largely out of touch, out of their depth, idiots, or just plain partisan and misrepresenting. It makes it tough to know what is actually going on and if our strategies are working or not. I’ve also been in theater and seen reality and then come home and seen the coverage and the coverage couldn’t have misrepresented the reality more if they tried.

So at least we’ve got that going for us.

 

[Cubs79]

I can agree with your premise here but there are many factors in play. A large problem that we have is not truly understanding foreign cultures and instead projecting our values and cultural tendencies on them when we make policies. The same holds for the general public when we evaluate what our leaders are doing with foreign countries. Then there’s always the fact that none of us know the real story because much of it is classified.

I can tell you that I’ve worked with some very good foreign relations people and been impressed with many of the experts. None of them have ever appeared on Fox News, CNN, or MSNBC. The people that end up on the air are largely out of touch, out of their depth, idiots, or just plain partisan and misrepresenting. It makes it tough to know what is actually going on and if our strategies are working or not. I’ve also been in theater and seen reality and then come home and seen the coverage and the coverage couldn’t have misrepresented the reality more if they tried.

So at least we’ve got that going for us.

I think the coverage of this has been awful. We are basically getting one side, even from the "liberal networks". We mostly see opposition protests, but there have also been pro Maduro marches and protests as well. IMO, the solution is to have new elections. Putting in a president who wasnt elected and is backed by foreign powers doesnt seem to be the best solution to unite a country and to try and bring stability. But at this point, that is likely what will happen, so we will just have to see how it plays out.

ANd I agree that the people on the cable networks typically arent very good, especially when discussing foreign policy. Those networks operate off the need for ratings more so than actual good reporting, and often times ratings and good reporting dont go hand in hand.

Jake Tapper, who I honestly think is the best of the cable hosts (though certainly not perfect by any stretch) even tweeted a picture of soldiers in Caracas saying they were firing on civilians in support of Maduro. Except, they are wearing blue arm bands, which symbolises they are against Maduro, and Guaido even made a statement saying "People of Venezuela, we will go to the street with the armed forces to continue taking the streets until we consolidate the end of usurpation, which is already irreversible.” This type of reporting drives a narrative isnt true. Guaido also has armed forces so all of the violence is not one sided, but that isnt how it is being presented in our media.

 

[1ofTheseKnights]

Chaos = cash; all wars are bankers wars.

 

[Crazyhole]

For all of the talk about how venezuala nationalized the oil industry because the profits were going to foreign countries, I'm surprised that nobody brought up the fact that a domestic Venezuelan company could have just as easily been granted the contracts for oil extraction. It didnt have to be one extreme or the other.

 

[fabknight]

And BTW, Juan Guaido, who will likely be the president if we have our way, didnt even run. Is it Democracy for foreign country to basicaly appoint a guy as president who didnt even run in the election?

I think you have some incomplete info. Mr. Guaido would be interim president. He would hold that position until the gov't/country could be stabilized enough to where fair elections, with oversight of course, could be run.

 

[UCFKnight85]

I think you have some incomplete info. Mr. Guaido would be interim president. He would hold that position until the gov't/country could be stabilized enough to where fair elections, with oversight of course, could be run.

This guy has been arguing for an entire day with facts that don’t exist or simply a lack of understanding of what is actually going on.

His weird desire to defend Maduro is odd

 

[UCFKnight85]

But it isnt those countries jobs to determine who the president of Venezuela is. He also didnt win a national election. Only 97,000 people in a country of over 30 million, people voted for him in 2015 (his only election) and since then he has simply been appointed by his own party to other positions. Yes he was elected, but not in a national vote. If we were actually interested in Democracy, we would push for a new election and provide assistance in making sure it was a fair election.

And you say Maduro faked the election, but the opposition party decided to boycot it. YOu dont see why this is problematic? It also kind of shows they were basically just interested in taking power by declaring the elections as fraudulent, even though they decided they simply werent going to participate. There is certainly an argument that both sides of this ordeal done their share of wrong.

I dont have a problem with you not liking Maduro. MY problem is I dont think it is our issue to be involved with for one. And two, what is going on now, is also not Democratic. And of course we are installing him. Without our support he most likely would not be taking power. You might think it is justified, but that doesnt take away from the fact that we are aiding him and his party in taking control of Venezuela.

For the 10th time, you really don't seem to understand what Maudro and the Socialists have done in VZ. You keep talking about an "election" as if a real election took place. It didn't. Even suggesting that the 2018 election was remotely legit is insane. There is only ONE body of government in VZ that has an actual REAL vote of the people behind it, and it is the Legislature that Gaudio is head of which makes him the ONLY truly elected leader of VZ. Period.

When Maduro's party lost this Legislature, he literally stripped it of all of its' Constitutional powers and created a new Assembly that he stacked with unelected cronies from his own party. Do you not see the issue here?????

From NPR:

The last free elections in Venezuela were held in December 2015. Opposition parties won the Venezuelan legislature in a landslide, securing a super-majority that gave them unprecedented strength to check Maduro.

His ruling United Socialist Party responded by progressively stripping the legislature of its powers and ensuring the Socialists would not lose another election.

First, the government-run national electoral agency canceled a proposed presidential recall vote in 2016. Then, in July 2017, the Socialist Party called an unconstitutional vote to elect an alternative legislature. Later that year, party officials openly committed fraud in regional elections.

When Maduro stood for re-election in 2018, Socialist Party officials disqualified leading opposition politicians and parties from running and forced the vote seven months early to prevent them from reorganizing.

Many Venezuelans fought for their democracy.